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#1 Edited by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk

vs

J'onn J'onzz

Hulk is angry because... oh, who knows why. He's just really angry. J'onn is angry because he just found out someone stole all his Oreos and he cant get more.

Rules: Random encounter, no BFR, each thinks the other is the cause of his anger. Basically, both are somewhat bloodlusted. Win by KO or death.

J'onn is limited in the following ways:

  • same combat speed as Hulk
  • no flight, heat vision, mental powers, intangibility/phasing, or invisibility

Who wins?

#2 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what happens when you steal J'onns cookies.

#3 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

so hulk gets all his powers. and MMH gets all of his taken away except for 1 while another gets drastically reduced?

#4 Edited by ULTRAstarkiller (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

J'onn stomps

#5 Posted by russellmania77 (14539 posts) - - Show Bio

nice, idk how a crppled j'onn would win

#6 Posted by Saren (25272 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk under these conditions.

Moderator
#7 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

so hulk gets all his powers. and MMH gets all of his taken away except for 1 while another gets drastically reduced?

J'onn still has plenty of power and powers to use here.

#8 Edited by dondave (34232 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk

Online
#9 Edited by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

What is Hulk's combat speed? Can you define it exactly? Just asking what you think it is.

Here's what i think.....

#1

Strength and speed are go together. They are one and the same.

THE DEFINITION OF "FORCE" IS THE OBJECT'S MASS MULTIPLIED BY ITS RATE OF MOTION.

FORCE IS THE ACCELERATION OF MASS. HOW MUCH FORCE PRODUCED DEPENDS ON AN OBJECT'S MASS AND ITS ACCELERATION.

Muscle power is all about the speed of muscle contraction. Muscles put out power by stretching and then rapidly shortening like rubber bands.

When you throw a punch or a kick, the power of the strike directly correlates to its rate of motion/speed. The more acceleration, the quicker and more powerful the strike.

Hulk has great power and his body weight is little in comparison to that power, therefore, he has great speed.

Great power = Great speed

Gamma rays travel at he speed of light. Hulk is a gamma-charged monster. He's extremely fast.

The Body's Durability level is what holds it together. Durability is a required secondary power for superhumans of any given power-level. It's especially important for the WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction) in humanoid form.

The muscle and skeletal tissue and all other body tissues are built with the durability that is necessary to withstand putting out such great forces. If they couldn't, the person's body would fall apart.

Superhuman bodies are going to be more dense, denser than a normal human body, and which allows it to handle the pressures it puts on itself as it goes against the force of other objects, able to withstand their own rebounding force or forces that are akin to theirs. As we know Hulk, Thor, Hercules, SIlver Surfer Superman, Thing, Namor and the like have a body that is far denser than a normal human's. Even Those such as Spider-man have superhuman durability but it isn't at the level of the powerhouses who are more powerful than a locomotive or an atomic bomb, and why should it be? Spider-man isn't packing as much power as those guys are.

It's the same on a human level. When you work-out constantly enough your muscles thicken. The reason muscles thicken when you workout is so they can exert more energy without being torn up in the process. The body is adjusting to the constant and abnormal energy output of the muscles by making them tougher to keep them from getting torn up.

Not to mention....

Gamma rays bursts come from the most violent cosmic events in the universe, such as a sun collapsing in on itself, clashing neutron stars, black holes, etc.

unlike supernovas, gamma ray bursts do not explode in a spherical motion but a jet-stream motion.

Gamma rays burst produce as much energy as the sun does in its entire billion year life cycle. The sun is like a trillion megaton bombs exploding every second. That would make the sun's total energy approximately That's about 31 nontillion 360 octillion megatons.

Any character with a body power on this level should be extremely fast.

#2

For those who wish to deny the simple laws of motion, despite what's even blatantly shown in comics time and time again.....

When did simple things like "F=m x a" not apply?

When know Hulk doesn't weigh any more than a car so when he starts doing all this hard-hitting stuff, we logically know that he's traveling at great speeds.

