Hulk/Skarr VS Supergirl/Powergirl/Superboy

Moral off

Standard gear

Start off 100 feet away

No prep

who wins

Team Hulk. Current Hulk is beast, and could solo all 3 New 52 Kryptonians.

@foreverevil: n52 or pre?

As far as I know, Super girl isn't that fast. She says the best she can do is keep up with a barely trying barry allen (which is actually pretty fast mind you), and that was more than she had ever pushed herself before. SB's tk hasn't been impressive enough to guarantee a hulk kill from what I've seen. Anyone feel free to correct me.

I'm only familiar with N52. So I think Pre 52 would be better, no? Because there arent many feats since theres only 23 issues. Depends on what viners say. I'll make a decision when you all tell me which versions to make this. Oh and Why would you bring up speed and say shes not very fast and then bring up her fight with barry allen. thats WAY faster than hulk or skarr. so i dont get the point of brining that up. Also, again yes thats as fast as she'd pushed herself but remember that thats not saying much since new 52 essentially just started. only 23 issues. same for superboy. the best ive seen him in was probably vs H'el and he was getting owned. just like superman and everyone else.

@foreverevil: Her fight with Barry allen was her absolute best, and that was Barry not even really trying. She couldn't even sustain it for very long, and basically only managed to do it by focusing on keping up with barry. By comparison, Superman tagged him pretty easily. The point is just that she's not as fast as other Kryptonians, and she's also not as skilled or experienced.

none of the 52 have a super huge number of feats.

In comic books non flyers can beat flyers but in a real fight that would barely happen. If the Kryptonians heat vision is anywhere near Gladiatiors then they may win with that. Or BFR.

yes i know all of that. i have that issue of supergirl and all the rest too. My point is that its irrelevant to say she coudlnt keep up with a not fully trying barry cause barry is wayyyyy faster than hulk or skarr. to further explain what im saying, im flat out saying shes faster than hulk or skaar so her fight with barry doesnt matter. i hope im clear enough with what im saying. sometimes i have trouble clearly stating what im trying to convey

@foreverevil: I know what your saying, and I would agree she's faster. The point is, she's not as fast as other kryptonians. She doesn't have the feats to dance around people with super speed, so it's entirely plausible for her to get tagged. SB doesn't even have super speed right now, or at least none that I've seen. Even if she gets more hits in, she's not as hard hitting as the others either.

Poger girl is the deciding factor, and I haven't seen her in n52 cause I can't find those comics :(

Youre saying that she can get tagged because she had trouble with the flash's speed. do you understand how that doesnt make sense? please tell me you do.

Team Hulk curbstomps. Frankly, Hulk alone would pwn Team Krypton, and with Skarr it's just overkill.

@foreverevil: I'm saying she can be tagged because she's barely hypersonic, if that.

I like how people just skip over Skaar & his old power which could absolutely be a key factor since it over power world breaker hulk so thats impressive .

Skaar can solo .

there is no evidence to support that. you just think that because she had trouble keeping up with flash. there is NO evidence.

@foreverevil: Do you have any evidence she's above that?

Hulk because of his absolute power. If you were to separate them completely and have them lift weights hulk wouldn't be able to even come close but near them and his strength is automatically stronger. Thats why hulk destroyed thor in asgard but is seriously strained on earth vs thor. Hulks modern intelligence is a big weakness thoit limits his absolute power and his son only inherited his super power so he gets curb stomped by a krypton resident. Hulks strength with out a strong person nearby is just a typical muscle head.

i never made a claim. YOU did. so you have to support that with evidence. You cant just say, "oh look she couldnt keep up with flash " and then think for some reason that she isnt even supersonic. dont you see how illogical that is????????????

@foreverevil: So because she couldn't keep up with someone that wasn't moving beyond hypersonic, its outrageous for me to say she isn't hypersonic? Supergirl has no feats to suggest she's too fast to tag.

Gallery

The only time she's faced speedsters, Barry, WW, etc, she's been completely owned. She's either too ful of herself, or she's not actually that fast.

@dratini1331 said:

@foreverevil: So because she couldn't keep up with someone that wasn't moving beyond hypersonic, its outrageous for me to say she isn't hypersonic? Supergirl has no feats to suggest she's too fast to tag.

Gallery

The only time she's faced speedsters, Barry, WW, etc, she's been completely owned. She's either too ful of herself, or she's not actually that fast.

and howwww exactly do you know that barry wasnt moving faster than sound??????????????

