Holden Carver vs Batman

Holden Carver

vs

Batman

Rules and Conditions

• NO PREP FOR BATMAN
• Holden has been assigned by TAO to kill Batman, he follows him for one night, observing him.

Round 1

Holden has discovered Batman's secret identity and attempts to kill him during office hours, Bruce has just left a meeting, he is wearing civilian clothes. Holden has his guns.

Round 2

Holden attempts to kill Batman after his night out, standard gear for both.

Who wins and why?

I'm going to regret this

Feats for Holden?

Jmarshmallow

Maybe Holden,maybe

@jmarshmallow: Check his forum

No idea who the other guy is. So, Batman wins!

@rbt: There's a link

No scans for Holden, Batman stomps, it's automatic.

I did, and I say Batman.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: @lukehero: Both rounds?

His forum has a dozen scans, I know because I made it. How does batman win?

@jacthripper: Carver the two rounds.

Batman can't really wounds him.

He can one-shot Batman from range or at close.

@jacthripper: Mate, I was joking. No scans doesn't allow character A. to beat Character B.

@jacthripper: It seems like Bats is superior in most aspects...

Jmarshmallow

Round 1: Fighting Holden would be like fighting a Talon with pain powers and pistols, however, Holden doesn't seem to be a particularly skilled fighter and I've only seen him beat up fodder. Bruce would walk all over him even if he is unarmed and in a $500,000 suit. Bruce's skills of threat detection along with his contact lenses would tip him off about a pursuer. The OP didn't specify but since he just came out of a meeting and Holden is after Bruce I assume this takes place in Bruce's home turf, he could ghost Holden in any part of Gotham day or night and he doesn't need his suit n toys to do it. If Holden loses sight of Bruce, it is game over. If Holden spots him, Bruce can aim dodge to get to cover and close the distance. If the fight gets physical, and it will, Bruce will put him down easily. Not only is Holden physically/mentally/tactically outmatched, but hasn't got the skill or speed to keep up or stop Bruce from disarming him. Bruce is smart enough to figure out if someone can regenerate and if he gets hit with the pain powers, he can deal with it cus it's not like Holden is going to be able to shoot himself before getting his guns taken away. Once Bruce gets a taste of his own medicine, he drops Holden with pressure points and locks him in his bullet proof Lamborghini Veneno.

Round 2: Knockout Gas. But really, Bruce stomps.

@ancient_0f_days: Should have specified, the first fight takes place in Wayne Tower.Batman has just walked out of a meeting. If it does get physical, what's to prevent Holden from KO with a touch? Round 2 I can understand, but round one skin to skin contact is likely.

Cus Holden actually has to take legit damage to KO someone with one touch (like a bullet to the chest or head) and Bruce actually has a crap ton of pain tolerance so one touch that might KO a normal fodder thug might not KO Batman due to his feats of heavy pain tolerance and endurance. Also, the fact that Bruce is going to lopsidedly stomp Holden in H2H means that Holden isn't going to KO Bruce with a pain touch. Like I said, Holden isn't going to be causing massive pain to himself without his weapons while Bruce is on him and if Bruce hurts him and feels the pain touch while hitting him, he can drop Holden with pressure points or simply avoid skin contact. If the fight is in Wayne tower, Bruce stomps cus he owns the place and has automated security

@jacthripper: Also, since this fight takes place in a place similar to the William Cobb fight....

Bruce won that fight while injured and trying to hide his skill, he can beat Holden in a similar way ...

@ancient_0f_days: @jmarshmallow: It seems that Batman is not aware about Holden's powers in that fight.
And Carver takes the initiative.

If you read my post you'd see how easy it'd be for Bruce to figure his powers out and Holden needs more than a head start to catch Bruce Wayne off guard.

Talons powers have nothing to do with the Alien Artefact inside Holden Carver's body.

He is far more dangerous than any Talon Batman can fight.

