Hokages vs Espada

@mudamudamuda: hmmm i don't care so have a good day, go see a movie with a girl :D

@fist_of_ragnarok: Oh well. Good day anyway.

Gotta give to the espada barragan as mvp.

There is no Baraggan, though lol

@mudamudamuda: lol I'm only kidding. but realistically i only see Hashirama doing damage, no one else really "maybe" Minato

@mudamudamuda: oh still gotta give it to the espada to much hax.

@fist_of_ragnarok: The other kages may not have fire power, but they can use Hiraishin to teleport the espada or teleport their ceros away (maybe even back at them for max damage) but I still think that Hashirama solos.

@mudamudamuda: Yeah but what about starks constant ceros ?

@fist_of_ragnarok: It may be a problem but Kages still have ways to deal with it for instance it can be :

Blocked by Rashumon gates.

Blocked by a Wood Golem :

Teleported back at him by Minato :

Or simply sealed inside a barrier :

@DragonEnton:

Dude hashirama used hokage shiki jijun jutsu kakuan nitten suishu to put kurama to sleep. Its not like he whooped kurama unconcious.

On topic: hashirama solos, minato oneshots (bijuu dama from kurama = 5mountain busters) espadas aint surviving that.

@mudamudamuda: Rashumon Gates Block in one direct line, what if they are coming from more than one direction ? Look at Starks cero metralleta, imagine if he's shooting from a

"high vantage point", The Hokages have no aerial support to reach him In addition Minato can block attacks, but how are they going to block cero's from every direction ?Be in mind Stark is just one person.

and this is just one espada that creates this one problem

@fist_of_ragnarok: What point is there in shooting in different directions if the kages are all in the same place ? If Stark wants to hit them he will have to aim at them, the shots that are directed at them will be blocked by any of the defensive means posted above, while the shots going in different directions shouldn't even mater since they won't hit them. Also Hashirama can shield everyone with his wood golem.

Flying away won't save Strak since hashirama can summon the Deity gates on top of him to seal and force him to fall down.

And just to be sure, the kages can close a barrier around them and let Hashirama's poison trees kill everyone.

1.Stark dodges with Sonido -- anyone can see Diety Gates coming, or one of the other Espada will warn him

We've seen Rashumon block in one position, for on coming attack, while stark shoots in any position he wants, this is only one attack, while others are making theirs, Wood Golem is good for defense, but how long can it last vs Cero Spams that could be even more powerful than TBB's

We don't know if a barrier can hold what 6-7 espada ? also flower world was said to make one "unconscious" i thought, well Haibel destroys them with Cascada or any manipulating water. Still Espada have the advantage, they can fly bro

@mudamudamuda: 1. Ahh so no character have ever dodged anything from sensing ?

1. Why wouldn't a barrier hold 6-7 espada ? really ? Descorer, they would open a portal like a gargantua between it, i mean i could see it were one but if kenny can do this to a weak barrier what would that shit do ?

2. The Bijuu Bomb shits on any attack on bleach ? based on what "scientific analysis" ? loool so because it destorys 5 mountains it's more powerful ? never seen any mountains in bleach get destoryed to measure but i've seen a few buildings go down, still based on that you don't know which is stronger ..Good one :D

3. LoooL if that were the case he could have just done that to Madara and it would have been a rap, i got Stark dodging it, like he dodged Kyrokaru when he surprised attacked him from behind.

4. All i have are what-if's ? is this not a what-if thread and battle ? link me to the manga where bleach and naruto exist together so i can comre more correct like you...Gotta Read that Manga lool

5. they render you unconscious, they never say anything about poison

@fist_of_ragnarok: "how long can it last vs Cero Spams that could be even more powerful than TBB's"

Cero spams have zero showings putting them even close to an average bijuu bomb. Heck, six tailed naruto's bijuu bomb has far more power than any Cero shown.

Based on what destroyed hills and mountains ? I disagree

Hahahahahaha

@fist_of_ragnarok: yea I'm pretty sure your problem is thinking ceros are anywhere tbb. Madara simply drawing his sword as Susanoo severed multiple full scale mountains, and the wood golem could catch it. There is no cero even remotely close to real mountain level. Lanza is, but that isn't a cero and it's still far weaker than a TBB. The power is measured by the amount of material destroyed. TBBs destroy thousands of times more material than a cero with even their most basic showings.

Your opinion doesn't matter, whether you agree or not. The scans have proved it already...Cero is nowhere near as powerful as a Susanoo slash OR a TBB, both of which Hashirama can easilly block. Hell, the 4th can outright warp their attacks back at them, as can the second. Pretty much everything youve been saying is off. Half the kages arn't useless, the Bleach characters are not faster or stronger, and a basic cero usually hovers around building level, building+ at best. There is a massive difference between building/rock pillar busting and mountain/multimountain busting.

This has all been done a million times already. You are welcome to post scans and try to prove everyone else wrong, but you wont make a difference. There is no scan that will back your position.

PS. Did you just say cero could be stronger than a 5x mountain buster using....buildings as your proof? Do you have any idea how wrong that is? Or how many buildings can fit in an actual mountain? Plus, they're hollow. Like....wow. Dude. Go learn something, then come back. Please.

