HTT Semifinals: Cdude360 vs DarkRaiden (VOTING OPEN)

Team @comicdude360:

Gallery

• Larfleeze
• Mr. Terrific
• Barry Allen
• Bart Allen
• Martian Manhunter
• (all composite)

• Hour Prep
• Full Superman Package (minus heat vision, speed, and sundip)
• Full Knowledge
• Bending

Team @darkraiden:

Gallery

• Sage
• Domino
• Longshot
• Scarlet Witch
• Pre-52 Zatanna

• Hour Prep
• Superman Package
• Full Knowledge
• Wolverine Healing
• Cyclops Vision (Longshot)

Rules

• If you do not include scans in your arguments, or at the very least text from a wiki, then the argument will be nullified unless it is common knowledge.
• All Battles will start on DC Earth 20,000 BC. All prep will take place on the planet and the atmosphere is absolutely impenetrable until the battle starts.
• No Time Travel
• No Cloning
• No Power Absorption
• Good Luck and have fun!

VOTING OPEN!

For those that don't know how this works, read the whole thread and decide on who you think debated better. DarkRaiden's last post from today December 3 will not count towards the debate; ignore that.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @darkraiden: guessing you'll take out larfleeze or martian manhunter.

@thenewbluebeetle007: also would you mind if I changed my perks. I did in the third page of the pm but I wrnt over the limit. If not I'm fine.

@comicdude360: You going first?

@darkraiden: ok. Who are you taking out and do you mind if I switch perks.

@darkraiden: also just to be clear scarlet whitch can't reality warp for this right

@comicdude360: Perks? I don't know...seems like you could tailor them for me. I'd rather you not.....seems cheap. And SW is non HOM.

@darkraiden: ok what character will you take out for me.

@comicdude360: Martian Manhunter

@darkraiden: I'll take sage.

@darkraiden: ok so I'm pretty sure beetle wants us to just do prep first and do the actual debate later. So As you could see from my first debate where I never got a reply Mr. Terrific tells laarfleeze that if we win the tournament he will get to see his family again (pretty much puts him in bloodlust). Now the real prep has two parts. first Mr. Terrific gives everyone a t-sphere for a mask.

Part 1: Mr. Terrific and the Flashes

So Mr. Terrific will teach the flashes how to build t-spheres (before you say anything about them your team making them al break I'd like to point out that these are expertly made by the third smartest person in the world) Now the flashes will make as many as they can but i don't expect much. After that barry and bart will learn about how to use their t-mask

Part 2: Larfleeze

After he gets his t-mask larfleeze separates from the group and goes around making himself more powerful. He will go around killing anything he sees giving him more constructs. We will begin the battle with everyone except for barry, the left over t-spheres and all of larfleeze's constructs under a shield from larfleeze

@comicdude360: honestly you guys are free to do whatever just send me a winner by Thanksgiving and then after Thanksgiving we'll do the finals.

@thenewbluebeetle007: ok. Will you tag ,e for your vs roros battle prep and stuff.

@comicdude360:

Prep

1. Zatanna erects shields to block any attack from your team

2. She also turns everyone invisible and into phantom form (especially invisible to the T-spheres)

3. We all fly high up into the clouds

4. Zatanna forms m ore storm clouds

5. Zatanna user her matter manipulation to change Domino and Longshot's weapons to Adamantium (through their own knowledge) or basically a metal that can hurt your team. Obviously this includes the ammo

6. Scarlet Witch and Domino use their luck abilities to ready the clouds to shoot lightning at the first thing that comes near it (not us cause we're super lucky and have protection).

@comicdude360: Prep is up for me and I'll tag you for voting.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/htt-semifinals-tnbb-vs-roronuffy-1619444/

also me and darkraiden are having a pretty good debate here (it's really long though so you might want to wait until voting): http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/rd2-darkraiden-vs-thenewbluebeetle007-1618618/

@comicdude360: Um...you posting your plan or.....?

@darkraiden: yeah but first do you mind if I see feats for zatanna changing a group invisable and phantom first.

