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#551 Posted by THORSON (2397 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy said:

@THORSON said:

original human torch would win

but bobby is more mature than the goof johnny storm

@comicbookkid said:

ice ice baby yer iceman

You both are getting harassed next. I implore you to pose arguments and make me retype the same argument over again or maybe...like...pose different arguments with accuracy on each character's ability.

C:

i'm honestly too lazy

#552 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ren_: Yes.

@DireDrill said:

It is irrelevant because it is not true. Johnny is still human underneath that fire and such he has Human needs. Humans need blood flow to the brain. The only reason why Johnny can manipulate moisture is that he uses his extreme heat to break the molecular bonds of water molecules into its base components Hydrogen and Oxygen but he can't do that to the moisture inside himself because he needs it to live. Bobby has absolute control over moisture, he can move it around and reshape it at will namely into his own body he need not freeze it. When he decides to kill Johnny, he'll simply turn all that moisture in Johnny into Bobby. With no moisture in Johnny's body, he dies. Johnny can't win here if he exercises a scorched earth policy because ultimately he can't scorch himself. You also don't seem to understand that in order for blood to stay liquid it needs to be at lower than the boiling point of water which is well within Bobby's ability to freeze. His body is his weak point, Bobby can exploit it with no issue like this:

Again, Bobby doesn't yet understand that he is immortal. He only takes damage through psychosomatic means. This is why I brought up M Day, Bobby wants more than anything to be human so his mind tricks him into believing that he is human and as such he takes damage when nothing is really wrong with him. Mystique simply exploited his ignorance. Johnny isn't a clever manipulator like Mystique so it is irrelevant. Bobby would believe the moon was made of cheese if you laid down a convincing enough argument.

Nimrod's main power is to counter mutant powers so since Bobby is a mutant, Nimrod can counter his powers.

Sinister is a telepath, telepathy is one of the weaknesses that Bobby has.

Now since morals were not shut off here, neither can win as Bobby won't go for the kill and Johnny won't burn off all the moisture forcing Bobby to go for the kill shot. Even with morals off, the best Johnny can hope for is a stalemate.

No.

You're not listening and you're not posing any sort of argument to what I said.

How is Iceman going to freeze something that is effectively on fire and sitting within someone who's body temperature is higher than normal?

Show me where Iceman is freezing something that's boiling.

Iceman doesn't have ABSOLUTE control over moisture. Just because he's been seen manipulating moisture doesn't make his control ABSOLUTE. Watch your wording because if he had absolute control over moisture, he'd really have control over water itself, and that's not exactly the truth. Iceman's control lies in lowering the temperature of moisture and freezing it and moving it. That's not absolute.

Bobby isn't pulling the moisture out of Johnny's body, it may or may not be an ability that he has seeing as how it's come from a run on X-Men that is often brushed under the rug. But you have to look at it this way, he may be able to do it, but that's not an ability that's in his repertoire. That's not something he regularly does, it's something that I can only recall him doing out of desperation. And this is me entertaining the idea that Iceman would do something that he's only really done in desperation to my knowledge. Once during Austen's run and then another time I'm forgetting.

I mean it's nothing that Johnny hasn't done either. But I'm not tossing that feat around like it's something regular that Johnny does regularly. Because in a battle where most of their usual tactics are available and applicable, Johnny takes it 8/10 times.

I'm pretty sure Bobby understands the scope of his powers, what he fails to realize is how to approach that scope with the imagination that people expect of him. His mind is weak to a fault and he's easily exhausted by trying new things or having to reform himself.

How is the best that Human Torch can hope for a stalemate when he can retain his form for 16+ hours without exhaustion while Iceman's recorded at only being able to go for 3 hours [I think this was later pushed up to 5 hours later]? Factoring in the fight, it cannot go on for longer than 3 hours if they're fighting within moral guidelines and Iceman still loses. You can't tell me that Human Torch can only hope for a stalemate when:

A.) Nothing posed would really effectively work on Johnny. He's not being frozen from the inside out, he's not having the moisture pulled out of him. Especially if you want to enforce morals. You can't tell me having ice shot at him will work when he's consistently melted bullets into slag, you're not going to tell me he can't stop ice and turn it into steam with ease.

