Hulk vs Lex Luthor & Superman

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AllStarSuperman

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Team obviously

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patrat18

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Soothing_Sounds

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green_skaar

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Lvenger

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@soothing_sounds said:

@lvenger: @dextersinister: @green_skaar: @sog7dc: I don't like changing things midway, but i'm allowing Banner celestial tech to work with for the 5 days prep.

Interesting turn of events, however I'm not super familiar with celestial tech, hopefully someone can fill me in! @killemall any insight?

Well you know more than I do about this Celestial Tech thing because I've never even heard of Banner having this on hand.

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jwwprod

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Soothing_Sounds

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@lvenger: He doesn't, but there have been many times Hulk has used celestial tech as well as multitudes of times Celestial tech has been worked on by other genius's. Slight speculation, i know, i apologize.

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Dextersinister

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@lvenger: He doesn't, but there have been many times Hulk has used celestial tech as well as multitudes of times Celestial tech has been worked on by other genius's. Slight speculation, i know, i apologize.

There's clearly different levels/representations of Celestial tech considering despite having access to it Apoc would often struggle to beat a cold.

You also need to be careful of what you give him and make sure it's what he's had access to at some point or it may simply beccome a case of Celestial tech vs Superman/Lex

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deactivated-5b2e798651249

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Personally i don't really think Banners prepping skills match Luthros in any ways.

I feel that the team can take this.

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Soothing_Sounds

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@dextersinister: Hmmm. How bout Apoc & IM celestial tech that's been used over the years?

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Ancient_0f_Days

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Hulk......fast......BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Nope, not fast enough, Team stomps

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SPM1M

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i honestly cant comprehend how ppl believe hulk is fast enough for his speed to matter in a fight against superman

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Dextersinister

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Soothing_Sounds

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#64  Edited By Soothing_Sounds

@dextersinister: No. Hulk using Banner prep with Celestial tech as a resource is not the same as fighting Apoc & IM. I don't know how that could be similar in any way except that they're sharing the same pool of resources. How is Hulk, infinite creature of strength related to the tech guy and the first mutant.

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Dextersinister

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@soothing_sounds: because your having him use equipment that he has never used before so it's never been part of his character, whereas if IM and Apoc have used it it's part of there's. Something that's not recommend in the vine rules.

Sort of along the lines of giving a Batman a green ring which would have hypothetical results vs giving Luthor an orange which he has actually wielded.

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RetconCrisis

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Lex's prep seems to be more impressive as far as things go. He's taken on Brainiac head on with prep and his resources. Like said above, he can build a Superboy-Prime type suit for Superman and get himself a pretty powerful suit as well.

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Lvenger

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@lvenger: He doesn't, but there have been many times Hulk has used celestial tech as well as multitudes of times Celestial tech has been worked on by other genius's. Slight speculation, i know, i apologize.

So he doesn't have easy access to it like he does his Old Power gear and stuff from his SHIELD lab?

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Soothing_Sounds

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@soothing_sounds: because your having him use equipment that he has never used before so it's never been part of his character, whereas if IM and Apoc have used it it's part of there's. Something that's not recommend in the vine rules.

Sort of along the lines of giving a Batman a green ring which would have hypothetical results vs giving Luthor an orange which he has actually wielded.

Except Hulk has used celestial equipment before and Banner's just using a different type of resource. I already said there was slight speculation and i apologized for it.

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green_skaar

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Am I the only one thinking this should be Hulk + Lex vs Superman? The general consensus (right or wrong) is Superman > Hulk, so adding Lex to Superman would only make this more lopsided than normal.

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Team wins

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dum529001

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#71  Edited By dum529001

Hulk is slow?

I think not.

Examples of Hulk's speed and power:

Hulk can bust out several thousand of megatons of nuclear power without breaking a sweat. This alone shows that his him up to speed with any character in this thread.

Once again, we can see the Hulk's power easily dwarfs any nuclear assault that earth can muster. Here he shown ripping through a bunker designed to withstand the explosion of many thousands of megatons in magnitude. "Against the force of the gamma-energized Hulk.... it fares not well at all inincredible Hulk #177:

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First of all let me ask...

Which is greater?

A. the energy required to pull earth out its orbit of the sun

OR

B. the energy required to reverse the planet's orbit, therefore pushing back and overpowering the electromagnetic force the sun puts on the earth?

The answer is B.

If you would actually read it, this is exactly what the Hulk is shown doing in this comic scan:

Overpowering a field of energy endowed with sufficient power to change the orbit of a planet(Tales to Astonish#89)

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Hulk has the power to move a planet at baseline.

The fact that the field strength needed to be increased is proof that Hulk was contesting that kind of power.

Even so, Hulk showed power to overcome a planet's kinetic energy, which is better than overcoming the force it has while it's just sitting there in its static state.

It takes 632 quadrillion 850 trillion megatons(6.3285*10^17) just to stop the earth's orbit. Hulk overpowered energy that could not only stop a planet's orbit but reverse it as well, which means Hulk was able to put out even more power than that.

The gravitational binding energy of earth is 224 nontillion joules(224,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000). There is 4 quadrillion 184 trillion joules per megaton(1 Mt = 4,184,000,000,000,000 J). Therefore, it takes 53 quadrillion 537 trillion 285 billion megatons to smash earth to smithereens(5.3537285*10^16). That's as much energy as the sun produces in a week! According to what Hulk has shown, Hulk can also destroy a planet at his baseline power level.

Do you know how fast a 1 ton object has to move to put out energy equal to earth's orbital energy?

Since it takes 632 quadrillion 850 trillion megatons or 2 decillion 700 nontillion joules(2.7*10^33)to stop earth's orbit then we just need input 1 ton as our mass value and solve for the speed.

2.7*10^33 Joules=½(1000 kg)(X meters per second)^2

2.7*10^33 Joules/500= 5.4*10^30 = 5,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (dividing)

X^2= 5,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (find the square root of 5 nontillion 400 octillion)

X=2,323,790,000,000,000 m/s (the value of X found!!!)