Talon's don't need alien artifacts to produce a regenerative healing factor like Holden, Talons can actually fight btw, Holden is a street brawler and a marksman but not even on the level of half of the marksmen that Batman has had to deal with. And being more dangerous than a single Talon is still fodder status. Like I said, Bruce was injured and holding back when he beat that Talon off of Wayne Tower. He has fought off a dozen Talons while drugged in his damn bathrobe. He soloed 15 League of Assassin Man-Bats armed with swords with his bare hands in a nice suit and was casually talking on the phone afterwards while they lay strewn about the street. he didn't get a scratch on him, what, do you think Holden is some kind of a threat to Bruce? I'll let you know now, he's not. Not even with his pain powers can he produce enough trauma to KO Bruce before getting tagged with pressure points and thrown off the building.

Wrong.

Actually he can whistand bullets while wearing a t-shirt and can channel the pain to give to Bruce an heart attack.
Just with a soft touch of his skin.
And pressure points are useless.
They are strikes to nerves and weak parts of the body, Carver has none.
And he have an healing factor.

I've seen his feats, I know how his powers work, only way he can generate enough pain to give someone a heart attack is for him to receive an injury that would or might kill a normal person ... Bruce doesn't have a gun and would easily disarm Holden, if Holden can't shoot himself, he's not gonna have enough pain to give out to do enough damage. And guess who else has a healing factor but can still have his pressure points hit, Wolverine, it didn't last long but it doesn't have to here. Pressure points will work and you cannot prove otherwise, and besides, Batman fought an enemy who couldn't feel pain either and pressure points worked splendidly. Oh and I clearly didn't know Holden had a healing factor, thank you for telling me or I would have never known.

Bruce stomps both rounds for actually knowing how to fight.

What tells you that he will not charge his power before the fight ?
He did it before.

Pressure points will work and you cannot prove otherwise >>> on a guy who stays concious after the amount of punishment he takes on the comics ? Not even close.

Don't know who Holden Carver is, but I don't see how Bruce can dodge bullets.

Post it then, I've seen his feats and didn't see it happen. Prove your point, I'll counter it.

Tell that to Wolverine...

And call the next one PIS cus Ennis wrote it but it shows consistency with how pressure points and throat strikes can effect someone as durable as Wolverine.

And once more, even someone as durable as Wolverine can be effected by pressure points ...

Now, I know for sure that Wolverine is WAY more durable than Holden, once again, you cannot prove that pressure points will not effect him, Holden loses. Also, Bruce can avoid skin contact.

@legacy6364 said:

Yeah you can....

Anyway, Batman wrecks Holden

@ancient_0f_days: I stand corrected. Batman has proven once again to be superhuman.

@ancient_0f_days: I agree with this gentlemen.

Would you expect anything less from the goddamn batman?

@ancient_0f_days said:

@realitywarper said:

What tells you that he will not charge his power before the fight ?

He did it before.

Post it then, I've seen his feats and didn't see it happen. Prove your point, I'll counter it.

@realitywarper said:

Pressure points will work and you cannot prove otherwise >>> on a guy who stays concious after the amount of punishment he takes on the comics ? Not even close.

Tell that to Wolverine...

And call the next one PIS cus Ennis wrote it but it shows consistency with how pressure points and throat strikes can effect someone as durable as Wolverine.

Actually you are wrong about Holden :

Holden is fine after a bullet in his head.
Wolverine would just pass out.
He is immune to attacks on his pressure points because his nervous system was changed .

And once more, even someone as durable as Wolverine can be effected by pressure points ...

Now, I know for sure that Wolverine is WAY more durable than Holden, once again, you cannot prove that pressure points will not effect him, Holden loses. Also, Bruce can avoid skin contact.

@legacy6364 said:

Don't know who Holden Carver is, but I don't see how Bruce can dodge bullets.

Yeah you can....