@thelocust619: @mudamudamuda: I... am so sorry I'm on the same side of the argument as that guy... That being said... *ahem* Gonna admit I definitely underestimated the first in my first post. That being said, I'm still gonna be rooting for the espada for two main reasons.

1. Outnumbering

2. Hax abilities

Szayel if he can actually get it to work, though arguably he could useit on his teammates?.. doesn't seem to cause any ill affects to who he uses it on, the making clones at least. The voo doo thing though is completely different. If he an land that on one of the hokage GG for that one... which realistically could be the third. Gomen Sarutobi sensei. The controling eye guy too would be a huge problem. Stark's wolves are a huge answer to any clones the kage make up and jar head, again if he can get one of the hokage, would pretty much win it in my opinion. Other than that...Nnitora is super durable, Uluquiorra has the second release and regeneration. With Grimmjow's speed my knee jerk reaction almost is to say Halibel is the weak link... but I guess she's stronger than him >.> She's a little bit of an oddball.

For the kage though, I will say that Minato has pretty much the highest DC int he whole battle. Any Espada hit by it, at least directly... yeah, that's it. I'd argue the eye guy could control it... maybe. And Hashirama could take out any Espada with a good hit. Second and thrd are... a little less useful. Though with the second's teleportation I think the third then is the weak link for them. After realizing my mistake with Hashirama I'm revising myprediction to 6or7/10 in the Espada's favor

Side note... in my first post where Imentioned Stark giving everything back... I miiiiiiiiight have gotten him mixed up with Ukitake. My bad.

Espada win off hax leading to a superior consistency in DC. Ulquiorra cero spams in second release(and flight) w/ Grimmjow and Starrk (in release). Starrk could possibly solo because of the speed advantage and the fact that his release is made to spam ceros (There's a scan saying that he can spam 1000 ceros in 1 second). The other Espada can spam too so yeah.. >_>

Should really lower the number of Espada to match the Kage.

Edit* I forgot the kicker, Starrk's ceros are larger in his released state.

@loumast: Thank you i think the espada take em' home, most people are just gathering ideas of non-sense just to make the Hokages seem suitable to battle loool you know what that is called right ?

@loumast: Between these kages, they have a pretty solid team going on. They control speed via two teleporters, the entire environment via hashirama, defense via hashirama and the 3rd with their barriers, and their offense is ridiculous considering the size of Kurama's BBs.

One blockade to buy time for a full power TBB as Hashirama warps the entire enviroment, flushing them all out if they try for cover....and that blast is going to murder a good number of them. It's hard to say who gets hit, but from there we have two people who can teleport themselves or their allies in for killing blows, and if they feel outnumbered they can summon the wood dragon, wood ogre, thousand hands, monkey king enma, the second's suicide clones (explosive tag combo), wood clones... and as a last resort they can all pack into kurama, who can take a beating. If they'd all get solo'd by Aizen via raw strength, as Gin suggested, the kages should be able to do the same with their level of offense. Their level of teamwork also far exceeds the espada, where only Ulq and Yammy worked together. And still fought one at a time. And hate each other. Their greatest strength, though, is they have more than one person who can do any one thing (teleporting, barriers, killing blows) so they can honestly afford to lose a guy throughout the battle. Probably the 3rd, I agree there. Although he can just be revived by the second, who invented edo tensei.

The Espada initially have numbers, but their powers are almost random given Kubo's writing style, and they prefer to work alone even when fighting in the same area. Teamwork isnt really even an option. Anyone who poses an immediate threat, like Saz, can be dealt with as soon as they're identified via teleportation or a massive area attack.

@captivated-: Thank you, yet another firm believer, The Hokages stand no chance in hell, they might as well do this .......

or this .......

Nice thread. I gotta say the espada take it home though. This is mainly due to Ulquiorra. The guy is a beast. His Lanza del Ralámpago and Cero Oscuras both took out good portions of Las Noches (Lanza almost completely obliterated it.) Las Noches as a whole is about the size of three mountains. Also don't underestimate the Cero. Sure the average Cero isn't worth much but once you get to more powerful Cero's like Gran Ray Cero (which all the Espada can use. It's about the level of a non Segunda Etapa Cero Oscuraa) it can destroy miles of land. Another thing the Espada are much more durable than the Hokage as a whole. For instance Ulqiorra got thrown through a mountain, got his arm torn off, and got hit by a cero that dwarfed the Gran Ray Cero and then proceeded to get up and regenerate his arm like it was nothing!

@loumast said:

@thelocust619: @mudamudamuda: I... am so sorry I'm on the same side of the argument as that guy... That being said... *ahem* Gonna admit I definitely underestimated the first in my first post. That being said, I'm still gonna be rooting for the espada for two main reasons.

You don't have to be sorry. I always welcome a good debate as long as the other side can provide legit arguments and act mature. Which isn't that other guy was doing at all sadly.