@comicdude360:

Gallery

@darkraiden: @thenewbluebeetle007 ok i know sorry it took so long but I've been extremely busy. Just a basic little opener.

Larfleeze

So this is actually the only battle that I wanted Martian Manhunter to be banned instead of Larfleeze because of one feat that will ensure my victory but I'll get to that.

As the sole user of the orange light Larfleeze can make orange light constructs filled by his near infinite greed. This also allows him to create embodiments of those he killed. Finally he can absorb magic.

Read what torquemada says

Bart Allen

He's a flash, not as fast as wally or barry but you get the point.

Barry Allen

A flash .Reacts in attoseconds. bla bla bla

Mr. Terrific

ok so Im just gonna need a few more feats before I do him. Here's what I need

Feats zatanna can make things invisible to all forms of electromagnetic radiation

Feats that she can make her self "extra invisible" to objects

WHY I WIN

So in my mind my team can easily beat your tram and here's why

Lack of Team Work

Now when we started this I saw one thing that interested me on your perk: Full knowledge. This means all knowledge on everyone's powers and history, including your own team. So first I'd like to know, how do longshot and domino feel about scarlet which, I mean have they forgiven her for house of M. Now House of M, her dad being a super criminal, and her history with the brotherhood of evil mutants will cause zatana to distrust her but why should any of the mutants trust zatanna. I'm not sure if you remember when zatanna messed with Dr. Light's mind but that caused a lot of the Justice League, people that she's friends with and sees almost everyday, to start keeping secrets. Why shouldn't the rest of your team. overall I think your team could be fighting themselves during prep and on the battle field.

Larfleeze

your team is mostly magic and larfleeze absorbs magic...

I can do more but I'll save it for later.

When I saw that zatanna pic

@comicdude360: Um...only one of my team uses magic. Full knowledge means Longshot and Domino know that Doom caused HoM so they wouldn't care. And Zatanna mindwiping Dr. Light was agreed by everyone except Batman so I doubt they'd care. SW especially wouldn't care.

Not like they need to work together, but they would.

Also you can absorb magic but....we're invisible and intangible so that doesn't help us. And only your constructs can. And sadly, without magic, we still have an INSANE amount of luck on our side, all added together, when one of their luck is enough to make lightning strike at will. oh and they all have Superman's powers except speed and heat vision on top of their own powers.

So essentially, we're in the sky, hidden, and you can't see us. Zatanna says 'pots' and your whole team can't move or think. then she says 'nrut ot stibbar' and your team is rabbits. SW, Domino, and Longshot make you get struck by lightning repeatedly just in case. Pretty easy win.

And speaking of teamwork, Terrific nor the Flashes would work with Larfleeze who is an actual greedy monster. Plus Larfleeze would want to kill them/take their stuff/power/tech. So it'd either be Larfleeze alone or Terrific and the Flashes with a beat Larfleeze. Your choice.

@darkraiden: with the whole spell thing, any attacks that can't be dodged or blocked by regular no mystical beings is banned.

I don't see that in the rules.

Only

• No character that can solo New 52 Darkseid. If a character has half the votes or more, then he is not allowed. For example Silver Surfer got half of the votes in the SS vs Darkseid thread, so he's not allowed, even though he can't beat Darkseid.
• No character that can one shot a planet.
• No power cloning. Nope, not having any of that. If your character got his powers from power cloning then he's not allowed (like Amazo).
• No cloning
• No Time Manipulation
• No character that can manipulate matter on the scale of a skyscraper.
• No limiting characters in silly ways (I will tell you what's silly and what's not, and you can use your judgement). Like you can't say Composite Hal Jordan without a ring, then give him a ring) - or
• No speed steal

Nothing else. Plus I could argue that her spells have been blocked by a non mystical being, but it's irrelevant since it's not needed.

@darkraiden: I just ones him. @newbluebeetle007: can vouch.

@comicdude360: @darkraiden: Zatanna's magic is not blocked, there are many ways that you can counter it. I already talked to cdude.