That's 2 quadrillion 323 trillion 790 billion meters per second!

The speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s. So how much faster than light is a 1 ton object with earth's orbital energy?

2,323,790,000,000,000 meters per second/299,792,458 meters per second=7,751,329.08781

That's 7 million 751 thousand 329 times faster than the speed of light(with some decimal points)!! An incredible speed!

Since the arm is only 6 percent of the body's mass the real speed would be:

6% of 1000 kg= 60 kg

2.7*10^33 Joules=½(60 kg)(X meters per second)^2

2.7*10^33 Joules/30=9*10^31= 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (dividing)

X^2= 90,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (find the square root of 90 nontillion)

X= 9.486833*10^15= 9,486,833,000,000,000 m/s(the value of X found!!!)

That's 9 quadrillion 486 trillion 833 billion meters per second.

9,486,833,000,000,000 meters per second/299,792,458 meters pers second= 31644668.6594

That's 31 million 644 thousand 668 times the speed of light!(with decimal points) An incredible display of Hulk's superhuman speed.

At a second meeting years later, The Stranger recognize that Hulk was even stronger than before because once again, Hulk shrugs off the energy that the Stranger uses in an attempt to render him motionless inMarvel Two-In-One annual #2:

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Here's Hulk doing a feat of great cosmic proportions once again:

Applying force to the space-time structure itself to prevent the Defenders from being absorbed into a fissure(Defenders#3)(with the size of the singularity estimated in about seven feets according to the Schwarzschild radius, then it's mass/gravitational attraction, by the equivalence principle, is thus equivalent to roughly two hundreds Earths),

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Hulk matches power and withstands attacks from Galaxy Master, a foe with planet-splitting power, not once but twice! in incredible Hulk #112and incredible Hulk #270:

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Savage Hulk vs Galaxy Master, from Incredible Hulk #112:

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Savage Hulk vs Galaxy Master rematch, from Incredible Hulk #270:

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One of the Hulk's sons, Hiro-Kala, has the power to throw a planet at the earth with planet-busting force with the use of two power sources known as the "old-power" and "new-power" but the Hulk resists his power inIncredible Hulks #615-16:

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World War Hulk vs Hiro Kala, from Incredible Hulks #615-16:

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Here's the Whole Scene of Hulk Pushing apart the two Spheres of Matter and Anti-matter (Marvel Team-Up Annual#2):

This feat involving matter and anti matter is akin to the "irresistible force meets the immovable object".

Anti-matter electrons are on opposite spin from normal matter's electrons and when they collide they start destroy each other and those forces of atomic destruction are converted into energy, the matter and antimatter being destroyed in the process.

It would take unending amounts of energy to stop the energy conversion, because matter and antimatter don't stop bashing each other once they come into contact. To stop the release of energy you'd need irrestible resistance forces.

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And any such notion that the Gray Hulk can never achieve the heights of other Hulks' strength levels should be dismissed in the face of the following infamous feat. Launched by experimental anti-magnetic jet-propelled rocket springs, the Gray Hulk busts apart an asteroid measured to be TWICE the size of the Earth in Marvel Comics Presents #52:

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Gray Hulk definitely does not lack in striking power as he manages to best the Abomination. "On paper, the Abomination may, technically, be the more powerfulof the two. The [Gray] Hulk never read those papers." From Incredible Hulk Annual #15:

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Without any sort of leverage against Glorian's bands, a power reality warper, Gray Hulk still musters enough strength to break free in Incredible Hulk #355:

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When push comes to shove, the Gray Hulk is more than capable of wrestling Wonder Man toe-to-toe in Hulk Smash Avengers#4:

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Hulk causes earthquakes around the world through the force of the punches he exhanges with a couple of gamma-empowered boars in Incredible #1-3:

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A single thunderclap shreds an entire battalion of tanks with force of "near nuclear proportions" in Tales to Astonish #67:

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Savage Hulk has wracked Hyperion with a single thunderclap -- that also reverberates for blocks and shatters Dr. Spectrum's prism in Defenders#4:

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The power of gamma rays on full display here as the Hulk's "gamma-spawned might" can also give light to an "eons-dark cosmos" in Incredible Hulk #126:

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The seismic activity produced by Hulk's casual strikes and clashes between other powerhouses are equal to several megatons since they shown around the "9.0" mark on the ritcter scale.

Approximate MagnitudeApproximate TNT for
Seismic Energy Yield
Joule equivalentExample
0.015 g63
0.230 g130 kJLarge hand grenade
0.585 g360 kJ
1.0480 g2.0 MJ
1.21.1 kg4.9 MJSingle stick of dynamite [DynoMax Pro]
1.42.2 kg9.8 MJSeismic impact of typical small construction blast
1.52.7 kg11 MJ
2.015 kg63 MJ
2.121 kg89 MJWest fertilizer plant explosion[21]
2.585 kg360 MJ
3.0480 kg2.0 GJ
3.52.7 metric tons11 GJPEPCON fuel plant explosion, Henderson, Nevada, 1988

Dallas, Texas earthquake, September 30, 2012

3.879.5 metric tons40 GJExplosion at Chernobyl nuclear power plant, 1986
3.9111 metric tons46 GJMassive Ordnance Air Blast bomb

St. Patrick's Day earthquake, Auckland, New Zealand, 2013[22][23]

4.015 metric tons63 GJMaine/New England, October 16, 2012
4.343 metric tons180 GJKent Earthquake (Britain), 2007

Eastern Kentucky earthquake, November 2012

5.0480 metric tons2.0 TJLincolnshire earthquake (UK), 2008

Ontario-Quebec earthquake (Canada), 2010[24][25]

5.52.7 kilotons11 TJLittle Skull Mtn. earthquake (Nevada, USA), 1992

Oklahoma City bombing, 1995 Alum Rock earthquake (California), 2007
Chino Hills earthquake (Southern California), 2008

5.63.8 kilotons16 TJNewcastle, Australia, 1989

Oklahoma, 2011
Pernik, Bulgaria, 2012

6.015 kilotons63 TJDouble Spring Flat earthquake (Nevada, USA), 1994

Approximate magnitude of Virginia/Washington, D.C./East Coastearthquake, 2011
Approximate yield of the Little Boy Atomic Bomb dropped onHiroshima (~16 kt)