Anyway, to add to what Thelocust619 said :

1. Outnumbering.

That isn't an advantage when we all 4 members of team kages can perform shadow/wood clone jutsus. This means that they can avoid risks by having their clones fulfill the most dangerous tasks or suicide attacks. They wouldn't care, they are clones and any lack of chakra can be recovered thanks to Minato's Kyuube. If anything, the Espadas are the outnumbered ones.

2. Hax abilities

Szayel if he can actually get it to work, though arguably he could useit on his teammates?.. doesn't seem to cause any ill affects to who he uses it on, the making clones at least. The voo doo thing though is completely different. If he an land that on one of the hokage GG for that one... which realistically could be the third. Gomen Sarutobi sensei.

Szayel's abilities require direct physical contact with either him or the liquid-thing he sprouts. Their is no way he is going to land either on the kages when either Hashirama or Minato can protect their team and themselves. Hashirama with his wood summoning and Minato with his chakra cloak. The ability wouldn't work on chakra cloak since it's just chakra not Minato himself who got tagged.

The controling eye guy too would be a huge problem.

No, not really. His ability doesn't work on a whole individual just on one very small area (roughly one limb) at a time and he can only control as many things as he has eyes. Remember What Byakuya told him ?

In this case it will be Hashirama who will tell him "Just Which of these thousands of hands do you intend to take control of ?"

Even though realistically speaking, he shouldn't even be able to control a few fingers given their size.

Stark's wolves are a huge answer to any clones the kage make up and jar head, again if he can get one of the hokage, would pretty much win it in my opinion. Other than that...

Not when the 2nd and 4th kages can teleport things while Minato could use chakra hand to smash any target.

Nnitora is super durable, Uluquiorra has the second release and regeneration. With Grimmjow's speed my knee jerk reaction almost is to say Halibel is the weak link... but I guess she's stronger than him >.> She's a little bit of an oddball.

Ulquiorra will actually be the Espadas worst nightmare. Since two people on team kages can teleport his Lanzas back at his own team for a sure One shot. And it doesn't help their case that one of these two kages has half the Kyuube sealed inside of him... remember what Naruto could do with just a small portion of Kyuube's chakra ?

Yeah the Espadas are beyond screwed. Not a single blind spot will be left.

For the kage though, I will say that Minato has pretty much the highest DC int he whole battle. Any Espada hit by it, at least directly... yeah, that's it. I'd argue the eye guy could control it... maybe. And Hashirama could take out any Espada with a good hit.

No, not even close actually. Hashirama has by far (and I mean REALLY far) the best destructive power in team kages thanks to his true thousand hands.

Check how small the mountains are compared to the explosions from his barrage of fists :

And it doesn't help the Espadas that speed was equalized since the true thousand hands could literally flatten them all at the start of the battle thanks to it's massive reach.

Second and thrd are... a little less useful. Though with the second's teleportation I think the third then is the weak link for them. After realizing my mistake with Hashirama I'm revising myprediction to 6or7/10 in the Espada's favor

Side note... in my first post where Imentioned Stark giving everything back... I miiiiiiiiight have gotten him mixed up with Ukitake. My bad.

Yeah, to be frank, I still see Hashirama soloing based on feats.

@mudamudamuda: Those mountains are really small

@juzacloud: Yeah, they aren't very large. Maybe 1000-1500m roughly. But that's more than enough reach.

The kages stomp cero aint doing sh*t.

@thelocust619:

The Kage may control speed, but the Espada control the air. Some more than others, but all of them to some degree. And, after looking into both teams, an average bijuu bomb looks to be about comprable to Uluqiorra's Lanza. Muda also made an amazing point about Hasirama's DC, which I'd have to agree is the highest of all combatants.

As for the bijuu bomb I'd still argue Zomari could take control of it. On that note he could even take control of any clones sent out, just saying. It was stated at least he could take control of a person by controling their head, and showed he could control inanimate objects with Byakuya's blades. And the fact he literally only has to look at someone makes the ability extremely broken. he could literally "feed" the enemies to Aaroniero or Szayel. The wood creations on the other hand would be a very effective, though I'd imagine hard to hit with with the general speed of the fighters. Speed equalized obviously not meaning they are all slow, but no speed blitzing as the OP said. I'd say even that Sonido is fairly equivalant to super speed movement most Naruto ninja show.

As for killing blows, I really do think for all espada it will take an extremely powerful hit, which only two can deliver casually, to take out an espada. Particularly Nnitora.

With Aizen being able to take out all espada with sheer power, there's no super accurate way of gauging base Aizen's strength, though it did seem Yamamoto could put him down, but the old man could also create temperatures that were sun level so... yeah.

Teamwork, definitely a huge plus for the kage, makes up for the outnumbering in a huge way. Makes the second a million times more useful than he might otherwise be.

Though the kage have multiple people to answer needs, the Espada do too in many regards. Defense for one, for all of them which yeah, kinda cheap XD, strategists, and I guess in general jut physical attributes. Save the third or fourth going sage mode The espada are pretty high above the kage in most normal aspects such as strength, endurance and all that. (Nearly said speed XD)

Also... no edo tensei~~ lol

Kinda a personal opinion here but working alone could be to their benefit, not grouping up to be taken out by a single bijuu bomb Could play into the strategists of the group as well. And we can't forget both sides have basic knowlege of abilities... admittedly the kage's prep gives them a giant advantage, but with Szayel, Uluquiorra, Harribel, Stark and (according to the wiki which I find a little farfetched) Aaroniero on the job it should be able to be overcome.