@darkraiden: @comicdude360: try to finish up by next tuesday

@darkraiden: @thenewbluebeetle007: sorry for taking so long (that's becoming my catchphrase) my cv time has recently been replaced by thanksgiving stuff.

So just gonna counter what you said and later I'll use some science to explain how to counter your entangibility and invisablitlity. (I might nerd out so be warned)

Lighting:yeah I have super man powers as well and my team (except for barry, t-spheres and constructs) protected by larfleezes shield and even if you do manage to hit us it won't hurt us as lighting can be survived by humen http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Sullivan

Teamwork: Now if you read my prep (I'm pretty sure you didn't because you act like my entire team is scattered and unprotected) you'd see that in order to get larfleeze to work we'd say that if we win the tournament he see his family again forcing him to work with us.

Spells: everyone but barry is protected By larfleezes shield and his shield makes him magic proof and I'll explain with barry why he's special.

Barry: now as you know can react in atto secondss right when you start to speak Barry will gain extreme moment and follow where your voice is vibrating through anything in his way now let's use some science to counter your intangibility. Now I case you didn't know intangibility is either caused by particles vibrating extremely fast at an atomic level (aka thermal energy) or being changed to a gaseous form both can be easily countered by freeze breath. You see cold lows down particles and will eventually change the state to a harder form. And honestly the only person on your team who's even a challenge is zatanna. Your luck is not scary and I've never seen any of your luck users do anything to take a super man level out.

1. Lightning hurts Superman.

2. Larfleeze's shield doesn't protect against spells unless you have proof.

3. Larfleeze with full knowledge would know who Terrific is and know he's lying.

4. Barry can't reach us high in the sky nor can he follow the vibrations of our voice.

5. Barry doesn't have attosecond reaction speeds unless you have proof.

6. Freeze breath doesn't counter intangibility unless you have proof

7. We have shields that Barry nor the freeze breath would get through.

Gallery

Shows Superman hurt by lightning many times

Gallery

Shows Domino's luck, making computers blow up, helicopters blow up, lightning strike, and protects her from Red Hulk

Gallery

Shows Longshot's luck that he makes Magneto sneeze/sick to protect him, causes a falling ship to stop falling, guns blow up, summons a future Cap America from nowhere to stop a werewolf Cap America, makes a bell randomly fall apart to stop two herald level beings because they're in Symbiotes.

Gallery

Gallery

Shows SW turning off electronics with ease, taking down shields/forcefields, making lightning, literally not being in place to be hit, controlling the very atoms around people, causing whirlwinds, etc. all with her probability manipulation powers.

With this it shows that

A. T-Spheres are blowing up

B. The orange ring isn't even functioning very well against luck like that

C. Any thing bad that CAN happen to your team, will.

Summary

1. No way to find or locate my team

2. Nothing to do against the lightning raining down on your team (possible whirlwinds)+freeze breath

3. No counter to intangibility or the shields we have

4. All your tech is blowing up/malfunctioning

5. No counter to Zatanna's spells stopping you and then transmuting you

6. No proof for any of your claims

7. Our luck is insane and is all combined. You won't get close to doing anything without killing yourself honestly

1 From your scans it looks like most of those people use magic with lightning so it's a little different unless you can prove me wrong.

2 In the scan above I showed that his constructs are invulnerable to it. You even acknowledged it.

3 Larfleeze is extremely gullible and will do almost anything to find his parents.

4 He just needs to follow your sound when you start saying the spell. he gets that high by gathering momentum and flying at a steady angle.

5

6 Proof for this is 5th grade science 8th grade science and basic chemistry. if you need more proof wikipedia.

7 vibrate

A Likely true for some but not all.

B Doubt it. Unless you can prove that their luck can affect mystical artifacts powered by the greediest person in existence's greed than this won't happen

C assumptions

Summary

1 Proven

2 Flash can dodger everyone else is protected

3 Proven

4 Tech isn't really a large part of my argument

5 Proven. Plus I don't think Zatanna will go for turning us all to chicken right away. especially since some of her friends are here

6 And your entire argument is assumptions so it evens out.

7 i'd rather be good than lucky any day.