@dratini1331 said:

@foreverevil: So because she couldn't keep up with someone that wasn't moving beyond hypersonic, its outrageous for me to say she isn't hypersonic? Supergirl has no feats to suggest she's too fast to tag.

Gallery

The only time she's faced speedsters, Barry, WW, etc, she's been completely owned. She's either too ful of herself, or she's not actually that fast.

dude. this is just getting weird. why are you even posting those scans and making it sound like its a bad thing?????? We dont know how fast EITHER of those characters are. It sounds like if you dont know how fast someone is, you automatically assume they are slow. Why is that?

@foreverevil:

It's logical to assume so. There needs to be evidence of something for it to be true.

what are you referring to?

if youre saying that its logical to assume someone is slow because there needs to be evidence of something for it to be true, then thats the funniest thing ive read all day. just read your own sentence and see how funny it is. to use your own words against you, there would need to be evidence of someone being slow in order for it to be true.

BOOM

What Is SupergIrl best strength feat??

I'm not sure. I have every N52 issue I'll go back and check. What stands out right off the bat is stalemating Superman.

im still looking for strength feats but in issue #3 she had JUST barely found out how to fly and she flew to outerspace in the time it took her to say please please please. which is about 2 seconds.

@foreverevil: thats a good feat.And thanx..

@foreverevil:

In rational discussion people make positive points.

For example:

Viner #1: "The Crimson Codman is slow, here he is getting tagged by DNAvenger."

(Insert scan here)

That Viner has looked at evidence and made a judgement. If another viner disagrees it is their job to disprove it.

Viner #2: "@viner#1 I disagree, contrary to popular belief DNAvenger isn't slow. He has some great speed feats!"

(Insert scans here)

If you disagree with dratini1331 then you must make an evidence based argument or you'll sway no one but yourself.

There needs to be evidence for any sort of conclusion, good or bad. So far dratini1331 is winning because he's made a coherent argument.

u know, i couldnt really find any cause its new 52 and the people she fought against dont have a clear definition of how strong they are so we cant really say how strong SHE is. so far shes fought superman, flash, wonderwoman, cybor superman and a few others that are more obscure.

@foreverevil: I just realized that this is going to be a rant cause I'm bored and too scared to play amnesia... soooo TL;DR = I make assumptions because otherwise discussion is pointless since we can say anything we want, and no one can prove us wrong.

All the no name people are just your average Joe. Any hero is logically faster than your average no name, so we bump the base case up to what the normal hero street leveler is. From there, you use feats to describe where the character fits in the hierarchy. If a character has no feats to place them above average, then they are presumed average for the sake of argument.

Saying "We don't know, therefore we can't make a statement" is irrational. Literally, as in against the philosophical concept of Rationalism (If I'm remembering my philosophies correctly, I may be thinking of Empiricism). It's the same argument for Descartes' Cogito Ergo Sum. Since we cannot prove that anything exists permanently, i.e. how do we know our world is real, we can't saying anything is true. Descartes' theorem is that since there must be a doubter, or else the doubt would not exist, we can conclude that as the generator of said doubt, we exist.

The purpose of this tangent is to illustrate something simple: we can only acknowledge a truth if we have a base case from which to draw. Assumptions must be made. My assumption is that those without proof of being faster than average are average.

The same can be seen in math. Discrete Mathematics teaches the properties of a system of empirical proofs called induction. By creating a base case for the set, assuming a hypothesis is true, and proving the hypothesis true for the next member of the set, we can determine that the hypothesis is true. For example, assume we have an infinite ladder:

• We can reach the first rung of a ladder
• Assume we can reach the Kth rung of the ladder
• If we can reach rung K+1, then we can climb the ladder indefinitely.

Now, why is this important. Two reasons:

1. We must assume the Hypothesis is true
2. We must have a base case from which to work

Without a true assumption, nothing can be proven, and without a base case, anything can be proven. For example:

Assume we have a hypothesis that states X = X + 1 if this statement is true, we must prove that the next logical operator X+1 = (X+1) + 1. We can now prove this by adding one to both sides of our initial hypothesis:

X+1 = X+1 + 1 = (X+1) + 1 Ergo, X = X+1

That entire point is valid in the case of not having a base case, and that's why base cases are important.

/boredrant

Exactly MY point. HE made an assumption for god knows what reason that they werent fighting faster than the speed of sound even though there is NO evidence to support that. So, I'm simply asking him for proof of HIS claim. See, I made NO claim. Im simply asking him why he ASSUMES without PROOF.