Anyway, Batman wrecks Holden

Besides that Carver is a marksman :

And is used to be stealthy :

Enough to take Batman down :

Round 1 Holden can do it If he's at his best

Round 2 bats stomps.

@realitywarper: I suppose you don't realize how your argument doesn't prove that Holden is good enough to actually beat Batman at all ...

Wolverine doesn't get knocked out by bullets to the head, a shotgun to the face didn't do so a single bullet wont.

The fact that Ennis wrote it doesn't make it less relevant.

So, you clearly don't have all the facts. Also, are you suggesting that Holden is more durable than Wolverine? I know Holden doesn't feel pain but Wolverine's pain tolerance and overall durability puts him way above Holden in that regard. Not to mention, the artifact attached itself to Holden's nervous system and makes it so that he cannot feel pain but it said NOTHING about his nervous system being completely immune to pressure points, pressure points aren't hit through pain, pressure points can cause pain and other effects because they send signals to the brain and make the person getting hit comply regardless of if they feel pain or not. His nervous system may have been invaded, but it wasn't shut down and that is the only way for pressure points to be completely ineffective. As long as Holden has nerves, a nervous system and a brain, pressure points will be effective until the writer makes it clear that they they don't work on him. On the subject of people who can't feel pain, neither does this guy....

I have effectively proven how why pressure points would be effective on Holden and you have not. moving on .... So what if he's a good shot, so is Deadshot ...

In fact, Deadshot is a better marksman than Holden could ever be ... Holden would get raped by Deadshot in a draw even if he was drunk. I'm going to show you probably one of the least impressive examples of Deadshot's Marksman skill.

And even though he has been stated to hold back on Bruce and doesn't want to kill him, he will still shoot him in places where he has armor, and he is armored almost everywhere. Batman still manages to dodge those shots and has even beaten a drunk Deadshot in an old west style duel with a Batarang.

Now, I'm not going to make this about how he compares to Deadshot because there are other marksmen who had better marksman tools and still couldn't shoot Bruce

Holden has pistols here and he isn't good enough to snipe Bruce with pistol rounds ... next, I will commend you for actually proving that Holden has pre charged his pain powers before using them on an unsuspecting person. However, saying that he's stealthy enough to get the drop on Bruce Wayne and posting him getting the drop on a naked, 60 year old fat guy is about as bad as it gets. Honestly, stop. I mean, do I even need to prove just how stealthy Batman is? Do I need to prove just how good he is at detecting people? I could easily, I have everything I need to and I could right now, but do you really want to see how wrong you are that badly?

@ancient_0f_days said:

@realitywarper: I suppose you don't realize how your argument doesn't prove that Holden is good enough to actually beat Batman at all ...

Wolverine doesn't get knocked out by bullets to the head, a shotgun to the face didn't do so a single bullet wont.

The fact that Ennis wrote it doesn't make it less relevant.

So, you clearly don't have all the facts. Also, are you suggesting that Holden is more durable than Wolverine? I know Holden doesn't feel pain but Wolverine's pain tolerance and overall durability puts him way above Holden in that regard. Not to mention, the artifact attached itself to Holden's nervous system and makes it so that he cannot feel pain but it said NOTHING about his nervous system being completely immune to pressure points, pressure points aren't hit through pain, pressure points can cause pain and other effects because they send signals to the brain and make the person getting hit comply regardless of if they feel pain or not. His nervous system may have been invaded, but it wasn't shut down and that is the only way for pressure points to be completely ineffective. As long as Holden has nerves, a nervous system and a brain, pressure points will be effective until the writer makes it clear that they they don't work on him. On the subject of people who can't feel pain, neither does this guy....

I have effectively proven how why pressure points would be effective on Holden and you have not. moving on .... So what if he's a good shot, so is Deadshot ...

In fact, Deadshot is a better marksman than Holden could ever be ... Holden would get raped by Deadshot in a draw even if he was drunk. I'm going to show you probably one of the least impressive examples of Deadshot's Marksman skill.

