How To Debate

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One_Tooth_Pianist

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Im new to this site and i just wanted to know if this would be useful for other viners who arent all that great at debating, like myself, and just wanted to know if any of my fellow viners could help all of us out on this.

I know a majority of you have your secrets on debating to a masterful extent, but would it be possible if some of you possibly put up a proper format on how to properly debate?

That would be awesome if you guys could help me out on this.

Thanks,

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kyrees

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#2  Edited By kyrees

@one_tooth_pianist: read the stickied threads. no point in creating a thread when all the question you are asking are all already answered there.

also, read the rules. this thread ain't battle forum material

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mickey-mouse

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This is a good topic...as I think you are asking for more than rules, but how to debate...but this is an Off Topic...click full edit to change it

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PrinceAragorn1

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Watch and learn, young disciple ;)

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dondave

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#5  Edited By dondave
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Iragexcudder

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#6  Edited By Iragexcudder

@lukehero said:

This is a good topic...as I think you are asking for more than rules, but how to debate...but this is an Off Topic...click full edit to change it

True, but wouldnt more viners want to see this? Especially with it being in the Battle Thread, where most viners are.. but yeah i do think it should be Off Topic.

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mickey-mouse

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@iragexcudder: True...solid points...but I don't make the rules...if he doesn't change it...eventually some mod will see it and just edit it for him...If he wants one on one coaching on how to debate he needs to read up on the subject he wants to debate then get more advice from an experienced Viner....I am a Noob Viner so I am trying to just hang back and learn from the best...

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deactivated-5c03864217ce8

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It's simple we kill the Batman.

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Iragexcudder

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#9  Edited By Iragexcudder

@lukehero said:

@iragexcudder: True...solid points...but I don't make the rules...if he doesn't change it...eventually some mod will see it and just edit it for him...If he wants one on one coaching on how to debate he needs to read up on the subject he wants to debate then get more advice from an experienced Viner....I am a Noob Viner so I am trying to just hang back and learn from the best...

I feel ya bud. Well see how it goes out, maybe itll be pinned one day? 0_o

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God_of_Batman

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Honestly, I don't see this getting moved. It's a very good idea and I doubt the mods will have a problem with it. There are other threads in the battles section that aren't actual battles (i.e. the "Feat Check!" thread) and not only do the mods not move them, but they actually post in them themselves. However, considering the "Feat Check!" thread has been around for a while and hasn't been pinned yet I highly doubt this one will be. I picture this thread's just going to be floating around the battles section for a good while.

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kyrees

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Strider1992

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I can sum it up in only a few sentences:

  • Listen to your opponent and take on-board what he/she is trying to tell you
  • Research who you're debating for (posting out of context scans is the bane of most debaters)
  • Do not get angry or lose your cool
  • Have fun!
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MonsterStomp

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In the words of Farther Leone in Man of Steel: Sometimes, you have to take a leap of faith first. The trust part comes later

In other words, wing it and hope for the best. That's how I do it :P

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MetalJimmor

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Provide feats when asked for them if at all possible. It's a courtesy to the person you're debating against, and failure to provide feats or trying to go after flaws in the opponent's logic in some way without backing up your own claims is poor debating, and a bit rude to be honest.

It's also best not to debate in a thread unless you have at least a cursory knowledge of both combatants.

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TifaLockhart

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The best advice I can offer is not to take things too seriously. Which is hard to do sometimes.

At the end of the day, does it matter if Marvel's Thor can beat up Superman or not? Meant to be for learning and/or fun.

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Pokergeist

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#16  Edited By Pokergeist

I can sum it up in only a few sentences:

  • Listen to your opponent and take on-board what he/she is trying to tell you
  • Research who you're debating for (posting out of context scans is the bane of most debaters)
  • Do not get angry or lose your cool
  • Have fun!

Everything I do not do. Huh.......