My Summary

1 No proof Zatanna's spells can get through Larfleeze's shields

2 Ignored science

3 No proof luck will do anything to the ring

4 Has no way of getting to the majority of my team

5 Hundreds of magic proof constructs will be attacking and if even one finds the force field my job becomes easy

6 Entire luck argument is based of assumptions

7 I doubt You even read all my posts because you're asking for proof for things I've proved.

@comicdude360: TAG ME NEXT TIME!!!!!

What is it with people and not tagging any more?

@darkraiden: sorry. at least I got it up on time.

@comicdude360:

1 From your scans it looks like most of those people use magic with lightning so it's a little different unless you can prove me wrong.

Um...no. not only would YOU have to prove it's magic because you substantiated that claim and thus have the burden of proof, but two of those is livewrie who has no magic.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Leslie_Willis_%28New_Earth%29

And you realize that we have 2 magic users right?

2 In the scan above I showed that his constructs are invulnerable to it. You even acknowledged it.

No, you showed the constructs can absorb magic that is shot/thrown at it. Unfortunately for you, I'm not using magic beams or even using magic on your constructs. Zatanna's magic just happens. And in this case it will affect your person, not your constructs.

3 Larfleeze is extremely gullible and will do almost anything to find his parents.

But he has full knowledge on your team. He has no reason to believe Terrific if he knows everything about him.

4 He just needs to follow your sound when you start saying the spell. he gets that high by gathering momentum and flying at a steady angle.

He can't fly. From what you showed he takes a while just to start running on water and through smoke (maybe clouds? I'd need more info) and was straining himself immensely to do so. Add on that lightning is constantly attacking him, as are whirlwinds and that we're invisible and Zatanna's spell has already passed by the time he can even begin to locate us and....it doesn't bode well for him. Oh and we have shields up.

5. Attosecond thing

I'm aware of this quote. I want proof. Flash's statements mean nothing when he's been hit by normal people, lightning, Gorilla Grodd, stated that the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light (he's wrong), etc. I need actual feats.

6 Proof for this is 5th grade science 8th grade science and basic chemistry. if you need more proof wikipedia.

So post the proof. You made the claim, you need to prove it. That's how debating works. And you're forgetting we have shields.

7 vibrate

Again proof? You haven't shown him vibrating through any shields at all. And then according to you, cold and ice get through vibration (we have freeze breath), so I'm not seeing your point. Some proof would be good. seriously.

A Likely true for some but not all.

B Doubt it. Unless you can prove that their luck can affect mystical artifacts powered by the greediest person in existence's greed than this won't happen

C assumptions

A. No definitely all.

B. Why would a mystical artifact be immune to luck? That doesn't even make any sense. Plus it's not all that mystical, it's technology, a ring powered by a battery.

Also:

Gallery

There she is affecting Mjolnir, Enchantress and Loki's magic, absorbing magic, and affecting Dormammu's mystic artifact. All with hex. So again, the ring doesn't even work rather it's tech or 'mystic'.

Summary

1 Proven

2 Flash can dodger everyone else is protected

3 Proven

4 Tech isn't really a large part of my argument

5 Proven. Plus I don't think Zatanna will go for turning us all to chicken right away. especially since some of her friends are here

6 And your entire argument is assumptions so it evens out.

7 i'd rather be good than lucky any day.

1. No, no it wasn't. You didn't even show him follow sound to locate people.

2. Can't dodge a whirlwind/lightning/and reach us before spells get you

3. You literally didn't even try to prove it. Just said "lol science"

4. It is when Larfleeze's ring is tech and Terrific is now useless and the explosions can hurt your team

5. You proved nothing. And she's going for 'pots' right away. Plus she would definitely turn you to chickens. She can literally turn you back at any time so it's nor harm no fowl for her (get it?).