And even though he has been stated to hold back on Bruce and doesn't want to kill him, he will still shoot him in places where he has armor, and he is armored almost everywhere. Batman still manages to dodge those shots and has even beaten a drunk Deadshot in an old west style duel with a Batarang.

Now, I'm not going to make this about how he compares to Deadshot because there are other marksmen who had better marksman tools and still couldn't shoot Bruce

Holden has pistols here and he isn't good enough to snipe Bruce with pistol rounds ... next, I will commend you for actually proving that Holden has pre charged his pain powers before using them on an unsuspecting person. However, saying that he's stealthy enough to get the drop on Bruce Wayne and posting him getting the drop on a naked, 60 year old fat guy is about as bad as it gets. Honestly, stop. I mean, do I even need to prove just how stealthy Batman is? Do I need to prove just how good he is at detecting people? I could easily, I have everything I need to and I could right now, but do you really want to see how wrong you are that badly?

1) A shotgun shell is not a bullet.
2) When you put a bullet in your brain, and you have to know that the brain is the central nervous system, with little to no effect, pressure points are useless. Your scan is irrelevant : You shows a guy with some degree of durability, Carver is not as durable as him but invulnerable. He have no knockback when shot by bullets.

3) Deadshot will never kill Batman in a story for the sake of the continuity of DC comics. I proved that Holden Carver is a superb marksman too.

4) There is no mention that Batman knows that Carver was assigned to kill him, nor that he knows that he was observed during one night : Carver has the advantage.

5) ROFL ! Nice lowballing of the character :"Holden has pistols here and he isn't good enough to snipe Bruce with pistol rounds ... next" Carver always do precise shots in the whole arc, in the brain, throat, heart... I'm not even sure that he missed his target even one time.

5) Batman is not an unsuspecting person : Carver is clearly here to kill him. Do you want to see the scan where Grendel overstealth Batman with no technology and a long spear ? :D

Do you really want to see how wrong you are that badly ?

6) You gave no answer to Carver's invulnerability and healing factor.

7) You gave no answer to Carver's pain channeling powers that will overcome and kill Batman in a hand-to-hand fight.

8) Your answer about the impressive marksmanship of Carver is not satisfacting it is barely : "Batman has never been shot, nor killed for the sake of the story so Carver can't kill him".

Next round. ;)

@realitywarper: Ha, you can' t be serious

You say that as if you are trying to prove me wrong, you're not. With this statement, you must be under the impression that a shotgun shell to the face is less powerful than a bullet at point blank range?

He dropped to the ground and you say there was little to no effect? He regenerated. When he got back up, he was completely healed. You act as if he was still doing something while he has a hole through his head? He was clean out until he healed back up. My scan is irrelevant? I showed you a superhuman who didn't feel any pain and was still put down by pressure points, you call my scan irrelevant without any proof of how it is. Knockback has nothing to do with it, in an episode of mythbusters they hung a pig to ring that would swing if there was enough force behind what hit the pig, they shot it with pistols and there was no knock back. Knock back from small arms fire is a myth that looks good in movies, comics and TV shows. Holden may be an unrealistic comic character but just because he wasn't knocked back it doesn't mean he is invulnerable, he fell on his ass right after the shot so your point is moot.

That's an irrelevant point to make considering the fact that Deadshot has has shot and wounded Batman plenty of times, also, I did mention that Deadshot doesn't kill Batman because he doesn't want to, not cus he is bound by the plot. Once again, so what if Holden is a good shot? Deadshot is a better shot and he still misses from time to time. Have you forgotten that Deadshot is one of the best marksmen in the DC Universe and would walk all over Holden? You can't even compare the two, Deadshot could shoot the wings off of a hummingbird and can easily ricochet his bullets without even looking. Carver being a superb marksman means nothing to Bruce, he dodges sniper rifle bullets after they are fired and moves out of the way of minigunfire, he dodges shots from the best marksman in the world and takes peoples automatic guns away while they are being fired at him. Holden isn't good enough.

