#1 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

Phil Urich

VS

Eddie Brock

Rules

  • Morals are on
  • Random encounter
  • Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation
  • Standard gear

Location

  • Begin visible
  • Begin 200 feat apart (Phil starts in the air venom on the ground)
  • Fight takes place here:

Who wins and why?

#2 Posted by Strider92 (16130 posts) - - Show Bio

I really really want to say Eddie but despite Brock's admirable durability to sonics his best feats were always with motivation (hatred for Spider-man, hatred for Carnage etc..). Although Brock won't go down easy I think Phil will win. The guy is packing anti-symbiote equipment out the wazoo.

#3 Posted by 18hunt (2891 posts) - - Show Bio

Carnage

#4 Posted by 18hunt (2891 posts) - - Show Bio

I meant venom

#5 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

Aside from the Sonic Scream....Phil doesn't really have a whole lot else going for him. All Eddie needs is to land one solid shot and it's night night time.

As for Motivation....Brock really hates people that kill innocents.

#6 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

Aside from the Sonic Scream....Phil doesn't really have a whole lot else going for him. All Eddie needs is to land one solid shot and it's night night time.

As for Motivation....Brock really hates people that kill innocents.

He has the flame sword as well which might not be an instant win due to brocks pain tolerance, can still do damage and Phil is actually quite durable.

Not saying he wins.

#7 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Phil couldn't beat Flash and Eddie is FAR better than Flash with the Venom symbiote.

#8 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby said:

Aside from the Sonic Scream....Phil doesn't really have a whole lot else going for him. All Eddie needs is to land one solid shot and it's night night time.

As for Motivation....Brock really hates people that kill innocents.

He has the flame sword as well which might not be an instant win due to brocks pain tolerance, can still do damage and Phil is actually quite durable.

Not saying he wins.

Bad scans to show...sure it shows Durability...but it also shows him losing a fight to Randy Robertson who has absolutely no experience with Spider-Powers. Enter Venom...someone who has a lot of experience using those same Spider-Powers.

#9 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Phil couldn't beat Flash and Eddie is FAR better than Flash with the Venom symbiote.

I really really disagree with that. Phil seemed to be toying with flash and he had him incapacitated in 2 pages without the scream. Fly had to spit acid for flash to escape.

Had his flame sword at venoms neck but decides to offer him a job, Flash pretends to except.
Fly saves venom.
Flash broke several bones.
Phil asks Fly where kingpings money is meaning he likely needed fly alive in order to figure out where the money was.
Flash surprises Phil.

If Phil wanted to beat Flash I think he could have stomped. Without the scream.

#10 Edited by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby said:

Aside from the Sonic Scream....Phil doesn't really have a whole lot else going for him. All Eddie needs is to land one solid shot and it's night night time.

As for Motivation....Brock really hates people that kill innocents.

He has the flame sword as well which might not be an instant win due to brocks pain tolerance, can still do damage and Phil is actually quite durable.

Not saying he wins.

Bad scans to show...sure it shows Durability...but it also shows him losing a fight to Randy Robertson who has absolutely no experience with Spider-Powers. Enter Venom...someone who has a lot of experience using those same Spider-Powers.

He lost on purpose. Look at the last 2 scans...He was listening in on the conversation at the end. And Rand was developing plot powers and judging by the description narration hints he is more powerful then spider-man hence Phil says "I have been hit by spider-man! Rand is way stronger!"

#11 Posted by cameron83 (6676 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Congratulations....

I am now a big fan of Phil Urich,AND I am convinced that he can defeat venom (eddie).

Not saying he will,just saying that it's more possible

#12 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 Consider my statement retracted regarding Flash. I clearly misrembered that issue badly. That said, Brock's durability to sonics is greater than Flash's (Brock has tanked sonic weaponry specifically designed by Reed Richards to take the symbiote down, for example) and Flash was severely hampered by some bats during the Kraven fight. Phil's destruction of Flash, which I clearly forgot about (only remembering the scene where he escapes the sonics) is consistent with Taskmaster's fight with Flash, too. Eddie on the other hand frequently used abilities like invisibility and sneak attacks with the tendrils that Flash tends to ignore, as well as consistently proving at least as fast as Spider-Man. Excluding the initial meeting in Horizon where Peter was overpowered by Phil's scream, Phil has never had the advantage on Peter that I can recall, whereas Eddie wrecked Peter routinely. Phil has the means to hurt Eddie, but I don't believe he has the physical prowess or skills to do so.