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beatboks1

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#17  Edited By beatboks1
  1. Treat every debate, even about characters you think you know as though you can learn from it. The man who thinks he knows everything will never question enough to come up with the right answers
  2. be respectful as much as possible but always remember the person your talking to may be of a different cultural influence so their comments may not always be intended as you think and they may take things you thought a passing thought to heart ( i come across this a lot)
  3. explain your position clearly and offer evidence as you can ( that doesn't always mean offering scans some of the best debaters like @buckshot rarely do, simply offering a storyline, ark or issue is sufficient
  4. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Think about an actual debate for example in a political cabinet, it's meant to get to some truth or work out the best way. If someone your debating is truly on the wrong path the right questions will clarify that, if you are it will do the same

That's for normal open debates

Tournaments and CaV's ( more for tourney's though)

  1. Consider tactics carefully, then think of the tactics an opponent might make, think of the counters your opponent might make to the tactics you've thought of and what could have prevented that from working. Rinse repeat and THEN make your first post
  2. be prepared to offer context that excludes low showings (they'll inevitably be thrown at you)
  3. make sure you have a few supporting examples ready to back up any case your planning to make ( the alternative to have it shot down as Out of character or PIS.
  4. Don't be afraid to get inside an opponents head and direct their game play somewhere you want it to be other then the normal path they might take. The way to do this is usually in the tourney set up thread by making a big deal about a power or character trait on one character that also exists in one of your opponents, to push the idea as ploy to use. Another is to pre warn you opponents of "some" of teh options at your disposal in the powersets of your team. While there busy planning a defense for said powerset your planning an attack for the counter to it.

that's it for now

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green_skaar

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#19  Edited By green_skaar

1. Educate yourself. About all characters in question, if you don't know the characters you probably shouldn't be debating them and instead listen and learn.

2. Debate to learn, not to win. It's okay to lose and concede points.

3. Don't just look up feats, look up comics the feats are in. The context is often more important than the feat itself, sometimes making it way more or less impressive than you thought by reading an isolated panel.

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I_am_Warlock

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Dont be a jerk and listen to others , analyse and present your case.

Its not really difficult.

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marvel_boy2241

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#21  Edited By marvel_boy2241

@one_tooth_pianist Dude, just try your best. Sometimes people on here will say that you are too new to even be close to their level. When they say that laugh and tell them to get out. People here are always trying to get on others' balls. Tell them to hop off. But don't forget there are plenty of friendly people here. So, don't be paranoid of everyone. The post limit is going to be really annoying. So, just deal with it. It's not as long as it seems. Be smart and make sure you evaluate the post you are responding to. I messed up once or twice when I started out but I also did good in some battle threads. I think everyone does every once in a while. Don't get too serious over this stuff, though. At the end of the day we're just people arguing over fictional characters lol. So, just have lots of fun. If a debate is ever getting to frisky for you, just call me in, bro. I got your back.

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Sovereign91001

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#22  Edited By Sovereign91001

Since I do most of my debating in tournaments and the occasional Cav my tips apply to those situations mostly.

Have an adaptable strategy: Don't go into a debate with a rigged plan of attack, be fluid have counters and counters for your counters. Make sure your strategy is understandable and thought out. Like in chess, try to anticipate your opponents moves so you can stay one step ahead.

Research, research, research: The more you know about your character's and your opponents, the better you'll be able to know when to use scans correctly and when your opponent is using theirs out of context or incorrectly.

Stay Frosty: Debating when your angry or upset is the worst thing you can do, you'll make mistakes and you're opponent will capitalize on them. Not to mention, you'll come off looking like an ass, which is even worse. Be respectful of your opponent and most times, they will be respectful of you.

Judicious usage of scans: Nothing sinks a debate faster than out of context or off topic scans. Scan spaming also makes reading a debate a chore, there's a balance you need to find that suits your strategy. Imo scans should be used to accentuate a point or provide evidence for a point of contention, not to be used as a 'my character is so cool, check out what he/she can do!'

Be concise: Try and avoid going in circles; Make your debate as clean and concise as possible; engage your opponent but don't belabor points. Be prepared to defend everything you post and make note of any holes in your opponents strategy.

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Iragexcudder

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Great idea

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jeepeh

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It's simple, we kill the Batman.

Fixed.

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Jmarshmallow

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@lardplanet: I laughed harder than I should have.

Jmarshmallow

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RetconCrisis

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Don't say a single line and not give proof. That's all for me to say.

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Wolverine008

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Since I do most of my debating in tournaments and the occasional Cav my tips apply to those situations mostly.

Have an adaptable strategy: Don't go into a debate with a rigged plan of attack, be fluid have counters and counters for your counters. Make sure your strategy is understandable and thought out. Like in chess, try to anticipate your opponents moves so you can stay one step ahead.

