Hydra vs. Cadmus

Hydra is lead by Red Skull, Cadmus is led by Amanda Waller. Pre-52 Cadmus/Waller, Skull does not have Prof. X's powers for this fight.

Both groups are wholly focused on destroying each other and no one else is allowed to intervene, example Cadmus can't bribe A.I.M. to attack Hydra in order to weaken them.

They each have 3 months to plan and prepare before the conflict begins, it ends when one of them is completely destroyed.

Both organizations at their normal levels, no super-weapons above what they are capable of building within the given 3 months. Each group has named agents included (barring people that may be on Herald level of power to make things fair), example Crossbones is a member of Hydra therefore he is involved.

Which organization comes out on top?

http://www.comicvine.com/hydra/4060-3480/

http://www.comicvine.com/project-cadmus/4060-47233/

@paragonnate:

Good thread. "Welcome to the 'Vine" @paragonnate! I think that Cadmus takes this in a very entertaining fight. Dubbilex and the DNAliens alone would prove to be an insurmountable challenge to Hydra.

@heraldofganthet:

hhhmmmm, I'm more of a Marvel fan than a DC fan so I wasn't aware Cadmus had those. Do you think they tip the scale to much in Cadmus' favor? After all Hydra has had some pretty wacky stuff as well. Also the link for the DNAliens doesn't say anything about them working for Cadmus although I may have just missed it. Was it a one time thing, are they a separate organization that works with Cadmus, or are they wholly controlled by Cadmus?

@paragonnate:

hhhmmmm, I'm more of a Marvel fan than a DC fan so I wasn't aware Cadmus had those.

Not a problem. They are a lot more obscure than say, Green Lantern for example.

Do you think they tip the scale to much in Cadmus' favor? After all Hydra has had some pretty wacky stuff as well. Also the link for the DNAliens doesn't say anything about them working for Cadmus although I may have just missed it.

Sorry about the links. Those are always 50/50. That said, Dubbilex is a strong Class 2 borderline Class 3 telepath/telekinetic who is superhumanly intelligent (despite his looks) like The Beast from the X-Men books. He can deal with any and all hydra agents who don't have psi-shielding and crush like a soda can/BFR those who do from a very safe distance. The DNAliens are plentiful and have a variety of nasty powers ranging from energy projections, super-strength, serious psionics (like Dubbilex and/or Bette Noir [who would wreak havoc here if unleashed]), etc... You mentioned Crossbones. A serious street leveler with legit h2h and weapon skills. But considering the fact that the Guardian has stats similar to Ultimate Captain America (with a decent healing factor as a bonus), I think that he gets taken in a good fight. Hydra's good, but they've got some work to do, IMO...

Was it a one time thing, are they a separate organization that works with Cadmus, or are they wholly controlled by Cadmus?

No, it's definitely a part of Cadmus full-time as just one of their living weapons projects going back to the Jack Kirby on pencils days. They (Cadmus) also built Superboy for goodness sakes. I purposely left him out of the equation because that would make it even more of a stomp.

@heraldofganthet:

Well sorry for the late response, just wondering in your opinion do the DNAliens make this fight to one sided in Cadmus' favor? I was considering limiting their personal to their higher end street level operatives as their max. Would the DNAliens be above that or would they still be counted? Also as much as I want to (and believe me I really really want to) as the op I am not allowing to debate for Hydra on this I just want to make this fight as fair and balances as possible.

Cadmus

@paragonnate:

Well sorry for the late response, just wondering in your opinion do the DNAliens make this fight to one sided in Cadmus' favor? I was considering limiting their personal to their higher end street level operatives as their max. Would the DNAliens be above that or would they still be counted? Also as much as I want to (and believe me I really really want to) as the op I am not allowing to debate for Hydra on this I just want to make this fight as fair and balances as possible.

I would probably need a Roll Call for Hydra to answer your question. As it stands, nearly 90+ percent of the DNAliens (not to mention all of the DNAngels) are WAYYYYY above street-level. I believe Guardian would qualify as street-level, though. Superboy definitely wouldn't. Amanda Spence is comfortably mid-tier with the skills and equipment to match. Anomaly's science-based "Absorbing Man"-like powers would give Hydra fits, by my estimation. And that's just for starters...