#13 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby said:

Aside from the Sonic Scream....Phil doesn't really have a whole lot else going for him. All Eddie needs is to land one solid shot and it's night night time.

As for Motivation....Brock really hates people that kill innocents.

He has the flame sword as well which might not be an instant win due to brocks pain tolerance, can still do damage and Phil is actually quite durable.

Not saying he wins.

Bad scans to show...sure it shows Durability...but it also shows him losing a fight to Randy Robertson who has absolutely no experience with Spider-Powers. Enter Venom...someone who has a lot of experience using those same Spider-Powers.

He lost on purpose. Look at the last 2 scans...He was listening in on the conversation at the end. And Rand was developing plot powers and judging by the description narration hints he is more powerful then spider-man hence Phil says "I have been hit by spider-man! Rand is way stronger!"

He didn't lose on purpose. He got Smashed by a taxi cab and listened in when Randy dumped Norah.

Also, Phil saying "he's stronger than Spider-Man" doesn't mean anything. Peter typically holds back when he hits people. Randy wasn't holding back.

#14 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

He didn't lose on purpose. He got Smashed by a taxi cab and listened in when Randy dumped Norah.

He was still clearly capable of fighting. And he had his Flame sword at Rands neck as well but he just stood there in the 8 and 9th scan. He could have beheaded Rand if he wanted to... I assumed he just decided not to though I don't know if it was just for plots sake or if it was just Phil faking but he clearly could have won.

Also, Phil saying "he's stronger than Spider-Man" doesn't mean anything. Peter typically holds back when he hits people. Randy wasn't holding back.

Regardless he hits harder then spider-man does. And even a not holding back spider-man hits pretty hard. Not as hard as venom but still hard (and I will admit Eddie tanked Peters strongest attacks all the time so I do believe Brock probably could have did the same thing). And it isn't much of a stretch to believe Rand is stronger then spider-man considering he had a bunch of other powers peter did not have (stingers and organic webbing). We really don't know how Rands physicals compare to Peters. Its no knock against Phil considering Rands only feat is fighting Phil to my knowledge

I just want to point out my statement was never that Phil would beat Eddie I was merely saying that Phil does have durability and he also has a bit more then the scream.

@BringnIt said:

@jashro44 Consider my statement retracted regarding Flash. I clearly misrembered that issue badly. That said, Brock's durability to sonics is greater than Flash's (Brock has tanked sonic weaponry specifically designed by Reed Richards to take the symbiote down, for example) and Flash was severely hampered by some bats during the Kraven fight. Phil's destruction of Flash, which I clearly forgot about (only remembering the scene where he escapes the sonics) is consistent with Taskmaster's fight with Flash, too. Eddie on the other hand frequently used abilities like invisibility and sneak attacks with the tendrils that Flash tends to ignore, as well as consistently proving at least as fast as Spider-Man. Excluding the initial meeting in Horizon where Peter was overpowered by Phil's scream, Phil has never had the advantage on Peter that I can recall, whereas Eddie wrecked Peter routinely. Phil has the means to hurt Eddie, but I don't believe he has the physical prowess or skills to do so.

Fair enough.

@cameron83 said:

@jashro44: Congratulations....

I am now a big fan of Phil Urich,AND I am convinced that he can defeat venom (eddie).

Not saying he will,just saying that it's more possible

lol thanks.

#15 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: There's still no evidence that Rand was any stronger than Peter. All we know is Phil took a harder hit from him than he did from Spider-Man...who, as stated, pulls most of his punches anyway. Rand (nor any of the other infected New Yorkers in Spider-Island) has no strength feats that show that he's even as strong as Peter. Eddie Brock as Venom, On the other hand, was stronger than Spider-Man and never felt any need to pull his punches. He also utilized the abilities of the symbiote to a far greater extent and with much greater ability than any of the other hosts ever have.

