Hush / Bane vs. Moon Knight / Shang-Chi

Hush / Bane (Pre-52, off venom)

vs.

Moon Knight (Vengeance of gear) / Shang-Chi

Location:

The Museum of Natural History's lobby. Unpopulated. Begin at opposite sides.

Rules:

• Standard gear.
• In character.
• Standard elimination rules apply.

What has hush done?

He survived a confrontation with Alfred.

People enjoy downplaying him when Alfred got the jump on him. I just realized he has a respect thread on CV. Not sure how detailed it is, but here you go:

http://www.comicvine.com/hush/4005-9588/forums/hush-respect-thread-22108/

The way I see it,Bane either solos or the Marvel team snatches out the victory.

Hush is a non-factor.He has got curbstomped by Alfred,Catwoman,Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne.

Hush never lost to Alfred. Butler Bravest went down on the next page.

That said, I personally feel Hush's feats after the story that introduced him never matched up to that climactic fight with Batman.

Hush used some shuriken/batarang things to take him down.

Pure h2h Hush would have lost.

Based on what, the fact that Alfred hit him twice when he wasn't expecting it and then pointed a gun at him?

@citizenbane: Hush realized he couldn't beat him straight up h2h.

He had the chance to get up and fight and Alfred backed for a second.Anyway,I don't think Hush is like above Alfred level in h2h.What feats does he have?

The only thing I have seen him doing is stalemating Batman and beating Joker(if I am correct).

Agreed, though I thought it was impressive how he was able to briefly hold his own against Tim and Dick.

Your H2H options are a tad limited when you're on the floor and there's a gun inches away from your head. Hush has also fought Bruce, Dick and Tim simultaneously, if unsuccessfully.

You mention Hush stalemating Batman and beating Joker in the same breath that you claim Hush isn't above Alfred's level of H2H competency. I.....don't understand....

@citizenbane:Pure PIS.Dick and Bruce have soloed him.And Tim would certainly solo as well.

Beating Joker isn't such an accomplishment.Joker is a mediocre fighter at best.His biggest feat is beating Luthor.

He has no feats to suggest he is much above Alfred too.

Stalemating Batman is a bit doubtfull.Batman was clearly holding back,even though he had the upper hand until Hush shot some explosives and managed to nearly K.O. him.He was trying to gather some answers.After all,it was written by Loeb and it's purpose was to introduce Hush to the public so he had to make him look more badass.

Since many seem to base their opinion on one scan, I'll provide the whole scene. And since it's not exactly flattering for those simply glancing at images and ignoring dialogue/context, I'll also post's Hush brief fight with Tim / Dick.

@k4tzm4n: There is no doubt that any member of the Bat-family would stomp Hush.

Even Catwoman humiliated him and Dick has beat him once when he was Batman.

When has Dick solo'd Hush? I'm genuinely curious.

BS.

Joker recently assaulted Alfred, beat him unconscious and dragged him away, so......

False. Joker's best feats include giving Cassandra Cain a run for her money, murdering the entire Royal Flush Gang, taking down Damian Wayne while handcuffed, etc etc. There really is no end to the ridiculous stuff he gets up to, so if you want to argue that Alfred's feats are better than Joker's.....don't bother.

He's even, on occasion, given Batman closer fights than Nightwing has. That's the kind of ridiculous we're talking about here.

Either Alfred is some kind of H2H god and no one told me, or one of us is on the lower end of an information asymmetry.

Irrelevant. Batman is better than Alfred even while holding back.

Yes, and Catwoman has also been assaulted and mutilated by Hush. There's your doubt.

@stronger: Hitting him twice and he's still standing is humiliating him? It's reasonable she'd get the first hits because of her agility and he was focused on firearms and not hand-to-hand, after all.