B.) Johnny is much more resilient and in control of his powers than Bobby is. Being a jokester aside, Johnny has always displayed more control on a conscious and unconscious level than Bobby has. The level of control Johnny has over his powers and how powerful he is were further explored in Waid's run on the Fantastic Four when Sue had Johnny's powers and couldn't believe how much control he'd displayed over the years when she couldn't even begin to grasp his power.

All of that aside, I just realized I've been arguing this for about three years and most of what I've said usually goes over everyone's head or they just come along and say "Iceman haha" and really as much as I want to convince people that they're wrong and that Johnny could win and would win in a battle. I mean, having people argue the same point over and over is really what I've grown tired of. I mean, if there were different view points and points being present, but that's not the case and I can't even focus enough to finish writing this.

The only viable way I can see Iceman winning is if for some reason Iceman can land a solid hit on Johnny and extinguish him, which, according to Johnny's best showings won't happen. Johnny has maneuverability comparable to Angel in the air, Iceman still feels pain in his ice form and can be knocked out, Johnny wouldn't even have to destroy his ice form, which would count as a win because Iceman isn't going to pull himself back together and continue fighting.

Can Iceman win with his powers, though?

Absolutely.

If this were Age of Apocalypse Iceman I would say that he wins against Johnny 7/10 times, especially if he keeps the body he's hidden in out of sight like he did in Uncanny X-Force. Age of Apocalypse Iceman used his powers on a much larger scale with no fatigue shown, he is literally Bobby without anything holding him back, he can even shoot energy beams that freeze whatever they touch from his eyes and create multiple ice giants of himself while simultaneously controlling smaller versions of himself.

Beams of ice isn't something that I think Johnny could stop.

Why can he do that?

Possibly because the Magneto of his reality pushed him harder, possibly it was the fall that made him evil and took the humanity out of him. I dunno'.

What's interesting to note, is that even this version of Iceman was defeated by Nightcrawler in a boiler room because there was no moisture and even though, much like 616 Iceman, he could recreate his body and was effectively immortal was still destroyed and killed by being thrown into fire.

But what Iceman could possibly do that Earth-295's Iceman could possibly do is make it so cold that there's no oxygen to operate with because that's what Human Torch needs above all else. But he would have to drop the temperature past a point that I think is impossible with Human Torch working the other way, which is what this whole argument has been about. It's very possible that AoA Iceman can do this because he can neutralize Human Torch and his powers work on such a large scale that he was operating Icemen across city blocks that towered over buildings with ease. That's not a scale that mainstream Bobby has shown.

In fact, mainstream Iceman first started making actual ice copies in Wolverine and the X-Men, and after he was done fending off the Hellfire Club was spent by it and needed rest. Mind you, he didn't make as much bodies as AoA Iceman did and he only operated with them in close vicinity on the front lawn of the Jean Grey School.

Now I'm arguing against myself because there's just so many things that everyone else fails to realize about Iceman and I jumped into this thread three years ago because everyone was blindly choosing Iceman and I just wanted to prove that Human Torch COULD win but now I'm pretty sure he takes a good majority and I wish I was arguing for Iceman but that's boring and people misconstrue what he can do.

All in all I think I'm done debating in this thread especially since Erik's banned and I can't lure him here to insult him I feel like I missed that bus.

#553 Posted by Ren_ (1678 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: you're hilarious

#554 Posted by God_Spawn (37895 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ren_: You, scram. You're derailing MY domain. I don't come into the RPG thread, derail your topics, and then leave. And you're harassing poor iLLy while he is trying to have a civil debate.

You just earned yourself a warning, missy.

Moderator
#555 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ren_ said:

@iLLituracy: you're hilarious

@god_spawn said:

@Ren_: You, scram. You're derailing MY domain. I don't come into the RPG thread, derail your topics, and then leave. And you're harassing poor iLLy while he is trying to have a civil debate.

