team 1 starts behind Garage team 2 behind the Oil Truck
Prep: Both Teams get 45 Minutes Prep to study the map and a basic roster on the enemy team.
In Character
Teams will work together
No BFR
Death or KO
Perks
Each team can have 2 members choose the following Perks.
Super Carbonadium Weapon Upgrade. Hand Weapons are Indestructible and Slow Healing Factors. This applies to Projectiles (Guns and Ammo, Bows and Arrows, Batarangs, ect) as well.
Magic Psy Shield. Your character can have immunity to all Psychic attack and powers. Includes Illusion Casting, Status Changers (Poison, Blindness, ect), Magic attacks, and Time Manipulation as well.
Mijnor Armor. Characters gains a version of Halo (First Game) Master Chief Armor with Shields. Only the Durability Enhancement Applies.
The Venom, Banshee, and Red Eye Drug. Gain Wolverine's Healing Factor and Senses. Gain Bane's strength added onto yours. Gain Bullet Speed onto your own. The strength and Speed Benefit WILL Legally put you past the set stats! As In you will be stronger and Faster than the limits if your character is already at the limit.
@jashro44 Ohh I forgot to @you in the OP. It's here
For the record I'm taking the The Venom, Banshee, and Red Eye Drug perk for both Shield and Argus. That makes Shield seriously trouble since all his stats before the perk were at the limit already ( strength and durability equal to Luke Cage, Speed and agility equal to Spidey, plus a healing factor ). Not to mention adding Wolverine's HF to Argus' plus his senses added onto Argus' sight and further increasing his speed and strength.
Until @jashro44 chooses his perks some opening musings
1. I'll assume that Cadence meant the Shack by Garage ( opposite corner from the oil truck)
2. Obviously I have the sense advantage. Both Argus and Justice will be able to see the position of my opponents from the outset.
3. Since I'm the only one with a teleporter ( in Occult) I also have the advantage of determining the exact area of the battle field in which we meet. He can only teleport one person with him at a time but that is more than enough.
4. Occult will both TP shield my team from Xraven and link my team telepathically. As back up he will caste a minor spell to protect all my team from TP should he fall and his TP shield be lost. The TP link will also mean that all my team benefit from Argus and Justice's senses plus Occults mystic senses. This will be a further advantage as that means all my team will see the weak points in armor, movement read, have slight clairvoyance, etc.
5. With the venom perk Shield will easily deal with Spidey. He is every bit Sidey's match in speed and agility normally and his superior in strength and durability. With all these amped even if Spidey was on the Venom he would struggle. Especially if Occult is thowing out some illusions or casting some minor spells to falsely trip his spidey sense and divert him.
6. Argus can normally find the weak point in armor and with his senses amped should have no trouble knowing where to strike to do T'Challa the most harm. Add in his predictive vision and he can certainly out react BP. His shadow meld wont do much good against BP because of his hearing and smell but he is easily BP physical match normally and his other abilities make up for any short falls.
7. Justice's shields will protect him from static long enough for his "sword hand" to bring him down. Static will likely think he has Justice's number seeing an energy blast and believe his elctromagnetic powers will shield it. He will be quite surprised I would think to find out that there is nothing electrical or magnetic about the energy Justice wields.
8. Occult only has to stay invisible and intangible until he gets the drop on Xraven. His energy shields will also block most his attacks plus he can blast him with the symbol as well. not to mention his TK should be a close match if not slightly better than what Jean had originally.
@beatboks1: I will choose the magic Psy shield perk and I will equip it to spider-man and Xraven.
1. I'll assume that Cadence meant the Shack by Garage ( opposite corner from the oil truck)
2. Obviously I have the sense advantage. Both Argus and Justice will be able to see the position of my opponents from the outset.
I don't think you have the sense advantage here. Both spider-man and spider-island black panther have the abilities to track with there spider-sense. Not to mention that Xraven has been able to shut off the enhanced senses of wolverine so unless you have total telepathic immunity he can do the same to Argus and Justice.
3. Since I'm the only one with a teleporter ( in Occult) I also have the advantage of determining the exact area of the battle field in which we meet. He can only teleport one person with him at a time but that is more than enough.