So did the sniper on the roof, he got a Batarang to the face .

Holden has only been shown shooting CANNON FODDER, guess who else never misses a shot against cannon fodder, Deadshot. But guess who has actually shot people who can dodge bullets, Deadshot. Guess who can ricochet bullets with their head turned and get head/heart shots, Deadshot. Guess who can make a bullet dodging superhuman with super speed afraid of him, Deadshot (this super human could deflect bullets with paper clips). Deadshot is above Holden in every level of accuracy and yet you think he's going to hit Bruce Wayne who easily dodges bullets, sniper rounds and hails of machine gunfire from random shooters and dodges bullets from people with super human accuracy ... Oh please. Once again, Holden has pistols here and he isn't good enough to snipe Bruce with pistol rounds.

Do you want to see the scan where Batman breaks into area 51 undetected and comes back without the league knowing? Do you want to see the scan where Cassandra Cain (someone who is equal to Batman on many levels and surpasses him in speed) is trying to follow Batman undetected and he knew where she was the entire time? Holden isn't Grendel, Holden isn't Bane, Holden isn't going to be able to catch Batman off guard at all without being spotted long before he realizes he was seen. Batman may not know that there is someone after him, but Batman may not have seen that there was a guy on a roof trying to snipe him either. Still got the sniper on the roof, still knew Cassandra was following him, he'll find out about Holden easily.

Pressure points, being a better fighter.

Bruce has a near super human pain tolerance, he's faster than Holden, if he gets hit with pain he'll fight through it like he has when he was electrocuted and he'll know Holden's powers after that, from there he'll easily dominate by not making skin contact, since the fight is in Wayne Tower, Bruce throws him out of a window.

I don't care how satisfied you are with my answer, I am correct and that is simply the truth, I specifically stated that Deadshot has shot Batman ...

You lose.

Thought about it, Bruce wins.

@realitywarper: You can cry Lowballing all you want, and I never said anything close to Batman never loses. I simply stated that Batman wont lose to Holden and showed exactly why, that is all. Holden isn't fast enough to tag Bruce, Batman's fight with Nightwing established that if Bruce doesn't want to be tagged by someone less skilled/slower than he is, he wont be tagged. Nightwing is faster and more skilled than Holden, he was given a freebie hit and the Batman ignored him and dodged him like he wasn't there. You have nothing to counter the fact that Holden isn't going to land a bullet shot or a physical blow on Bruce.

You showed no means to counter Carver's advantage.
Not even a solution how to wound him.

You have nothing to counter the fact that Holden isn't going to land a bullet shot or a physical blow on Bruce. <<<<<<<<< Holden has taken on superhumans.

Nightwing is faster and more skilled than Holden, he was given a freebie hit and the Batman ignored him and dodged him like he wasn't there <<<<<< Nightwing has no metahuman powers.

Holden isn't fast enough to tag Bruce <<<<<<<< His bullets are. If he overstealth Batman he will, if Batman goes in close combat Holden will touch him wathever happens because he can tank Batman hits during an unlimited period and Batman simply can't.

I did and Batman doesn't need to wound him, knocking Holden off the building is good enough for BFR

Batman has beaten super humans more super than the ones Holden has fought. Half of DC earth is scared of Batman because of how many super humans he's beaten.

You have no point. Nightwing is faster and a better fighter than Holden but was unable to even tag Batman when he didn't want to be tagged, Holden will not tag Batman unless he wants to be tagged.

No, Batman dodges bullets from more accurate marksman with better guns. Holden will not touch Batman without Batman's permission simply because he can regenerate, Bruce can dodge him every time. Holden can't "over stealth" Batman, if a sniper on a roof can't do it and if Batgirl Cass can't do it (she broke into a locked bank vault, closed it and stayed in there to surprise her target who opened it later), Holden can't do it cus he doesn't have the feats of stealth that put him on Bruce's level.