Since we know force is about mass and acceleration, and we know that Hulk is not all about mass, we can assume he has great acceleration in order to put the great forces that he does.

Its not like Hulk get his power from increasing his weight.The Hulk just increases his density and gamma-energy.

Are you saying Hulk increases his weight while staying at a never-changing rate of motion in order to put out greater forces?

Are you saying the Hulk grows millions of pounds in order to resist the force of a million pounds? Are you saying Hulk gets as massive as the earth in order to bear it? Now that's ridiculous.

#3

Some characters are more known for standing and taking any punishment and showing how tough they but it doesn't mean they aren't fast. When they actually get around to doing something, they are certainly fast, and are able to hit their mark.

Just because a characters does not dart around 100 percent of the time does mean they aren't fast.

The characters that dart around the most are the ones who are the most vulnerable. If they don't more constantly dart around, their life is in danger more often than not.

Fighting is not just about being on the move, but also knowing the exact moment to move. Fighting isn't for fools. You have to be smart.

#4

Individual power feats are good and necessary but they aren't the make-up of everything.

A well know, older, more used, or more popular characters can have a greater quantity of feats but if some fights and is able to fight on equal terms with them in virtually every way, then it can be assume that are powers on equal.

If one characters not only matches but also overcomes another character, fighting on completely equal terms, then are they not more powerful?

Would someone say that Superman is greater than Doomsday because Superman has more feats? The only feats Doomsday has is roaming the comos fighting various extraterrestrial armies, and then coming to earth an fighting Superman and the entire justice league. Does Superman having more feats make him greater than Doomsday? Of course not. They were either evenly matched in combat or Superman was outmatched by Doomsday.

Heroes are bound to have more feats than villains but does that take away from we've seen the villains do, even though they aren't in as much constant action as the hero? The answer is NO.

Like i said before individual feats are well and good but stop obsessing over them.

In conclusion.....

The main point of this entire post is to urge people to use some common sense. Don't be a illogical fanboy. Don't deny whats right in front of your eyes and as plain as day. If you're going to be a fanboy of anything, please be a reasonable fanboy.

See things for what they are and not as you want to see them. Illogical fanboys hate the truth and try to make up their own reality, apart from the true one. They try to convince themselves and others that what they say and think is real but to someone who can truly see, they are just walking around with their eyes shut, clothed with a bind-fold, with their hands covering that as well, but wondering why it so dark and why they keep bumping into things.

#10 Posted by Saren (25272 posts) - - Show Bio

The main point of this entire post is to urge people to use some common sense. Don't be a illogical fanboy. Don't deny whats right in front of your eyes and as plain as day. If you're going to be a fanboy of anything, please be a reasonable fanboy.

See things for what they are and not as you want to see them. Illogical fanboys hate the truth and try to make up their own reality, apart from the true one. They try to convince themselves and others that what they say and think is real but to someone who can truly see, they are just walking around with their eyes shut, clothed with a bind-fold, with their hands covering that as well, but wondering why it so dark and why they keep bumping into things.

The irony contained within this statement is so thick it has acquired sentience and is making threatening gestures at me.

Moderator
#11 Edited by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

What is Hulk's combat speed? Can you define it exactly? Just asking what you think it is.

It doesnt matter what it is, what matters here is that J'onns combat speed is normalized to match Hulk's. Otherwise J'onn would just blitz the crap out of Hulk, and Hulk would not be able to tag him.

#1

Strength and speed are go together. They are one and the same.

Force, when applied to a body, can result in acceleration, as long as there is no matching counter-force. For example, if I push on a brick wall... the wall wont move, but I am still applying force to it. If I'm stronger I can apply more force, even though neither the wall nor my arms are moving. So, no, strength and speed not always tied together nor are they the same thing.

#2

For those who wish to deny the simple laws of motion, despite what's even blatantly shown in comics time and time again.....

When did simple things like "F=m x a" not apply?

Here you'e simply refuting what you said earlier. Force = Mass x Acceleration, not speed. So "strength and speed are the same" is simply not true.