You just earned yourself a warning, missy.

Get out Courtney. god_spawn has spoken. c:

#556 Posted by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#557 Posted by laflux (15973 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Ren_: You, scram. You're derailing MY domain. I don't come into the RPG thread, derail your topics, and then leave. And you're harassing poor iLLy while he is trying to have a civil debate.

You just earned yourself a warning, missy.

What makes it even more insulting is that she has the cheek to use a alternate account to do so

Online
#558 Posted by God_Spawn (37895 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: I apologize for her harassing you. You don't deserve all the torment she gives you.

@Mercy_:

Moderator
#559 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm confused as to what is happening in this thread...

#560 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it is you who are not listening to yourself. If Johnny eliminates all the moisture in the area with his powers then he FORCES Iceman to kill him in the way I just described. In order to keep bobby from killing him, he has to keep some moisture in the area so that Bobby is not in a situation whereby he has to kill to survive. If there is moisture in the area then Iceman will just remain. His only means of weakening Iceman, ends up getting Johnny killed. If he doesn't go all the way then he can deal NO damage to Iceman resulting in at best a Stalemate.

Again, Bobby's mind has always been his weakest point. I have seen it suggested that Professor X is the direct cause of this through mental manipulation when Bobby was younger. Professor X knew what Bobby was capable of and as such implanted this desire to be human so that he would never turn towards the dark side like Jean. Bobby doesn't get exhausted by his ice form because it is difficult to maintain, he gets exhausted because he is fighting against his own mind. Omega Level Mutants have no limits beyond what they impose on themselves.

Bobby froze Fuego from the inside out. Fuego was a burning person with fire manipulation abilities and as such his blood would be near the boiling point. Johnny can't raise his blood above that level because he dies at that point.

AoA Nightcrawler beating AoA Iceman is PIS, plain and simple because there is nothing that should prevent him from just using the moisture in Nightcrawler's body to survive. The only things that beat Iceman are himself, magic, telepaths, and people whose bodies are not composed of water and are capable of getting .

#561 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I don't. She's such a bully.

@Mercy_:

#562 Posted by The Stegman (24413 posts) - - Show Bio
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

I'm confused as to what is happening in this thread...

Ditto. 
#563 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

All the harassment that I give HIM???????? This is but a mere fraction of retribution for all the misery he has heaped upon me.

#564 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

I'm confused as to what is happening in this thread...

Ditto.

Welcome to the world of Mercy vs. iLLy

#565 Posted by The Stegman (24413 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gadai said:

@The Stegman said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

I'm confused as to what is happening in this thread...

Ditto.

Welcome to the world of Mercy vs. iLLy

I don't like this world! This world is harsh and disturbing!....I...I think I will reject it!
#566 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill said:

I think it is you who are not listening to yourself. If Johnny eliminates all the moisture in the area with his powers then he FORCES Iceman to kill him in the way I just described. In order to keep bobby from killing him, he has to keep some moisture in the area so that Bobby is not in a situation whereby he has to kill to survive. If there is moisture in the area then Iceman will just remain. His only means of weakening Iceman, ends up getting Johnny killed. If he doesn't go all the way then he can deal NO damage to Iceman resulting in at best a Stalemate.

Again, Bobby's mind has always been his weakest point. I have seen it suggested that Professor X is the direct cause of this through mental manipulation when Bobby was younger. Professor X knew what Bobby was capable of and as such implanted this desire to be human so that he would never turn towards the dark side like Jean. Bobby doesn't get exhausted by his ice form because it is difficult to maintain, he gets exhausted because he is fighting against his own mind. Omega Level Mutants have no limits beyond what they impose on themselves.

Bobby froze Fuego from the inside out. Fuego was a burning person with fire manipulation abilities and as such his blood would be near the boiling point. Johnny can't raise his blood above that level because he dies at that point.

AoA Nightcrawler beating AoA Iceman is PIS, plain and simple because there is nothing that should prevent him from just using the moisture in Nightcrawler's body to survive. The only things that beat Iceman are himself, magic, telepaths, and people whose bodies are not composed of water and are capable of getting .