6.343 kilotons180 TJRhodes earthquake (Greece), 2008

Jericho earthquake (British Palestine), 1927
Christchurch earthquake (New Zealand), 2011

6.460 kilotons250 TJKaohsiung earthquake (Taiwan), 2010

Vancouver earthquake (Canada), 2011

6.585 kilotons360 TJCaracas earthquake (Venezuela), 1967

Irpinia earthquake (Italy), 1980
Eureka earthquake (California, USA), 2010
Zumpango del Rio earthquake (Guerrero, Mexico), 2011[26]

6.6120 kilotons500 TJSan Fernando earthquake (California, USA), 1971
6.7170 kilotons710 TJNorthridge earthquake (California, USA), 1994
6.8240 kilotons1.0 PJNisqually earthquake (Anderson Island, WA), 2001

Great Hanshin earthquake (Kobe, Japan), 1995
Gisborne earthquake (Gisborne, NZ), 2007

6.9340 kilotons1.4 PJSan Francisco Bay Area earthquake (California, USA), 1989

Pichilemu earthquake (Chile), 2010
Sikkim earthquake (Nepal-India Border), 2011

7.0480 kilotons2.0 PJJava earthquake (Indonesia), 2009

Haiti earthquake, 2010

7.1680 kilotons2.8 PJMessina earthquake (Italy), 1908

San Juan earthquake (Argentina), 1944
Canterbury earthquake (New Zealand), 2010

7.2950 kilotons4.0 PJVrancea earthquake (Romania), 1977

1980 Azores Islands Earthquake
Baja California earthquake (Mexico), 2010

7.52.7 megatons11 PJKashmir earthquake (Pakistan), 2005

Antofagasta earthquake (Chile), 2007

7.63.8 megatons16 PJNicoya earthquake (Costa Rica), 2012

Oaxaca earthquake (Mexico), 2012
Gujarat earthquake (India), 2001
İzmit earthquake (Turkey), 1999
Jiji earthquake (Taiwan), 1999

7.75.4 megatons22 PJSumatra earthquake (Indonesia), 2010

Haida Gwaii earthquake (Canada), 2012

7.87.6 megatons32 PJTangshan earthquake (China), 1976

Hawke's Bay earthquake (New Zealand), 1931
Luzon earthquake (Philippines), 1990

7.910-15 megatons42-63 PJTunguska event
1802 Vrancea earthquake

Great Kanto earthquake (Japan), 1923

8.015 megatons63 PJMino-Owari earthquake (Japan), 1891

San Juan earthquake (Argentina), 1894
San Francisco earthquake (California, USA), 1906
Queen Charlotte Islands earthquake (B.C., Canada), 1949
Chincha Alta earthquake (Peru), 2007
Sichuan earthquake (China), 2008
Kangra earthquake, 1905

8.121 megatons89 PJMéxico City earthquake (Mexico), 1985

Guam earthquake, August 8, 1993[27]

8.3550 megatons210 PJTsar Bomba - Largest thermonuclear weapon ever tested
8.585 megatons360 PJSumatra earthquake (Indonesia), 2007
8.6120 megatons500 PJSumatra earthquake (Indonesia), 2012
8.7170 megatons710 PJSumatra earthquake (Indonesia), 2005
8.75200 megatons840 PJKrakatoa 1883
8.8240 megatons1.0 EJChile earthquake, 2010,
9.0480 megatons2.0 EJLisbon earthquake (Portugal), All Saints Day, 1755
The Great Japan earthquake, March 2011
9.15800 megatons3.3 EJToba eruption 75,000 years ago; among the largest known volcanic events.[28]
9.2950 megatons4.0 EJAnchorage earthquake (Alaska, USA), 1964
Sumatra-Andaman earthquake and tsunami (Indonesia), 2004
9.52.7 gigatons11 EJValdivia earthquake (Chile), 1960
10.015 gigatons63 EJNever recorded, equivalent to an earthquake rupturing a very large, lengthy fault, or an extremely rare/impossible mega-earthquake, shown in science fiction[clarification needed]
12.55100 teratons420 ZJYucatán Peninsula impact (creating Chicxulub crater) 65 Ma ago (108megatons; over 4x1030 ergs = 400 ZJ).[29][30][31][32][33]
22.88 or 32310 yottatons1.3×1039 JApproximate magnitude of the starquake on the magnetarSGR 1806-20, registered on December 27, 2004.[clarification needed]

While they can be localized, most of the time Savage Hulk's shockwaves are catastrophic in nature. Here the shockwaves are registered by seismologists in Incredible Hulk #147:

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A double-fist pound's shockwave rumbles the Rainbow Bridge enough to toss aside Heimdall in Tales to Astonish #101:

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He's destroyed an entire subterranean city with the shockwaves produced by a single blow in Incredible Hulk #127:

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His double-fist pounds have caused volcanic eruptions in Incredible Hulk #117 and 170:

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Once again, here's another good example of Hulk's great striking power in Incredible Hulk #118:

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Even while in upstate New York, his shockwaves are felt instantly miles away in Maine in Incredible Hulk Annual 2001:

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A single footstomp's "shockwave causes devastation for miles" in Incredible Hulk Annual 2001:

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Another double-fist pound sends shockwaves rippling across a town in Deadpool vol.5 #39:

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He punches a platform underneath a gigantic Wendigo and Bi-Beast so hard, he sends them to outer space in Incredible Hulks#631:

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Savage Hulk clashes with Hyperion and the shockwaves they radiate are felt "countless miles away, [as] geologists look to their seismographs -- then shake their heads in disbelief." From Defenders #13:

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But Savage Hulk can wreak even greater havoc solo. Here, Savage Hulk's double-fist pound in Colorado creates shockwaves that are felt all the way out inDenmark, from Incredible Hulk Annual #5:

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Here, he tears open the side of a mountain base in Incredible Hulk vol.2 #64:

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And Hulk has also opened a fissure in the earth in Incredible Hulk #130-135:

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And he's also stopped and close a rift using only his hands in incredible Hulk #203:

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Hulk can punch through doors made to handle a nuclear strike:

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Hulk punches right through a mountain busting warhead:

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Hulk's superhuman reaction speed & long distance travel speed.