In any case, while you can accelerate your fist faster if you have more force behind it, that's not what "combat speed" is. You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up while completely misunderstanding the rule of this battle. Combat speed is about how quickly the character can see and react to actions. Simply throwing fast punches does not constitute a fast combat speed.

#12 Edited by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

The initial thrust is about speed. What follows is not.

Also you be confusing three facts and mixing them up:

1. Whether its punching pushing or pulling, its all about acceleration.

2. it's also easier to hold your position, after you've pushed against something and your arms are full extended , than perform another lifting motion, therefore accelerating once again. Some pressure still remains when your holding your pose but not the same amount as it is when actually pushing. Holding your position is more about bone durability rather than muscle motion.

3. it takes more acceleration to destroy an object than it does to lift it.

Also....

And people don't have punches faster than their brain processing.

And "acceleration" is an object's "rate of motion". Its also synonymous to the word "speed".

The greater the movement, the greater the force.

#13 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

And people don't have punches faster than their brain processing.

What does this even mean?

@willpayton:

And people don't have punches faster than their brain processing.

Prove it.

The speed of a fist would be defined in meters/second. How many meters/second does a persons brain process at???

@willpayton:

And "acceleration" is an object's "rate of motion". Its synonymous to the word "speed".

You dont seem to know much about physics. I suggest you stop now.

@willpayton:

The greater the movement, the greater the force.

Wrong. An objects speed is related to its momentum. Momentum is not the same as force. Force is the derivative with respect to time of momentum.

\vec{F} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\vec{p}}{\mathrm{d}t},

\vec{F} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\vec{p}}{\mathrm{d}t} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\left(m\vec{v}\right)}{\mathrm{d}t},

\vec{F} = m\frac{\mathrm{d}\vec{v}}{\mathrm{d}t}.

\vec{F} =m\vec{a}.

In other words, the actual speed of an object is irrelevant to force. The force applied to an object simply determines its resultant acceleration, which is the rate of change of speed. An object moving at speed V does not have any "force", it has momentum.

#14 Posted by Shavo (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

even doe you crippled j'onn he still wins via speed blitz

#15 Edited by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

I think you misquoted me on accident in you first point.

And... Momentum is synonymous to "speed". Just like "acceleration" and "rate of motion."

Acceleration can refer to the change in speed but its also used interchangebly with speed as well.

mo·men·tum

/mōˈmentəm/

Noun
  1. The quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.
  2. The impetus gained by a moving object.
#16 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

Acceleration can refer to the change in speed but its also used interchangebly with speed as well.

Some ignoramuses maybe. But who the hell in the credible science community interchanges speed and acceleration?

#17 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

I think you misquoted me on accident in you first point.

And... Momentum is synonymous to "speed". Just like "acceleration" and "rate of motion."

Acceleration can refer to the change in speed but its also used interchangebly with speed as well.

mo·men·tum

/mōˈmentəm/

Noun
  1. The quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.
  2. The impetus gained by a moving object.

Momentum is not synonymous with speed, although it's correlated with speed. Actually, velocity, but whatever.

Acceleration is not, ever, used interchangeably with speed. Sorry, it's not. I guarantee it, and I know what I'm talking about.

#18 Edited by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

"Acceleration" and "speed" are used together because .....

"Acceleration" also assumes an object is at a state of rest and is made to change its speed to certain amount.

Speed will always involve acceleration unless you think everything goes at the same speed all the time.

For example:

The earth's gravity is defined as everything within earth's atmosphere being accelerated to fall towards the earth at a of speed of 9.8 m/s.

#19 Posted by Shawnbaby (10403 posts) - - Show Bio

Arguing about Real-World Physics is pointless when placed in a Comic Book World.

Neither DC or Marvel use anything more than the most rudimentary physics...and even then they often get it wrong. The power of the Narrative is much stronger than the Power of Physics in a Comic Book Scenario.

All the science in the world won't change the fact that for 50 years Hulk has been consistently portrayed as having a relatively slow Combat Speed.