I do have a teleporter. Current black panther in Marvel Now! has a teleporter with his standard gear and I do have it listed with the equipment above.
Black panther is also capable to teleporting one person with him. He can possibly teleport more as the limits haven't been explored as of yet.
So my team is just as much capable to getting the drop on yours so it is likely going to come down to who is quicker to the draw between our teleporters. In which case I say black panther under these conditions. During spider-island Black panther had spider-powers and was just as fast and agile as spider-man (thrown in with his skill and also he had spider-sense) so T'challa is likely faster of the two due to having super human speed. Not to mention where ever your team teleport spider-island black panther and spider-man will be able to track where with spider-sense.
4. Occult will both TP shield my team from Xraven and link my team telepathically. As back up he will caste a minor spell to protect all my team from TP should he fall and his TP shield be lost. The TP link will also mean that all my team benefit from Argus and Justice's senses plus Occults mystic senses. This will be a further advantage as that means all my team will see the weak points in armor, movement read, have slight clairvoyance, etc.
To what degree can he shield your team from TP? Like is your team completely immune or is it just he can't use mind control on your team? Xraven is likely capable of linking my team telepathically as well if need be so I don't think thats enough to give you an advantage since I can do the same.
5. With the venom perk Shield will easily deal with Spidey. He is every bit Sidey's match in speed and agility normally and his superior in strength and durability. With all these amped even if Spidey was on the Venom he would struggle. Especially if Occult is thowing out some illusions or casting some minor spells to falsely trip his spidey sense and divert him.
What makes you say Shield is as fast and agile as spider-man? As for the strength advantage increasing, Bane is only a 2-3 tonner so you go from 25 tons up to 27-28 tons. Peter has taken hits from lots of class 100s and up so he can hold out for a while. Even if Shield can match spider-mans speed and agility, Peter should have a reactionary advantage due to spider-sense. And does Shield have any long range attacks? Peters webbing is a lot more versatile then most would think.
6. Argus can normally find the weak point in armor and with his senses amped should have no trouble knowing where to strike to do T'Challa the most harm. Add in his predictive vision and he can certainly out react BP. His shadow meld wont do much good against BP because of his hearing and smell but he is easily BP physical match normally and his other abilities make up for any short falls.
I doubt that Argus can out react this version of black panther that has spider-sense. The version of black panther I am using has spider-powers including spider-sense.
This is the version of black panther I am using. He has spider-man level strength and speed, along with spider-sense and organic webbing. He also has 6 arms as opposed to having two.
Thrown in with the gear I have in the OP? I don't think Argus can't afford to get hit.
7. Justice's shields will protect him from static long enough for his "sword hand" to bring him down. Static will likely think he has Justice's number seeing an energy blast and believe his elctromagnetic powers will shield it. He will be quite surprised I would think to find out that there is nothing electrical or magnetic about the energy Justice wields.
Justice might not get the chance to fire a energy beam off. Static has some pretty good reaction feats. He has been able to react to bullets in mid flight, so can Justice counter Statics electrical blasts? How powerful are his energy beams?
8. Occult only has to stay invisible and intangible until he gets the drop on Xraven. His energy shields will also block most his attacks plus he can blast him with the symbol as well. not to mention his TK should be a close match if not slightly better than what Jean had originally.
IIRC Beast does have enhanced senses (I will need to double check for a scan of that), so it might be hard to hide from Xraven especially since he has the hunting skills of Kraven the hunter. As far as intangibility has he ever phased through something as dense as vibranium? The reason I ask is sometimes characters with intangibility can only phase through certain objects. For example wolverines claws are so dense they have been able to scratch Kitty before despite her being intangible.
1.The sense advantage is definitely mine. Argus can see through things, the weakness of things, the truth behind things, Things outside the visible spectrum, can see and track the movement of Speedsters like Flash, see things about to happen ( so he's definitely out reacting BP), see how things go together, see through codes. All this is without his senses further enhanced to wolverine levels with the venom.
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once you add in the ability of Justice to see and track a persons aura from miles away and the mystic senses of Occult that also give slight clairvoyance this isn't even up for debate.