Woah, woah, woah, let's not go that far just yet. I'm probably gonna start derping soon because I'm tired and just finished 2 tests today @.@

in NONE of that did you show PROOF of them going slower than the speed of sound. All Im asking for is proof of YOUR claim that they are going slower than the speed of sound. is it so hard? im asking YOU to help ME. I mean, maybe i missed it, maybe its in writing in the corner somewhere. help me out. show me.

@foreverevil: I'm trying to explain :/ The purpose of the rant is the justification of an assumption and reasoning for a base case, which you had asked for. If we just assume anything, you could assume every DC character is moving in hyper-time compared to us, even your average cop. That's not a logical choice, as it goes against reason. We have to make some assumptions for us to have debates, otherwise this is pointless.

Also, asking someone for proof of NOT something is near impossible. Having no proof is perfectly consistent with my argument, so I actually DON't have to provide proof. It's the inverse to the arguing from ignorance fallacy. You may as well ask me to explain color to a blind man.

If your really want to be technical, in none of her fights does supergirl ever obtain a mach cone:

The mach cone is the air being brushed aside faster than it can effectively get out of the way, like the wake of a boat. Since she has no mach cone, she cannot being going faster than sound in those scans. Now the other side of that is the superboy scan:

Gallery

Notice the secondary scan. When she hits Connor, he flies straight towards the atmosphere. Through that, he still doesn't have the mach cone. He's not moving fast enough to generate even a slight mach cone. This doesn't necessarily mean she isn't supersonic, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that she isn't massively Hypersonic or anything along those lines. She's not super stupid fast enough to say she would never get tagged.

We still have no reason to believe SB or the other dude are supersonic. They have no feats to put them on that level.

@dratini1331 said:

@foreverevil: I'm trying to explain :/ The purpose of the rant is the justification of an assumption and reasoning for a base case, which you had asked for. If we just assume anything, you could assume every DC character is moving in hyper-time compared to us, even your average cop. That's not a logical choice, as it goes against reason. We have to make some assumptions for us to have debates, otherwise this is pointless.

Also, asking someone for proof of NOT something is near impossible. Having no proof is perfectly consistent with my argument, so I actually DON't have to provide proof. It's the inverse to the arguing from ignorance fallacy. You may as well ask me to explain color to a blind man.

If your really want to be technical, in none of her fights does supergirl ever obtain a mach cone:

The mach cone is the air being brushed aside faster than it can effectively get out of the way, like the wake of a boat. Since she has no mach cone, she cannot being going faster than sound in those scans. Now the other side of that is the superboy scan:

Gallery

Notice the secondary scan. When she hits Connor, he flies straight towards the atmosphere. Through that, he still doesn't have the mach cone. He's not moving fast enough to generate even a slight mach cone. This doesn't necessarily mean she isn't supersonic, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that she isn't massively Hypersonic or anything along those lines. She's not super stupid fast enough to say she would never get tagged.

We still have no reason to believe SB or the other dude are supersonic. They have no feats to put them on that level.

thats a simple mistake from DC. in her fight with barry, she says it takes place in less than a second. theres multiple strikes and thought bubbles. In NO instance does it say how fast shes fighting so we cant say shes slower or faster than anything. in the fight with flash we have a better clue as to how fast theyre fighting.

@dratini1331 said:

@foreverevil: I'm trying to explain :/ The purpose of the rant is the justification of an assumption and reasoning for a base case, which you had asked for. If we just assume anything, you could assume every DC character is moving in hyper-time compared to us, even your average cop. That's not a logical choice, as it goes against reason. We have to make some assumptions for us to have debates, otherwise this is pointless.

Also, asking someone for proof of NOT something is near impossible. Having no proof is perfectly consistent with my argument, so I actually DON't have to provide proof. It's the inverse to the arguing from ignorance fallacy. You may as well ask me to explain color to a blind man.

If your really want to be technical, in none of her fights does supergirl ever obtain a mach cone:

The mach cone is the air being brushed aside faster than it can effectively get out of the way, like the wake of a boat. Since she has no mach cone, she cannot being going faster than sound in those scans. Now the other side of that is the superboy scan:

Gallery

Notice the secondary scan. When she hits Connor, he flies straight towards the atmosphere. Through that, he still doesn't have the mach cone. He's not moving fast enough to generate even a slight mach cone. This doesn't necessarily mean she isn't supersonic, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that she isn't massively Hypersonic or anything along those lines. She's not super stupid fast enough to say she would never get tagged.