Bobby killing anyone is outside of his morals.

You can't enforce morals on the match and then say that Bobby would be forced to kill him because Bobby wouldn't do that.

The Human Torch isn't going to take it easy on Bobby and think "maybe I should leave some moisture in the air or he'll kill me."

You're talking about Bobby having to kill to survive but if morals are on Johnny's not aiming to kill, either. So what are you talking about?

Your argument is very flawed in this respect.

Also removing the moisture from the air isn't the only way he can weaken Iceman, don't be silly. Removing the moisture from the air is literally something I said Johnny COULD do in battle, I never suggested he WOULD do it. I hope I didn't. I'm pretty sure I didn't.

How is it a stalemate if he can't last as long as Johnny? I just pointed out he can't.

It doesn't matter what's suggested or what Professor X did to Bobby it's really irrelevant because Bobby doesn't have the skill to utilize his powers in a way that can stop Johnny. It doesn't matter what's exhausting him what matters is that he gets exhausted doing it. Show me the definition of an Omega-level mutant as stated in a book that isn't X-Men Forever and is actually canon, I can't find anyone who can do that, and regardless of the fact this too is irrelevant seeing as how we're talking about 616 Bobby not what 616 Bobby may be able to do if he didn't limit himself.

Bobby froze Fuego from the inside out after Fuego ABSORBED him. Bobby was INSIDE of Fuego when he did that. Fuego's powers are technology based, at that. Fuego is not the Human Torch nor did he show that he was on Torch's level. The fact that Fuego absorbed Iceman shows that their power sets are radically different since the Human Torch can't absorb water.

Also saying that Johnny's body can't go above boiling point is a bold face lie when he projects heat that's the temperature of the sun. That's like saying I can shoot fire that's a million degrees but it's only outside of me. That's silly. How can you say that a man is sitting in flames that are upward the melting point of iron but his body isn't going to reach above boiling point? That just doesn't make sense and frankly it's not relevant.

That's the Human Torch's body and the how isn't really explained but that's the way it is. Especially since it's stated that he generates these temperatures from himself and he generates these flames from his body you're going to try and tell me that the inside of his body doesn't burn just as hot?

You can play the PIS card if you want. But you have to realize that you're overestimating Bobby at some point. PIS is something that is done when a writer writes themselves into a wall, it's usually the sign of a bad writer. Rick Remender, the writer of Uncanny X-Force is far from a bad writer, he's a writer that's very respectful of source material when he's doing what he's doing. He's also a guy who clearly understands Iceman's power and what they COULD be as seen in the Archangel Saga.

Now when you say PIS [Plot Induced Stupidity], you have to think about it and you have to really think about it.

What plot was this stupidity induced upon?

A one-shot issue. A one issue story about how Wolverine, Nightcrawler and Deadpool go to kill Iceman.

That was the plot. How can you induce stupidity on a plot that was thought out for this one issue?

Why would he do that? It doesn't make sense.

Deadpool nearly shoots Iceman, but fails to do so because he decides to exchange quips with him and allowed him into his ice form, which Iceman admitted he would have died if Deadpool would have saved the jokes. But the rest of the issue is literally Iceman beating up on Nightcrawler and Wolverine, talking about how they can't kill him. What was one of the means they tried to kill him with? A special grenade.

Now, you're going to tell me; "it wouldn't have worked" and well, it's a moot point.

You may tell me. "Well he wrote himself into a wall prior to the one issue story where they kill AoA Iceman because he had Nightcrawler specifically say he was going to kill him."

Yeah, but he also has an "omega-level" telepath on his team, even if she was going through stuff at that time, he could've just pushed that one-issue story back further, no?

Why didn't he use the moisture inside of Nightcrawler's body? I don't know. Maybe he couldn't focus enough to do it? Maybe it isn't easy? I don't know.

But you can't tell me it's Plot Induced Stupidity when the Plot itself was to kill Iceman. That was literally what the story was about.

#567 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

@The Stegman said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

I'm confused as to what is happening in this thread...