#20 Posted by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

MMs regen takes this. Hulk can't put him down, jonn is all but bloodlusted here and he will eventually take him

#22 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yeah, J'onn still has shape shifting .... due to the fact that he has better regen (from goop to normal in seconds) and can still potentially shape shift his body he'd have a better shot, but since he is still reduced to Hulk's level (having no other powers besides shape shifting and nerfed speed) he doesn't have raw strength feats that I know of to match Hulk .... and since he is completely out of character and in a similar blind rage to Hulk, he wouldn't be able to conduct himself in his usual tactical and calculating manner. I don't think I see the point to this thread, it's just to put Hulk against a DC spoof version of himself ... making them equal in nearly every way takes the character even more out of character since now he is reduced to being a Hulk clone with no solid feats of strength to match the original.

#23 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

"Acceleration" and "speed" are used together because .....

"Acceleration" also assumes an object is at a state of rest and is made to change its speed to certain amount.

Speed will always involve acceleration unless you think everything goes at the same speed all the time.

For example:

The earth's gravity is defined as everything within earth's atmosphere being accelerated to fall towards the earth at a of speed of 9.8 m/s.

Much is this is simply wrong, but I'm not in the mood for giving physics lessons right now, so I'll leave it at that.

Oh yeah, J'onn still has shape shifting .... due to the fact that he has better regen (from goop to normal in seconds) and can still potentially shape shift his body he'd have a better shot, but since he is still reduced to Hulk's level (having no other powers besides shape shifting and nerfed speed) he doesn't have raw strength feats that I know of to match Hulk .... and since he is completely out of character and in a similar blind rage to Hulk, he wouldn't be able to conduct himself in his usual tactical and calculating manner. I don't think I see the point to this thread, it's just to put Hulk against a DC spoof version of himself ... making them equal in nearly every way takes the character even more out of character since now he is reduced to being a Hulk clone with no solid feats of strength to match the original.

J'onn still has all his powers (within the rules) and feats including all his strength feats. I dont see the problem.

#24 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

J'onn still has all his powers (within the rules) and feats including all his strength feats. I dont see the problem.

All his powers......besides intangibility, super speed, invisibility, flight, Martian vision, or telepathy ..... what's left I wonder? Shape shifting....yeah he totally has all his powers.....

J'onns strength feats aren't exactly defined as much as Hulks are and are not high end like Hulks, unless you count the planet tug with Superman and Wonder Woman.........other than that....what do you mean all his strength feats? Why don't you compare his strength feats to Hulks and see who comes up first...

#25 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

@willpayton said:

J'onn still has all his powers (within the rules) and feats including all his strength feats. I dont see the problem.

All his powers......besides intangibility, super speed, invisibility, flight, Martian vision, or telepathy ..... what's left I wonder? Shape shifting....yeah he totally has all his powers.....

He still has his strength, durability, shape shifting, endurance, regeneration, and super breath. What, 6 superpowers are not enough for you? He's fighting a guy who's main claim to fame is that he can hit hard, and you're bitching that I took away all the powers that would allow J'onn to curbstomp Hulk?

I mean all his strength feats. In any case, you seem to be obsessed with strength, but this isnt an arm-wrestling contest, it's a fight.

#26 Edited by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Strength feat of J'onn?

Call it non-canon anymore but as far as I'm concerned, New 52 power levels are the same as pre-52 unless stated otherwise.

#27 Posted by Shawnbaby (10403 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby:

Care to give a valid example?

Sure.

Here are two examples of Characters moving the Earth. Now, I won't argue the physics as to how it's possible for them to do such a thing...let's just take it as a given that they can and did do this thing.

What does Physics tell you would actually happen if the Earth were to suddenly be pulled off it's orbit and then reset? What kind of insane Seismic and Tidal effects would that have on the planet? How many Millions of people would die? What would happen to the Moon? These kinds of questions are never dealt with using actual physics. They simply put the Earth back where it's supposed to be and everything is all hunky dory.

