Hulk and Thor versus Wonderwoman Aquaman and Flash

Hulk somehow lands in the DCU, he's raging and destroying the city. Superman is out of town, can WW Flash and Aquaman do anything to stop Hulk? No BFR, he has to be put down. To clarify, the first two fights are Hulk by himself

1) Random Encounter in the city

2) DC heroes get 1 day of prep

Bonus Fight - Hulk and Thor vs WW Flash Aquaman, same as scenario #1

Either Flash or Diana could solo both rounds. Aquaman and Iron Man aren't even in that weight class. Mismatch.

Is this current versions? Flash BFRs him

Current versions yeah.

You think Wonderwoman can solo the Hulk?..

Alright....let's add Thor to the Bonus fight instead of Tony.

There are plenty of people who think Hulk can beat Superman or at least give him a fight. Saying either Flash or Wonderwoman would solo the Hulk seems crazy to me...

@zauriel: yes she can.

@zauriel: which versions of the characters are you talking about?

@the_red_viper: you're a ridiculous Diana fanboy. Hulk and thor waaaaaay outmatch team 2

@harriso: ok.

Current versions of all characters.

I dont think current Flash can actually hurt the Hulk. The strongest person he has vibrated through is Jonn...and new 52 doesnt reaally have that many durability feats. He can still win via BFR

Likewise I dont think current Diana can beat the Hulk, without BFR

Current Aquaman certainly isnt beating the Hulk , unless he has gained some decent TP feats recently?

edit: Flash has also vibrated through Kara and the fortress , so there's that. I dunno, still not convinced he can actually hurt the hulk

There is no BFR. He has to be stopped.

@thegrayghost: been a while since I read the issue but didn't N52 Wonder Woman fight Kryptonians evenly? Namely Zod and Faora?

@the_red_viper: She sure did. She also matched superman, in the first JL arc, and outright beat supergirl , in Hel on earth

None of that changes the fact that she has zero feats in her own series to support her going toe to toe with a race whose individual members bench planets, upto and including failing to stop a plane from crashing in her own title

This might have changed since Azz left the title, but Im doubtful.

@thegrayghost: I also do not recall her fighting Clark in JL.

But I don't see what her solo run matters when she clearly has done these things in other runs.

@the_red_viper: It matters because it is the one monthly title released with the focus solely on her, written by a single writer for quite a while, and consistently showcasing a power level in this solo title far below what is required to make other feats credible

Put it this way. If post crisis Batman's solo titles were to be ignored, he would be a person who has reacted to Flashes several times, made the likes of Darkseid and Diana bleed with his kicks, matched Karate Kid for skill and flat out beaten the league in straight up combat

However, his consistent level in his own *monthly* ( or weekly given the number of titles) series , including stuff like struggling with bullets put paid to the whole Bat God nonsense

Similarly, when Diana fails to even land a plane in her own title , and is otherwise poryrayed at a level closer to Xena , Warrior Princess than any Kryptonian, it makes her feats in other series suspect, especially given the fact that its been 4 years since the reboot now and she still doesnt have a single independent strength feat, outside of jobbing out Kryptonians, despite featuring regularly in 3 titles

its getting to be like pre 52 Slade, zero feats for reacting in nanoseconds, yet still tags flashes consistently. Likewise diana has zero feats to match a race that benches planets, moves warworld, moves braniacs ship etc, but she still matches them anyway. Even supergirl has punched people into orbit/ across continents, to hold her class 100 status up . Diana? none of that

@thegrayghost: that's a good point but one could argue the exact opposite. Only Azzarello writes her as somewhat mid tier, while several others write her as high tier (Superman level roughly).

That's why you don't concentrate in only 1 arc/run unless it's stated in the rules.

@thegrayghost: You said it for everyone who has ever debated against Wonder Woman..

@the_red_viper: Actually that was kinda the point. Even after Azz's run ended, she hasnt exactly picked up feats even as simple as say superman getting punched across continents and walking it off.

I mean you need to have *some* independent feats at least to make ..anything viable. And its not like she has a dearth of appearances either. Its been..4 years now

Best thing I can recall for is landing a plane with superman help in superman/ wonder woman. And that reaaally isnt class 100 level even if she had done it on her own

So...yeah I dont see New 52 Diana beating Hulk without BFR . At least not until she gets * some* feats.

Maybe this year she will finally get her feats. Who knows. So far, nothing.

@thegrayghost: All of what you said only proves that it is Azzarelo that is low balling her and none of the other writers that have used her in the New 52. If every other run or arc with her in it shows her in an entirely different weight class then what is being used in her solo series doesn't that say her solo series is a little off?

Based off of what is currently stated above team 2 takes this easily in a mismatch. Diana alone has too many options for anyone on the Marvel team.

@thegrayghost: she also fought Kryptonians in Superman/WW.

Somehow people still don't understand that writers care about writing a good story, not needlessly pandering fans with feats to use on the battle forums that are perfectly consistent with everything else a character has done in every other appearance.