Research, research, research: The more you know about your character's and your opponents, the better you'll be able to know when to use scans correctly and when your opponent is using theirs out of context or incorrectly.

Stay Frosty: Debating when your angry or upset is the worst thing you can do, you'll make mistakes and you're opponent will capitalize on them. Not to mention, you'll come off looking like an ass, which is even worse. Be respectful of your opponent and most times, they will be respectful of you.

Judicious usage of scans: Nothing sinks a debate faster than out of context or off topic scans. Scan spaming also makes reading a debate a chore, there's a balance you need to find that suits your strategy. Imo scans should be used to accentuate a point or provide evidence for a point of contention, not to be used as a 'my character is so cool, check out what he/she can do!'

Be concise: Try and avoid going in circles; Make your debate as clean and concise as possible; engage your opponent but don't belabor points. Be prepared to defend everything you post and make note of any holes in your opponents strategy.

  1. Treat every debate, even about characters you think you know as though you can learn from it. The man who thinks he knows everything will never question enough to come up with the right answers
  2. be respectful as much as possible but always remember the person your talking to may be of a different cultural influence so their comments may not always be intended as you think and they may take things you thought a passing thought to heart ( i come across this a lot)
  3. explain your position clearly and offer evidence as you can ( that doesn't always mean offering scans some of the best debaters like @buckshot rarely do, simply offering a storyline, ark or issue is sufficient
  4. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Think about an actual debate for example in a political cabinet, it's meant to get to some truth or work out the best way. If someone your debating is truly on the wrong path the right questions will clarify that, if you are it will do the same

That's for normal open debates

Tournaments and CaV's ( more for tourney's though)

  1. Consider tactics carefully, then think of the tactics an opponent might make, think of the counters your opponent might make to the tactics you've thought of and what could have prevented that from working. Rinse repeat and THEN make your first post
  2. be prepared to offer context that excludes low showings (they'll inevitably be thrown at you)
  3. make sure you have a few supporting examples ready to back up any case your planning to make ( the alternative to have it shot down as Out of character or PIS.
  4. Don't be afraid to get inside an opponents head and direct their game play somewhere you want it to be other then the normal path they might take. The way to do this is usually in the tourney set up thread by making a big deal about a power or character trait on one character that also exists in one of your opponents, to push the idea as ploy to use. Another is to pre warn you opponents of "some" of teh options at your disposal in the powersets of your team. While there busy planning a defense for said powerset your planning an attack for the counter to it.

that's it for now

Very well said words of advice if I say so myself.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#28  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

There's good stuff here but this is my favorite:

@green_skaar said:

2. Debate to learn, not to win. It's okay to lose and concede points.

This doesn't really apply to CAVs because the whole point is to "beat" the person you're talking to, but in a regular thread when you find yourself thinking differently from someone else, decide if you're there for a conversation or a debate. Other than correcting people who are spreading incorrect information about characters I like, most of my "debates" at this point come from me asking people questions about their positions, whether its the whole thing or just parts of it, and are about me trying to figure out what makes the most sense. You have to decide if you're trying to "win" or if you're trying to get to the right conclusion about who would win in a fight. If your goal is to figure out who wins more than to prove you are right, then you're more likely to leave without anyone getting their feelings hurt, and I find those conversations to be more interesting anyway. I learned this from @forever.

But if you are trying to debate, as I said, there's good stuff in this thread for you to practice. This may also be useful.

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Dratini1331

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Watch and learn, young disciple ;)

Don't watch this guy though :P

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XiiX

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#30  Edited By XiiX

1. Post the highest end feats for the character you're debating for(while discrediting your opponent for doing the same)

2. Post the lowest end feats for the character you're debating against(while discrediting your opponent for doing the same)

3. Call most circumstances that discredit your character's feats PIS/CIS/WIS/etc.

4. Call most circumstances that work in favor of your opponents's charcter PIS/CIS/WIS etc.

5. Claim to abide "consistency" yet still propagate rules #1 and 2.

6. Profit

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Wolverine008

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#31  Edited By Wolverine008

@xiix said:

1. Post the highest end feats for the character you're debating for

2. Post the lowest end feats for the character you're debating against

3. Call most circumstances that discredit your character's feats PIS/CIS/WIS/etc.

4. Call most circumstances that work in favor of your opponents's charcter PIS/CIS/WIS etc.

5. Claim to abide "consistency" yet still propagate rules #1 and 2.

6. Profit

LMAO.