How about Peak Humans, dodging, blocking or even deflecting gunfire? Is that something that even a human in peak physical condition can do in the Real World?

How about Batman bench pressing over 1000 lbs? Do you know what the Real World Record is for an unequipped Bench press is? About 715 lbs. and that's from a guy with a helluva lot more Muscle Mass than Bruce Wayne. To put that in Perspective, Scott Mendelson (the Record Holder) weighs about 360 lbs and benches 715 lbs...which isn't quite double his weight. Bruce Wayne, on the other hand, weighs about 220 lbs and he can bench press 1000 lbs...that's nearly 5 times his own weight. Well beyond Real-World Human physical limits for a man his size and build.

These are only some examples of why we shouldn't put too much stock in Science as it effects the Comic Book World. You can pretty much pick up any comic and see examples of Physics (or really any discipline of science) being completely ignored. The reason for this is simple: Comic Books aren't written by Scientists....they are written by Comic Book Writers.

#28 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

He still has his strength, durability, shape shifting, endurance, regeneration, and super breath. What, 6 superpowers are not enough for you? He's fighting a guy who's main claim to fame is that he can hit hard, and you're bitching that I took away all the powers that would allow J'onn to curbstomp Hulk?

Those aren't powers as much as they are stats....and I've never seen Martian Manhuter use super breath, so you threw that in there for S&Gs....Shape shifting and regen go hand in hand, so you cant really put them up like 2 different powers, even if you did....he's basically a Hulk clone, like I said. The ONLY power he has that separates himself from Hulk is shape shifting and MAYBE telekinesis, and he didn't even use either of them while he was in a coco withdrawl induced rage (he only used shape shifting to mimic a Hulk like form)....so yeah, he basically has nothing special besides better regen, like I said, you made him a simple clone and without his other powers, makes this thread Hulk vs Clone with less strength feats and better regen. If there's anything to bitch about, it's the fact that you have effectively broken the rule of "Giving characters certain 'buffs' or removing powers" ....

Giving Characters Certain 'buffs' or Removing Powers

I generally don't have a problem with this, as long as it's not overdone. Things like upgrading certain characters to a certain physical levels, or removing powers for two opponents to gauge hand-to-hand skills is fine as long as the fight is fair in the process. However, giving people like Hulk the Power Cosmic or people like Nightwing a Green Lantern ring is unacceptable because neither character has displayed the skill and/or competence to use such weapons/items. That said, it would be difficult (and in most cases, nearly impossible) for people to debate. Threads of this nature will be locked if it becomes an issue.

I mean all his strength feats. In any case, you seem to be obsessed with strength, but this isnt an arm-wrestling contest, it's a fight.

Obsessed with strength? What else are they gonna fight with? Laser beams? Nope, that's out. Telepathy? Nope, that's out. Speed? Nope. Telekinesis? Maybe, but it's not like it's gonna work on Hulk too long, or that a bloodlusted coo coo for cocoa puffs J'onn has even shown the capability to do so. Intangibility? Nope. Fighting tactics? Nope, the only thing they have on their minds are SMASH and CRUSH....doesn't sound like anything other than an arm wrestle type slug fest....oh yeah, shape shifting, which he never even used in cocoa mode, the only thing he has going for him is regen, that's it. You know it, stop bullsh*tting and get with the program. Those powers are what make the character, and even though I argue that he didn't use them during the cocoa incident, my point is that why would you put them in a fight together in the fist place if you know Jonn would stomp him on a regular, then use Jonn when he was portrayed in a joke based issue to deliberately mimic Hulk, basically, this form of Jonn doesn't even do anything other than lift a car or two and knock down a wall while chasing booster and Beetle. It can be assumed that he retains his powers, since his mental state dictates the use of his powers most of the time, he's not going to be using anything that requires too much thought like telepathy, telekinesis, intangibility, invisibility etc since he not only has the thought process and vocabulary of a caveman (or classic Hulk) but he is under the influence of a cookie addiction and blinded by rage (regen is instinct so it's safe to say that's a keeper). His use of shape shifting was limited to a bulky "Hulking" form since his thought process was "Crush" .... He was a Hulk clone and you basically made a pointless battle that would ultimately end in a stalemate or Jonn losing since he has basically none of his powers, his mental state is damaged heavily and his stats don't add up to who he's fighting besides regen which is the only thing he has going for him. Pointless battle is pointless.....