It's entirely possible Phil was just playing around with Rand...but he still didn't win the fight. And if he tries playing around with Eddie, which is in character for him to do, he's going to get himself killed. Eddie enjoyed toying with Spider-Man but whenever he was up against anyone else...he typically went for the kill.

#16 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

There's still no evidence that Rand was any stronger than Peter. All we know is Phil took a harder hit from him than he did from Spider-Man...who, as stated, pulls most of his punches anyway. Rand (nor any of the other infected New Yorkers in Spider-Island) has no strength feats that show that he's even as strong as Peter.

Well again we don't have much to go off of other then Phils statement and the fact Rand has extra powers. But my point is Rands only showing is his fight with Phil. We have nothing to compare Phils performance to or any showings to gauge Rands abilities. Rand was the only one who showed stingers during spider-island so it is possible everyone had different powers during spider-island and everyone was at a different level. Its possible Rand was lucky as Phil put it and was one of the few people more powerful then Peter (maybe). I am not saying it is a sure thing he was more powerful I am saying, we don't know and therefore it is ambiguous to use. I don't think its an impressive combat showing but I don't think its a bad one either. It does show durability and also shows some equipment (the weird lightning hand Phil used to blind Rand).

Also Rand had abilities to counter almost all of Phils attacks which venom does not have.

  1. Stingers prevented Phil from using his scream and not only does venom not have the same abilities to counter the scream the lunatic laugh also hurts venom more then most attacks (not saying it will drop him as brocks pain tolerance is impressive as again I am not even saying Phil will win)
  2. When Rand blinded Rand, Rand was able to use spider-sense. Eddie does not have spider-sense. If he gets blinded Phil can potentially use the lunatic laugh to expose brocks neck (I don't think the laugh will stop him but it might tare the symbiote off of brock a bit in order to leave him open for decapitation)

Point being a fight with Rand isn't that bad a showing as we have no idea how powerful Rand was, We don't even know if Phil would have lost as he was fine after the car beat down, there are differences between venom and Rand in abilities which makes this a different fight all together.

Eddie Brock as Venom, On the other hand, was stronger than Spider-Man and never felt any need to pull his punches. He also utilized the abilities of the symbiote to a far greater extent and with much greater ability than any of the other hosts ever have.

I agree I believe I mentioned that in my previous post. I defiantly believe Brocks creativeness and stats play a role and why I think he has the potential to win.

It's entirely possible Phil was just playing around with Rand...but he still didn't win the fight.

I never said he played around with Rand I think he took a dive. I believe he faked defeat when Rand and Nora started fighting. I don't count it as a win (all though I think he would have won had he gotten up as even Rand admitted he couldn't match his skill and experience) but I don't count it as a loss.

All though you are correct about Phil being arrogant and that is a factor.

And if he tries playing around with Eddie, which is in character for him to do, he's going to get himself killed. Eddie enjoyed toying with Spider-Man but whenever he was up against anyone else...he typically went for the kill.

Fair enough. I was mainly trying to dispute that Phil is durable and that his showing against Rand is a bad showing. I wouldn't have made this fight if I didn't think Eddie never stood a chance. I think a case can be made for either side.

#17 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I agree about the durability. That armour he wears can take a pounding.

I don't agree that's there's enough of a showing from Rand to even suggest he's any stronger than Spider-Man.

You are right about Rand not having any other combat showings...and yet...he fought Phil to a stalemate. I'll agree that after Rand hit him with the cab and him and Norah broke up...Phil lost his primary motivation for attacking Rand in the first place and so maybe he just decided to take a dive there...but until that point..he was trying to kill him...and he couldn't do it. This is exactly why I'm not very impressed with Phil as Hobgoblin. He's kind of a one trick pony as far as I'm concerned. He's had some decent showings...but I have yet to see anything that puts him on Level with Brock as Venom.

#18 Edited by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

I don't agree that's there's enough of a showing from Rand to even suggest he's any stronger than Spider-Man.

You are right about Rand not having any other combat showings...and yet...he fought Phil to a stalemate

Again you say this like it should be a low showing. But we have no idea how powerful Rand is with those powers...His only showing is his fight with Phil. You can't say Phil losing to someone with an unknown power level is a low showing because we need to know Rands stats in order to quantify it.