6. So you admit you have no proof? And I've assumed nothing. I've shown Zatanna using her spells and SW's hex abilities in action and even Domino and Longshot's luck in action. It's not an assumption, it's fact based off of feats I've shown. You on the other hand have shown nothing.

7. Didn't help Juggernaut, Silver Surfer Carnage, Red Hulk, Loki, Dormammu, Mjolnir, etc.

My Summary

1 No proof Zatanna's spells can get through Larfleeze's shields

2 Ignored science

3 No proof luck will do anything to the ring

4 Has no way of getting to the majority of my team

5 Hundreds of magic proof constructs will be attacking and if even one finds the force field my job becomes easy

6 Entire luck argument is based of assumptions

7 I doubt You even read all my posts because you're asking for proof for things I've proved.

1. I don't have to. Zatanna's spells have always shown to directly affect the person in question. Not shoot of like a beam you can absorb.

2. You haven't even shown any science. Show a link, quote an article with the citations, do something

3. Luck has affected both mystic and tech, the ring is tech but even your claims of mystic won't help.

4. Spells? Lightning? Hex bolts? Not sure what you're on about.

5. You have no idea where we are. The constructs won't be doing much. Especially as your ring is malfunctioning due to hex and luck. Also lightning dispersing your constructs along with whirlwinds.

6. It's based off of feats actually.

7. I read them. You've proved nothing.

So the previous summary still stands

Summary

• No way to find or locate my team
• Nothing to do against the lightning raining down on your team (possible whirlwinds)+freeze breath
• No counter to intangibility or the shields we have
• All your tech and your ring is blowing up/malfunctioning
• No counter to Zatanna's spells stopping you and then transmuting you (shields don't help....at all)
• No proof for any of your claims (even you admitted this)
• Our luck is insane and is all combined. You won't get close to doing anything without killing yourself honestly (proven via feats)

@comicdude360@darkraiden:

voting opens TODAY!!! Winner faces me (unless roro gets 3 votes in the next 24 hours which I find unlikely)

or if you both agree I could just open it now

@darkraiden: @thenewbluebeetle007:

1 ok I just needed more info

2 everything had to travel in a form. Just because zatanna can cast spells that can travel faster than comprehended doesn't make it instant. It may not be a visible beam but it's still traveling.

3 he lent a ring to lex luthor by trusting hal jordon and gantlet during blackest night. Don't think fighting with terrific would be an issue. Plus you never countered if long shot and domino have forgiven scarlet witch and green lantern black canary and green arrow also disagreed with zatanna not just batman.

4 I have super mans powers so yes I can fly. And in that scan it shows flash going ten times the speed of light not just going through clouds. And by using super mans hearing we can follow what zatanna is saying in the spell and follow you. I'll counter the dodging lightning and phasing in my later posts

5 running around the world 75 times in one second and not running into anything would need reactions that good or better. Plus why would he need to lie to super man.

6sorry I just thought that you'd have at least an eight grade education. Here

http://www.chem4kids.com/files/matter_changes.html

7 he's able to vibrate through spa shield more I pressive that zatanna has ever shown

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125203/3086224-6226002657-28176.jpg

A thas an assumptions

B if you can show me a piece of thechnology that can create anything your imagination desires powered by emotion I'll give. The rings were crafted by the guardians using their powers and is powered by emotion. All I see from those posts is scarlet whitch using magic to overpower other beings not luck.

1 now it's proven. If you'd like I can show scans of super mans hearing aswell but that seems obvious

2 if you'd like I'll give you a little info about an attosecond min one light can travel about 3 average sized molecules. Now you may be wondering how he even gets hit. That is pis. If he never got hit his books would be boring and he wouldn't sell

3 like I said I thought you pd be familiar with basic chemistry

4prove larfleeze ring is tech. Yes the explosions may hurt my team but it won't be a KO as much as an injury since we have extreme durability. Mr terrific isn't needed to beat your subpar team :)

5 yes but we'd just be roaming. It'd be unlikely we'd find your shield but it's possible. But very nice pun.

