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#1 Posted by brainiac 1.0 (4150 posts) - - Show Bio
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vs

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Who wins and why
#2 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - - Show Bio

black bolt whispers, iceman is in 100000 pieces.  curbstomp.

#3 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"black bolt whispers, iceman is in 100000 pieces.  curbstomp.
"
And then Iceman pulls himself together.
Moderator
#4 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"the human Juggernaut said:
"black bolt whispers, iceman is in 100000 pieces.  curbstomp.
"
And then Iceman pulls himself together.
"
then blackbolt whispers a bit louder, vaporizing iceman.

#5 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"Gambler said:
"the human Juggernaut said:
"black bolt whispers, iceman is in 100000 pieces.  curbstomp.
"
And then Iceman pulls himself together.
"
then blackbolt whispers a bit louder, vaporizing iceman.

"
Then iceman reforms again. Iceman wins this eventually.
#6 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - - Show Bio

you can't reform from nothing.

#7 Posted by Vrakmul (23407 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"you can't reform from nothing.
"
Iceman can reform as long as there is enough water particles around him to make another body. 
#8 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"you can't reform from nothing.
"
Iceman can survive as a gas. His mind would go to the water vapors in the air and he could reform from it.
#9 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman would win this fight. Even though Black Bolt can blast Iceman into pieces he could easily reform himself and use his Ice attacks to take down Black Bolt.

#10 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"you can't reform from nothing.
"
Agreed. But first, you said 100000 pieces, so, thats something correct? Second, Iceman can pull moisture outta the air  and reform from nothing. As Nobody stated above.
Moderator
#11 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman would eventually win this fight... And, I don't think the Quasi-Sonic scream would ultimately take out Iceman for good...

#12 Posted by Vrakmul (23407 posts) - - Show Bio

in order to kill iceman off for good, you would have to bring him to a place lacking in water completely such as venus or The Sun.  And I don't think black bolt can carry the fight over there.

#13 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - - Show Bio
Dreadnaught said:
"in order to kill iceman off for good, you would have to bring him to a place lacking in water completely such as venus or The Sun.  And I don't think black bolt can carry the fight over there.
"
how about right outside attilan?
#14 Posted by Vrakmul (23407 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"Dreadnaught said:
"in order to kill iceman off for good, you would have to bring him to a place lacking in water completely such as venus or The Sun.  And I don't think black bolt can carry the fight over there.
"
how about right outside attilan?
"
How much vapor is in the air there? 
#15 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio
the human Juggernaut said:
"Dreadnaught said:
"in order to kill iceman off for good, you would have to bring him to a place lacking in water completely such as venus or The Sun.  And I don't think black bolt can carry the fight over there.
"
how about right outside attilan?
"
Black Bolt himself is mostly water.
Moderator
#16 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Buckshot said:
"the human Juggernaut said:
"Dreadnaught said:
"in order to kill iceman off for good, you would have to bring him to a place lacking in water completely such as venus or The Sun.  And I don't think black bolt can carry the fight over there.
"
how about right outside attilan?
"
Black Bolt himself is mostly water.
"
And that makes Black Bolt SOL in this fight
#17 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio

You get a plus for that one lol

Moderator
#18 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL.

#19 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"You get a plus for that one lol
"

What are the plus for?
#20 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Gambler said:
"You get a plus for that one lol
"

What are the plus for?"
Good posts, and the minus' are for foolish ones.
Moderator
#21 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"Nobody said:
"Gambler said:
"You get a plus for that one lol
"

What are the plus for?"
Good posts, and the minus' are for foolish ones.
"
Do they do anything though?
#22 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

All of Human Juggernaut's posts are negative. LOL.

#23 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - - Show Bio

well i guess i  was mistaken.  iceman would win.

#24 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends on how you define your terms. If Black Bolt let loose and blasted Iceman to bits, it would take him a while to re-corporate. I'd call that a KO, and a win for Black Bolt. However, if Iceman strikes first, he can kill Black Bolt instantly.