2. The fact that I will be able to know your exact position from starting point which teh spider senses will not allow still means I can get the more effective use of teleportation earlier. Since I'm going to know where your guy's are first I will be first on the draw.
3. The magic spell shield on top of the TP shielding of Occult will mean completely immune.
4.Shield is as fast and agile as Spiderman. He was the first super patriot. a super gymnast and could outrun/move speeding cars. He's like combining Luke cage, Spiderman and Captain America into one. he tanks bursting shells, flame throwers, ectro rays and can pick up a tank by it's turret and throw it. Spidey's webs are doing jack to him.
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And this is without gaining Bane's strength, bullet speed and Wolverine's senses and healing factor on top. Even when he isn't wearing his uniform which is a catalyst to his serum/ formula and he isn't impervious his healing factor meant he could heal straight away.
5. Yes he will out react him. At normal levels he's enhanced physically by a factor of 5. His vision allows him to see what is about to happen and movement read. Batgirl and shiva without his enhancements. Considering his speed is five times theirs and in this with the perk he has bullet speed in addition he's going to make BP look very slow. His ability to see the weakest point in armor will also mean he will know where to strike to do the most damage. plus he has his sonic grenades that will rip BP's oh so sensitive hearing to shreds
6. I don't think he will have much trouble countering Statics blasts his shields have withstood quite a bit. Plus he's reacted to machine gun fire.
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7. Seriously Occult can be intangible, invisible, outside the very realm in a side realm of the astral plane ( so right beside you but not really there). Plus he can create illusions, and has hypnotic powers that can be diversionary. Even without all that he can use his TK to move things elsewhere away from him also as a diversion. Besides which he's hidden himself even from the senses of Superman, I seriously doubt that Xraven will since what the man of steel could not.
@jashro44: Here is Occult catching Superman with his pants down as it were. Unless your saying that Xraven's senses are even greater thanhis I don't see an issue with him sneaking up on him
There are a couple more times (like their first encounter)
here is Occult "outside of time" (or off to the side). He can't change or affect the time line and once the journey's begun he has to see it through.
He can take his team where others can't. So in the 45 minutes prep he can take them on a tour of the battle that is about to begin. See one possible future before it's played out. The way they change their actions as a result will of course alter that future but that would still give them the "jump" as it were.
Also Occult's TP is great enough ( at least in reading) that he can sense even what the Phantom Stranger cannot.
I will admit though his attack with TP has always been peripheral and he more often uses his Hypnosis to control than actual TP
Also now that I know your Perk switching tact. Occult will take on static who won't be immune to his blasts and Justice will take it to Kraven. I know technically his blast and shield are "anti-magic" but I'm sure under Cadence's ruling it would still be protected by the PSY magic shield.
@beatboks1: Just a heads up but at some points I forgot Argus had the perk so I may accidentally say he has the physicals of 5 men so if I do just ignore that part.
1.The sense advantage is definitely mine. Argus can see through things, the weakness of things, the truth behind things, Things outside the visible spectrum, can see and track the movement of Speedsters like Flash, see things about to happen ( so he's definitely out reacting BP), see how things go together, see through codes. All this is without his senses further enhanced to wolverine levels with the venom.
The sense advantage goes both ways though. Spider-man and black panther can easily use spider-sense to track down your team if they need it.
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Using spider-sense to locate a bomb with ease.More tracking.Peter tracking a thief in a helicopter.Solo teleports in and spider-man senses him with ease. The only reason he didn't react immediately was because he thought it was the guy with the gun that was the threat, not solo.
So my team has two guys who can track you as well. If you guys try to teleport in we will know where you are and you could get blitzed by black panther or spider-man. You can only teleport one of your guys in at once as you said. Even if Shield or Argus can match one of spider-man or black panther in terms of speed he can't match them both. And that's also ignoring that Black panther himself is a teleporter as well so he can close the gap instantly as well.
And on the subject of reaction speed, Spider-sense has allowed spider-man to move out of the way of projectiles before they have been fired in the past. So Argus can be able to react in nano second but spider-man and black panther in these conditions will be reacting before the punch is thrown.