Okay, first of all, Hulk is not slow. He may not be agile and skilled fighter(some of the time), but he is not slow at all. He's extremey fast.

To suggest that Spider-man, Daredevil, Wolverine, or someone other than a top tier powerhouse is as fast or faster than the Hulk is ludicrous.

Bullet dodging does not automatically mean you have bullet speed. The way you dodged it does matter.

The point is that dodging and such is not always about raw speed. Again, the way you dodge actually does matter.

A. Spider-man has early-warning thanks to his spider-sense and dodges the aim of his opponent strikes just before they fire and reach anywhere near full-speed since most of the times what he doges is too fast for him to out-race by either the speed at which he extends his limbs to make a strike of his own or flies forward like rocket.

Wolverine can do the same to missles that fly at him close enough (without the spider-sense), placing himslef in posistion to slash a missile, without moving his arm or body at missle-speed.

Dodging or diving into the aim of a projectle in the moment before its aim is right on its target does not mean your moving as fast as the object fired. Moving the moment just before the shot is fired is not about raw speed. Its just about being a step ahead of the opponent.

Being able to move your body in the same moment the projectile is already trained on its target and firing(or after its been fired) and be able to make it in time, is a true feat of speed.

When Hulk and Thor dodge and block super-fast projectiles, they do it with pure speed.

Hulk and Thor's bodily energy is on the level of a star or greater.The sun of our solar system is 333,000 times more massive than earth and every particle of it is jumping around at the speed of light. the sun even travels around the galaxy at 225 kilometers per second, which is Mach 661(661 times the speed of sound). Hulk and Thor are not anywhere near as massive. Can you imagine how fast they are? Can you imagine how fast their muscles contract? It would have to be at light-speed or greater.

These guys are living atomic-bombs taken to the extreme!!! Muscular systems that contract with the power of nukes!

In an all out fight, unless you have the power to move with the speed of a nuclear explosion, which is light-speed or faster, you don't have chance of keeping pace with characters like Hulk and Thor through pure speed.

"Power" is how quickly you can move an object over a distance, the rate at which you do "work". P= w/t

"Work" is exerting force on an object and moving it over a distance. W= F x d

"Force" is mass multipled by an objects rate of motion. F= m x a

B. And Spider-man catching missles with his web doesn't count as a speed feat for Spider-man

Spider-man used webbing. Doesn't count as a speed feat for Spider-man himself since Spider-man's body does not move at the same rate as his webbing. That's why he has to use webbing for that kind of thing(catching missles). Spider-man's body doesn't move at anywhere near missile-speed.

Spider-man's reaction time is good but it is certainly not missile-speed.

And so Thor and Hulk are just a very fast guys and do not have to rely on agility and fighting skill to dodge and block super-fast projectiles.

As for the Hulk while in battles....

Hulk has never said: "Oh, they're too fast for me! The Hulk has, however, expressed annoyance over cowardly hit-and-run tactics. Jumping within range to attack and then jumping out of range.

And keep in mind Hulk doesn't fight lower-level characters the same way he fights characrters on his power-level like Abomination, Thor, Hercules, Silvers Surfer, Jueggernaut, Hyperion, Sentry, etc.

When Hulk and Thor engage characters on the level of Spider-man, Wolverine and Thing , the punches they throw won't be same. The mere secondary air-shockwaves coming from a serious Hulk-punch/Thor-punch would be enough to kill those guys(like the secondary super-sonic shockwaves from nuclear explosions). Hulk and Thor wouldn't even have to make anywhere close to a direct hit in order to kill them. The secondary shockwave of an atomic bomb starts at about 184 Km/s or Mach 540!

Hulk also lets himself get hit all the time because he's extremely tough in the first place and any apparent damage he may isn't permanent kind and won't destroy him and he becomes stronger according the strain of combat.

As for long distance travel speed......

Hulk super-powered muscles allow him to run and jump at speeds far greater than the finest human athlete.

His speed is limited by the strength of the ground. Once he reaches a certain speed his legs punch through and the destroy the ground around him which gives him no friction to run on.

Making tremedous jumps in orderto travel overcome this limitation partially but even with jumping he is similarly limited in long distance travel speed due to the overwhelming pressure his full strength puts on the ground.

Examples:

It would be perfectly reasonable to assume that a 8' tall, 1000+ lbs. monster would be a slow lumbering beast. However, from the beginning, Savage Hulk has always possessed superhuman speed belying his enormous size. His feats of agility and speed are typically accompanied by these sorts of descriptions, "Suddenly, moving with blinding speed which, seems impossible for one so huge..." FromIncredible Hulk#4:

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The same happens when he fights the Fantastic Four, "Moving with unbelievable speed for one so huge..." From Fantastic Four #12:

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Later on when wrapped up by Mr. Fantastic, he escapes by spinning around like a tornado:

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In his rematch with Thing he once again begins "moving with surprising speed for one so huge..."inFantastic Four #25:

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He even ends up catching a fired artillery shell and "without stopping, in one smooth, continuous motion, he spins around, using the momentum of the hurtling shell to help propel his giant frame... he releases it" inFantastic Four #26:

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Special weapons and tactics squads try firing bazookas at Savage Hulk "but unfortunately, that 'somethin' isn't quite as fast as the Hulk!" FromIron Man #131:

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He's snatched rockets and missiles out of the air in Giant-Size Defenders #2, Incredible Hulk #245 and Incredible Hulk vol.2 #101:

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Savage Hulk has even batted artillery shells in Incredible Hulk #208:

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And caught a S.H.I.E.L.D hovercar in incredible hulk #298:

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Here he thwarts a crowd of minions, "moving with uncanny speed for one so huge, the green behemoth suddenly tears up an entire section of the stone floor" inTales to Astonish #76:

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Savage Hulk confronts a barrage of artillery, "[m]oving with lumbering speed that belies his massive frame, the awesome Hulk thunders toward a gigantic boulder, a hundred feet away" inTales to Astonish#82:

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He has been described as having "lightning-fast reflexes" in Marvel Feature #3 and Incredible Hulk#276:

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Comet Man is amazed, "How can he be that big and move so fast?!" From Comet Man #3:

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And His speed is remarked upon by his fellow Avengers as well in incredible Hulk #316:

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Savage Hulk grabs his enemy "with a swiftness that defies belief!" From Incredible Hulk #264:

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The Mandarin notes Hulk's incredible reflexes well in Incredible Hulk #107:

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Doctor Doom is quick to note, "you are far more agile than I anticipated from one of your size!" FromIncredible Hulk #144:

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Even the amazing Spider-Man throughout his career can only evade Savage Hulk for so long as shown early on in Amazing Spider-Man #120, and later on inPeter Parker: Spider-Man#14:

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He can actually perform surprisingly agile swordplay in Incredible Hulk vol.2 #92:

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A point-blank ambush by Wolverine is deftly blocked by Savage Hulk in Wolverine Origins #28:

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Savage Hulk is one of the few people who's easily snatched Cap's shield throw, from Avengers vol.3 #75:

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And just as easily, Joe Fixit-Hulk bats down tanks shells and catches Hawkeye's arrows and Spiderman's webbing in The Order #1, Hulk Smash Avengers #4 and Incredible Hulk #349:

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Hulk smacks down projectiles from the Villain Boomerang before they could even explode in incredible hulk #274:

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Speedsters like Quicksilver and Bluestreak get swatted away in Incredible Hulk #175, The Order #3, Last Hero standing vol 1. #1-5, and Incredible Hulk #369:

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He even smacks down Peitro(Quicksilver) when he is possessed by a god in Mighty Avengers #23:

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Savage Hulk confronts a barrage of artillery, "[m]oving with lumbering speed that belies his massive frame, the awesome Hulk thunders toward a gigantic boulder, a hundred feet away" inTales to Astonish#82:

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Hulk runs down and catches two soldiers wore armor (similar to Iron-Man) developed by Tony Stark and U.S. Armed Forces in Marvel Salutes the US Military #1-10:

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One of Savage Hulk's most defining characteristics is his ability to make gargantuan leaps that cross miles, from Incredible Hulk #3&6 and Tales to Astonish #66 & 67, incredible Hulk #272-273, #274:

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Which isn't surprising considering he's been measured at 473 mph in Incredible Hulk Annual 2000:

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While tracking Savage Hulk's movement across the United States, Black Panther notes that he'll be in California in mere hours in Incredible Hulk#128:

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He travels faster than jetliners and has crossed the China sea here in Incredible Hulk #5:

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Even more than that, he has crossed the entire Pacific Ocean by jumping from isle to isle in Tales to Astonish #68:

The pacific ocean is 8,637 miles from north to south and 1,100 miles from east to west. Hulk shows he can jump thousands of miles in a single bound.

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Which may seem nonsensical but his transcontinental leaping abilities reappear in Incredible Hulk vol.2 #24:

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And these leaps only require "scarcely more than a twitch" of his muscles in Incredible Hulk #314:

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A Wakandan experiences this firsthand noting, "Bruce jumped nearly a mile up into the sky, at an angle that, once it decayed -- would bring him down hundreds of miles from where we left mere seconds before!"Which is topped by another leap that covered "nearly a thousand miles this time" in Incredible Hulkvol.2 #33:

100 miles per second is mach 472. 1000 miles per second is mach 4,792. 1 mach is equal to he speed of sound. Hulk jumped going hundreds and thousands of times the speed of sound with ease.

Hulk has been shown to easily jump vertically at a speed of mach 24, earth's escape velocity, which is the same as 18,000 miles per hour or 5 miles per second. By the time Hulk had traveled 1 mile vertically he had also traveled 1000 miles horizontally, all in the time of 1 second or a fraction of a second.

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He can overtake a fighter jet with a leap "like it was standin still" in Incredible Hulk #206 and 258:

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He's caught up to missiles with his leaps in Tales to Astonish #61 and incredible hulk #5:

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And intercontinental rockets in Incredible Hulk #117:

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And aircrafts in Incredible Hulk 157-158, incredible hulk #298 and incredible #Hulk 409:

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Savage Hulk makes it to the top of Mount Olympus in a single leap in Hulk Vs Hercules: When Titans Collide #1:

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The Hulk leaps to escape velocity,into outer space in Incredible Hulk #254 and Incredible Hulk Annual#10:

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"For an object to escape the earths atmoshphere, it must have an initial velocity of Mach 34. Reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity. For Hulk to perform such a feat, his legs would have to accelerate and propel someone of his weight, which is approximately 2000 pounds, at even greater speeds than so. It is absolutely impossible for the Hulk to perform a feat with strength without the proportional acceration of an object (his body) as well." source (SlimJ87D

Hulk rushes the police in Incredible Hulk #206-207:

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Jack of Hearts remarks, "It's impossible! Nothing alive can move that fast!" From Incredible Hulk #214:

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And again, Hulk frequently uses his super-leaps to very quickly close the distance between him and his foes as shown In incredible Hulk in #117 and mostly of every Hulk comic:

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Hulk is also a good swimmer. it has been noted that he can swim at a speed of 80 knots which is over 90 mph. From Incredible Hulk vol.2 #33:

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He's even battled Namor many times in the deepest parts of the ocean incredible Hulk #118:

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dum529001

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#72  Edited By dum529001

@green_skaar said:

@sog7dc said:

@cor_tsar: It's not dumb If you're both faster and stronger than your opponent. To say hulk could land a blow is to say he could read every medical text ever written in five minutes. To say he could land a blow is to say he could land a barrage of blows on someone like Orion like superman did. Hulk can do neither of those things. Could hulk tag Barry Allen? Not at all. Superman did. There is no eventuality that hulk could hit superman without PIS

I disagree. It's not like the only people that have ever and will ever hit Superman have to be able to "read every medical text..." or "land a barrage of blows on X..."