Let me put it this way, should we assume super girl is weak because she hurt her hands punching H'el or should we simply assume H'el is just that powerful? Same deal with Rand, all we have to gauge his powers are his fight with Phil. Why should I look at it as a low showing for Phil as opposed to a good showing for Rand?

I'll agree that after Rand hit him with the cab and him and Norah broke up...Phil lost his primary motivation for attacking Rand in the first place and so maybe he just decided to take a dive there...but until that point..he was trying to kill him...and he couldn't do it.

He wasn't expecting Rand to have powers let alone abilities Peter doesn't even have. He didn't know what he was getting into. He was initially caught off guard and he had a personal vendetta with the guy so its possible he was dragging the fight out to make Rand suffer.

This is exactly why I'm not very impressed with Phil as Hobgoblin. He's kind of a one trick pony as far as I'm concerned. He's had some decent showings...but I have yet to see anything that puts him on Level with Brock as Venom.

That one trick could be all the edge he needs and he actually isn't one. Above are scans of him effortlessly stomping Flash (who I all ready said isn't as good as Brock admittedly all though he has a few decent feats) and having a flame sword to his neck in 2 pages.

And for the record I agree eddie has better feats but I think Phil is more well equipped to deal with Eddie which is why he has a chance. I think it could go either way personally.

#19 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

I don't agree that's there's enough of a showing from Rand to even suggest he's any stronger than Spider-Man.

You are right about Rand not having any other combat showings...and yet...he fought Phil to a stalemate

Again you say this like it should be a low showing. But we have no idea how powerful Rand is with those powers...His only showing is his fight with Phil. You can't say Phil losing to someone with an unknown power level is a low showing because we need to know Rands stats in order to quantify it.

Let me put it this way, should we assume super girl is weak because she hurt her hands punching H'el or should we simply assume H'el is just that powerful? Same deal with Rand, all we have to gauge his powers are his fight with Phil. Why should I look at it as a low showing for Phil as opposed to a good showing for Rand?

I'll agree that after Rand hit him with the cab and him and Norah broke up...Phil lost his primary motivation for attacking Rand in the first place and so maybe he just decided to take a dive there...but until that point..he was trying to kill him...and he couldn't do it.

He wasn't expecting Rand to have powers let alone abilities Peter doesn't even have. He didn't know what he was getting into. He was initially caught off guard and he had a personal vendetta with the guy so its possible he was dragging the fight out to make Rand suffer.

This is exactly why I'm not very impressed with Phil as Hobgoblin. He's kind of a one trick pony as far as I'm concerned. He's had some decent showings...but I have yet to see anything that puts him on Level with Brock as Venom.

That one trick could be all the edge he needs and he actually isn't one. Above are scans of him effortlessly stomping Flash (who I all ready said isn't as good as Brock admittedly all though he has a few decent feats) and having a flame sword to his neck in 2 pages.

He lost to a guy that had no idea how to use his powers. Rand has no combat experience. We know that Rand's stats must be somewhat similar to Peter's...since everyone else in Spider-Island showed stats similar to Peter's.

Maybe he drawing out the fight, Maybe he was trying to make Rand Suffer, Maybe this, Maybe that. You can't make an argument out of maybe's. What we know from the fight is that Phil attacked Rand, Rand fought back and eventually beat Phil. It could have been Goblin decided to stay down after he heard Norah and Rand Fighting...but we don't know that for sure. When next we see Phil he is looking pretty beat up. At best it means the Rand fought Phil to a stand still...at worst it means he took a beat down from a complete and total rookie.

Yeah...he did well against Flash. But Flash isn't half the Venom Brock was. Flash's best showings are when he Vulks out...which he did not do in that fight.

He didn't do quite so well when he went up against Spider-Girl.

#20 Edited by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

He lost to a guy that had no idea how to use his powers. Rand has no combat experience. We know that Rand's stats must be somewhat similar to Peter's...since everyone else in Spider-Island showed stats similar to Peter's.

Key word is similar not exact. Eddie also has similar power to spider-man but he is clearly stronger...

Maybe he drawing out the fight, Maybe he was trying to make Rand Suffer, Maybe this, Maybe that. You can't make an argument out of maybe's

That is literally my point. You can't confirm Rands stats, everything is maybes surrounding it other then rand slamming a car into him. And he obviously stayed down because he wanted to.