Ditto.

Welcome to the world of Mercy vs. iLLy

iLLy wins.

Curbstomp.

Slaughterhouse.

Spite.

#568 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: Hey...do you remember that tinychat (or whatever) convo we had with a couple of others last summer? I took screenshots...I could share them.

And please don't make me bring up your Busiek shame again.

#569 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (2827 posts) - - Show Bio

Human Torch.

#570 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

@iLLituracy: Hey...do you remember that tinychat (or whatever) convo we had with a couple of others last summer? I took screenshots...I could share them.

And please don't make me bring up your Busiek shame again.

I looked good and I'm worried as to why you took screenshots and even more worried as to why you kept them.

You're such a creep.

And I hold no shame when it comes to Busiek.

Busiek holds all the shame.

Spends his adult life writing super heroes but refuses to be a hero when one is in need.

No, I hold no shame, Courtney.

I am shameless.

#571 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: To use for moments like this, why else? Don't you get it yet? You've made me your archnemesis through your constant torturing of me. I have been planning for all outcomes.

Really? I'd be kind of ashamed if I were you.

#572 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

@iLLituracy: To use for moments like this, why else? Don't you get it yet? You've made me your archnemesis through your constant torturing of me. I have been planning for all outcomes.

Really? I'd be kind of ashamed if I were you.

Everything about this is gold.

Everything.

#573 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio
#574 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

This is true. I used to watch Doogie Howser, M.D.

#575 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio
#576 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

You've stooped so low to take screencaps of yourself posting screencaps.

That is hot, though. My nipples are kind of hard.

#577 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: No, I took a screencap of you quoting a screencap that I'd already posted. That's different.

You're a weirdo. Maybe you should just go back to your CM love affair.

#578 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ellie_Knightfall: CM, much like yourself, missed out on that train.

Also, he still owes me money, it wouldn't work out.

#579 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: Haha yes, I know you were into me.

I remember you threatening to burn down Greece, much the same as you did to Boston.

#580 Posted by God_Spawn (37895 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

All the harassment that I give HIM???????? This is but a mere fraction of retribution for all the misery he has heaped upon me.

What misery? He just tries to be nice to you and you kick him in the balls every time. Shame on you, DH.

Moderator
#581 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

You were the one who suggested that Johnny would eliminate moisture in the area. You were the one that forced Bobby into a kill or be killed situation and since he killed that person in that scan to survive you can be sure he would do it here. I think you just proved my point, when Johnny forces Bobby to occupy the moisture inside Johnny, he will have officially ABSORBED Iceman INSIDE him just like Fuego. Iceman has used this form of attack at least twice in canon comics so it is a consistent feat that he can and will do if the situation calls for it. When you had Johnny remove the moisture, you made Bobby a killer.

I imposed those morals only because that information was left out of the OP and you seemed to be operating Johnny without morals. Johnny would never do to Bobby what you suggest.

Bobby doesn't have trouble going from Human Form to Ice Form, he has difficulty going from Ice Form into Human Form. He was stuck in Ice Form for awhile and he doesn't want to get stuck again which is why he tries not to stay in Ice Form too long. Keep in mind that when going from Ice to Human form he has to perform pretty high level Matter Manipulation to build his body and clothes which as you are aware, is not really his cup of tea.

When Deathstroke racked up his biggest set of PIS victories against the Justice League that was the whole point of the story. It does not make it any less PIS because the writer of the story was unable to come up with a reasonable means of executing it. Cry For Justice, Tower of Babel, Deathstroke Tagging Flash, Spider-man beating Firelord are all stories centered around those very battles that are still PIS. AoA Iceman also =/= 616 Iceman, he may not be an Omega Level Mutant and the limits of his powers may have been reached already.