I strongly disagree. There's literally no reason to believe Tim would best him in a random encounter. You cite the Alfred example, yet ignore the key factors (Hush is disguised and under the impression he had Alfred fooled). Meanwhile, you cite the factors in his fight with Batman, yet ignore the fact that, while Batman is indeed holding back to an unknown degree, he's still quite skilled while doing so. While he hasn't had anything on par with that since, he's hardly the chump you seem to imply he is. Even if he loses against both combatants here, he's by no means a "non-factor" IMHO simply because he has the ability to serve as a diversion. But, it's clear you strongly disagree and extended conversation here won't really go anywhere, will it? You have your mind made up on the matter, yes?

Shang-Chi and Moon Knight after a good fight.

Not sure who wins this...

Goes to Team 2.

There isn't much in the respect thread to go off of but from what I am seeing I think team marvel would take it.

No,by any means I love Hush as a character and also his psychological persona which I find quite interesting.What I have seen from Hush though is not what I expected.He has no good feats,instead of stalemating a holding back Batman.

I am ready to change my mind,if you could post some feats to get him even to Tim Drake's League.

1) I think it was during Gates of Gotham.While Dick had the Bat-mantle.I am not sure.

2)This is the biggest bullcrap I have ever heard.Current Tim would absolutely kill Hush.He has beaten the Counsil of Spiders all by himself,kicked the crap out of Damian (twice),humiliated Artemis Crock and beats metas(and even Superboy) in h2h during his free time.Current Tim would absolutely stomp the Hush.

3)Ok,I see.You proved Joker could beat Alfred.Ok.

4)We all know Cassandra Cain depends on her body reading abilities to win her fights.She couldn't beat the Joker because his body language made no sense.As Batman stated,it was jibberish.And finally Joker didn't win at all.

I never tried to prove Alfred has more feats than Joker.It's just Joker doesn't have many good ones.He poisoned Damian to beat him (if it's the fight I remember) and may I remind you Joker got his butt kicked by Barbara Gordon who is arguably the worst fighter in the entire Bat-family and was paralyzed at the time.

5)Correct,but I don't get how this is irrelevant.There was massive plot behind this fight.Batman was trying to get answers rather than fight,while Hush was trying to kill him or at least capture him.And Alfred is no h2h god.I just brought him up to make a point.

This was during Heart of Hush ,if I recall correctly,and Catwoman was ambushed and kidnapped.The way Tommy assaulted her with the intention to abduct her,so he could remove her heart.In a straight up fight Selina proved she is more than enough for him.

@k4tzm4n: What is the time of the day? This would be essential as Moon Knight's statistics increase the closer it is to midnight.

All in all, I could see Hush being taken down by Shang Chi after a fight, and Bane gaining the upper hand on a normal Marc, and being ganged by Shang Chi/Moon Knight.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Moon Knight's physicals are no longer altered by the moon.

Ok....

Then hear it some more. Tim would struggle to beat Hush.

Featless mercenaries.

So?

Funny, for the life of me I can't seem to recall a time when beating Artemis Crock used to be something worth bragging about.

Oh, get real. When they had a serious fight, Superboy casually snapped Tim's arm and thrashed him to a pulp. You're dreaming if you think Tim can supposedly handle Superboy.

With feats like the ones above, doubt it.

Yeah, and according to your scale, Hush > Joker > Alfred. I guess we can drop the "Oh, Hush isn't even Alfred-level" nonsense you've been going on about?

I don't see what any of this has to do with my point. I said Joker gave Cassie a run for her money, and he did. How he did it isn't important here; Cassie does not sink to below Alfred's level just because she can't use her move reading. She can't use her move reading on Deathstroke, and she's still managed to give Slade better solo fights than Batman has.

No, you tried to claim Alfred has better feats than the Joker. He doesn't, and there's no way for you to prove otherwise because it's not something that actually be argued. Barbara Gordon would kick Alfred's ass every single time. Even in the wheelchair. He poisoned Damian during the course of the encounter, it's a perfectly valid tactic. Cheshire does it all the time.

It doesn't matter what Batman was doing or what Elliot was doing. Batman doesn't fight like a moron all of a sudden simply because he wants answers. It's safe to say he was still operating on a level of skill far above Alfred.

Which was what, exactly?