What we know from the fight is that Phil attacked Rand, Rand fought back and eventually beat Phil.

Except he didn't beat Phil...Phil was not KO, Incapacitated, or dead.

It could have been Goblin decided to stay down after he heard Norah and Rand Fighting...but we don't know that for sure

Yes we do. It is right there. I don't even know what to say at this point. He didn't get up because he didn't want to fight. There is no getting around it.

When next we see Phil he is looking pretty beat up. At best it means the Rand fought Phil to a stand still...at worst it means he took a beat down from a complete and total rookie.

Who has unknown stats...

Yeah...he did well against Flash. But Flash isn't half the Venom Brock was. Flash's best showings are when he Vulks out...which he did not do in that fight.

I did not bring up flash in comparison to Eddie I brought him up in comparison to Rand. Flash is not a rookie with a similar power set as rand (all though slightly different in some ways) yet he was still stomped. Rand being a rookie is irrelevant. WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW POWERFUL HE WAS!!!

Rands inexperience is irrelevant if he is vastly superior in stats which was probably the case.

He didn't do quite so well when he went up against Spider-Girl.

Never read that issue so I have no idea but wasn't spider-man there? Anyways Venom lost to Shriek and couldn't tag daredevil. See I can downplay to...

And I have no idea why you brought that up because I wasn't saying Phil wins. All I am saying is Rand is not a low showing for Phil. Seems random to bring up a low showing....

#21 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

He lost to a guy that had no idea how to use his powers. Rand has no combat experience. We know that Rand's stats must be somewhat similar to Peter's...since everyone else in Spider-Island showed stats similar to Peter's.

Key word is similar not exact. Eddie also has similar power to spider-man but he is clearly stronger...

Maybe he drawing out the fight, Maybe he was trying to make Rand Suffer, Maybe this, Maybe that. You can't make an argument out of maybe's

That is literally my point. You can't confirm Rands stats, everything is maybes surrounding it other then rand slamming a car into him. And he obviously stayed down because he wanted to.

What we know from the fight is that Phil attacked Rand, Rand fought back and eventually beat Phil.

Except he didn't beat Phil...Phil was not KO, Incapacitated, or dead.

It could have been Goblin decided to stay down after he heard Norah and Rand Fighting...but we don't know that for sure

Yes we do. It is right there. I don't even know what to say at this point. He didn't get up because he didn't want to fight. There is no getting around it.

When next we see Phil he is looking pretty beat up. At best it means the Rand fought Phil to a stand still...at worst it means he took a beat down from a complete and total rookie.

Who has unknown stats...

Yeah...he did well against Flash. But Flash isn't half the Venom Brock was. Flash's best showings are when he Vulks out...which he did not do in that fight.

I did not bring up flash in comparison to Eddie I brought him up in comparison to Rand. Flash is not a rookie with a similar power set as rand (all though slightly different in some ways) yet he was still stomped. Rand being a rookie is irrelevant. WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW POWERFUL HE WAS!!!

Rands inexperience is irrelevant if he is vastly superior in stats which was probably the case.

He didn't do quite so well when he went up against Spider-Girl.

Never read that issue so I have no idea but wasn't spider-man there? Anyways Venom lost to Shriek and couldn't tag daredevil. See I can downplay to...

And I have no idea why you brought that up because I wasn't saying Phil wins. All I am saying is Rand is not a low showing for Phil. Seems random to bring up a low showing....

We know that Rand was around Peter's level. Everyone in Spider-Island was. There's not a single example of any of the infected being any stronger than Peter. You're basing an entire argument that he was somehow stronger than Peter because of one-line that Phil says about him hitting harder than Spider-Man. But since Peter pulls his punches...Phil has never actually taken a full strength punch from Spider-Man so he really has no idea how strong Spider-Man is. Rand's Stats are basically confirmed by the thousands of other people that all had around Peter's level of strength. Based on actual FEATS...there is nothing that even remotely suggests he's stronger than Peter.