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He can sense out comes about to happen but does he do it in combat or does he need to focus? Also reading through your scans on the 4th scan you uploaded it seems he sees a accident but is unable to do anything to stop it? And as for the flash scan how fast was flash moving at the time? Characters tag speedsters all the time in comics. Hulk tags silver surfer, sentry, Gladiator when he really shouldn't be able to for example. Deathstroke, Batman, nightwing, manhunter shaw, and I think cheshire have tagged the flash in the past. Not to down play the feat but from what I have seen of flash (I will be honest and say I don't read much with the character) he doesn't move as fast as he should move. In a battle forum he is untouchable but in comics it seems he doesn't always move at his max speeds.
once you add in the ability of Justice to see and track a persons aura from miles away and the mystic senses of Occult that also give slight clairvoyance this isn't even up for debate.
Well as I said above even if your team does have a tracking advantage my team can't be caught off guard. I have to people who can predict your teleports before they happen and one of them is a teleporter himself. If Occult doesn't react fast enough he is getting blitzed.
2. The fact that I will be able to know your exact position from starting point which teh spider senses will not allow still means I can get the more effective use of teleportation earlier. Since I'm going to know where your guy's are first I will be first on the draw.
Yea but you can only teleport one member of your team at a time right? So then wont you have to teleport 2 of your guys to deal with my entire team? If Occult teleports away to get the other members that leaves one of your team members to have to go a 4 on 1 by himself. Even if it is only very brief its going to be hard to deal with the range, speed, agility, strength, and skill of my team.
3. The magic spell shield on top of the TP shielding of Occult will mean completely immune.
All right.
4.Shield is as fast and agile as Spiderman. He was the first super patriot. a super gymnast and could outrun/move speeding cars. He's like combining Luke cage, Spiderman and Captain America into one. he tanks bursting shells, flame throwers, ectro rays and can pick up a tank by it's turret and throw it. Spidey's webs are doing jack to him.
And this is without gaining Bane's strength, bullet speed and Wolverine's senses and healing factor on top. Even when he isn't wearing his uniform which is a catalyst to his serum/ formula and he isn't impervious his healing factor meant he could heal straight away.
Spider-man is all ready bullet level speed. He doesn't need that perk. Shield does seem stronger and more durable but I don't think he is faster.
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Sorry the scans are cropped funny but this was the best I could do. The issue is Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #1 if you wish to see the uncropped version.
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Spider-man blitzing daredevil.Spider-man blitzing kingpin at the speed of sub machine gun fire.
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Spider-man can use webbing to incapacitate if he blows a web cartridge on him. When he did this he incapacitated class 80 Blob.
5. Yes he will out react him. At normal levels he's enhanced physically by a factor of 5. His vision allows him to see what is about to happen and movement read. Batgirl and shiva without his enhancements. Considering his speed is five times theirs and in this with the perk he has bullet speed in addition he's going to make BP look very slow. His ability to see the weakest point in armor will also mean he will know where to strike to do the most damage. plus he has his sonic grenades that will rip BP's oh so sensitive hearing to shreds
Well as I posted above Spider-man is all ready bullet level fast. Thrown in with the teleporter, I would say black panther can keep up. And about the sonic grenade, during spider-island black panther didn't have his enhanced senses. It was during hells kitchen when he went to fill in for daredevil and decided to go in without gadgets and enhancements.
6. I don't think he will have much trouble countering Statics blasts his shields have withstood quite a bit. Plus he's reacted to machine gun fire.
I am not sure what is happening in the 3rd and 4th scan (I know he is blocking blasts but I am not sure from whom?). On the first scan it looks like his shields broke with a bomb? Statics blasts are a lot more powerful then that. He has been able to blast reinforced doors off there hinges effortlessly, and has been able to generate 20,000 volts. Also was it ever specifically stated that his blasts don't generate any electric charge at all? He could also do this I guess as well:
Static could always magnetize metal to attract his cloths to the metal. There are a few trucks and a trailer in the Location. And judging by the outside it looks like the location is made of metal.