The first statment above statement is so funny for being so wrong.

@cor_tsar said:

@sog7dc: Same as the person above me, all Hulk has to do is throw a punch fast at a big blue/red blur(which would be going slower to him than us). Hulk's good at throwing fast punches, Hulk's strong, this equates to great easy counter. Remember Hulk moves faster than he thinks. I could also bring in the old Wonder Woman faster than Superman scan to prove the point. Hulk's also been showing some impressive mind reaction speeds, though i doubt he thinks as fast as he can throw a punch. Hulk can't do the things you said, but he can throw a fast strong punch at a character that would stupidly just rush someone. It's like he's asking to be countered.

Interesting.

@lvenger said:

You pit Hulk up against a guy who can beat him on his own against most Hulk incarnations (New 52 lacks the combat speed and durability feats to take an even majority over WBH) and a prep master/smartest man in the DCU who's prepped for more powerful beings than Hulk? Team all the way.

@lvenger said:

@cor_tsar: How is tagging Thor a speed feat? He's street level combat speed at best. Hulk's tagged faster street levelers like Spider-Man before but Superman is in a whole other category. As for Superman's speed feats, he has 3 instances of speed blitzing so Hulk's gonna be hard pressed to tag him

Blitzes Hal without him knowing what's hit him

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Blitzes a rock tunnel whilst weakened by Lex's attack on him in the previous issue

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Speed blitzes Orion

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Again, this trump card of DC powerhouses comes into play. Tagging Spider-Man is one thing. Tagging Superman is another feat altogether and Hulk doesn't have the feats or showcasings to consistently do that.

Low-baling at its finest. Ignoring plenty of facts and context in order to make just to make an argument that favors your side, trying to showcase lies and misinformation as if it is the truth.

@lvenger said:

You pit Hulk up against a guy who can beat him on his own against most Hulk incarnations (New 52 lacks the combat speed and durability feats to take an even majority over WBH) and a prep master/smartest man in the DCU who's prepped for more powerful beings than Hulk? Team all the way.

Regualr Savage Hulk wold give Superman plenty of trouble. Superman is nowhere near World Breaker Hulk in any way.

Her's why....

Zom possesed Strange(Zom is a Demon who dwarfs Doctor Strange, Dormmamu and his sister, Umar, in power) literally blew gaping holes through World War Hulk and he'd heal them in the space of panels, from World War Hulk#4:

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World War Hulk was powerful enough to match an all-out Sentry, a guy with the power of a million exploding suns, blow for blow in World War Hulk #5:

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Everything done in the World War Hulk storyline is Hulk holding back with his punches. Amadeus Cho confirms that with his abilities in Hulk Vs Hercules: When Titans Collide #1:

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There isn't really anybody in comics who gets a second wind like World War Hulk. After Bruce and Bob beat the alter-egos out of each other, a spike of anger just brings back a seemingly exhausted World War Hulk to full power... and beyond. From World War Hulk #5:

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and there he is going "worldbreaker"...

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As he ascends towards Worldbreaker levels, the shockwaves from even a single footstep are felt for hundreds of miles around, tossing helicopters in the air, and causing nearly irreparable damage to the bedrock of the Eastern Seaboard.

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Even after he allowed the heroes to drain his gamma away, the damage he caused would have split Manhattan Island in half. From World War Hulk: Aftersmash#1:

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The consequences of the Worldbreaker's shockwaves are unequivocally continental in scale. Amadeus Cho reminds Red She-Hulk, "I know. I'm not worried about you... just the rest of the freaking continent." FromIncredible Hulks #632:

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And again in Son of Hulk #11-12

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(Incredible Hulks #610-611)

It's made clear that the "worldbreaker" power-level wasn't just a one time feat. When he's pushed towards Worldbreaker levels again, the shockwaves produced are felt once again throughout the Eastern Seaboard mirroring his previous footstep. From Incredible Hulk #610:

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(Incredible Hulk #630-635)

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And Again....

So we know, at worldbreaker power-levels, the Hulk ( and red she-hulk) make the earth quake merely by standing and could sink continents with a footstep.

obviously there's a difference in the amount of effort put into a punch and a footstep. Punches pack way more power and proportion speed than footsteps.

Merely by clashing with Red She-hulk, WB Hulk indirectly......

A. destroyed a planet

AND

B. vaporized a guy on Silver Sufer power-level, as well as guys who rivaled Hulk at base-levels, and the Mindless ones(he even lets the guys attack him so he can amp up that much faster!!).

None of these things were even remotely the focal point of WB Hulk's attack, so they were taking the smallest effects of Hulk's(and Red She-hulk's) power, but they were still destroyed. That's just shows how insanely powerful WB Hulk is.

In a fight, when like-forces collide, 99.99 percert of that force should cancel out between the two forces. Hulk has been shown rocking and decimating planets and universes merely by the collision of him and their opponent's power. The tiny bit of leftover force from their collsion was enough to decimate planets and universes!!!! That's just crazy powerful.

It's plain to see that worlbreaker Hulk's power is far above the average planet-busting powerhouse.

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World War Hulk tosses Fin Fang Foom backwards with such force that Umar's enchanted shields are shattered in Incredible Hulks #634:

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Despite the Red Hulk having forcibly absorbed some of World War Hulk's gamma energies, he is defeated by a final thunderclap in Hulk #24:

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Hulk's first fights with the Red-Hulk

Red Hulk beats down Uatu, the Watcher through his ability of absorbing energy from other Super-powered Beings enhance his own strength in Hulk #4.