@heraldofganthet:

Would Superboy be considered part of Cadmus though? As in can Cadmus call him up and give him an order and he has to do it. Hydra has people like Crossbones (who I mentioned in the op), Gorgon, The Hive, Madame Hydra as well as others. Honestly I should have seen this coming give Cadmus often interacts with DC's higher end characters.

@paragonnate:

Would Superboy be considered part of Cadmus though? As in can Cadmus call him up and give him an order and he has to do it. Hydra has people like Crossbones (who I mentioned in the op), Gorgon, The Hive, Madame Hydra as well as others. Honestly I should have seen this coming give Cadmus often interacts with DC's higher end characters.

No, but Match certainly is and would be available on a moments notice. WAYYY above street-level. They also have an army of Guardian clones that all have low level superhuman attributes complete with healing factors (Guardian heals slower than Wolverine, probably around Green Goblin speed). One such clone named Adam had all of Guardian's physicals with a brain cloned from Dubbilex. Another named Auron was cybernetically enhanced and could only be damaged by people in Massacre's strength level.

Gorgon is a force to be reckoned with at the absolute upper limits of the street-level bracket, but even he would have trouble with dozens of Guardians and their shiny, nigh-invulnerable shields (they could reflect his stone stare back at him I think). His stats would be close to theirs as well. The Hive seems like a mini Starro, but if Adam is allowed to be used here he could telekinetically force those parasites onto his Hydra teammates and psi-blast the rest. Amanda Spence is another deal altogether. The DNAngels and the DNAliens almost seem too unfair to bring into the picture. I know that Bette Noir is, as she was giving Martian Manhunter just about all he could handle. Nobody on the Hydra side is prepared to even agitate her, let alone tick her off. Anomaly is also a serious problem, especially if he grabs Gorgon's magical sword. I shudder to think what he could do if every cell in his body was transformed into Grasscutter.

@heraldofganthet: Do you have scans fr Guardian? I'm kinda interested.

@cameron83:

Do you have scans fr Guardian? I'm kinda interested.

I don't unfortunately. I don't even own a scanner :( Maybe some old school Superman fans like @lvenger have a few, since he often appeared in Superman comics over the years.

Oh,it's okay :)

Guardian is a cool dude either way

@heraldofganthet:

In light of the information you provided I have decided to cap their members at the high end street level with neither side being able to make use of agents above that level. In an attempt to make this battle fair given Cadmus' exponentially more powerful members due to the fact that DC Earth regularly tangles with a greater number of Herald level beings than Marvel Earth.

@heraldofganthet:

I just realized that I already had that as a condition in the op. :/

@cameron83:

Oh,it's okay :)

Guardian is a cool dude either way

Agreed. Love that guy.

@paragonnate:

In light of the information you provided I have decided to cap their members at the high end street level with neither side being able to make use of agents above that level. In an attempt to make this battle fair given Cadmus' exponentially more powerful members given the fact that DC Earth regularly tangles with a greater number of Herald level beings more so than Marvel Earth.

Fair enough. I believe that while this does make things more fair, we've seen just how successfully 616 Captain America can tear his way through wave after wave of Hydra goons. And while Guardian isn't a Super-Soidier, he is instead a Super-Cop with stats that exceed the good Captain's with a healing factor thrown in for good measure. He's probably (to use a Marvel example) closer to William Burnside or perhaps Protocide in terms of his physicals. And they (Cadmus) has dozens of them ready to go on a moments notice. The argument could be made that Gorgon would eventually take Guardian in a great fight, but I don't see him taking 65 of them (each with a super durable, reflective shield that allows Guardian to fly, by the way). Adam (the second most powerful Guardian clone ever created) and/or Dubbilex can shut down the Hive's best strategy: possession via parasitic attachment. He/they can telekinetically prevent anyone on the Hydra team from even moving in the first place, leaving them as sitting ducks for all kinds of nastiness.

As the OP you've disqualified Match, most of the DNAliens, all of the DNAngels, and I think Amanda Spence too (although if Kraken is allowed, they would be good fight against each other). I doubt that Hydra has an answer for Anomaly either.