@mudamudamuda:

Again... the wolves are a valid answer to most if not all clones, particularly because they re form and can be generated all but effortlessly by Stark. And that one that exploded love looked pretty close to a bijuu bomb, or at least something close to it.

If Szaye used the cloning thing on his companions though, that could give a bit of trouble. And I'll readily admit that he very very likely is not going to get off that voo doo attack. Still seemed pertinant to bring up. That being said... It does make me wonder how well getting a clone would be for him >.> Probably not very well XD but food for thought.

Zommari's ability can work on a whole individual, as long as he hits their head. Pretty sure it wouldn't be the same for saya wood creation, but if he gets any of the kage or Enma like that it's it. And he could even "feed" them to Aaroniero or Szayelaporro, though the lack of teamwork might make this a little unlikely. Not saying it's an auto hit either, since kage have prep and knowledge, but the fact he only has to look at something makes it the tinniest bit broken.

I'd give you Uluquiorra being a detriment to his team, but I don't think he'll be lobbing those Lanzas unless he sees an opening he'll probably make. Not saying it always will, but probably won't be a deciding factor. Something I wanted to mention, but it seems like the lanzas have a similar DC as the bijuu bombs. Thoughts?

And watch it with the no blind spots >.> some of the Espada are just as perceptive as the Kage and there are more of them.

Totally got me on Hashirama being the one with the highest destructive power though... admitting that XD

Reallyt hough I think since the Espada have flight on their side as well they have a pretty huge advantage themselves. Not nough for any kind of easy win, but enough that the size and scope of a lot of the attacks won't be as devistating.

Something else to bring up is that all espada have gran rey cero, wo should they all fire them at once (yeah yeah... I'm bringing up cero spam, but it's actually a pretty good strategy) that could bea pretty devistating attack that the hokage might just only survive due to teleportation. And of course thre's Uluquiorra's Cero Oscuras which I'd say is just about as powerful as that one explosion from Stark's wolf.

What really, in my opinion, wins ths for the kage is the prep they have, but I still thing the brains of the Espada could overcome this most of the time.

@loumast said:

@mudamudamuda:

Again... the wolves are a valid answer to most if not all clones, particularly because they re form and can be generated all but effortlessly by Stark. And that one that exploded love looked pretty close to a bijuu bomb, or at least something close to it.

Unfortunately they aren't. Stark fragments his own soul to create these wolves and he can only summon around 10 of them :

Gallery

That's nowhere near enough to take on the thousand clones Minato could make using Kyuube's chakra.Then again, a thousand clones won't be needed, just one is enough. Minato's clone could simply use his chakra arms to grab them and teleport elsewhere, preferably right next to the espada.

And even assuming that doesn't happen, the wolves power isn't enough to take on the kages. Why ? Simply because while the wolfs can reform from the damage you inflect on them. Once they explode they stop regenerating. So the kages only need to block the blasts once and they will be good to go. Needless to say that it will be a piece of cake since Hashirama can tank Kurama's TBB while Minato's Kurama can tank the Juube's TBB.

If Szaye used the cloning thing on his companions though, that could give a bit of trouble. And I'll readily admit that he very very likely is not going to get off that voo doo attack. Still seemed pertinant to bring up. That being said... It does make me wonder how well getting a clone would be for him >.> Probably not very well XD but food for thought.

I wonder about the clones myself. He probably can't use his own ability on himself since the liquid is constantly on contact with his body ad yet it doesn't take effect. Cloning his team mates could be a valid strategy, although I seriously doubt any of the espada would be ok with it and he himself would most likely not even rely on it due to CIS. Though all in all that still won't save them from getting flattened by Hashirama.

Zommari's ability can work on a whole individual, as long as he hits their head. Pretty sure it wouldn't be the same for saya wood creation, but if he gets any of the kage or Enma like that it's it. And he could even "feed" them to Aaroniero or Szayelaporro, though the lack of teamwork might make this a little unlikely. Not saying it's an auto hit either, since kage have prep and knowledge, but the fact he only has to look at something makes it the tinniest bit broken.

He couldn't even use it properly on Byakuya then. Which just makes it pretty bad overall. Still he has no way of differentiating between the kages and their clones and Hashirama could simply use his bringer of darkness to blind him. So I think that's out as well.

I'd give you Uluquiorra being a detriment to his team, but I don't think he'll be lobbing those Lanzas unless he sees an opening he'll probably make. Not saying it always will, but probably won't be a deciding factor. Something I wanted to mention, but it seems like the lanzas have a similar DC as the bijuu bombs. Thoughts?

The kages could always use feints (Transformation + clones) to fool Ulqiorra into thinking that they have their guard down, then it's Minato's job to warp the blast.

Also, Lanzas are pretty big that's for sure. However I wouldn't know about it's actually DC since it hasn't really been used to bust much. Still I don't think they are on par with a TBB or at least not Kurama's simply because I don't see lanza being stronger than Aizen's fragor which isn't equal to 5+ mountain buster.