@revivalmh: certainly her solo series would have been the one that was " off" ....if she had done things like bench press planets and whatnot in other titles

Instead all she does is...fight some people . Based on that logic, as I said Batman fromm JLA is a completely different character to Batman from say Detective comics. She isnt any better than Bruce in that regard then

Fact is, unless she actually has independent feats outside of fights ( and its been 4 years and ...3 titles now, so she hasnt exactly lacked an oppurtunity) , when she does things like fail to land jets and otherwise require supermans help to do so even in other titles, and have her hands snapped by creatures Superman rips in half ( Doomsday) and subsequently nearly drown under a boat before supes rescues and these are actual things from other titles, not her own, they arent really contradicted, exactly

It seems she only remembers she is a class 100 when she fights class 100s, just like slade only used to remember he was FTL when he fought FTL people

So no...given her *almost complete* lack of feats on a class 100 scale except when fighting them, to the extent of failing to land aircraft in her own title, I wouldnt say its lowballing, but her consistent level, at least until she notches up some independent feats

@jayc1324: Of course writers dont give a rats ass about things like consistency and feats! Lets face it , a comic where say all Diana did was bench a planet, then run a few times across the planet at FTL before skinny dipping in the heart of sun, would be pretty boring.

Things like that do not sell at all and lead to a poorer quality of stories. heck DC had the original crisis just to get rid of all the OPd Silver age characters. People dont want to read about blandity bland jurgens writing yet another fist fight between Superman and Doomsday. They want Millers Batman beating the shit out of superman in TDKR!

Thats what makes for a good story, and more imporantly for comics, thats what sells

So should we just then ignore these forums and things like feats and consistency and whatnot? because lets face it , its all fiction. if the writer wants batman to beat superman, he WILL beat superman. so why dont we all abandon to battle forums and just say " since its all fiction, and the writer can write anything he wants, anything is possible. ergo my favourite character beats yours! "

why dont we just do that? because thats no fun. that just leads to hundreds of pages of people saying their favourite character wins. Instead we like to do things like pretend things like " feats" and " consistency" and PIS actually exist

In reality, they dont. at all. they are just tools to set up the platform for a debate and not a metaphorical shouting match. They provide certain standards to follow and at least attempt to reach a decision based on logic , of some kind

Why do we do it? Because its more fun than just saying character X wins.

Ultimately of course , you could just say none of that matters, since in an actual comic, batman would never lose to say Rick Tyler using the serum, simply because he is a B lister , regardless of feats or anything, so the writer is going to write whatever he wants and *that* would be what happens in actual comics instead of her endless comments on feats and whatnot, shouting PIS etc

so you can say, that feats and stuff dont matter. but that would just make for a boring and unsatisfactory debate, wouldnt you agree?

@the_red_viper: i already mentioned that, didnt I? She also broke Hal's shields in JL. Still doesnt change the fact that she doesnt have *feats* to show she can break hals shields ...except when breaking them of course

@the_red_viper: she didn't just fight the duo she beat them at the same time

@thegrayghost: What you're saying though is that feats against actual other people, which are what Diana is fighting here, don't matter. They absolutely do matter and in fact its almost all that matters because it's Diana we're talking about here. She should be one of the best fighters in the world with a strength level about just under Superman. Believe me, I get what you're saying in regards to she doesn't have any actual pure strength feets to actually back up the strength claim I am making. However, based on the type of hero Diana is, a fighter, she has had plenty of feats to prove that she can take down the Hulk. She doesn't need to lift a big boulder to prove it.

@revivalmh: When she fails to otherwise lift a plane and gets wrecked by people Supes rips in half, in another series no less, yes she does need her own feats

Performances against other people are only vaid when you have any feats of your own to support this

So Batman kicks down trees. This shows he can hurt Bane , who can tank bullets, just fine. This does not in any way show he can make Darkseid bleed, although he does so in the comics

Pre 52 Wonder woman could move 1/3 of the earth and moon, ignore nukes, carry mountains easily, swim through lava , get up from being punched from the sun to earth, this shows she is in the class 100 range, not the fights with say superman or somebody. Those are good, additional feats that help in comparative analysis of 2 class 100s say superman and wonder woman

They are however rendered invalid if there are no feats to support these performances

For example one of pre 52 Diana's best *feats* is keeping up with Jesse Quick even as she enters the speed force. That shows her to be near lightspeed. However in actual perfomances, she had actually managed to tag Zoom in her fights against other characters, despite zooms very origin showing him to be at least thrice as fast as jesse and hence Diana

Thats why judging them by performances against other characters never works out well. Independent feats take precedence, performances against other characters are secondary

In new 52 dianas case, in addition to her lack of independent feats, she also has *contradictory* feats that make her case, ever weaker , to be considere a proper class 100

Just not seeing it myself

1) team 1

2) team 2

@jayc1324: Exactly and I don't understand why people think Wonder Woman fighting people in Superman's class is nonsense when she has been doing it for many decades. Writers don't need to have her tossing around planets to prove that she can. Mongul don't have feats any better than hers and he fights evenly with Superman on occasion.