We still have no reason to believe SB or the other dude are supersonic. They have no feats to put them on that level.

when kara first learned to fly she went to space in seconds. thats her flying. not fighting, but she did fight superman and superman is fast and he didnt dodge her hits

@foreverevil: I'm not saying she isn't fast, I'm saying she isn't uber Mega WTF super crazy special fast. She's been tagged by non-speedsters, I've already presented the evidence for it. Unless you can prove otherwise, there's no reason the Hulks cannot tag her.

youve proved that shes been hit by 2 characters. but you havnt proved they arent fast. you just say they arent. You havnt shown proof that superboy or Tycho arent fast. Its been like 20 replies and you havnt shown proof.

@foreverevil:

Sometimes God gives us a burden, it is now time for you to prove something. If you disagree then you supply the scans/arguments.

@foreverevil: Your asking me to prove something that's impossible to prove. what exactly are you expecting? Like do you want scans of Superboy getting tagged by slow people? Like him getting tagged by red robin and such? What exactly do you want?

why did you ignore my points??? I disagree simply because he hasnt provided proof. he needs proof for his claims. you cant just say " theres 12 superman crest shaped rocks on saturn lined up." and expect ME to provide proof of why thats not true. Its up to YOU to prove it. its called the burden of proof fallacy. the burden of proof is on someone making a claim. HE made the claim, not me. Its simple stuff you learn your first year of college man. how do you not know that

its simple bro. You said theyre not going faster than sound. Im asking where does it say that. theres no proof. for all we know, they could be fighting at 50 times faster than sound, or they could have been fighting at below the speed of sound. the point is you dont know so you shouldnt say that theyre fighting below speed of sound. you said it as a matter of fact. as if it said it somewhere on pannel. im simply asking for proof. if its on there in the panel then show me. as for superboy youd have to show his best and worst speed feats and then we'd go from there to see if hes slow or fast. and as far as TYCHO, hes only been in comics TWICE, so for you to assume he's slow is unfounded....cause theres no proof.

@foreverevil: I did provide proof, you've ignored mine -.- I've explained everything to you, so what do you want? Also, there is something called "Disproving someone". You can post counter arguments more so than "I don't believe you!"

Also, Philosophical burden of proof puts onus on YOU as well. It means that if I provide proof, you're the one who must provide evidence as to why said proof is incorrect. I've supported and substantiated my claim, so now it's your turn to support your belief as to the other side. Since I've given you empirical evidence, you have to provide empirical evidence. Do you have any proof of superboy being fast?

I can post him getting tagged by bunker or Red Robin if you want me to.

I have proof. my proof is that you have no proof. Because you see, im not saying shes fast OR slow. im saying in those fights we dont know how fast shes moving. Empirical evidence? LMAO noooo. NO SIR. you havnt proved ANYTHING.

Superboy getting hit by bunker or robin is the same thing as flash getting hit by rogues or deathstroke.

He's also tagged H'el. But im not using that to say he's fast. Im just saying.

@foreverevil:

Like dratini said burden of proof extends to you as well.

Dratini has presented a fully-formed argument. He's shown Kara's attempt at a speed blitz being thwarted by Superboy. He has also mentioned how Superboy has been tagged by Red Robin and Bunker. The only flaw so far is that there are no scans for the Red Robin/Bunker incidents. I have seen those panels before though so it's fine with me.

From that evidence we can get a gauge on Kara's speed.

no we cant. i dont have to prove anything because im not making a claim. because we dont know how fast either one is. all we know is that they fly fast. ive asked for proof over 20 times. ive yet to see it stated how fast she was moving and how much effort she was putting into it.stop ignoring all my posts. it makes you look like your dodging me cause you cant answer me.

@foreverevil: So what your saying is that you are completely denying everything with absolutely zero evidence of your own? Yea, I think we're done here.

@hellionvulcan: Skaar would just camp and absorb HUGE amounts of kinetic energy ultimately unleashing it on someone of the other team, making it puke their brains out while Hulk becomes a punching bag. I mean... They guy commanded 100 trillion tons of kinetic energy in seconds... Mere seconds! Not to mention he's barely movable while he's doing since he becomes one with the Earth.

IM sayin that based off of that one scan with flash that youre talking about we can, with absolute certainty, NOT determine how fast they were going. We cant even begin to tell how fast they were going. WHy? because the panel doesnt say it. It would help if we knew how much effort flash was putting into it. if he was going HALF SPEED that means that they were going half the speed of light which is 93,000 miles per second. again, we just dont know. so you shouldnt just throw numbers and statements around unless you have proof.