And watch it with the no blind spots >.> some of the Espada are just as perceptive as the Kage and there are more of them.

Not with Minato and Hashirama's clones lol

Totally got me on Hashirama being the one with the highest destructive power though... admitting that XD

Glad to hear that :D

Reallyt hough I think since the Espada have flight on their side as well they have a pretty huge advantage themselves. Not nough for any kind of easy win, but enough that the size and scope of a lot of the attacks won't be as devistating.

Flight could be an advantage that's for sure. However as previously mentioned Hashirama can use his Deity gates to seal the espada and force them down. Not only that if the espada try to get away from the kages, they will give them the opportunity to use a barrier to trap them.

Something else to bring up is that all espada have gran rey cero, wo should they all fire them at once (yeah yeah... I'm bringing up cero spam, but it's actually a pretty good strategy) that could bea pretty devistating attack that the hokage might just only survive due to teleportation. And of course thre's Uluquiorra's Cero Oscuras which I'd say is just about as powerful as that one explosion from Stark's wolf.

Cero spam is a pretty terrible strategy imo. Not only because no Cero has feats putting it at TBB level when at least two people in team kages can tank them easily. But also because the Cero could be teleported back at them... which would pretty much wreck the team.

What really, in my opinion, wins ths for the kage is the prep they have, but I still thing the brains of the Espada could overcome this most of the time.

Honestly speaking, I still see the Kage taking this. Mainly because they have no answer to Hashirama's summons, whether offensively or defensively. Factoring in Minato's teleportation and Kyuube makes the out come clear IMO.

But I respect your opinion. So if you want to we can just agree to disagree.

@mudamudamuda: Oh my god I deleted my post... *sigh* back to the typing then...

The Hokages make a Barrier. While in the Barrier Hashirama slaps a God Gate onto every one of the Espada then Minato nukes everybody that's in the Barrier with a TBB. Hashirama solos.

I still don't understand what the Hokage do against flight...

Throw hiraishin kunai really really far?

Also, I kind of resent the notion that the Espada's cero won't do anything... More likely the constant barrage eventually wears down on the Hokage's chakra reserves... Even Kage have to sleep, right? (Sans Hashirama who I guess could just never sleep or get tired via senjutsu.) I would argue that Ulquiorra's Lanza Del Relampago is about as powerful as any Bijuudama. Though I guess that's a hard to defend notion as we only get very abstract viewings of its destructive potential.

I mean, it's not like the Espada have to eat to survive or anything... they have much longer life spans...

What's stopping them from just... you know... flying a couple miles up and waiting the Hokages out?

haibel could be a major help for team espada and save rhem if she does not utlize her skills none of them are getting past Hash

@mudamudamuda: Alright, first

Way more than 10 and Stark can keep creating them until he runs out of... well, soul. And that limit is probably a lot considering he's the primera.

The teleporting an exploding wolf is pretty ingeneous, but if it's not a clone (I did say if) that's some serious damage for Minato.Otherwise, it's the end of that clone (not a big deal) and it probably won't hit more than one espada. Probably won't be too grouped up. As for Hashirama tanking everything it would hinder his ability to really attack. Not entirely what with sage mode and clones, but enough that he won't be winning it for the kage. When did Kurama tank the Juubie's bomb though?

Actually, though I agree the Espada may not like it, I kinda think Sxayel would pretty readily use the gloop on his teammates. Omething like "I'll turn you all into my underlings" kinda mindset ot even "look how much better I can make you look" XD That ebing said the more strategic espada may see the act as helpful if not necessary. Szayel is definitely one of the more squishy though...Agree the clonning won't work on himself.

With Zommari it more seemed like he was toying with Byakuya... y'know... before there were a bajllion blades slicing his ass. So taking it seriously he'd be more inclined (I imagine) to take the head of whatever he can. This may be something to agree to disagree on since CIS and PIS can be hard to agree on. Still, taking over a kage's limb would be more than a little effective. The darkness too would be a huge key to disabling Zommari's ability, but with other senses still working it wouldn't be a complete stop to any of them.

My point with Uluquiorra is that I really think he'd keep in mind the possible feints and whatnot being one of the more inteligent Espada there are.

Also this doesn't look like something that busts five mountains? And here's a better shot of the crater left behind. The black attack of course is not Aizen's.

Oddly the mountains seem to be the same size of those in the Naruto scans you have. With that though... Lanza may not be as powerful as a bijuu bomb, but I still argue it's close enough to cancel one out. The explosion in hueco mundo was kinda ginormous. And then, if he uses it as a sword, he's cutting through pretty much anything. The only thing that may stand up to it are Hasirama's defenses, but with the Lanza being condensed it still may work.

How are clones equal to no blind spots? Less for sure, but they are still only human eyes. Admittedly sage mode for Hashirama and Minato help, but still. Aarenierro even has the mind link ability for the Espada too.

I really don't see the Deity gates hitting the espada. It would take some serious distracting I don't think either side would allow for the other. As for a barrier that could hinder more than help as in the manga/anime they could only get like 3-5 clones up after making the barrier, right?