#25 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
Static Shock said:
"All of Human Juggernaut's posts are negative. LOL.
"
LOL!
#26 Posted by Ball Buster (2041 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Blot can control and change molecules as well,as when he fought Mealstrom and Gravitron.  Which in turn can stop Iceman cold. Besides what has been mentioned. Although I guess Iceman power has changed since last time read up on him.

#27 Posted by HellionVulcan (3715 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman would end up winning

#28 Posted by Villinova (75 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know, I've noticed that in alot of the battle forums the 'posters' if you will, that to win you have to kill your opponent. Now honestly I don't think this should be the case, and I think that if the person wants them to fight to the death it should say that in their first post. Plus seeing as alot of them are heroes, they won't necessarily kill their opponent. So with that said I'm going by knockout for this one, and Blackbolt says "Hi" to Iceman thus deflecting anything Iceman has going at him currently, and then knocks out iceman by shattering him or if not in ice form just knocks him out plan and simple.

#29 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree, Villinova. People often are at odds as to who will win because "win" is never defined in the original post.

#30 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio
Villinova said:
"I don't know, I've noticed that in alot of the battle forums the 'posters' if you will, that to win you have to kill your opponent. Now honestly I don't think this should be the case, and I think that if the person wants them to fight to the death it should say that in their first post. Plus seeing as alot of them are heroes, they won't necessarily kill their opponent. So with that said I'm going by knockout for this one, and Blackbolt says "Hi" to Iceman thus deflecting anything Iceman has going at him currently, and then knocks out iceman by shattering him or if not in ice form just knocks him out plan and simple.
"
You're saying they shouldn't kill because it's out of character for heroes, but then you suggest that Black Bolt use his voice when that's the last thing his character would do? Looks like you're trying to have it both ways. And assuming Black Bolt wants to talk but isn't trying to kill Bobby, does he know that being obliterated won't kill him? Is BB current on Iceman's powers? If he's not, then he wouldn't talk because he'd think that would kill Iceman and you said he wouldn't do that. Anyway, destroying Iceman's body wouldn't knock him out. Iceman has reformed from being shattered or otherwise separated from a physical form and nothing was ever said about him losing consciousness (probably because all he is without a body is consciousness and if he lost he could die). And while Bobby is a hero, he has killed before and in precisely the scenario that has been stated. His body was destroyed and he reformed from the liquids of someone else, killing them in the process. If BB shatters Iceman like you suggest, he might come back the same way, by using BB's own moisture. You may not have to kill to win, but if Iceman does kill, he wins, and it's possible for him to kill BB.
Moderator
#31 Edited by Villinova (75 posts) - - Show Bio
Buckshot said:
"Villinova said:
"I don't know, I've noticed that in alot of the battle forums the 'posters' if you will, that to win you have to kill your opponent. Now honestly I don't think this should be the case, and I think that if the person wants them to fight to the death it should say that in their first post. Plus seeing as alot of them are heroes, they won't necessarily kill their opponent. So with that said I'm going by knockout for this one, and Blackbolt says "Hi" to Iceman thus deflecting anything Iceman has going at him currently, and then knocks out iceman by shattering him or if not in ice form just knocks him out plan and simple.
"
You're saying they shouldn't kill because it's out of character for heroes, but then you suggest that Black Bolt use his voice when that's the last thing his character would do? Looks like you're trying to have it both ways. And assuming Black Bolt wants to talk but isn't trying to kill Bobby, does he know that being obliterated won't kill him? Is BB current on Iceman's powers? If he's not, then he wouldn't talk because he'd think that would kill Iceman and you said he wouldn't do that. Anyway, destroying Iceman's body wouldn't knock him out. Iceman has reformed from being shattered or otherwise separated from a physical form and nothing was ever said about him losing consciousness (probably because all he is without a body is consciousness and if he lost he could die). And while Bobby is a hero, he has killed before and in precisely the scenario that has been stated. His body was destroyed and he reformed from the liquids of someone else, killing them in the process. If BB shatters Iceman like you suggest, he might come back the same way, by using BB's own moisture. You may not have to kill to win, but if Iceman does kill, he wins, and it's possible for him to kill BB.
"
I didn't say they shouldn't I said they necessarily wouldn't, key word necessarily...So yeah they might kill and they might not, I'm just saying that in these fights I don't think that the kill should always dictate the win, and that a knockout or something similar should suffice. And seriously, it is a fight, they are gonna use there powers it's kinda the purpose of the thread whether they would normally or not. If you gonna be stupid like that though, and try to turn that on me, then this fight prolly wouldn't happen on a normal circumstance and therefore neither of them fight and neither of them win or lose. That's why I hate making a point on here because most people take what you say out of context and try to use it to be a dick. But anyway blackbolt...talks iceman in ice form shatters of vaporizes....blackbolt walks away while Bobby takes time to reform...blackbolt wins....in not in ice form human form gets knocked out...blackbolt wins...if blackbolt is stupid enough to stick around and let the moisture be sucked from him body he deserves to loose.