7. Seriously Occult can be intangible, invisible, outside the very realm in a side realm of the astral plane ( so right beside you but not really there). Plus he can create illusions, and has hypnotic powers that can be diversionary. Even without all that he can use his TK to move things elsewhere away from him also as a diversion. Besides which he's hidden himself even from the senses of Superman, I seriously doubt that Xraven will since what the man of steel could not.
All right maybe Xraven wont be able to sense him. But can he match Xraven in a telepathic fight? (Xraven can't lose due to the magic Psy shield perk telepathy wont work on him). Xraven has the telepathic abilities of 60's Jean which IIRC was the limit for this tourney. And with the magical psy shield, Occult is going to have to think of alternate ways of hurting Xraven. And can his shields hold out to a blast that knocked down class 100 Colossus?
My point about senses is that my team can determine your exact position from base camp. Your team will sense us only when we are a danger. as such we can determine where we encounter each other. With Occult's clairvoyance we can make sure it's where we have the best chance.
Oh and those bullets are clearly under there own power to be able to change course etc. The power source in something as small as a bullet means it's highly unlikely they are travelling anywhere near a normal bullet velocity. The guy who fired them had time to step into their path after all.
I think with Shield your forgetting the perk. The perk alone would make him Spidey level speed even without his own enhanced speed ( and he can out move speeding cars plus has dodged weapons fire of mortars etc) . As for the web cartridge, without the perk he's survived falling through several levels of floors and having a mountain collapsed on him, and withstood (if not tanked) a bazooka blast at close range. Hell he's not even sure if he's laser proof ( having never tested his durability any where near that far). I seriously doubt that that is putting him down particularly with Banes strength added to his and Wolvies healing. Plus logans senses means all 4 of my team have senses that are peak.
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as for teleporting in obviously my first team member will be Argus. Since he can be functionally invisible and with a minor spell from Oc to also ensure he gives off no sound or smell there wont be any 4 on 1. Shield will be next. Justice is actually capable of teleporting as well but he hasn't mastered the ability. Even he admits he hasn't delved far into his abilities other than what he needs to dispense his brand of Justice. There is however the possibility that Oc could help him figure it out.
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As for Argus' speed he's taken on the Flash Rogues gallery. he eventually lost but not before buying the mayor of Central city enough time ti get across town
These guys all react to the Flash.
Now the Fourth scan I gave for Argus shows his ability to see things about to happen or "potential outcomes". That combined with Occult's clairvoyance and ability to watch the future if needed means we will be reacting to your next move while your reacting to our current. Just like in chess the one a move or two ahead will be the victor.
Knowing the exact position of the enemy at the outset we are going to have our battle field do most of the fighting for us. After all Shield is old military and not a bad tactician ( plus an FBI agent for decades)
Occult will teleport Justice to point 1 and Argus and Shield to point 2. To start with Argus will be in the shadows of the oil rig to use his shadow meld. he will then teleport to point 3. Telepathically linked while your team are still near the red start point ( having no danger to sense yet as we aren't close enough to give one). Justice and Occult will simultaneously blast and ignite the Refinery and oil tanks followed by propane tanks ( naturally as they start to blast your danger senses will be alerted ). the danger you sense wont actually be my team members but the billowing fires they have started so you wont be tracking anyone with them. Occult will use a spell to drive the winds from east west so that the fires will be moving toward your team. he will then collect Justice and join his other team mates.
The obvious response will be that Xraven will use Bobby's Ice power to try and control the fires while the rest of your team take the only "safe" path toward mine. This will make it 3 v 4 in my favor. Your team will be allerted as you approach but it will be too little too late.Only Spidey of the three approaching will be protected from Doc Occults TP ad illusions as Xraven wont be present to do so. If you choose any other way but for Xraven to control the fire your team is overcome by smoke and fall, possibly burning to death. It may not take Xraven long to bring the fires under control but it will be long enough. Occult will use hi magic to keep the fire going and to spread it and maintain it between Xraven and his team mates ( so that his magic protection wont help since it won protect him form the fire just direct magic.