Hard to argue she was actually ambushed when she was the one who got the first blows in. She fought Hush and lost. She also fought Hush later and disarmed him on a rooftop.

@k4tzm4n said:

Wow really? I'm really behind on Marc then. When was this change?

Moon Knight & Shang-Chi.

Honestly, quite some time now.

1) I 'd like to see Hush handling all of them together like Drake did.Or at least the Wanderer.

Damian has more feats than Hush indeed.

Never said Tim is better than Connor. He just managed to beat him once.I haven't seen Hush going up against a meta.Also I wasn't just talking about Superboy.

He has also beaten King Snake,Catwoman and KGBeast by himsef.

The question is,which one of Hush 's feats could put him on Drake's level?

2) Where exactly did you see a post of mine with a "Oh, Hush isn't even Alfred-level" thing in it?

I said 'I don't think Hush is much above Alfred'

3)Do you really know what happened to Cass when she lost her powers and went up against the Batman?She got one-shotted like she was a common street punk.And don't bring those fights with Deathstroke cause there was massive plot in there too.Slade was toying with her,like he does with everyone he wants to test.Like he did with Nightwing,Roy Harper,Batman etc.When he went full out on them,they couldn't even see him coming.BTW I have never seen Cass beating Deathstroke and Slade himself said that he wouldn't want to face Batman without his enhancements and that his injuries where far worst then anyone's he has ever faced.I have the scan if you want it.

4)Dude,what are you saying?Poisoning is something fair to be used when it comes to unarmed combat?It's pure cheating and a cowardly tactic.If you count this as a valid feat,I will count the time when Tim Drake had a speed enhancement and stomped the crap out of Lady Shiva herself.I have the scans.

First of all,I don't even know why you brought up Cheshire?She cheats most of her fights and fleeds the others.She has no important feats anyway.

Second,because some people in this thread might get the impression that Joker would beat Damian in an actual fight,Damian has beaten Joker while tied up.

6)My point was that Hush isn't as a credible fighter as you guys make him out to be.He is an excellent tactician and planner and he has given us some great stories in Batman books,but when it comes to combat,he ain't half as good.

7) Please,I would appreciate it if you provided me with scans of Hush beating up Selina.

At knight MK solos

Moonknight is a hard character to gauge because of his mental instability. I would say he could potentially take both Bane and Hush down if he goes into the same state of mind he was in when he fought Masters. I don't know too much about Hush though. Shang Chi is.......a nice addition, but I've never put much faith in him tbh. I don't think he would take either if Hush is as good as people say, he can be kind of a jobber outside of his usual baddies.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Let's assume this is before Bendis made him batsh** crazy.

In that case I'd have to see more on Hush before I could judge accurately. Tempted to go with team Marvel.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I'd like to see Tim have a serious fight with Batman and not get one-shotted.

Obviously?

In the interests of shooting this ridiculous point in the head and letting it rot in the gutters like it deserves:

If you don't intend to argue that Tim is better than Connor, don't try to pass off Tim beating Conner as a legitimate feat. And if the victory you're talking about is from the new 52 Titans series......Tim lost.

You know how he beat King Snake, right?

When? Hush? A staged fight that ended in a stalemate?

KGBeast is useless......he's been a jobber in every story outside of Ten Nights of the Beast.

Stalemating Batman puts him above Drake's level.

Are you really trying to argue semantics with me?

That was the first time she'd ever lost her body reading, something she'd relied on her entire life. She learned to deal without it long before she ever met Deathstroke.

Sure, and she managed to do better than they ever did.

I never said she beat Deathstroke. I said she's given him closer fights than Batman ever has. Like the fight below from Nightwing #81.

Gallery

Sure, and Slade also claimed he can't beat Cassandra without getting in her head.

How is it cheating when several prominent fighters do it all the time? Shiva recently stomped Bruce and Dick simultaneously, with poisoned shurikens. Is Shiva a cheater and a coward for doing so, anymore than Batman is a cheater and a coward for trying to use electric shocks against Bane or bombs against Killer Croc? Standard weaponry is standard weaponry.