Shooting Bobby in human form would only force him into his Psionic form just like Mister M, Quentin Quire, Jean Grey, X-man, Legion, Vulcan, Franklin Richards, and every other Omega Level Mutant. When you are talking about a subspecies you simply look at what separates it from the rest of that species. Omega Level Mutants are a subspecies of Mutant so we simply look at what separates them from normal mutants. For instance Insects are a subspecies of Arthropods that all have 6 legs, 3 sectioned bodies, 1 set of antenna, compound eyes, and chitinous exoskeletons. Omega Level Mutants are all immortal and all have no limits on what they can do in their specific field. Just like Mass and Energy, you can't kill an Omega Level Mutant only convert it into another form.

Johnny controls where and how heat is distributed, this is what allows him to pick people up without burning them and not outright annihilate all matter around him. He can make an area cold if so chose by moving that heat away which he did when he helped Bobby get close to Absolute Zero. So while outside his body the temperature is thousands of degrees hot, his insides are a cool below 100 degrees centigrade (Boiling Point of Water). If this were not true then he would be unable to pick people up and carry them while 'Flamed On." Cyclops dishes out enough force to push through a mountain and despite Newton's objection, his head doesn't detach from his body. Most temperature manipulators can do this, make one area into sweltering heat or freezing cold and then make an area mere millimeters away into a normal everyday temperature. Heck, we can do that through technological means right now. Johnny is Pyrokinetic, the Flames come from his mind not his body. Do you really think that his body produces fire like say a dragon? That he has several small flamethrowers built into his body. That sir is ridiculous. You may be able to make that argument for Ultimate Johnny or the previous Human Torches but not for 616 Johnny.

All in all, Johnny is still a powerful guy but when it comes down to it he isn't in Bobby's league.

#582 Posted by nickzambuto (13685 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh this thread.

#583 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

I submit the Dear Courtney thread as evidence to the contrary.

#584 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio
There's just so much...nonsense in this that I have to dissect it. Gimme a second tho. 
 
@DireDrill said: 

You were the one who suggested that Johnny would eliminate moisture in the area. 

You're mistaken. I said Johnny could eliminate the moisture in the area and that Iceman would have no counter against it.  He doesn't. 

You were the one that forced Bobby into a kill or be killed situation and since he killed that person in that scan to survive you can be sure he would do it here.

This doesn't even make sense. Because Bobby wouldn't feel that threatened by the Human Torch to feel like it's a life or death scenario. You're just saying things. 
 
Also why would Iceman feel like his life is threatened because the air is dry? 
 
Just...what?

I think you just proved my point, when Johnny forces Bobby to occupy the moisture inside Johnny, he will have officially ABSORBED Iceman INSIDE him just like Fuego.

Wow. 
 
WHAT? 
 
Johnny can't ABSORB MOISTURE. That's NOT HIS POWER. 
 
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING????? 

Iceman has used this form of attack at least twice in canon comics so it is a consistent feat that he can and will do if the situation calls for it. When you had Johnny remove the moisture, you made Bobby a killer.

I've never been accused of murder during a debate this is a new experience, really.  I'd honestly--seriously address this but I can't find it in myself to do so.

I imposed those morals only because that information was left out of the OP and you seemed to be operating Johnny without morals. Johnny would never do to Bobby what you suggest.

No, you're mistaken.  When I originally came into this thread the debate had already moved onto an argument of what they would do without morals, how Iceman could freeze Johnny's brain or freeze every cell in his body. I countered by asking how Iceman could survive a nova. That's how the debate's been since I've been here.  
 
The only thing I've REALLY suggested that Johnny wouldn't do against Iceman is POSSIBLY going full on nova. That's neither here nor there, though.
 
With or without morals, Bobby loses, it doesn't make much difference.

Bobby doesn't have trouble going from Human Form to Ice Form, he has difficulty going from Ice Form into Human Form. He was stuck in Ice Form for awhile and he doesn't want to get stuck again which is why he tries not to stay in Ice Form too long.

I don't know why you're...mentioning this? 
 
Is this in response to the fact that I said Johnny can maintain his plasma form longer than Iceman can maintain his ice form? 
 
Because that has nothing to do with what's stated in handbooks.

Keep in mind that when going from Ice to Human form he has to perform pretty high level Matter Manipulation to build his body and clothes which as you are aware, is not really his cup of tea.