While Static is being confused by the illusions and TP of Occult he and Justice are taking down Black Panther while Shield and Argus double team Spiderman. Justice can use his shields as a force attack to push BP to where Occult will teleport behind him at which point Occult teleport BP to most smoked filled area of teh amp and TK hold him untill he passes out from teh smoke. Justice starts his attack on Static eventually joined by Richard they then finish Static who can't breach their combined shields or defend against their combined blasts. Shield and Argus together make pretty quick work of Spidey as he won't be able to handle their combined further enhanced stats.
Or using his hypnotic power Occult could make the unprotected BP and Static think they are each others enemy and while they are fighting each other he and Justice easily finish them off and Join Shield and Argus in four timing Spidey and tehn doing it again to Xravven
My point about senses is that my team can determine your exact position from base camp. Your team will sense us only when we are a danger. as such we can determine where we encounter each other. With Occult's clairvoyance we can make sure it's where we have the best chance.
Well yes I do realize you do have the potential to realize where my team is from base camp but the thing is so do I. Spider-sense can be used for tracking. It is more then a danger sense is my point.
Oh and those bullets are clearly under there own power to be able to change course etc. The power source in something as small as a bullet means it's highly unlikely they are travelling anywhere near a normal bullet velocity. The guy who fired them had time to step into their path after all.
Tracer did not move out of the way of the bullets. The bullets changed course because they were locked onto spider-man. I don't think the power source would really matter. In comics a lot of things are possible. For example Tracer was later revealed to be a robot. In real life we don't have robots. Its not much of a stretch that the bullets had a power source which wouldn't alter there speed. Comic writers don't normally take these things into account. Besides I uploaded 2 other examples of spider-man blitzing bullet timers and a scan which states he is blitzing at the speed of a sub machine gun.
I think with Shield your forgetting the perk.
Yea that was my mistake (apologies for that)
The perk alone would make him Spidey level speed even without his own enhanced speed ( and he can out move speeding cars plus has dodged weapons fire of mortars etc) .
Thing is spider-man has taken hits from people out side his strength class before.
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Above he takes hits from Colossus when he was juggernaut. He even tosses doom bots at spider-man which explode with the force of a grenade. Peter is up and making jokes.
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This time Colossus is holding back (en-thesis on the holding back). All though we do know he hits spider-man with enough force to break his bones. However despite getting beat to a bloody pulp and a few broken bones spider-man stays standing. This isn't meant to show durability but pain tolerance. I believe Peters durability and pain tolerance thrown in with his spider-sense will allow him to survive long enough to explode a web cartridge on shield.
As for the web cartridge, without the perk he's survived falling through several levels of floors and having a mountain collapsed on him, and withstood (if not tanked) a bazooka blast at close range. Hell he's not even sure if he's laser proof ( having never tested his durability any where near that far). I seriously doubt that that is putting him down particularly with Banes strength added to his and Wolvies healing. Plus logans senses means all 4 of my team have senses that are peak.
Well durability is great but every needs to breath. What is stopping him from blacking out due to lack of air? And even so the point wasn't to put Shield down, but it leaves him incapacitated for an hour. One hour is enough time for spider-man to do something like go help static with Justice, and then when justice falls we can triple team Argus or Occult.
as for teleporting in obviously my first team member will be Argus. Since he can be functionally invisible and with a minor spell from Oc to also ensure he gives off no sound or smell there wont be any 4 on 1
Doesn't matter how silent or invisible he is. Spider-sense can detect him (it has done so above in the scans I posted) and I have 2 people on my team with that ability. Additionally Argus sonic grenade will also leave him vulnerable to be sensed by static as well.
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Or the kinetic energy he will create when moving around
Shield will be next. Justice is actually capable of teleporting as well but he hasn't mastered the ability. Even he admits he hasn't delved far into his abilities other than what he needs to dispense his brand of Justice. There is however the possibility that Oc could help him figure it out.
He only has 45 minutes though to learn to master his teleporting from Oc before the fight starts. I don't think that's enough time and I see it as a unlikely possibility.
As for Argus' speed he's taken on the Flash Rogues gallery. he eventually lost but not before buying the mayor of Central city enough time ti get across town
These guys all react to the Flash.