Still, if they ever did this fight as a crossover, I'd definitely buy it!

Hydra can never kill them off XD

Hydra, If you cut one head, two more will rise.

@black_arrow:

Hydra, If you cut one head, two more will rise.

Fair enough. But they have their hands full here. Even under the OP conditions.

@paragonnate, what do you think about my analysis thus far?

@heraldofganthet:

I agree with the higher up Cadmus operatives being to much given Hydra's lack of herald level operatives. However I am surprised that no one has mentioned either Red Skull or Amanda Waller given how different they are as leaders. Now that I have leveled the playing field so to speak I think that their leadership will be more of a deciding factor, plus the abilities and skills of their lieutenants and agents that fit withing the parameters.

@paragonnate:

I agree with the higher up Cadmus operatives being to much given Hydra's lack of herald level operatives. However I am surprised that no one has mentioned either Red Skull or Amanda Waller given how different they are as leaders. Now that I have leveled the playing field so to speak I think that their leadership will be more of a deciding factor, plus the abilities and skills of their lieutenants and agents that fir withing the parameters.

A glaring oversight on my part. Checkmate's White Queen is indeed a shrewd leader. Since she can't call upon her Knights to assist Cadmus, she probably can't use Checkmate's technological resources either... Either way, I would pay whatever price DC/Marvel want to charge to see a fight between Guardian (or Adam) and the Red Skull. That ALONE would be worth the price of admission, IMO. Amanda Spence has both bullet and energy based weapons and with her strength (Class 30-45) could easily serve as "crowd control" once the battle is joined.

Would Anomaly be sidelined due to OP conditions? That guy is a freak they'd have a lot of problems with. Especially if he grabs hold of Gorgon's sword... Not to mention Heat Wave's potential impact in this melee.

Fear the bison bump! Fear it!

@paragonnate:

I'm going to tag in a few specialists who can hopefully bring some valuable info to this battle:

@i_like_swords@progenitor@veshark @risingbean@wolverine08@monsterstomp

@patrat18@ancient_0f_days@kidman560@ghostravage

Maybe they can pick up on some details we've overlooked. What say you, gentlemen?

@patrat18:

How do you suppose Hydra survives this match-up, let alone prevail?!?

@heraldofganthet: By growing two more heads.

@patrat18:

By growing two more heads.

LOL! I love ya, man! Answers like this are why I "Follow" you in the first place! No sarcasm at all, that was brilliant!

From an operational standpoint (and under the OP conditions) however, I don't see how Hydra matches up blow for blow with the army that Cadmus brings to the table.

Even when the OP conditions demand that Cadmus leave their real headbusters at home, over 5 dozen Guardians is nothing to play with considering that they all have stats roughly equivalent to Ulti-Cap and/or William Burnside. 60 of 'em. Or maybe more. That's gangsta as hell since we've seen how 616 Captain America just mows down Hydra agents in wave after wave of them trying to take him out. Guardian's stats are superior to Cap's and (with his shield) can fly at high sub-sonic speeds. Not to mention a moderate healing factor.

Cadmus, even with their street-levelers and their mid-tiers present a CONSIDERABLE challenge to Red Skull and his crew, IMO...

@heraldofganthet:

Beginning to wonder if I should give Johann Xavier's powers here, however I would like to point out that Hydra is notoriously difficult to stomp out even for Marvel's heroes. Added to the mix is Red Skull, who is willing to sink to any depth of villainy to achieve victory (if he hasn't built a summer home there already). Torture, experimentation on prisoners, mass murder on a national scale, ethnic cleansing, Hydra and its agents have committed these and similar crimes without a second thought. I know I'm the op and really shouldn't get overly involved in the debate however, I feel that even if Hydra doesn't win this Cadmus will be in very bad shape afterword, and I do believe Hydra can win this for a majority just not easily. However I won't really say more on the matter, I'll attempt to compile a list of Hydra agents that I haven't yet mentioned in order to bring them into the debate and hopefully level the field a little more.