The end result may not be perfectly clear but one thing we do know is Phil did not Win that fight. Maybe he gave up because he didn't need to fight anymore. It does appear that he just decided not to continue the fight after Norah got dumped. But when next we see him out of Goblin guise...he is pretty beat up....so it's not like he made it through the battle unscathed. In fact...he looks more beat up than Randy does.

I don't consider it a Low-Showing for Phil at all. I see it as what happens when he doesn't use his Lunatic Laugh or when it's countered. That's his big move...without it...he's a second rate Hobgoblin at best. That's the way i see it...he doesn't belong in the ring against someone like Venom.

As for Spider-Girl...yeah...Spidey showed up...but he actually ended up getting in the way more than he helped.:

That fight isn't ambiguous at all. Phil clearly lost.

#22 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

If Flash can manage it, so can Eddie.

#23 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

We know that Rand was around Peter's level. Everyone in Spider-Island was. There's not a single example of any of the infected being any stronger than Peter. You're basing an entire argument that he was somehow stronger than Peter because of one-line that Phil says about him hitting harder than Spider-Man. But since Peter pulls his punches...Phil has never actually taken a full strength punch from Spider-Man so he really has no idea how strong Spider-Man is.

No I am saying he could potentially be more powerful because he has shown other abilities then Peter and it was stated he was "way stronger than spider-man". The problem with Rand is we don't know for certain what his stats were...

Rand's Stats are basically confirmed by the thousands of other people that all had around Peter's level of strength. Based on actual FEATS...there is nothing that even remotely suggests he's stronger than Peter.

Again Rand was the only one to show those stingers. How we even know everyone in spider-island was at the same power level? Rands only feat is fighting hobgoblin, so how do we know his powers weren't enough to over come Phils various gadgets and abilities? Peters weren't which is why he built the stealth suit in the first place.

The end result may not be perfectly clear but one thing we do know is Phil did not Win that fight. Maybe he gave up because he didn't need to fight anymore. It does appear that he just decided not to continue the fight after Norah got dumped. But when next we see him out of Goblin guise...he is pretty beat up....so it's not like he made it through the battle unscathed. In fact...he looks more beat up than Randy does.

Doesn't matter. Rand is not Peter or venom and there showings are not interchangeable. We don't know what his stats were. If you can give me actual confirmation on his stats then I will consider of thinking Rand hurting Phil means anything. And again its pretty clear Phil was fine and ready to go after the car slam.

I don't consider it a Low-Showing for Phil at all. I see it as what happens when he doesn't use his Lunatic Laugh or when it's countered. That's his big move...without it...he's a second rate Hobgoblin at best. That's the way i see it...he doesn't belong in the ring against someone like Venom.

Irreverent because he has the lunatic laugh here.

As for Spider-Girl...yeah...Spidey showed up...but he actually ended up getting in the way more than he helped.:

She prepped for the laugh which is a big advantage he has here. She found a way to make it less effective. This isn't the case here. If anything the laugh will be more effective then normal. It is a bad showing and thats all there is to it. I never read spider-girls series but what is her laugh made of? In amazing spider-man 697 Phil and Kingsley were denting steel with there punches. And IIRC during big time after spider-man was affected with he scream Phil also punched him with enough force that steal dented again (I think it was amazing spider-man 651).

#24 Posted by Shawnbaby (10450 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

We know that Rand was around Peter's level. Everyone in Spider-Island was. There's not a single example of any of the infected being any stronger than Peter. You're basing an entire argument that he was somehow stronger than Peter because of one-line that Phil says about him hitting harder than Spider-Man. But since Peter pulls his punches...Phil has never actually taken a full strength punch from Spider-Man so he really has no idea how strong Spider-Man is.

No I am saying he could potentially be more powerful because he has shown other abilities then Peter and it was stated he was "way stronger than spider-man". The problem with Rand is we don't know for certain what his stats were...

Rand's Stats are basically confirmed by the thousands of other people that all had around Peter's level of strength. Based on actual FEATS...there is nothing that even remotely suggests he's stronger than Peter.

Again Rand was the only one to show those stingers. How we even know everyone in spider-island was at the same power level? Rands only feat is fighting hobgoblin, so how do we know his powers weren't enough to over come Phils various gadgets and abilities? Peters weren't which is why he built the stealth suit in the first place.