If they can react to the flash they should be able to react to a street leveler no problem. I don't read much Flash but I have seen scans of nightwing beating captain boomerang in hand to hand and I have heard Katana beat Mirror master by outsmarting (I don't have much more info then that) so it seems like the flash rouges aren't always written to the level they should be? It doesn't make any more sense then spider-man fighting the silver surfer (which has happened) unless I am misinformed on the flash and his rouges.
Now the Fourth scan I gave for Argus shows his ability to see things about to happen or "potential outcomes". That combined with Occult's clairvoyance and ability to watch the future if needed means we will be reacting to your next move while your reacting to our current. Just like in chess the one a move or two ahead will be the victor.
Can they do this while in combat? Or are you talking about in terms of prep?
Knowing the exact position of the enemy at the outset we are going to have our battle field do most of the fighting for us. After all Shield is old military and not a bad tactician ( plus an FBI agent for decades)
Occult will teleport Justice to point 1 and Argus and Shield to point 2. To start with Argus will be in the shadows of the oil rig to use his shadow meld. he will then teleport to point 3. Telepathically linked while your team are still near the red start point ( having no danger to sense yet as we aren't close enough to give one). Justice and Occult will simultaneously blast and ignite the Refinery and oil tanks followed by propane tanks ( naturally as they start to blast your danger senses will be alerted ). the danger you sense wont actually be my team members but the billowing fires they have started so you wont be tracking anyone with them. Occult will use a spell to drive the winds from east west so that the fires will be moving toward your team. he will then collect Justice and join his other team mates.
My team is capable of tracking without danger sense. Spider-sense has been used to do that before.
The obvious response will be that Xraven will use Bobby's Ice power to try and control the fires while the rest of your team take the only "safe" path toward mine. This will make it 3 v 4 in my favor.
Or Black panther can teleport my team out towards your team. And Xraven isn't the only one here with ice abilities. Spider-mans standard gear during slotts run was cryo capsules so those are also capable of helping out if needed.
Your team will be allerted as you approach but it will be too little too late.Only Spidey of the three approaching will be protected from Doc Occults TP ad illusions as Xraven wont be present to do so. If you choose any other way but for Xraven to control the fire your team is overcome by smoke and fall, possibly burning to death.
Static and black panther don't need the perk. They are all ready protected from TP. Cable could barely read black panther in cable 54, and static has always been extremely high end. The only time I think he has been mind controlled was by the anti-life equation and he shrugged it off.
Miss martian is unable to sense static.
Due to there TP resistance I don't see anyone entering there minds unless they allow it.
It may not take Xraven long to bring the fires under control but it will be long enough. Occult will use hi magic to keep the fire going and to spread it and maintain it between Xraven and his team mates ( so that his magic protection wont help since it won protect him form the fire just direct magic.
I am assuming your team is in a safe place away from the smoke and the fire, correct? How do you intend to keep your own team conscious?
While Static is being confused by the illusions and TP
This is unlikely going to work on static.
he and Justice are taking down Black Panther while Shield and Argus double team Spiderman. Justice can use his shields as a force attack to push BP to where Occult will teleport behind him at which point Occult teleport BP to most smoked filled area of teh amp and TK hold him untill he passes out from teh smoke. Justice starts his attack on Static eventually joined by Richard they then finish Static who can't breach their combined shields or defend against their combined blasts. Shield and Argus together make pretty quick work of Spidey as he won't be able to handle their combined further enhanced stats.
Whats stopping Black panther from teleporting out of the smoke filled area? Or teleporting out the telekentic grip and take Occult out? What is stopping static from clinging either Justice or Richard to the wall through indirect means I have posted above? Also Black panther does have chemical air filters in his vibranium suit so I doubt he is going to pass out (and it has tanked explosions so it heat wont work either)
Or using his hypnotic power Occult could make the unprotected BP and Static think they are each others enemy and while they are fighting each other he and Justice easily finish them off and Join Shield and Argus in four timing Spidey and tehn doing it again to Xravven
Black panther has spider-sense so illusions aren't going to trick him. And his suit being insulated means static can't do anything to him. He can teleport out of static so magnetizing black panther isn't going to do anything either. And thats assuming static can fall for the illusions. He can see thing on ultraviolet scale.