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Hulk vs Red Hulk(First fight) in Hulk #4

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Red Hulk beats down Odinforce-Thor in the same way he beat the Watcher in Hulk #5

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Hulk finally beats Red Hulk in Hulk #6

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Here are Hulk's fights with his Son, Skaar, as the "World Breaker":

Savage Hulk vs Skaar, from Skaar: Son of Hulk #12:

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World War Hulk (Worldbreaker) vs Skaar, from Incredible Hulk #610-11:

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Lvenger

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#73  Edited By Lvenger

@dum529001: Will you knock it off please? You're a terrible debater, a fine example of taking out of context scans, falsely applied science and aggressive ranting into incoherent fallacious arguments. I've dealt with your arguments on numerous occasions so many times it isn't funny so knock it off please. You only show yourself up with your stupid lowballing comments and ridiculous arguments that make you seem all the more the fool for making them. Keep your set in stone backwards ways to yourself as I've had enough of debunking your scans time after time after time. It gets a bit old showing you up.

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#74  Edited By Bruticus112

@dum529001:

of course Hulk is powerful man. But he's not insanely fast.

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Superman solos

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Supermanfan121

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Superman can take hulk easily and has had much experience with lex luthor so his only real challenge would be hulk and therefore superman beats them

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Superman can take hulk easily and has had much experience with lex luthor so his only real challenge would be hulk and therefore superman beats them

BS

Banner with celestrial tech and know how on how to use it crushes them very easily.

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Team stomps

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Technically, I believe Hulk can take both. Superman has a lesser version of Hulks strength and Luthors suit can act like Iron mans hulk buster. This calls for an unpredictable outcome. However I believe that if Lex and supes are able to present a wide arsenal of different attacks they will win. Having superpowers is one thing, using them is another.

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dum529001

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@lvenger said:

@dum529001: Will you knock it off please? You're a terrible debater, a fine example of taking out of context scans, falsely applied science and aggressive ranting into incoherent fallacious arguments. I've dealt with your arguments on numerous occasions so many times it isn't funny so knock it off please. You only show yourself up with your stupid lowballing comments and ridiculous arguments that make you seem all the more the fool for making them. Keep your set in stone backwards ways to yourself as I've had enough of debunking your scans time after time after time. It gets a bit old showing you up.

According to you, whatever argument isn't on your side is wrong simply becasue you say it is.

You have nothing to prove me worng with.

Calling my argument gargbage is the best you can do becasue you can't logically explain exactly how I am wrong.

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wolviex

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#82  Edited By wolviex

Superman can in fact solo this. His combo is perfect for taking down beasts such as the Hulk. In fact, I think he was meant as the ultimate superhero in the first place.

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wolviex

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On the other hand Hulk can take almost anything. If he so much as touches superman during the battle supes is dead. If Lex gets too close, he's dead. My point here is that if Supes and Lex can keep their distance it's a sure win for the team.

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Lexj7

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Hulk wins, Lex will stab Superman in the back.

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Cjdavis103

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#85  Edited By Cjdavis103

What about the celestial tech that Banner has accesses to?

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the_red_viper

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#86  Edited By the_red_viper  Moderator

Hulk dies a horrible death at the hands of Superman and Lex.

But of course, Superman did not want to kill Hulk. Lex has planned to kill him all along without Superman knowing.

Why did Lex want to kill him do you ask?

In Superman's first battle with Hulk, they unintentionally destroyed an arcade.

A very special arcade.

In that very arcade, 3 decades ago, Lex Luthor has achieved his very first feat of prowess and intelligence and took his first step toward power:

He beat the high score on the Pacman machine.

Not a soul has beaten Lex's score ever since.

This high score was Lex Luthor's pride and joy. It was the one thing that pushed him. That made him go all the way. Whenever things looked bad, Lex reminded himself of the Pacman machine, and it gave him the willpower and motivation to move on.

Destroying this arcade has of course destroyed the Pacman machine. Such a thing could not be forgiven. So, using Superman to get to The Hulk more easily, Lex has planned his revenge.

But... there are two to blame for this. Superman was part of the battle that has doomed Lex's high score as much as Hulk did. And Lex Luthor simply cannot, will not, let that go that easily.

He will get his revenge and finish The Man of Steel once and for all.

He of course knew that the righteous Superman cannot let the death of Hulk go unpunished. He has anticipated Superman turning his aggresions toward him once the fight is over.

Secretly, before the fight, Lex has equipped his power-suit with a state of the art radiation projector.

He had loaded this projector with Kryptonite. Lots of it.

Once The Hulk was killed, Lex activated his radiation projector. When the angry Superman approached him, the effect of the Kryptonite brough him to his knees.

On his knees, coughing blood, Superman felf a metal hand grabbing his head. The hand ascended, and Superman found him hanging in the air, face to face with his oldest, most bitter enemy. In the corner of his eye he saw Lex weilding a knife in his other hand.

The knife had a green blade.

Superman knew this was the end of the road. All he managed to do was utter: "I... trusted you..."

"Waka Waka, motherf*cker," said Lex, and with a roar, thrusted the kryptonite knife straight into the heart of The Man of Tomorrow.

Lex held the dead body of the most powerful being on earth for a long moment. After all this time, victory was finally his. He let that sink in.

With adrenalin rushing through his veins, Lex grabbed Superman's cape, and started toward the Lexcorp building-the symbol of his success and the tallest building in the city. He flew high, to the roof of the building. He then proceeded to grab his now dead adversary by the waist...

and impaled him right down on the building's tallest antenna, as an everlasting symbol for all those who question the true capabilities of Alexander Joseph Lothor.

In the following days, while the JLA is still on their vacation in Vegas, Lex has travelled to the edges of Earth and outside of them and picked the bitterest, most ruthless enemies of the JLA, among them Ra's al-Ghul, Zoom, Sinestro, Deathstroke, Circe, Ma'alefa'ak, Black Adam and more.

Lex has of course anticipated the attack that the JLA mounted on the Lexcorp building a week after his greatest victory of all time.

With the help of his secretly formed league of villains, Earth's greates heroes fell. The battle was long and hard, and Metropolis was destroyed in the process. But, amidst all the ruins of the gret city, the Lexcorp building stood tall and proud, the lifeless body of Kal-El of Krypton impaled upon its tallest antenna. The birds have long since abandoned any attempt at feeding off Superman's never-rotting corpse.