...Got me on the negative side of Cero spam... though Stark's at least would only be used if he saw an opening. Being another one of the strategists.

Gonna be the tinniest bit nitpicky here, but are those really summons? They seem more wood constructs... really awesome wood constructs. And anyway, they aren't particularly manuverable, though they are powerful. I think the espada could avoid most hits from the wood things save maybe the 1000 punch thing. That would be difficult for some. The teleportation really helps more than the Kyuubi in general if ou ask me, being able to redirect anything. They shoudl be able to get out of the way of a simple firing of a bijuu bomb. Though if it's point blank, would the kage be able to survive? I guess if they're already hidden in a defensive thing already... meh *shrugs*

Don't think we're at the point to agree to disagree yet. There are still points on both sides we brought up to be debated. You made me change my opiniion on a few things and I can only hope for the ame on you XD (seemed to get you at least a little on that flying bit hehe)

A fw extra points I want to bring up though are, once again, Zommari using his ability to not only manipulate attacks, but also when one of the porters (or their clones) moves in to do so or throws one of the seals, he makes the person or object get flung away. Another is, with knowlege, the espada could find any thunder god seals, or wait for something to be ported to see where they are and destroy or manipulate them as they like. Stark could even set out a few low power woves to find/destroy them as they are teleported.

@abyssdarkfire: What's halibel gonna do? Short of one of the kage using water style, she seems almost like the weak link if you just look at her showings. She's a strategist at least, so there's that XD

@loumast said:

@mudamudamuda: Alright, first http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/82/828d7abb385986dc4722e2c278643ebf11041142d3aff6b4b20a8beb.jpg

Way more than 10

Interesting. 10~ clones it is then :p

and Stark can keep creating them until he runs out of... well, soul.

Or gets one-shotted/Sealed/BFR'd but mostly one shotted. :)

The teleporting an exploding wolf is pretty ingeneous, but if it's not a clone (I did say if) that's some serious damage for Minato.

Well, I don't think so actually. Seeing how naruto in that chakra cloak deflected 5 mountain busters :

And tanked the Juube chakra blast while protecting thousands of ninjas only taking minor damage:

Gallery

Otherwise, it's the end of that clone (not a big deal) and it probably won't hit more than one espada. Probably won't be too grouped up.

Yeah probably so. But it will be enough to make them rethink the wolves strategy IMO and that's still an advantage for the kages.

As for Hashirama tanking everything it would hinder his ability to really attack. Not entirely what with sage mode and clones, but enough that he won't be winning it for the kage.

I don't think so actually. Hashirama is quite versatile, he was facing both Juubito and Madara at the same time thanks to his clones.

When did Kurama tank the Juubie's bomb though?

Here he took the concentrated beam version :

Which can do this in case you forgot :

Actually, though I agree the Espada may not like it, I kinda think Sxayel would pretty readily use the gloop on his teammates. Omething like "I'll turn you all into my underlings" kinda mindset ot even "look how much better I can make you look" XD That ebing said the more strategic espada may see the act as helpful if not necessary. Szayel is definitely one of the more squishy though...Agree the clonning won't work on himself.

Haha, but that'd ruin their team work undoubtedly (Espadas are a bunch of tsundere's lol). Plus the first time he used clones he dispelled them himself since it was taking too long so CIS is also a factor.

With Zommari it more seemed like he was toying with Byakuya... y'know... before there were a bajllion blades slicing his ass. So taking it seriously he'd be more inclined (I imagine) to take the head of whatever he can. This may be something to agree to disagree on since CIS and PIS can be hard to agree on.

Yeah I guess so.

Still, taking over a kage's limb would be more than a little effective.

That'd depend on the kage honestly. Besides Zom seems really slow to be frank so I doubt the kages wouldn't manage to dispose of him.

The darkness too would be a huge key to disabling Zommari's ability, but with other senses still working it wouldn't be a complete stop to any of them.

Sure enough it won't. But in Zom's case he'd be put in checkmate since his ability requires seeing the target.

My point with Uluquiorra is that I really think he'd keep in mind the possible feints and whatnot being one of the more inteligent Espada there are.

Of course if he knew about them. But in this case he doesn't.

Also this

http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/a0/a0b460fffc64d8eb4d663dea06f2e201f0f5001ab09d75a6233eb9ca.png

doesn't look like something that busts five mountains? Here's a better shot of the crater left behind. The black attack of course is not Aizen's.

http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/e5/e5abe37feefa2f67c916e42ac8247b08c1a6f98a68654969f290769f.png

Oddly the mountains seem to be the same size of those in the Naruto scans you have. With that though... Lanza may not be as powerful as a bijuu bomb, but I still argue it's close enough to cancel one out. The explosion in hueco mundo was kinda ginormous. And then, if he uses it as a sword, he's cutting through pretty much anything. The only thing that may stand up to it are Hasirama's defenses, but with the Lanza being condensed it still may work.

I kinda disagree actually. This doesn't seem mountain sized in my opinion :

Naruto's case is a bit different since we have a proper scaling point : The forest destroyed by hashibe :

You can compare the size here (the one marked in purple is the forest) :

Just keep in mind how big the 8tails is.