6 you assumed the ring is tech. You are also assuming what the luck will do. And I have now proved what I've said

7 if anyone on your team can solo dormammu that they should be banned.

1 nothing automatically happens

2 if you'd like proof I have a pretty good understanding of science and I've linked a few things. Everything I've said is true and if you don't believe my you can look it up.

3 said this before

4 larfleezes shields will protect us from any magic as I've proven and lighting won't break shields that have withstood green lantern blasts

5 just an if. Probably won't happen but there's a slight chance.

6 assuming the luck will affect the ring when it's not tech.

1 your voice and super hearing

2 what do you mean frees breath. Are you implying that you'll be able to react to flash vibrating through the shield at light sped enough to use your breath.

3 done

4 tech yes but the ring still needs to be proven

5 nothing is instant. Your spells most likely travel about a mile an attosecond making them appear instant but not

6 I don't believe I did. I never said "I don't have a way to prove this". If you're talking about the science you can look it up. I'm not lieing.

7 once barry gets into your shield he will be able make you tangible and KO you. Not too hard.

Nothing to do even if you can beat barry.

Most of my team is protected

Haven't proved long shot or domino can affect the ring and the scarlet whitch fears didn't show luck

By saying a spell you give your location almost assuring your loss.

Far too many reasons to beat you considering I'm magic proof and I believe you luck is magic. Even if it's not luck alone won't legit you win.

@comicdude360:

1 ok I just needed more info

2 everything had to travel in a form. Just because zatanna can cast spells that can travel faster than comprehended doesn't make it instant. It may not be a visible beam but it's still traveling.

3 he lent a ring to lex luthor by trusting hal jordon and gantlet during blackest night. Don't think fighting with terrific would be an issue. Plus you never countered if long shot and domino have forgiven scarlet witch and green lantern black canary and green arrow also disagreed with zatanna not just batman.

4 I have super mans powers so yes I can fly. And in that scan it shows flash going ten times the speed of light not just going through clouds. And by using super mans hearing we can follow what zatanna is saying in the spell and follow you. I'll counter the dodging lightning and phasing in my later posts

5 running around the world 75 times in one second and not running into anything would need reactions that good or better. Plus why would he need to lie to super man.

6sorry I just thought that you'd have at least an eight grade education. Here

http://www.chem4kids.com/files/matter_changes.html

7 he's able to vibrate through spa shield more I pressive that zatanna has ever shown

2. Then you have to prove that in some way. Zatanna's spells have been shown to just 'happen'

3. I did counter that. Full knowledge means they know Doom did it. SCW didn't. Plus they've never shown any care for that.

4. Doesn't mean you can fly fast since you don't have his speed. Also once you hear her speak, the spells over. Pots is in place and you can't move or think.

5. 75 times in one second (which he didn't do. Stating it is not doing it. Even Wally with all the flashes speed absorbed only went around the world fighting with Zoom 12 times in a second) is nowhere close to attosecond

6. That only shows gas. We're phantom form via magic. Nowhere did we become gaseous at all.

7. No it's not more impressive unless you show me some feats. Zatanna has blocked Lobo, death, and ghosts. All that showed was him slowly going through a shield and moving slowly btw.

A thas an assumptions

B if you can show me a piece of thechnology that can create anything your imagination desires powered by emotion I'll give. The rings were crafted by the guardians using their powers and is powered by emotion. All I see from those posts is scarlet whitch using magic to overpower other beings not luck.

Not an assumption at all. I've shown them blowing up tech at their slightest whim and deactivating tech like Iron Man's armor.

Also it's literally tech. There's plenty of tech that can do that. The Worlogog for one, the rings for another. Doom and Luthor tech, Celestial tech, Galactus's tech, quantum bands, etc. And she's literally stated and shown using her hex powers which is her luck and probability manipulation.