#29 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: You know why else we can't really try to apply real world logic to comics in most cases.......

#30 Edited by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

He still has his strength, durability, shape shifting, endurance, regeneration, and super breath. What, 6 superpowers are not enough for you? He's fighting a guy who's main claim to fame is that he can hit hard, and you're bitching that I took away all the powers that would allow J'onn to curbstomp Hulk?

Those aren't powers as much as they are stats....

Yes they are powers. He's got superhuman Strength... that's a power. He's got superhuman durability/invulnerability, that's a power. Superhuman endurance, that's a power. All those things are superhuman powers that he has, whether you think they are or not.

But, you dont have to take my word for it:

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/J'onn_J'onzz_(New_Earth)

http://www.comicvine.com/martian-manhunter/4005-2047/

You dont seem to understand that the outcome of a fight is determined by things other than just what the physical stats of a character are, or how much they can lift. And then you write up a paragraphs long rant about it... so, yeah, obsessed might be the word.

#31 Posted by TDK_1997 (14456 posts) - - Show Bio

Under these conditions J'onn should lose.

#32 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes they are powers. He's got superhuman Strength... that's a power. He's got superhuman durability/invulnerability, that's a power. Superhuman endurance, that's a power. All those things are superhuman powers that he has, whether you think they are or not.

I didn't say they weren't powers, I said they aren't powers AS MUCH as they are stats....besides Hulk seems to surpass him in strength, overall durability, endurance....You just don't seem to use the god given gift of SIGHT as much as most others, maybe had you been off your BS streak you'd have seen the problem with your post.

You dont seem to understand that the outcome of a fight is determined by things other than just what the physical stats of a character are, or how much they can lift. And then you write up a paragraphs long rant about it... so, yeah, obsessed might be the word.

Hulk has better striking power feats and better overall strength feats, in a battle where just about all other powers are GONE...but yeah, strength doesn't have as much to do with it....and since you say it doesn't, why don't you explain what does? What other ways does either win exactly? Ingenuity? LOL.....

So basically, that translates to, "I can't counter your argument so Im gonna avoid it altogether and deflect it at a false and irrelevant point."

Since I CLEARLY stated ....

......"my point is that why would you put them in a fight together in the fist place if you know Jonn would stomp him on a regular, then use Jonn when he was portrayed in a joke based issue to deliberately mimic Hulk, basically, this form of Jonn doesn't even do anything other than lift a car or two and knock down a wall while chasing booster and Beetle." ..."He was a Hulk clone and you basically made a pointless battle that would ultimately end in a stalemate or Jonn losing since he has basically none of his powers, his mental state is damaged heavily and his stats don't add up to who he's fighting besides regen which is the only thing he has going for him. Pointless battle is pointless....."

So not only did you BS and deflect my argument, but you put words in my mouth so that you didn't have to deal with the truth in my statements. My rant had nothing to do with an obsession with strength, hardly any of it was even based on the subject of strength. I only brought up strength when I was mentioning that Jonn has barely any that measure up to Hulks, and that they are not high end. That was all really, but I see how you operate.

#33 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

Yes they are powers. He's got superhuman Strength... that's a power. He's got superhuman durability/invulnerability, that's a power. Superhuman endurance, that's a power. All those things are superhuman powers that he has, whether you think they are or not.

I didn't say they weren't powers, I said they aren't powers AS MUCH as they are stats....besides Hulk seems to surpass him in strength, overall durability, endurance....You just don't seem to use the god given gift of SIGHT as much as most others, maybe had you been off your BS streak you'd have seen the problem with your post.

@willpayton said:

You dont seem to understand that the outcome of a fight is determined by things other than just what the physical stats of a character are, or how much they can lift. And then you write up a paragraphs long rant about it... so, yeah, obsessed might be the word.