How are clones equal to no blind spots? Less for sure, but they are still only human eyes. Admittedly sage mode for Hashirama and Minato help, but still. Aarenierro even has the mind link ability for the Espada too.

It's not really about their literal field of vision but more about having clones covering possible flaws in their defense and offense.

I really don't see the Deity gates hitting the espada. It would take some serious distracting I don't think either side would allow for the other.

Well the Gates tagged both Madara :

As well as Juubito :

So why not ?

As for a barrier that could hinder more than help as in the manga/anime they could only get like 3-5 clones up after making the barrier, right?

Indeed, but once the barrier is up it's game over. TBB, poison etc

...Got me on the negative side of Cero spam... though Stark's at least would only be used if he saw an opening. Being another one of the strategists.

Maybe so. But the clones should make up for that.

Gonna be the tinniest bit nitpicky here, but are those really summons? They seem more wood constructs... really awesome wood constructs.

Actually, you are right... even though the fans refer to them as summons I don't remember Hashirama actually using the word "summoning" hmmm

And anyway, they aren't particularly maneuverable, though they are powerful. I think the espada could avoid most hits from the wood things save maybe the 1000 punch thing. That would be difficult for some. The teleportation really helps more than the Kyuubi in general if ou ask me, being able to redirect anything. They shoudl be able to get out of the way of a simple firing of a bijuu bomb. Though if it's point blank, would the kage be able to survive? I guess if they're already hidden in a defensive thing already... meh *shrugs*

Well Hashirama did so why not ?

Don't think we're at the point to agree to disagree yet. There are still points on both sides we brought up to be debated. You made me change my opiniion on a few things and I can only hope for the ame on you XD (seemed to get you at least a little on that flying bit hehe)

Indeed. I'm glad to hear that and I can say the same for you. It's just that I'm pretty lazy lol

A fw extra points I want to bring up though are, once again, Zommari using his ability to not only manipulate attacks, but also when one of the porters (or their clones) moves in to do so or throws one of the seals, he makes the person or object get flung away.

But he will be blinded.

Another is, with knowlege, the espada could find any thunder god seals, or wait for something to be ported to see where they are and destroy or manipulate them as they like.

The seals can never be removed as Minato claims (though you shouldn't take that literally) since they are burned in with chakra.

Stark could even set out a few low power woves to find/destroy them as they are teleported.

Juubito already tried that. It didn't go too well lol

Good points.

@mudamudamuda:

If he's teleporting them, I was assuming geting up close and personal eith them then warping them but I suppose throwing a kunai with the mark would work as well.

They're... tsundres?... And I can't argue the CIS either. Admittedly though, he was pretty spot on with his ability asssessment with how easy he should be able to take out Renji and uryuu. It was Mayuri that through a wrnch into his plans. Also I believe he mentioned being able to counter any attack he sees once. Probably not 100% true, but I'd imagine true enough that seeing an attack and not dying from it

Though speed is equalized, Zom mentioned he had the fastest sonido, even able to make afterimages. So... not that slow. Of course speed is equalized as well, so there's that.

What do you mean in this cae he doesn't?

That bleach picture seems a little... unrelated? What was cut wasn't really a mountain. Arounfd the crater in my own scans were the same kinda rises in the ground that looked like the mountains in yours. In both cases they aren't very large.

And yeah, just... it isn't "0 blind spots"

As for the gates... iirc, I believe with Madara he gave precisely 0 sh*ts and wasn't that right after Obito became a jinchuriki? So kind of distracted. May be wrong on both counts and I would love to be shown where it was.

Fair point on the barrier, but as a secondary retort, would it be that likely that they would be able to get 9 overly agile individuals caught in one area.

He survived with the wood barrier thing. My point was that firing it would require not being in the barrier... unless it was a clone or something.

I know he'll be blinded, just another possibility of what could happen. Though... how much concentration does that darkness thing take to hold up. SHould probably reread/re watch the parts with it.

And dude... I'm pretty sure blowing up the kunai or blowing up the immediate area of ground the seal is on would get rid of the seal.

And speaking of blowing up the area, what I meant really was that stark uses his wolves to attack and they probably will be ported. He'd probably keep them pretty low level to not hurt any allies (in characeter he does seem to have some care for allies) and when they explode they could either take out the seal or just alert the espada to the area the seal is. No matter where else the fourth, or second, ports it too it will be showing where a seal is. I don't know how plausible this is in particular, but Stark may even be able to stop the wolves from exploding... but again dunno how possible that is.

Just to give you a bit more trouble, cause I'm a jerk like that, think the Espads could use the porting to their advantage? Basically predict a swap and use it. Probably won't know where it'll go, but maybe goad the porter to a more optimal position. Pretty much send a projectile to be ported away and another Espada grabs on for the ride.

@darkslumber: Because.... you know. 8 perfectly mobile fighters will just let the barrier be put up. Especially since they have basic knowledge. Sorry for the sarcasm, but just kinda a seriously lowballing thing there. Also... @mudamudamuda: I wonder if Zom would be able to manipulate a portion of the barrier with his powers. Or for that matter one of the wooden barriers that can withstand a bijuu bomb

@loumast said:

@mudamudamuda:

If he's teleporting them, I was assuming geting up close and personal eith them then warping them but I suppose throwing a kunai with the mark would work as well.