The end result may not be perfectly clear but one thing we do know is Phil did not Win that fight. Maybe he gave up because he didn't need to fight anymore. It does appear that he just decided not to continue the fight after Norah got dumped. But when next we see him out of Goblin guise...he is pretty beat up....so it's not like he made it through the battle unscathed. In fact...he looks more beat up than Randy does.

Doesn't matter. Rand is not Peter or venom and there showings are not interchangeable. We don't know what his stats were. If you can give me actual confirmation on his stats then I will consider of thinking Rand hurting Phil means anything. And again its pretty clear Phil was fine and ready to go after the car slam.

I don't consider it a Low-Showing for Phil at all. I see it as what happens when he doesn't use his Lunatic Laugh or when it's countered. That's his big move...without it...he's a second rate Hobgoblin at best. That's the way i see it...he doesn't belong in the ring against someone like Venom.

Irreverent because he has the lunatic laugh here.

As for Spider-Girl...yeah...Spidey showed up...but he actually ended up getting in the way more than he helped.:

She prepped for the laugh which is a big advantage he has here. She found a way to make it less effective. This isn't the case here. If anything the laugh will be more effective then normal. It is a bad showing and thats all there is to it. I never read spider-girls series but what is her laugh made of? In amazing spider-man 697 Phil and Kingsley were denting steel with there punches. And IIRC during big time after spider-man was affected with he scream Phil also punched him with enough force that steal dented again (I think it was amazing spider-man 651).

As I've said a million times now...it doesn't matter what Phil said...because he's never taken a full force hit from Spider-Man...he doesn't have any real clue exactly how strong Spider-Man is. So exactly how can he gauge whether or not Randy is Stronger? He really can't...so the quote is entirely meaningless. We may not know exaclty how strong Randy was...but there's no reason at all to think he may have been stronger. The whole purpose of the event was to give New York Spider-Man like powers. I'ts pretty safe to assume people had power levels around the same level as Spidey.

The only thing Peter wasn't equipped to overcome was the Lunatic Laugh. Which Phil didn't actually use in his fight with Randy.

I've never used Rand and Peter as being interchangeable...but we have a general idea how strong Rand would have been...and that's around Spidey's level. Nothing suggests it was any higher. Randy doesn't have the skill or experience Eddie or Peter have....but he still managed to fight Phil to a draw.

It's not irrelevant because Eddie has some really impressive showings tanking Sonic Attacks. And Phil often doesn't use the laugh in fights anyway. He never used it against Randy....and that's why he was having so much trouble. If Eddie can tank the laugh (and I believe he can) or if Phil doesn't use it right away Eddie will tear through Phil like wet toilet Paper.

Yeah, Anya prepped for the scream a little...but she beat him with the oldest trick in the book....web him to a light pole and get him to charge. He got made to look like a fool by a 16 year old girl.

And about 697....he got schooled by Kingsley there..which is further evidence of him being a second rate Hobgoblin

Anyways, It's clear that neither of us is going to give any ground here...I've made my argument...I stand by it...doesn't seem like there's much more to say than that. Phil isn't overly impressive as far as I'm concerned. He's not ready for the big leagues yet.

#25 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

As I've said a million times now...it doesn't matter what Phil said...because he's never taken a full force hit from Spider-Man...he doesn't have any real clue exactly how strong Spider-Man is. So exactly how can he gauge whether or not Randy is Stronger? He really can't...so the quote is entirely meaningless. We may not know exaclty how strong Randy was...but there's no reason at all to think he may have been stronger.

I am not basing my reasoning solely on that statement. In fact I haven't even focused much on it in my responses. I believe I actually acknowledged many posts ago that it could be because Peter was holding back. What I am saying is Rand has different abilities so we don't know what his stats are like in comparison to Peters, the statement just further enhances that possibility. It seems based off of that issue that powers varied in spider-island. Another example is how when MJ first got spider-powers she back handed 2 spiders and yet Peter could barely hold back Jameson. We have nothing to compare Phils showing with Rand because we don't know how other people would have done with Rand. Bringing up as a low combat showing is pointless. One of Peters co-workers (forget her name) also showed off spider-hearing, and yet another random guy tried to touch Mary Jane and the thing ambushed him which kind of supports the notion he doesn't have spider-sense or hearing.