Also just for good measure, Wayne Tower has automated security, even if security isn't allowed, Bruce knows the place inside out and has secret passage ways while Holden doesn't know anything about that. OP says he watched him for a night and knows his secret ID, doesn't say Holden knows the ins and outs of Wayne Tower. If anything, Bruce simply ducks into a secure room, waits for Holden, slips past him before he can notice (ninja skills that Holden doesn't have), shuts the door, barricades it. He wins, or like I said, aim dodges Holden, finds cover, catches him off guard, knocks him out of a window. He wins .... Holden has no feats that suggest he can stop this from happening.

Nobody said it will be on Wayne Tower your judgement is biaised because you makes false statements about the fighting scenario.
And worse you think that Batman can't be touch by bullets.
1) Even he is fast to rect to them he moves slower than a bullet.
2) You pretend that the other shooters are better than Carver but he never missed in all the issues of Sleeper.

3) You can pretend whatever you want : Batman is human, if Carver choose properly the place of the fight he has no chance to stay alive.

And..Holden loses

@ancient_0f_days said:

@realitywarper said:

Nobody said it will be on Wayne Tower your judgement is biaised because you makes false statements about the fighting scenario.

@jacthripper said:

@ancient_0f_days: Should have specified, the first fight takes place in Wayne Tower. Batman has just walked out of a meeting.

And..Holden loses

Rules and Conditions

• NO PREP FOR BATMAN
• Holden has been assigned by TAO to kill Batman, he follows him for one night, observing him.

Round 1

Holden has discovered Batman's secret identity and attempts to kill him during office hours, Bruce has just left a meeting, he is wearing civilian clothes. Holden has his guns.

Round 2

Holden attempts to kill Batman after his night out, standard gear for both.

Please

Before trying to argue.
Try to learn to read. :)

@ancient_0f_days:

@ancient_0f_days said:

@realitywarper said:

Nobody said it will be on Wayne Tower your judgement is biaised because you makes false statements about the fighting scenario.

@jacthripper said:

@ancient_0f_days: Should have specified, the first fight takes place in Wayne Tower. Batman has just walked out of a meeting.

And..Holden loses

Rules and Conditions

• NO PREP FOR BATMAN
• Holden has been assigned by TAO to kill Batman, he follows him for one night, observing him.

Round 1

Holden has discovered Batman's secret identity and attempts to kill him during office hours, Bruce has just left a meeting, he is wearing civilian clothes. Holden has his guns.

Round 2

Holden attempts to kill Batman after his night out, standard gear for both.

Ok my bad for the first round :

It is even easier then :

He goes at the meeting after having charged his power.
Cordial handshake and Batman is dead.

@realitywarper: How is Holden going to the meeting if it's already over as per the OP? Why would Bruce shake his hand if Bruce knows everyone who goes in and out of that building? In fact, how is Holden getting past automated security? He's going to show up on the monitors as an intruder. Any office building has security like this and he is stepping into the head office building of an entire city run by one of the wealthiest people on DC Earth....and he's just going to casually walk up to this person and shake his hand? Is that really how you think that works?

@realitywarper: Sorry if you posted this earlier, but who is the toughest person that has been put down by the pain powers?

@realitywarper: Also, I did mention his contact lenses didn't I? What I didn't mention is that he has micro computers in them that are linked to the Batcave and can read heat signatures ...

He has these on almost all the time ... as well as an ear piece.

@thebourneposter: Does it matters ? He one-shots human beings. Batman is a human being.

@ancient_0f_days:Bruce wayne is a philantropist. He has no reason to refuse to meet and speak with a casual guy. And Holden has some social skills, he has meet high society people before and infiltrate places like this. Piece of cake.

@realitywarper: Yeah, it does. Batman has survived things that should kill human beings before. So can you answer the question?

A girl with superhuman strenght and durability.
Any question ?