With the JLA now dead, Lex and his allies mounted attacks on some of the world's greatest cities: Washington D.C, New York, Paris, Rome, Jerusalem, Moscow, and so on. The killing rampage was stopped only when the UN has conceded to name Lex and his allies the new rulers of the world.

But Lex Luthor trusts no one. In the 24 hours following the declaration of the UN, Lex has secretly picked off every single member of his alliance.

Now, being the sole ruler of the pale wreckage of Planet Earth, Lex Luthor has named Metropolis the capital of the world. He has replaced the statue of liberty with a statue of himself, carved out of solid Kryptonite. The great pyramids of Giza were destroyed and replaced with 500 foot-tall marble statues of the four ghosts in the Pac Man games-Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde. The Eiffel tower was destroyed and replaced with a giant "L". The Cristo Redntor statue was replaced with a skeleton wearing Superman's uniform. The Wailing Wall was brought down and instead was built a huge monitor screen-500 feet wide and 500 feet tall-and at its base was a joystick. Thus was built the world's largest Pacman machine.

All games-whether they were video games, sports games, or any other form of game-were made illegal and Pacman was made the only legal sport in the world. Any man, woman or child caught playing anything that isn't Pacman was to be executed. Once a year, the PWC (Pacman World Cup) was hosted in the capital city of Metropolis. Men and women from all around the world, now known as "Planet Lex", came to participate in this thrilling event.

But no one has ever beaten Lex Luthor. He was the Usaine Bolt, the Michael Phelps, the Babe Rith and the Lionel Messi of Pacman. Over the years, the trophies stacked so high upon his shelves that Lex ordered to rebuild the White House in what once was Washington D.C and has put all his trophies there, as well as many other artworks and rare items related to Pacman. The building was renamed "The Museum of Pacman" and was opened to the public in a marvelous ceremony.

Lex Luthor has reigned upon the world with a Kryptonite Fist. Researching the old works of his former ally, Ra's al-Ghul, Lex has discovered the secret of eternal life hidden in the Lazarus Pits. He has managed to replicate the reviving effects of the pits and has created his very own eternal-life potion.

Years after assuming reign over the planet, Lex and the army of Planet Lex mounted an assault on Oa. They killed the guardians and the members of the corps after a long battle, and Lex has claimed the power of the Green Lantern as his own. He built a new power-suit, that was fused with a power battery. Needless to say, his incredible willpower and amazing technology helped him achieve feats that not even the most powerful Green Lanterns have achieved.

Lex Luthor's reign was strong as steel, and to this very day, Lex Luthor sits in his office in the top floor of the Lexcorp building, the lifeless body of his most bitter adversary impaled upon an antenna above him.

He has won.

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Lvenger

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@dum529001: Then let me put this in terms you'll understand. Stop trying to pick bones with me because I'm one of the better known advocates of the speedblitz over raw power argument in this fight. Your debating style is utterly ridiculous and has been shown to be nonsensical on multiple occasions by myself, CitizenBane and more. The only person who doesn't think he's wrong is you because you have it in your head that your arguments are infallible to any challenges when they're far from logically consistent in the slightest. So stop calling me a lowballer just because my points disagree with you and you can't get me to back down from your challenges

@m_man said:

@dum529001:

Really amazing scans and feats. I absolutely need to take note on some of them for future reference. A lot of people here seem to view Hulk as nothing more than brute strength but there's so much more to him and his character.

Really? Posting a wall of scans that only show Hulk's power makes him a good debater without strong arguments to back them up? Really?

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Ancient_0f_Days

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@m_man: I think Lvenger is just a little strung due to fact that dum529001 is not one to be taken seriously in any way shape or form, in hindsight I'm sure he understands that you only complemented the quantity and quality of the scans themselves but he was still focused on the one presenting them and the purpose for which they were being presented.

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Parallax_Hal_Jordan

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Team wins.

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Lvenger

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#93  Edited By Lvenger

@m_man said:

@lvenger:

You have to be joking right now. When the hell did I say he was a good debater? Your comments seem to be predicated on some weird assumption that I know what the hell is going on between you two. I was merely complimenting the amass of feats that seem to accurately portray the best of what Hulk has to offer regardless of whether or not it has any bearing on the outcome of the topic at hand but surely it should at least be considered? Further more, based on what I've seen, all you got so far are declarative statements in response. Surely the self-proclaimed "better known advocate of the speedblitz over raw power argument" can do better?

Apologies if I came across as too intrusive. Your original post did not have the expansion that this one does and I assumed it was based on the wall of scans he posted. My point was the one Ancient has said already. Anyone can post a wall of scans but the arguments linked with them are another story. For the record, my "better known advocate of the speedblitz over raw power" thing wasn't some self inflated ego gesture I can assure you. On these types of threads, I do tend to make the case for speed and versatility in certain powerhouses that are usually DC characters over the seeming raw power edge their opponents may have. That's all I meant by that comment.

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dum529001

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#95  Edited By dum529001

@lvenger said:

@dum529001: Will you knock it off please? You're a terrible debater, a fine example of taking out of context scans, falsely applied science and aggressive ranting into incoherent fallacious arguments. I've dealt with your arguments on numerous occasions so many times it isn't funny so knock it off please. You only show yourself up with your stupid lowballing comments and ridiculous arguments that make you seem all the more the fool for making them. Keep your set in stone backwards ways to yourself as I've had enough of debunking your scans time after time after time. It gets a bit old showing you up.

Like I said before. You never prove yourself.

All you do is lowball and when someone disagrees you say that they're a horrible debater while you haven't been able to prove your points.

What you say about Hulk is wrong. Its illogical and disproven by comics. You have nothing to back you up besides favoritism of one character over another which doesn't count for anything.

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Ancient_0f_Days

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You never prove yourself.

What you say about Hulk is wrong. Its illogical and disproven by comics. You have nothing to back you up besides favoritism of one character over another which doesn't count for anything.

You have to be talking about yourself...really....there's no one else who fits this but you.

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The_Titan_Lord

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Hulk. lol

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leonkarlen123

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Lex luthor alone if he gets 3 months prep