By the way I'm glad you agree Korg!

#32 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio
Villinova said:
"I didn't say they shouldn't I said they necessarily wouldn't, key word necessarily...So yeah they might kill and they might not, I'm just saying that in these fights I don't think that the kill should always dictate the win, and that a knockout or something similar should suffice. And seriously, it is a fight, they are gonna use there powers it's kinda the purpose of the thread whether they would normally or not. If you gonna be stupid like that though, and try to turn that on me, then this fight prolly wouldn't happen on a normal circumstance and therefore neither of them fight and neither of them win or lose. That's why I hate making a point on here because most people take what you say out of context and try to use it to be a dick. But anyway blackbolt...talks iceman in ice form shatters of vaporizes....blackbolt walks away while Bobby takes time to reform...blackbolt wins....in not in ice form human form gets knocked out...blackbolt wins...if blackbolt is stupid enough to stick around and let the moisture be sucked from him body he deserves to loose.

By the way I'm glad you agree Korg!

"
I don't think I'm taking anything out of context. Ignoring where you disagree with one part of it being out of character and yet go on to make another part of it out of character, you said it should be to a knockout because you don't think the heroes will/should kill, but then you have Black Bolt doing something that, unless he knows how Iceman's powers work (does he? most of the people who post don't even know) would only be done if he were prepared to kill Iceman. And again, say we follow what you said and Black Bolt uses that attack anyway, that still doesn't give Black Bolt the win. You said it was to a knockout, but destroying Iceman's body hasn't been shown to knock him out. If it's to a knockout and BB doesn't knock him out but leaves the fight, that's not a win. Also, you're talking as if it takes a great length of time for Iceman to reform, but it doesn't. And even if he doesn't fully reform, he can still use his powers without a body. So BB will not have knocked him out and Iceman will be able to attack him (and win via knock out or kill) without a body.
Moderator
#33 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot: The issue is whether or not it is strictly a fight to the death, or whether obliterating Iceman's corporeal form might count as a TKO or something similar. Are we to assume it's a fight to the death if no other terms are put forth? As I said before, this is often the cause of contention in threads like this (it is happening right now, in fact), where lethal force could be used, but a KO would suffice for a win. Just ask Vance about Deadpool's case. Deadpool can't really die. Therefor he'd never lose a fight on the vine. However if Batman is gonna fight Deadpool and it's to the death...well, it's a no-brainer. People need to start defining their terms better in battle topics to avoid this pointless back-and-forth about lethal force and character morality, etc.

#34 Posted by Villinova (75 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow I don't think I even need to talk anymore Korg basically summed up everything I would need to say on the subject...it's like he's taking all my thoughts and wording them better!!!