1 now it's proven. If you'd like I can show scans of super mans hearing aswell but that seems obvious

2 if you'd like I'll give you a little info about an attosecond min one light can travel about 3 average sized molecules. Now you may be wondering how he even gets hit. That is pis. If he never got hit his books would be boring and he wouldn't sell

3 like I said I thought you pd be familiar with basic chemistry

4prove larfleeze ring is tech. Yes the explosions may hurt my team but it won't be a KO as much as an injury since we have extreme durability. Mr terrific isn't needed to beat your subpar team :)

5 yes but we'd just be roaming. It'd be unlikely we'd find your shield but it's possible. But very nice pun.

6 you assumed the ring is tech. You are also assuming what the luck will do. And I have now proved what I've said

7 if anyone on your team can solo dormammu that they should be banned.

1. But once you hear it, the sound is done as is the spell (it's instant). Plus we're still invisible and you have no way to pinpoint our location especially with lightning and cyclones going on.

2. He doesn't move at attosecond. That's a fact.

4. I don't have to, but either way it's affected. I showed tech and magic.

5. Glad we agree it's unlikely

6. I showed what luck will do. No assumption. They can and have directed their luck at will as I showed.

7. The power of luck baby!

1 nothing automatically happens

2 if you'd like proof I have a pretty good understanding of science and I've linked a few things. Everything I've said is true and if you don't believe my you can look it up.

3 said this before

4 larfleezes shields will protect us from any magic as I've proven and lighting won't break shields that have withstood green lantern blasts

5 just an if. Probably won't happen but there's a slight chance.

6 assuming the luck will affect the ring when it's not tech.

1. But hers does. She even stops entire things like time. It literally can't travel.

2. But we're not gas, we're phantom.

3.

STILL EDITING

@darkraiden: sorry dude the post limit ended yesterday, I gave you multiple warnings. That post won't count towards te debate. Please delete it.

@comicdude360: @darkraiden:

Ok so I can’t vote but I’m going to say what I thought on each debater.

I thought this was a pretty good debate, both sides debated well.

I think that overall, ComicDude360 would get my vote if I could vote, for a couple reasons.

First, DarkRaiden, you don’t need an article or a wiki page or whatever for the science bit. It’s common knowledge that cold is particles moving slowly and intangibility is particles moving fast. So I thought CDude could find your team with the vocal bit, that was very clever, and that he could counter the intangibility. Flash can run on the clouds and get to the team. On a side note (Didn’t take this into consideration) Flash has turned people from intangible to tangible before so there’s that.

I felt like DarkRaiden didn’t provide any feats for Zatanna’s shields. Barry hits with Infinite Mass and can do so multiple times in milliseconds. He can also just phase through the shields. While CDude definitely should have stressed that more, I felt like DarkRaiden didn’t really prove how strong Zatanna’s shields were, so it evens out.

What really got me though, is how weak DarkRaiden’s offense was. Regular humans have survived lightning, Barry/Bart are faster than lightning, Larfleeze has his shield and Terrific wasn’t even important to CDude’s case. Zatanna’s spells are nice, but Larfleeze’s magic absorption better. Larfleeze is coated with that Orange Light thing that was proven to absorb magic. and I didn’t buy that Zatanna would turn them all to chickens, she’s facing a Titan, a JL Member and a JSA guy, all of whom she is familiar with, and she's not bloodlusted.

Meanwhile, CDude had Barry Allen who was shown to be able to find your team (vibrations), counter their intangibility (freeze breath), and just hit them really hard for the KO.

However, all this does not mean CDude was without flaws in his argument either.

First thing: Dude, the way you structured your arguments made them an absolute pain to read. I’m sorry, but nobody wants to read just blocks of text. There is a header function for a reason, use that. Or use the bold. Also, quote him, nobody wants to scroll up to look at the other guy’s arguments.

I didn’t buy that Larfleeze would be bloodlusted. He has full knowledge on Terrific, I don’t think he would really trust him.

YOU NEED MORE SCANS. You had just enough to eke out the victory in my opinion, but more scans never hurt.

You should have stressed the infighting more. And maybe brought up AvX and Wanda’s position on it. Couldn’t hurt.