Or just use chakra arms ?

They're... tsundres?...

They aren't ?

And I can't argue the CIS either. Admittedly though, he was pretty spot on with his ability asssessment with how easy he should be able to take out Renji and uryuu. It was Mayuri that through a wrnch into his plans.

I don't think that matters when he is unable to tag his opponents with that ability.

Also I believe he mentioned being able to counter any attack he sees once. Probably not 100% true, but I'd imagine true enough that seeing an attack and not dying from it

Most likely a hyperbole. Besides I don't see him surviving bijuu bombs or 1000 hands even once lol

Though speed is equalized, Zom mentioned he had the fastest sonido, even able to make afterimages. So... not that slow. Of course speed is equalized as well, so there's that.

Did he really ? Thanks for correcting me then.

What do you mean in this cae he doesn't?

They only have basic knowledge. So they know the kages names, that they are ninjas and that they can use ninjutsus etc pretty basic stuff not their abilities in general

That bleach picture seems a little... unrelated? What was cut wasn't really a mountain. Arounfd the crater in my own scans were the same kinda rises in the ground that looked like the mountains in yours.

How is it unrelated ? That pic shows the size of the structures you are referring to as mountains, they clearly aren't mountain sized. And I'm not basing this on how they look similar.

In both cases they aren't very large.

For Bleach yes, but how aren't the mountains from Naruto large ?

And yeah, just... it isn't "0 blind spots"

But I said not to take it literally lol

As for the gates... iirc, I believe with Madara he gave precisely 0 sh*ts and wasn't that right after Obito became a jinchuriki? So kind of distracted. May be wrong on both counts and I would love to be shown where it was.

Madara was actually screwed if not for Bz controlling Obito's body to save him.

Yes it was right after the transformation but given his reaction and speed feats at that time how he immediately blitzed the kages (look at Naruto), it hardly matters.

Gallery

Fair point on the barrier, but as a secondary retort, would it be that likely that they would be able to get 9 overly agile individuals caught in one area.

Considering how the kages caught Madara and obito while Juubito caught the thousand ninjas of the alliance at the same time, I don't think that 9 people would be a problem. It's not like the Espada know that they are going to raise a barrier or anything. Plus does it even matter ? Even if they don't get everyone what's the problem ? Those trapped will get killed inside by Hashirama those who don't will be killed by Minato's clones.

He survived with the wood barrier thing. My point was that firing it would require not being in the barrier... unless it was a clone or something.

My point is that Hashirama instantly used the wood golem to tank the point blank explosion from the Kyuube, so clearly it doesn't matter whether a TBB gets fired point blank.

I know he'll be blinded, just another possibility of what could happen. Though... how much concentration does that darkness thing take to hold up. SHould probably reread/re watch the parts with it.

Doesn't seem to take any concentration.

And dude... I'm pretty sure blowing up the kunai or blowing up the immediate area of ground the seal is on would get rid of the seal.

As illogical as this may sound it probably wouldn't lol

Tobirama placed his seal on Obito's right side when he got blitzed :

However Obito's right side got disintegrated by the orb explosion :

And yet Tobirama could still use the seal lol

Kishimoto's logic.

And speaking of blowing up the area, what I meant really was that stark uses his wolves to attack and they probably will be ported. He'd probably keep them pretty low level to not hurt any allies (in characeter he does seem to have some care for allies) and when they explode they could either take out the seal or just alert the espada to the area the seal is. No matter where else the fourth, or second, ports it too it will be showing where a seal is. I don't know how plausible this is in particular, but Stark may even be able to stop the wolves from exploding... but again dunno how possible that is.

I don't think that Stark can control the power of his blast. But even if he could there is nothing that stops Minato from placing the seal on his own clones or Sarutobi using Shuriken Kagebunshin on Minato's shuriken's.

Just to give you a bit more trouble, cause I'm a jerk like that, think the Espads could use the porting to their advantage? Basically predict a swap and use it. Probably won't know where it'll go, but maybe goad the porter to a more optimal position. Pretty much send a projectile to be ported away and another Espada grabs on for the ride.

How exactly ? And what's to stop the porter from BFR'ing themselves and the illegal passenger espada that got close to them (as long a they are a clone)? lol

I don't think so honestly.I don't remember him using his powers on a barrier or something like that before. Still even if he could, the espada would still have no answer to Hashirama's thousand hands. So they can spam wolves or ceros or hax for as long as they want by they will only be prolonging the inevitable IMO.

Hokage

@boringperson: Nothing is, these guys know that Hasharin can't block all those Cero's stark can shoot :D In addition Hashirama is a human, Arrancar don't get tired or fatigued , it's a battle of waiting, but that's illogical in debates loool that's why i don't say much, too much fanboying and no realism, i could see if it was 4vs4, but 4 on 7 ? is rape for the Hokages IMO Cero Spam FTW, but watch people tell you it's illogical, Hashirama is the only key in this battle, and even he is only human and has his limits