#35 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio
Korg said:
"Buckshot: The issue is whether or not it is strictly a fight to the death, or whether obliterating Iceman's corporeal form might count as a TKO or something similar. Are we to assume it's a fight to the death if no other terms are put forth? As I said before, this is often the cause of contention in threads like this (it is happening right now, in fact), where lethal force could be used, but a KO would suffice for a win. Just ask Vance about Deadpool's case. Deadpool can't really die. Therefor he'd never lose a fight on the vine. However if Batman is gonna fight Deadpool and it's to the death...well, it's a no-brainer. People need to start defining their terms better in battle topics to avoid this pointless back-and-forth about lethal force and character morality, etc."
Yes, I know that terms should be defined, I put that in the rules and have been saying that for a long time. I don't think that's the problem here though. I'm willing to look at the fight either to the death or to a knockout, but Villinova isn't stepping up. He's said that it doesn't need to be to the death but then suggests BB use an attack that would only be used if BB is fighting to the death (again, unless he knows Iceman's current powers). That doesn't make sense, but I continued with it anyway. If it's to a knockout, that attack still doesn't do anything because destroying Iceman's body doesn't knock him out. See what I'm saying? And from that point (after Iceman's body is all destroyed), Iceman can win if it's to a knockout (temporary brain freeze, lowering body temp till BB drops, freezing some of the air in his lungs so he can't breathe enough to stay awake, etc) or to the death (moisture removal, total freezing, freezing vital organs, etc), both of which he's shown that he's willing to try.
Moderator
#36 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you have any evidence of Bobby being immediately self-aware while incorporeal? Cause my memory's a bit hazy, but I don't think it's as easy for him to reform as you think. That time in the Draco arc he still had his head. If he exploded completely, his consciousness would be nebulous, and I don't think he'd have the strength necessary to simply sap Black Bolt like he did in the aforementioned incident.

#37 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you have any evidence of Bobby being unconscious after losing his body? There's nothing stated in any of the times he's been destroyed that suggests a loss of consciousness so I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions about his consciousness on. When he was destroyed in Northstar and Aurora's attack on the school he was back in a short amount of time (the fire was still raging, the twins were still in the room, Cannonball had left right as the attack started but hadn't reached anywhere yet, and overall it didn't seem like much time had passed based on the context) and was attacking as he rematerialized. When he was destroyed in X-Men Forever he was back and destroying sentinel's (he actually destroyed them as he reformed) after a few seconds (guess at time based on how much Cain did on his flying board between Bobby's destruction and reconstitution), in the X-Men story with the children of the ark he was back after a short conversation (he had been destroyed and absorbed by a fire guy that time) and killed the fire guy when as came back. And like you mentioned when he came back in the Draco arc he did it by killing a mutant. He's had the strength to attack and use his powers every time he's come back (these were the ones I could remember) and he was completely destroyed in 3 of these examples so I don't see why getting shattered here would stop him from coming back with an attack.

Moderator
#38 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Villinova said:
I didn't say they shouldn't I said they necessarily wouldn't, key word necessarily...So yeah they might kill and they might not, I'm just saying that in these fights I don't think that the kill should always dictate the win, and that a knockout or something similar should suffice. And seriously, it is a fight, they are gonna use there powers it's kinda the purpose of the thread whether they would normally or not. If you gonna be stupid like that though, and try to turn that on me, then this fight prolly wouldn't happen on a normal circumstance and therefore neither of them fight and neither of them win or lose. That's why I hate making a point on here because most people take what you say out of context and try to use it to be a dick. But anyway blackbolt...talks iceman in ice form shatters of vaporizes....blackbolt walks away while Bobby takes time to reform...blackbolt wins....in not in ice form human form gets knocked out...blackbolt wins...if blackbolt is stupid enough to stick around and let the moisture be sucked from him body he deserves to loose.

By the way I'm glad you agree Korg!

This doesn't make any sense, but whatever....
#39 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

So your feelings could be summed up by saying "Iceman can't die, he's a god"? Not that I disagree, you just got a bit hostile on the way to your point.


Afterthought: What if Iceman was removed from the battlefield by Black Bolt's scream?
#40 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
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Moderator
#41 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

He also passes out upon re-condensing, and is in a weakened state in the infirmary. He also apparently required CPR. If Mystique hadn't revived him, would he have died?