We may not know exaclty how strong Randy was...but there's no reason at all to think he may have been stronger. The whole purpose of the event was to give New York Spider-Man like powers. I'ts pretty safe to assume people had power levels around the same level as Spidey.

Again en-thesis on spider-like abilities. Not exact abilities Peter had.

The only thing Peter wasn't equipped to overcome was the Lunatic Laugh.

Pretty much. But the issue here is that Phil is using the laugh on some one who is more venerable to sonics. Eddie has good pain tolerance but Peters is also pretty good as well.

Which Phil didn't actually use in his fight with Randy.

He actually tried to use the laugh but Rands abilities canceled it out.

My laugh?! You stopped it? But--

I've never used Rand and Peter as being interchangeable...

It sounded like you were but whatever.

.but we have a general idea how strong Rand would have been...and that's around Spidey's level. Nothing suggests it was any higher. Randy doesn't have the skill or experience Eddie or Peter have....but he still managed to fight Phil to a draw.

We don't have an exact idea how powerful he was though. All we know is his powers allowed him to survive Phil (not defeat survive). What Rand does and what Venom and Peter do are 2 different things. We have nothing to compare Phils showing to so we don't know if its bad or not.

It's not irrelevant because Eddie has some really impressive showings tanking Sonic Attacks.

Yes but he is always hurt. What I was saying was showings where Phil could not use the laugh are irrelevant because he can use it here.

Again I want to go out on record and said I never said Venom would win or lose. I am mainly disagreeing with the rand showing being a low showing.

And Phil often doesn't use the laugh in fights anyway. He never used it against Randy....

He has used the laugh in a majority of his showings actually. He used it against Peter, He used it against him again in Fisk tower, He used it against spider-girl, he tried using it against Rand, He used it against Flash, He used it against the hob goblin impersonator, etc.

If Eddie can tank the laugh (and I believe he can) or if Phil doesn't use it right away Eddie will tear through Phil like wet toilet Paper.

Fair enough.

Yeah, Anya prepped for the scream a little...but she beat him with the oldest trick in the book....web him to a light pole and get him to charge. He got made to look like a fool by a 16 year old girl.

So? Again I all ready acknowledged its a bad showing for Phil. The only thing I actually said about the showing was that she prepped for the scream which lowered its effectiveness.

And about 697....he got schooled by Kingsley there..which is further evidence of him being a second rate Hobgoblin

He double crossed Phil. It was a different scenario then the one here.

Anyways, It's clear that neither of us is going to give any ground here...I've made my argument...I stand by it...doesn't seem like there's much more to say than that. Phil isn't overly impressive as far as I'm concerned. He's not ready for the big leagues yet.

If you want to agree to disagree that's fine.

#26 Posted by laflux (14251 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

We know that Rand was around Peter's level. Everyone in Spider-Island was. There's not a single example of any of the infected being any stronger than Peter. You're basing an entire argument that he was somehow stronger than Peter because of one-line that Phil says about him hitting harder than Spider-Man. But since Peter pulls his punches...Phil has never actually taken a full strength punch from Spider-Man so he really has no idea how strong Spider-Man is.

No I am saying he could potentially be more powerful because he has shown other abilities then Peter and it was stated he was "way stronger than spider-man". The problem with Rand is we don't know for certain what his stats were...

Rand's Stats are basically confirmed by the thousands of other people that all had around Peter's level of strength. Based on actual FEATS...there is nothing that even remotely suggests he's stronger than Peter.

Again Rand was the only one to show those stingers. How we even know everyone in spider-island was at the same power level? Rands only feat is fighting hobgoblin, so how do we know his powers weren't enough to over come Phils various gadgets and abilities? Peters weren't which is why he built the stealth suit in the first place.

Maybe its my rabid fanboyism, but I don't think Rand is Stronger than Spider-Man.

#27 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Again I am not saying Rand is stronger. I am saying we don't know. We have nothing to compare Phils performance to because we don't know the extent of Rands strength or abilities. His only showing is his fight with Phil. To be honest in a battle forum Peter would probably beat Rand but mainly because we don't know much about his abilities.