You realize there's a difference between standard weaponry and a stats amp, right? That they're in no way comparable? Right?

Honestly, it's like you're not even trying at this point.

I brought up Cheshire because she's the most prominent example of a fighter incorporating poisons into her combat style. She has no important feats other than beating Nightwing twice in a row and defeating the woman who taught Deathstroke H2H combat.

Sure, and Joker has defeated Damian while handcuffed and getting hit in the head by a crowbar.

And your reasoning for that has been claims that he's not as good as Alfred even though he demonstrably is, claims that a string of unimpressive and/or context-laden Tim Drake feats make Hush inferior to the third Robin, and claims that everyone is always holding back to the point of being Alfred-level in every fight of consequence, like Batman vs Hush and Deathstroke vs Cassandra Cain. At best your point is weak, at worst it's nonsensical.

You literally just mentioned Heart of Hush...

@citizenbane:

1)I 'd like to see Hush even laying a hand on a non-holding back Batman.

2)How did he beat King Snake?

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1308930470

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...obin27pg02.jpg

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...obin27pg03.jpg

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...obin27pg04.jpg

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...obin27pg05.jpg

He pwned Catwoman.And the Hush fight is irrelevant.Tim wasn't trying to put her down.He wanted to put a tracer on her.

3) Hush stalemating Batman is pure plot.....That's what you don't understand.....

4) First of all,it's not even debatable Batman and Nightwing did a lot better than Cass with Deathstroke.

Second,what are you trying to prove with this? That Cassandra Cain is better than Nightwing? Ok I 'm with ya......

We got off-topic.

5)Using cheap tactics to beat someone does not mean you can take him h2h.Shiva stomped Batman only because of the poison shuriken.Current Batman little chance against Current Bane (with venom) in unarmed combat.That's why he used gadgets.Same with Shiva.

The only time I can recall Cheshire fighting Nightwing is during his first year.And I am not sure it was a clear win,cause of her shurikens.And Deathstroke was trained by Natas.I am pretty sure he is not a woman.I remember Cheshire getting stomped by Black Canary at least twice.I also have both scans.

I agree Tim Drake is nothing compared to Shiva and she 'd crush him.You were the one bringing up random things.

6)What part of poisoning Damian you did not understand?????

Joker couldn't even beat Two-Face.

7)And your reasoning for your arguement was a plot induced stalemate with Batman,degrading all my arguements and supporting that poising others is fair and square when it comes to unarmed combat.......

SC would probably be the best fighter here. isnt MK of superhuman quality?

im giving it to team 2

No, Moon Knight is not superhuman.

@k4tzm4n: he isnt superhuma in this fight or not at all.... cause i remember him getting his power from khonshu and the moon

Not at all. He hasn't had those powers in a long time.

Hmm, not sure how much Venom does Bane have here exactly and is this new 52 or pre?

@vaeternus: He's not on venom.

@k4tzm4n:

Oh thanks for the update ;)

btw, have you heard about the Injustice getting a demo?

@vaeternus: Yup! Very excited.

Moon Knight was made "batsh** crazy" way before Bendis got his hands on him. I can't recall the writer's name, but whoever was writing Moon Knight before Bendis had him chop off a guy's face and, then wear it in an attempt to please Khonshu who manifested as the guy whose face was chopped off. It was great stuff.

You misunderstand me, but that's my fault for not elaborating. Marc has always had mental issues, but Bendis made his MPD (which he's always had control over, even in West Coast Avengers) jump off the deep end and with no apparent explanation other than it's a common stereotype that he's entirely loco in that regard. Clearly, I disagree with that belief. I don't mind making such huge changes to his mindset, I just wish a reasoning was provided and apparently there never was one.

Ahhh, I see. My bad, I had just assumed that Moon Knight being kind of crazy was a recent development, and that everyone blamed it on Bendis.

Does anyone know if Hush fought Prometheus? And who won?

@k4tzm4n: oh well im late ha thanks

Marvel team stomp