Oh God. 
 
What does this have to do with ANYTHING? I just want to talk facts, dude. Facts that have to do with the battle.

When Deathstroke racked up his biggest set of PIS victories against the Justice League that was the whole point of the story. It does not make it any less PIS because the writer of the story was unable to come up with a reasonable means of executing it.

That wasn't the whole point of the story. 
 
I see the point you're trying to make but the writer felt that was possible and then wrote it that way. The same way when you have Batman fighting Superman in some stories and gaining the upper hand. That's a completely different conversation about the appeal of ordinary human superheroes or superheroes who are weaker schooling other superheroes who are vastly more powerful. 
 
Deathstroke fighting the Justice League in Identity Crisis had little to do with the plot. Thus, that doesn't exactly make it PIS. PIS is when you have someone win against someone defeat someone else to advance the plot, to keep your story going because it was unforeseen that the hero or whoever would have trouble with their adversary. This win usually comes in the form of deus ex machina or luck or just having whoever win even though it doesn't make sense. That's why it's called plot induced stupidity.
 
You can disagree with it. You can even argue against it. There's even some instances where you have fights that shouldn't have gone one way that don't influence the plot at all. It was just bad writing. But we're talking about celebrated writer Rick Remender and you can call him a bad writer but you'd be wrong. 

Cry For Justice, Tower of Babel, Deathstroke Tagging Flash, Spider-man beating Firelord are all stories centered around those very battles that are still PIS. AoA Iceman also =/= 616 Iceman, he may not be an Omega Level Mutant and the limits of his powers may have been reached already.

Let me just point out that when I first mentioned AoA Iceman...I pointed out that they aren't the same people. I'm not saying they are the same person. I'm merely saying that if any version of Iceman has a chance against the Human Torch, it's the vastly superior AoA Iceman. 
 
It's also easy to point out that they're not the same person, but AoA Iceman is probably as close as you can get to mainstream Bobby seeing as how AoA, while it is a different universe, is a product of a divergent timeline caused by the 616. This doesn't really matter, because my point was that AoA Iceman is more powerful and could beat the Human Torch and take the majority.  
 
Everything that Iceman has done that constitutes him being "omega level" which is something that no one can define nor has it really been defined in the comics other than it means they're really powerful or have potential AoA Iceman has done tenfold without any of the drawbacks. I think whether he's omega or not is irrelevant because AoA Iceman's feats are way above 616 Iceman's. 
 
You keep clinging to the tag of "OMEGA LEVEL MUTANT" when it doesn't even mean anything when you put it up to solid feats.

Shooting Bobby in human form would only force him into his Psionic form just like Mister M, Quentin Quire, Jean Grey, X-man, Legion, Vulcan, Franklin Richards, and every other Omega Level Mutant.

This is a bold face lie. 
 
I'm pretty sure Beast himself told Bobby that he would die if he was killed in human form. 
 
How are you going to say something like this when it's baseless? You have NO PROOF that this would happen to Bobby when Bobby only survived because he reverted to his ice form when he was "killed" or was already in it. 

When you are talking about a subspecies you simply look at what separates it from the rest of that species. Omega Level Mutants are a subspecies of Mutant so we simply look at what separates them from normal mutants. For instance Insects are a subspecies of Arthropods that all have 6 legs, 3 sectioned bodies, 1 set of antenna, compound eyes, and chitinous exoskeletons. Omega Level Mutants are all immortal and all have no limits on what they can do in their specific field. Just like Mass and Energy, you can't kill an Omega Level Mutant only convert it into another form.

Show me where it says this. 
 
Show me the proof to back up these claims.  
 
There is really no definition to Omega level mutants and you're trying to win this debate with theories. 
 
Don't give me theories, give me facts.

Johnny controls where and how heat is distributed, this is what allows him to pick people up without burning them and not outright annihilate all matter around him. He can make an area cold if so chose by moving that heat away which he did when he helped Bobby get close to Absolute Zero. So while outside his body the temperature is thousands of degrees hot, his insides are a cool below 100 degrees centigrade (Boiling Point of Water). If this were not true then he would be unable to pick people up and carry them while 'Flamed On."