Hulk has better striking power feats and better overall strength feats, in a battle where just about all other powers are GONE...but yeah, strength doesn't have as much to do with it....and since you say it doesn't, why don't you explain what does? What other ways does either win exactly? Ingenuity? LOL.....

So basically, that translates to, "I can't counter your argument so Im gonna avoid it altogether and deflect it at a false and irrelevant point."

Since I CLEARLY stated ....

@ancient_0f_days said:

......"my point is that why would you put them in a fight together in the fist place if you know Jonn would stomp him on a regular, then use Jonn when he was portrayed in a joke based issue to deliberately mimic Hulk, basically, this form of Jonn doesn't even do anything other than lift a car or two and knock down a wall while chasing booster and Beetle." ..."He was a Hulk clone and you basically made a pointless battle that would ultimately end in a stalemate or Jonn losing since he has basically none of his powers, his mental state is damaged heavily and his stats don't add up to who he's fighting besides regen which is the only thing he has going for him. Pointless battle is pointless....."

So not only did you BS and deflect my argument, but you put words in my mouth so that you didn't have to deal with the truth in my statements. My rant had nothing to do with an obsession with strength, hardly any of it was even based on the subject of strength. I only brought up strength when I was mentioning that Jonn has barely any that measure up to Hulks, and that they are not high end. That was all really, but I see how you operate.

If you were a girl...I'd tell you to get into my kitchen and start making me a sandwich cuz' I'm hungry woman!

#34 Edited by Shawnbaby (10403 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Proof Aliens Exist

Giorgio Tsoulkalos is, in actual fact, A Centauri.

#35 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

If you were a girl...I'd tell you to get into my kitchen and start making me a sandwich cuz' I'm hungry woman!

@ancient_0f_days: Proof Aliens Exist

Giorgio Tsoulkalos is, in actual fact, A Centauri.

#37 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

What? The kitchen is where women belong.

You're obviously trolling......

#38 Posted by MonsterStomp (15758 posts) - - Show Bio

J'onn takes it.

Online
#39 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

still going with j'onn

#40 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17243 posts) - - Show Bio

Normally J'onn would win, but under these conditions i find i possible for hulk to win.

#41 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

.

#42 Posted by Alak (923 posts) - - Show Bio

Since I'm no MMH expert, I'll use this battle as a means of improving my knowledge on him. According to his character page on CV, it says that he can increase his size and strength by absorbing mass from his surroundings. He can also make his skin as dense as he wills it to be. Is this information correct, and does it play into J'onn's favor in this match-up?

#43 Posted by New_World_Order (12452 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk.

#44 Posted by Immortal777 (6834 posts) - - Show Bio

doesn't mmh have size manipulation,density control and shape shifting powers.

#45 Posted by WillPayton (9135 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

Since I'm no MMH expert, I'll use this battle as a means of improving my knowledge on him. According to his character page on CV, it says that he can increase his size and strength by absorbing mass from his surroundings. He can also make his skin as dense as he wills it to be. Is this information correct, and does it play into J'onn's favor in this match-up?

and

#46 Posted by Alak (923 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, that's pretty awesome! I think he might be able to take Hulk then (or stalemate).

#47 Posted by MonsterStomp (15758 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Define combat speed. Does this mean all kinetic movement is equalized, as well as reflexes and travel speed?

New 52 will probably lose but I still see Pre-52 winning.

His strength is nearly or on par with Superman, same goes with durability. MMH's regen is better imo, and when he fights, he uses his brain. If travel speed is also equalized, the fight will be closer. Hulk has been beaten by people slower than him.

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#48 Edited by King Saturn (223796 posts) - - Show Bio

J'onn for the win

#49 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11707 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

and when he fights, he uses his brain.

Unless he's in a cocoa induced rampage like the OP suggests......

#50 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

It's sad that you had to nerf J'onn this much for this battle.... and get him hopped-up and addicted on something. I still say he wins.