@paragonnate:

Beginning to wonder if I should give Johann Xavier's powers here,

Your thread, your call...

however I would like to point out that Hydra is notoriously difficult to stomp out even for Marvel's heroes. Added to the mix is Red Skull, who is willing to sink to any depth of villainy to achieve victory (if he hasn't built a summer home there already). Torture, experimentation on prisoners, mass murder on a national scale, ethnic cleansing, Hydra and its agents have committed these and similar crimes without a second thought. I know I'm the op and really shouldn't get overly involved in the debate however, I feel that even if Hydra doesn't win this Cadmus will be in very bad shape afterword, and I do believe Hydra can win this for a majority just not easily. However I won't really say more on the matter, I'll attempt to compile a list of Hydra agents that I haven't yet mentioned in order to bring them into the debate and hopefully level the field a little more.

This will be helpful. It's always good to get a head count for these types of things. That said, Amanda Waller isn't exactly known for her cute and cuddly leadership style. After all, they don't call Task Force X the "Suicide Squad" for nothing. Leading the resources of Cadmus, (independent of her Checkmate resources, of course) she'd be in charge of a formidable force. Hydra's a threat, but I think they lose here. How badly will probably depend upon your upcoming Roll Call.

We look forward to seeing it!;)

Hydra

@heraldofganthet: Damn, and i was just joking. I have limited knowledge on both, thus the sarcasm. I had know idea how powerful Guardian is.

@patrat18:

Damn, and i was just joking. I have limited knowledge on both, thus the sarcasm. I had know idea how powerful Guardian is.

It's all good. He doesn't get the press that he should IMO, but dude can scrap and he's pretty durable. Imagine 40-65 Ultimate Captain Americas just running wild in this scenario. Now further imagine one of them with a cloned version of Psylocke's brain (for example). For starters.

Hydra's good, but they've got some work to do...

MAD (mutually assured destruction, not the Dr. Claw's evil organisation from Inspector Gadget). Cadmus wins head to head, but they kill Baron Wolfgang von Strucker in the process (either that or he ends his own life in a kamikaze attack against them towards the end of the conflict, once the writing is on the wall), releasing the Death Spore viruses from his body and killing off the entire world's population along with him.

@sundeep:

MAD (mutually assured destruction, not the Dr. Claw's evil organisation from Inspector Gadget). Cadmus wins head to head, but they kill Baron Wolfgang von Strucker in the process (either that or he ends his own life in a kamikaze attack against them towards the end of the conflict, once the writing is on the wall), releasing the Death Spore viruses from his body and killing off the entire world's population along with him.

"Welcome to the 'Vine" @sundeep! You've got an analytical mind that will serve you well here. I hope you enjoy the experience! As to this particular (underlined) detail, I would have to believe the team leader Amanda Waller (as the White Queen of Checkmate) would probably have as much intel on Von Strucker as SHIELD would. Including the nastiness those Spores are capable of. She would definitely inform her team of the danger his Spores represent, and that Von Strucker is to be captured and not killed. Dubbilex and/or Adam could immobilize him from a distance telekinetically which would either:

1. Allow him to be placed in Cadmus (or Checkmate) custody, removing the threat of his spores from the equation. Or...
2. Prevent him from committing suicide by freezing his entire body in place, allowing him to be taken without incident.

But I've gotta hand it to you, mon ami. That was some serious outside the box thinking on your part. I like that!;)

Red Skull isn't really affiliated with Hydra, despite what the movies say.

@omgomgwtfwtf:

Red Skull isn't really affiliated with Hydra, despite what the movies say.

Fair enough. But Hydra needs all the help they can get, by my estimation...

@heraldofganthet:

The problem with Red Skull is that he's not a team player at all. He regularly betrays the people he works with and because of that nobody trusts him.

@omgomgwtfwtf:

The problem with Red Skull is that he's not a team player at all. He regularly betrays the people he works with and because of that nobody trusts him.

This is a phenomenally crucial detail. If he puts Hydra personnel/resources in purposeful harm's way, then it's not completely out of the question for Hydra's leaders to "chastise" him in their own special way for throwing away what could be valuable resources they could use to make this fight a horse race.

@the_titan_lord: @legacy6364: @vrakmul:

Hail Hydra, eh gentlemen? Tell me how you think they'll win. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

I just wanted to post that meme.