You also should have stressed that lightning isn’t that bad. This is a high tier tourney, most of these guys can tank lightning, and see what I said above about all your characters being mostly unaffected by lightning, you should have said that.

Another thing you should have said is that the luck users have to concentrate to activate their luck powers, at least offensively. That would have tipped the scales a little more in your favor.

I also think you should have used Bart more. He has the most speed force powers (clones and such) out of any Flash, and although he’s not as fast, I think you could have used it to your advantage.

Other than that, I think you had a pretty solid argument, the clincher being Barry Allen.

Since we can actually comment.

I felt like Darkraiden was simply cherry picking when he got in spots where he couldn't get out. Like Flash with attosecond reaction times. How could you possibly prove that he has that reaction time unless he tells you himself? Flash has always been known to know how fast he is moving. That isn't just statements.

I don't have to. Zatanna's spells have always shown to directly affect the person in question.

You said this quote yet you've shown no proof but require proof from Cdude? Anyways, I don't think I'm going to vote in this one. It was too much asking for proof, no proof, and terrible layouts for reading. Just wanted to make some comments.

@thenewbluebeetle007

I feel like I've told you this before but Barry doesn't perform IMPs. While it would make sense that he can; he hasn't.

@wardemon32: I really thought he could, I'm pretty sure I saw a scan of him doing it somewhere.

And even if he can't F = MA and Barry's acceleration is insane.

Should I tag you for the finals? (Me vs winner of this)

@thenewbluebeetle007:

sure

@thenewbluebeetle007: thanks anyway. Guess I'll bump it for votes. Does raiders latest post count to the debate or no.

@comicdude360: It doesn't count.

@dygoboy@boschepg@mortal@haoalchemist@roronuffy@sightlessreality@wyldsong@arcus@hulkage@comicace3

come vote if you have the time

@thenewbluebeetle007: k

Um...It's always been standard for us to go by feats and not statements though. or everyone's omnipotent and whatnot or has infinite strength etc. Plus Flash clearly has never displayed attosecond reaction speeds ever. Which I also pointed out.

For the Zatanna thing...my first post when I showed phantom form showed her magic directly affecting Lobo with nothing shooting out of her or anything. And also the main thing was....he never asked for proof of that.

And Beetle, Barry hasn't made intangible people tangible, and even Wally only did it to MMH who becomes intangible via density manipulation, not magic. Plus I've never actually seen cold temperatures work on intangibility in comics, especially not magical intangibility. Again it's phantom form not 'density manipulation'.

And why wouldn't my last post count? It got in before the limit. If anything it just can't be edited. That makes no sense.

Other things:

finding my team through voice while lightning is going on is again very unlikely, as that will muffle the sound, and we're invisible, AND as I've said the shields hvae blocked ghosts, Lobo, and other magic and physical attacks. Plus you know....once you can hear the voice, the spell's already done. Literally. So he can't move.

And I disagree on lightning. Lightning has been taken out comic heavy hitters for years and at the very least hurting them. From Hulk to Superman etc. and Flash has been hit with lightning before despite his speed.

@darkraiden: because it didn't get in before the limit. Right now it's 3:46. Your post got in 23 hours 41 minutes ago. That means your post was posted at 3:05 yesterday, which is wednesday december 3rd. The time limit was tuesday december second.

tag people for votes, else winner will be determined by coin flip.

and for the voice thing, it's not sound, it's vibrations. And because Barry can perceive everything in attoseconds if he wants to then no the spell wouldn't have been over by the team the vibrations reached him, and also Zatanna's voice is faster than the time it takes for Longshot/Wanda/Domino to start raining down lightning.

Don't respond to that argument, I don't feel like debating. If nobody votes today then I will flip a coin and the winner will advance.

vibrations=sound. Barry can't perceive in atoseconds.

I'm voting for Darkraiden, no real counters were made against Luck Manipulation, which could turn the tide of the battle at any stage.

Also, Wally was the one who made the Attot comment, and he is >>>>>>>>> Barry