@somayareece: Her feats over decades are meaningless for the current iteration of the character, which has been active for all of 4 years

The difference between Monguls showings and hers is that mongul doesnt appear what..5 times in 2 months? not counting special appearances of course, for her to get any leeway on that count.

When she otherwise struggles to land planes and the like and mongul while he doesnt have such feats , also doesnt suffer from such contradictory showings as this, stuff like that sure counts against a character thats been active for 4 years in 3 regular titles as opposed to ....a villain with sporadiac appearances

While we are there Mongul has even in his short cameos so far, racked up feats like walking off a punch that sent him 200 miles, continuing to fight after sinestro creates constructs *inside* his body etc , so that really isnt the best comparision

Can't flash just solo for first round?

Bonus round would be hard but I think ww and flash can take ️️hulk then thor out

For the Mother of God, the reason I brought up Mongul is because she already outmuscled him and closed a space rift he struggled with. That is not our problem that writers not having her bench planets. How about you take it up with them. If you have a problem with her fighting powerhouses because she supposedly can't lift planes then bark at them about it. She struggled just to lift a boulder in her early days of Post-Crisis and ended up being able to carry an continent on her back. Ranting about her feats that don't satisfy your pleasure is going to solve anything mate.

Hmmm...

Current new 52 people be lacking in the feats area....

Although, I don't know that I'm really feeling any of the feats of new Thor.

Best bet is Barry saves the day with BFR.

Just to clarify the first two fights are Hulk by himself. Only the Bonus fight includes Thor.

He can arguably solo first 2 rounds still with Uber difficulty.

@somayareece: Superman otherwise was KOd by a nuke for 30 minutes at the beginning of his post crisis career, and lower showings involve struggling to lift 60 tons, land planes and at one point getting knocked down by a guy lighting a fart

Then he got an upgrade after his death, and along with him the rest of the DC bricks

Wonder woman in the post crisis era otherwise has an actual thing , where the more she trains the more powerful she becomes as far as explanations for her later day power increases , and their explanantions go

Heck superman in the new 52 action comics started out by getting KOd by bazookas and ended up benching the planet , with the explanation of " he gets stronger as he absorbs more radiation" goes

All of these are consistent, linear scalings supported by feats and statements. new 52 Diana? none of that, despite being around the same time as superman,she has no feats of moving even mountains or ...anything really to justify anything

You yourself started this off by how Mongul gets a free pass and Diana doesnt, and now you want to withdraw your own argument to talk about how its all fiction and the "writers write what they want!" as a way of justification ....doesn't particularly bode well for any debate we might have

If its all dependent on the writers, and they can write any old thing, what the hell are you doing on a FEATS based board? If your argument is " the writer wrote it , therefore it counts, despite no feats to support it", how many times FTL then is pre 52 Deathstroke?

Heck lets stay with wonder woman. When wonder woman does things like lasso and take down the phantom stranger in trinity war, how far up the cosmic ladder do you feel she is operating at?

Remember by your own logic, any fight the writer writes is totally valid as a usable feat. So Wonder woman? Can totally hurt the Phantom Stranger, yes or no?

Hulk couldn't beat superman, thor could because of supermans weakness for magic but without superman in the picture diana could hold her own with thor though she is a demi god and flash and aquaman could take hulk if Arthurs trident is capable of stabbing superman it would be powerful enough to hurt hulk while barry would use quantum tunneling to counter any action the hulk would do. If you are going to do battles make them with their equal counter part from the other universe.

I just don't see it. Hulk has tagged quicksilver, and while flash is faster that QS, Hulk has been known to have super quick reaction speed. He has a healing factor, and even an IMP punch from Flash is not guaranteed to KO the Hulk if he's sufficiently enraged. Flash is one of my favorite characters but he's going to need some help with the Hulk I think.

This is a complete waste of my time. Not going to argue with someone misinterpreting my posts and putting words in my statements. Tell the writers that you want strength feats to prove that she can fight Superman otherwise sit here and complain about how she doesn't please your taste. I have rested my case and refuse to derail this thread.

Heh

First of all I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me how to do battles. I didn't put Superman in this fight for a reason, I'm trying to see how high you all rate the characters involved in this thread. You've given your opinion but obviously we have other opinions in this thread.

Round 1 Marvel, Round 2 Dc, Round 3 Marvel; mismatch btw.

DC team stomp hard

Flash is still orders of a magnitude faster than Quicksilver and has a vastly better kit, like speed mind, phasing, and better durability. He's capable of fighting 1v1 with kryptonians still in the N52, he should be able to face base line hulk with high difficulty.

His punches can still wound Kryptonians, so it's not even unlikely that he could harm a base hulk, as well as phasing and good enough durability. Flash managed to Open the speed force in chains with a spear from Speed Grodd coming at him. N52's speed mind allows him to specifically amp his mental capacity. It wouldn't be difficult to take the fight to speed force IMO.