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ShootingNova

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^ LOL.

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Wyldsong

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I can sum it up in only a few sentences:

  • Listen to your opponent and take on-board what he/she is trying to tell you
  • Research who you're debating for (posting out of context scans is the bane of most debaters)
  • Do not get angry or lose your cool
  • Have fun!

The bolded and underlined needs to be pointed out again, and remembered. There is ton of misinformation and half truths that are perpetuated by scans being posted out of context, which makes for less than honest debate, and can be quite embarrassing when proven wrong. While it is great that there are respect threads, be sure to verify the context around any scan you choose to take from it.

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ShootingNova

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It's unfortunate that some people simply attack every form of evidence by claiming it's out-of-context without providing evidence of their own to indicate that. Some people disregard evidence altogether. LOL.

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Wyldsong

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It's unfortunate that some people simply attack every form of evidence by claiming it's out-of-context without providing evidence of their own to indicate that. Some people disregard evidence altogether. LOL.

Well, context is easy prove with research and proof. The problem, the out of context stuff happens so often, that some people just get into that habit of calling it as such.

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ShootingNova

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@wyldsong: True, but it's frustrating when people just ignore evidence altogether and attack you.

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Wyldsong

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#37  Edited By Wyldsong

@wyldsong: True, but it's frustrating when people just ignore evidence altogether and attack you.

Meh, some people will choose to remain blind, even if you can prove the sky is really blue=)

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ShootingNova

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#38  Edited By ShootingNova

@wyldsong: There's always colorblind people in the world :P

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Carter_esque

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NighThunder

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Well

  1. Refute everything your opponent says, even if their right, this makes it so your opponent gets pissed
  2. Take ever scan and feat and blow it completely out of proportion. Meaning, take it out of context in a positive manner
  3. If you seem to be loosing just keep calling your opponent illogical and post a buttt-load of scans so it seems like your the better debater

Do these and DON'T llisten to anything anyone says, and you'll be fine

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PrinceAragorn1

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@dratini1331 said:

@princearagorn1 said:

Watch and learn, young disciple ;)

Don't watch this guy though :P

HA.

He's right, don't start by watching the experts, it can be dangerous.. watch these guys first instead, they just learned what debating is :p

Then you can join the heavy hitters and watch me ;)

No Caption Provided

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Iragexcudder

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Trololololol

Just be rhetorical, make your opponent think you're oblivious to a scan that you 120% know you can counter.

Never have a plan B, it always disappoints and takes your mind away from your first plan.

Debate respectfully, take in every scan both good and bad, and use your knowledge to work your way around your opponent.

Just have fun

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SuperDrummer

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#43  Edited By SuperDrummer

1. Only debate for characters you will be able to find evidence for. I would never even get in a serious debate on spiderman vs superman if I didn't have a scan or thirty in my back pocket.

2. NEVER supply evidence for the opposite side's argument. You'd think this would be obvious, but despite virtually nothing more potentially catastrophic than it, it happens. Research your opponent's characters, but don't actually show the evidence that you did, and only debate against the points that they raise. For example, you know that your enemy can speedblitz, don't give an argument against speedblitz unless your opposition brings it up first.

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green_skaar

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@xiix said:

1. Post the highest end feats for the character you're debating for(while discrediting your opponent for doing the same)

2. Post the lowest end feats for the character you're debating against(while discrediting your opponent for doing the same)

3. Call most circumstances that discredit your character's feats PIS/CIS/WIS/etc.

4. Call most circumstances that work in favor of your opponents's charcter PIS/CIS/WIS etc.

5. Claim to abide "consistency" yet still propagate rules #1 and 2.

6. Profit

LOL, so true here. Especially 3/4

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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I would say:

  • Be honest with your debate. If you're overly competitive with it, it makes the debate not as fun (at least it does for me). The point of these debates is to create a hypothetical battle. It really shouldn't matter very much if you win or lose. Obviously you want to point out the strengths of the characters you're debating for, but if you really don't believe your characters would win, then you probably shouldn't try to create outlandish reasons of why they would. If you want some good examples of why not to do this, check out some of the older Hulk, Batman, Super Man, DBZ threads (that are now locked) and you'll see how ridiculous some of the claims were of what their characters are capable of. You can win debates with this method, because people with less knowledge will vote for you, but it comes off as cheap and fan-boyish. It also takes a lot of the fun out of doing this. Basically, don't be stubborn, and admit if your character's can't win. Also, there is nothing wrong with the characters I mentioned above, they are just good examples because of the high volumes of people who comment in their threads. There are some individuals on here that have immense knowledge on them, and debate completely respectfully and reasonably with them, and it's a joy to read their stuff. Here's a link to a CaV I did where I admitted that my team loses before even having a vote. I could have come up with unfeasible reasons why they could win, but if winning is your main goal, then you're doing it for the wrong reason. (I'm tparks by the way, I changed my account name) http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/cav-snake-bigboss-nickz-vs-splinter-shredder-tpark-1497566/
  • Ignore everything everyone tells you (including me!) and find your own style of debating. There are plenty of cookie cutter debates that are basically copied and pasted respect threads with a "VS" in between them. Bring something new to the table, if you can. Make your own scans instead of relying on google searches or other people's work. There's nothing wrong with that, but I love learning something new when I read a debate.
  • Forget everything else, and remember the only important thing. Don't get upset about what people say. Threads designed for arguing is a nesting ground for Trolls. Comicvine is, for the most part, surprisingly Troll-free, but you'll run into your fair share of them. A lot of people don't even realize they are trolling, so don't take it personally or respond to them. Some people just don't know how to respond to someone telling them they are wrong. Don't let arguing about fictional characters have any importance on your life.
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theONEtaichou

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  1. Treat every debate, even about characters you think you know as though you can learn from it. The man who thinks he knows everything will never question enough to come up with the right answers
  2. be respectful as much as possible but always remember the person your talking to may be of a different cultural influence so their comments may not always be intended as you think and they may take things you thought a passing thought to heart ( i come across this a lot)
  3. explain your position clearly and offer evidence as you can ( that doesn't always mean offering scans some of the best debaters like @buckshot rarely do, simply offering a storyline, ark or issue is sufficient
  4. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Think about an actual debate for example in a political cabinet, it's meant to get to some truth or work out the best way. If someone your debating is truly on the wrong path the right questions will clarify that, if you are it will do the same

this...esp. 2 I suffer from that. At times I feel I have to Americanize when I debate certain people lest I unintentionally offend/insult/belittle/obfuscate/troll them or their points due to tone/prose/wit etc. I have been accused of such.

Another thing is...LOGIC! trumps everything. It trumps feats/scans/number of people cheering/booing you... it trumps everything. In fact logical debating is seemingly a lost skill in life in general, cultivate the skill. You gain nothing by winning a debate about nonexistent comic characters via illogical debating but you gain so much more (beyond CV into real life) even if you lose if you are logical. The ability to recognise and move beyond your biased presuppositions is what seperates debaters from mere talkers.

Lastly... have fun. Superman or whoever are not real. Never tie your life to a debate about them. So just have fun... like I'm about to do with this...

  • Ignore everything everyone tells you (including me!) and find your own style of debating.

...lol, what a fun philosophical conundrum this piece of advice is! :D

EPIC!

btw... there are few Rules you must adhere to, in order for you to be a great debater:

1: Hulk is the strongest there is! And in any debate any character that fights Hulk must ALWAYS be lowballed into forgetting all their advantages over Hulk and must instead have resort to a punch fest! If opponent still wins... then Hulk wins by being any of the following: unlimited strength/being green/world breaker/gets angry enough/opponent sucks... preferably a combination of the above to give credibility. Repeat ad nauseum.

2: Thor has ftl combat speed, he doesn't have scans because he is holding back 110% ALL. THE. TIME!

3: Dr Manhattan is weak, because in Watchmen he is the only one with powers. Therefore his matter manipulation would be trumped by a pencil from DC/Marvel.

4: Superman does not lose, nay cannot lose! It has been decreed and shall forever stand!

5: Flash loses especially with Bloodlust/Morals Off in a CV Battle Thread because even mosquitos have tagged him in a DC comic book.

6: And lastly thou shall prostrate thine self and genuflect before THANOS (or Doom if you want to stay multiversal). THANOS!

good day