@legacy6364:

I just wanted to post that meme.

Ahh... Any meme-free thoughts on the battle thus far?

@pokeysteve, @god_spawn, @super_soldierxii, @pr0metheus, & @darkseid1006? What do guys you think?

I don't really know anything about Hydra but Cadmus has some pretty powerful telepaths as mentioned and I believe they have superior resources since they're backed by the government (I think).

@heraldofganthet

Sorry it took me so long to respond here, RL stuff. *shrugs*

Here's a list of people I know are in Hydra.

• Crossbones
• Gorgon
• The Hive
• Madame Hydra
• Baron von Strucker
• Bob (lol)
• Codename: Bravo

These are people I'm somewhat iffy on but decided to list them anyway just in case.

• Master Man
• Red Skull
• Sin

In terms of members I know there are more I just threw this together real fast I'll add more later though. One thing I'd like to mention however is the three months prep both sides have here, Hydra has cranked some pretty nasty stuff in the past. Having recently re-read Immortal Iron Fist it shows Hydra deploying a massive robot that beats Iron Fist so bad they left him for dead early in the series. I also would like to mention while Red Skulls connection to Hydra might have become somewhat iffy recently he definitely still has some measure of power in the organization, seeing as he was in charge during the Winter Soldier story-line and Sin 'inherited' leadership of it after he was gone.

@pokeysteve:

I don't really know anything about Hydra but Cadmus has some pretty powerful telepaths as mentioned and I believe they have superior resources since they're backed by the government (I think).

As a private sector company, they are largely self-funded, but there have been several occasions where government funding was utilized for anti-metahuman countermeasures (i.e. the DNAliens and the DNAngels, specifically). Thanks for checking in!

@paragonnate:

Sorry it took me so long to respond here, RL stuff. *shrugs*

Here's a list of people I know are in Hydra.

• Crossbones
• Gorgon
• The Hive
• Madame Hydra
• Baron von Strucker
• Bob (lol)
• Codename: Bravo

These are people I'm somewhat iffy on but decided to list them anyway just in case.

• Master Man
• Red Skull
• Sin

In terms of members I know there are more I just threw this together real fast I'll add more later though. One thing I'd like to mention however is the three months prep both sides have here, Hydra has cranked some pretty nasty stuff in the past.

Having recently re-read Immortal Iron Fist it shows Hydra deploying a massive robot that beats Iron Fist so bad they left him for dead early in the series.

I also would like to mention while Red Skulls connection to Hydra might have become somewhat iffy recently he definitely still has some measure of power in the organization, seeing as he was in charge during the Winter Soldier story-line and Sin 'inherited' leadership of it after he was gone.

1. RL? You work at Ralph Lauren? Yeah, son. Free cologne for life!
2. LOL indeed! He'd last exactly 2 seconds in this melee (unless he found a seriously durable wall to hide behind)!
3. You're exactly right, and three months prep is a lot of time for either/both of these groups to bring out the extra nasty. By contrast, 3 months is enough time for Cadmus to create perhaps several hundred (or perhaps even thousands) of Guardians as opposed to the 4-5 dozen they normally keep on ice in reserve. That is a formidable army by itself, considering their physical stats individually.
4. That robot sounds impressive, considering the ridiculous power creep Iron Fist has gotten lately. How do you suppose it would fare against dozens and dozens of Guardians all going ape-s**t on it simultaneously (I ask because I haven't seen the robot, and have no idea of it's total offensive/defensive capabilities)?
5. Red Skull is indeed a wildcard here, and if Sin (with her hammer at least), or if Bravo and Master Man are allowed, then I've got to call in at least the DNAngels (minus Cherub who would effortlessly solo this thing) or Match off of the bench. Master Man is easily the strongest Hydra member here. Leagues stronger than even several Guardians. If the DNAliens and their cousins the DNAngels are still off limits, then Dubbilex and/or Adam would probably be necessary to deal with the sheer strength and durability a Class 50+'er would bring to the table telepathically/telekinetically. Maybe Anomaly would be able to match Master Man blow for blow if he could grab him...