#42 Edited by lordraiden (7008 posts) - - Show Bio
Villinova said:
"I don't know, I've noticed that in alot of the battle forums the 'posters' if you will, that to win you have to kill your opponent. Now honestly I don't think this should be the case, and I think that if the person wants them to fight to the death it should say that in their first post. Plus seeing as alot of them are heroes, they won't necessarily kill their opponent. So with that said I'm going by knockout for this one, and Blackbolt says "Hi" to Iceman thus deflecting anything Iceman has going at him currently, and then knocks out iceman by shattering him or if not in ice form just knocks him out plan and simple.
"

One of the best and smartest responses i've read so far! Kudos to you, Villi

P.S. Don't give up so easy H.J.
#43 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"Villinova said:
"I don't know, I've noticed that in alot of the battle forums the 'posters' if you will, that to win you have to kill your opponent. Now honestly I don't think this should be the case, and I think that if the person wants them to fight to the death it should say that in their first post. Plus seeing as alot of them are heroes, they won't necessarily kill their opponent. So with that said I'm going by knockout for this one, and Blackbolt says "Hi" to Iceman thus deflecting anything Iceman has going at him currently, and then knocks out iceman by shattering him or if not in ice form just knocks him out plan and simple.
"

One of the best and smartest responses i've read so far! Kudos to you, Villi

P.S. Don't give up so easy H.J.
"
How is that a smart response when I posted a scan right below it showing Iceman Completely gone and yet not getting knocked out. And no one has yet to show any evidence that Iceman being shattered would knock him out.



Moderator
#44 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:

How is that a smart response when I posted a scan right below it showing Iceman Completely gone and yet not getting knocked out. And no one has yet to show any evidence that Iceman being shattered would knock him out.

Obviously, it's only smart to him because it's Black Bolt....
#45 Posted by Ball Buster (2041 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I see and understand since Iceman powers seem to have change.I still believe Black Bolt wins because of his control of molecules which he can use in this battle.He could possibly stop Bobby from reforming at all .I just do not see Iceman winning this fight.

#46 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
Ball Buster said:
"From what I see and understand since Iceman powers seem to have change.I still believe Black Bolt wins because of his control of molecules which he can use in this battle.He could possibly stop Bobby from reforming at all .I just do not see Iceman winning this fight."
Thats a possibility, but wouldn't he have to know Iceman can reform himself for him to use that tactic? Also, Iceman doesn't need to reform to be affective. He could survive as mist, vapor, theoretical he could survive and or harm Blackbolt using the water in his body.
Moderator
#47 Posted by warlock360 (28050 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"the human Juggernaut said:
"black bolt whispers, iceman is in 100000 pieces.  curbstomp.
"
And then Iceman pulls himself together.
"
still not able to put up a decent fight, Victor is Black Bolt
#48 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
Voidheart said:
"Gambler said:
"the human Juggernaut said:
"black bolt whispers, iceman is in 100000 pieces.  curbstomp.
"
And then Iceman pulls himself together.
"
still not able to put up a decent fight, Victor is Black Bolt
"
Bobby is Iceman. What are we talking about?
Moderator
#49 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
Ball Buster said:
"From what I see and understand since Iceman powers seem to have change.I still believe Black Bolt wins because of his control of molecules which he can use in this battle.He could possibly stop Bobby from reforming at all .I just do not see Iceman winning this fight."

There's a problem though. How could stop him from reforming when Iceman can survive in a gaseous form? And, I don't see a possible way for Black Bolt to stop him by controlling his molecules. Matter can't be destroyed, either way. But, can you give an example (or provide evidence) of Black Bolt's molecular control from a comic book, if you don't mind? I tried to find something, but failed... LOL.
#50 Edited by Ball Buster (2041 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"Ball Buster said:
"From what I see and understand since Iceman powers seem to have change.I still believe Black Bolt wins because of his control of molecules which he can use in this battle.He could possibly stop Bobby from reforming at all .I just do not see Iceman winning this fight."
Thats a possibility, but wouldn't he have to know Iceman can reform himself for him to use that tactic? Also, Iceman doesn't need to reform to be affective. He could survive as mist, vapor, theoretical he could survive and or harm Blackbolt using the water in his body.
"
Black  Bolt also has control over his own molecules in his body which allows him to argument his strength as well other abilities .Im not seeing it..Im trying to give Iceman a chance but its not there. Black Bolt simply outclasses Iceman.