Okay, but the notion that he would have to do this to himself is ridiculous for a number of reasons. 
 
You're reaching when it comes to this. There's just some things you can't explain in comics.

Cyclops dishes out enough force to push through a mountain and despite Newton's objection, his head doesn't detach from his body. Most temperature manipulators can do this, make one area into sweltering heat or freezing cold and then make an area mere millimeters away into a normal everyday temperature.

You can accept that Cyclops dishes out enough force to push through a mountain and that his head doesn't recoil and detach but you can't accept that Johnny's body burns almost as hot as his flame that can't hurt him? 
 
If you want an explanation, perhaps it's that his cells absorb the energy? It means his blood is hot, anyway. His body is impervious to flames, his very cells are impervious to flame. This is fact, this is how his powers are explained, that's why his blood doesn't boil or evaporate when he's on fire. The same reason why he isn't burned by the flame that he's wrapped in, and it isn't because he can manipulate the heat away from himself, it's because he can't be hurt by fire. 
 
Period.

Heck, we can do that through technological means right now. Johnny is Pyrokinetic, the Flames come from his mind not his body. Do you really think that his body produces fire like say a dragon? That he has several small flamethrowers built into his body. That sir is ridiculous. You may be able to make that argument for Ultimate Johnny or the previous Human Torches but not for 616 Johnny.

Your attempts to sass me have failed. 
 
His body stores energy and ignites. 
 
Yes, it's a mental process, but so would be pulling the trigger on a flamethrower. 
 
His body produces the flame, it's not like he's shooting fire from his brain, he stores the energy in his cells, that's how it works.  
 
Pyrokinetic is also a term I don't like because it isn't official. It's not something that Marvel calls him. Sure he can control fire with a thought but that's a broad term. Can you call him a pyrokinetic? Sure, because he exercises something that's similar to pyrokinesis. Is it fair to say that's what he does or officially class him as that? I don't think so.

All in all, Johnny is still a powerful guy but when it comes down to it he isn't in Bobby's league.

Okay, but you're just stating that over and over.  You're leaving me with a baseless claim.   

I can't do anything with this. 
 
It's not something I can cash at the bank, you feel me?
#585 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ellie_Knightfall said:

@iLLituracy: Haha yes, I know you were into me.

I remember you threatening to burn down Greece, much the same as you did to Boston.

...someone ban her
#586 Posted by Eternelle (1070 posts) - - Show Bio
Click to enlarge
#587 Posted by Mikey Venture (69 posts) - - Show Bio

Super nova Johnny right ?

#588 Posted by AlteredBeast (149 posts) - - Show Bio

Double KO

#589 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mikey Venture said:

Super nova Johnny right ?

Depends. 
 
It's probably safest to just give an answer for every possible scenario, I guess.
#590 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gadai said:

Click to enlarge

I forgot I said I was going to do this.

Also I win this thread I'm undefeated and you can't shut me or the power of logic up everyone log out of CV.

#591 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: You're not undefeated.

#592 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ellie_Knightfall: NAME ONE TIME I WAS DEFEATED YOU LIAR.

#593 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: Pretty sure Morph's ban-hammer handed you a decisive defeat.

#594 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ellie_Knightfall: NAME TWO TIMES THEN.

#595 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: Just now :)

#596 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ellie_Knightfall: Get out of the Battles forums you don't belong here you've managed to annoy me, cretin.

#597 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4819 posts) - - Show Bio

@iLLituracy: Another victory for me >:)

#598 Posted by Madut (2 posts) - - Show Bio

If the human torch melts him then he is not iceman anymore

#599 Posted by WALLCRAWLER (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@speed: human torch could melt iceman then vaporise the water form of iceman

#600 Posted by SirNickTheEpic (590 posts) - - Show Bio

the torch wins, it wont be easy but he can fly to start with ans pretty fast too... he can also go supernova evaporating iceman completly ... torch is also a herald of galactus so i think though it being an amazing fight iceman would fall.