Also worth pointing out is Black panthers energy daggers can turn intangible. What happens when 2 intangible objects connect?
I think with intangible energy daggers he can hurt him.
If not black panther then static can (I will upload scans later)
1. Tracking does not give you long sight of fore vision. Being able to track will not make up for the ability to two of my team to see your future moves. Occult with his clairvoyance. Argus with his ability to see potential outcomes Justice with his aura reading that can see emotion read intend and also help determine what you might do. These are the sense advantages I've been pointing out that you keep ignoring. I've already shown scans of Occult watching time off to the side and of Argus seeing future actions ( but since the second was a small scan here it is again)
He might have been slow in reacting as a novice but with the experience he has now and the plenty of notice he gets he will be well ahead of anyone on your team.
Nor does it compensate for the far more intimate knowledge my team will have on yours courtesy of Occult. Occult after all just knows things
He'd only just met Fate and yet knew many intimate things about him.
I never said that tracer stepped out of the road of the bullets. he clearly stepped in their path to show Spidey they would dodge him. Spidey was even surprised by the act.Clear evidence that the bullets aren't that fast under their own power, so not much of a speed feat.
So I mention speed and you talk about strength??
Also his durability means he can take less air. The scan I showed you of the mountain caved in on him. The girl he pretected was weakening from lack of air yet shield was still exerting himself. Remember he has a healing factor that is up there with Logan's added on. Plus with his strength no web is staying on him long enough to make him pass out.
Let's remember that those spider senses are going to be very busy sensing the more immediate danger of the fire. Plus Doc Occults teleporting power is so fast that he could have the rest of the team present before they even sense the one
Here he teleported from Jared's home to his prison cell, conversed with him and teleported back in time to catch his falling coffee and finish it. I don't see to much chance of you multi teaming me.
Also as for the 45 minutes not being enough to help Justice master his teleport. he managed to teach Jared Stephens in this mili seconds between dropping and catching his coffee. As shown below by the page that follows teh scan above. So 45 minutes wont be a problem. Not that I even need it considering Occults Teleport speed already shown. He can teleport my entire team one at a time and still be all in one position beofore you have your bearings.
Can they do this while in combat? Or are you talking about in terms of prep?
I showed Argus a few scans up doing it in action. Another of my scans form the first post shows him seeing the weaknesses in armor and actually removing it with a single blow, another shows him identifying the power source of a weapon and removing it.
As for Occult, his teleporting is traveling through the astral plane. Which as he did with Superman and Lois allows him to see the past and the future as he is "beside" time. That's why he can teleport so fast and converse with Fate all in such a limited time.
scans of nightwing beating captain boomerang
Nightwing beating Own can only be PIS he is also a speedster. As I said due tot he numbers he lost on that occasion but held out for a while. He has also shown feats of seeing and tracking Flash himself which I have already loaded in the first post showing his senses. All those were one against one, this is one on five and yes of course he eventually lost but he held out a lot longer than anyone other than a speedster could.
Static and black panther don't need the perk. They are all ready protected from TP. Cable could barely read black panther in cable 54, and static has always been extremely high end. The only time I think he has been mind controlled was by the anti-life equation and he shrugged it off.
TP resistence wont help against magical illusions or against Occult's magical hypnosis. Only Xraven and Spidey have that protection. If the illusions were TP based you might have an argument but he also has powers that are magic in nature.
Black panther has spider-sense so illusions aren't going to trick him. And his suit being insulated means static can't do anything to him. He can teleport out of static so magnetizing black panther isn't going to do anything either. And thats assuming static can fall for the illusions. He can see thing on ultraviolet scale.
Unless you have some showing of him being immune to magic all means nothing. The fact that static can't do anything to BP doesn't change the fact that BP is still taking on him and not my team while my team simply wait for him to take him down and then double team him.
Whats stopping Black panther from teleporting out of the smoke filled area? Or teleporting out the telekentic grip and take Occult out? What is stopping static from clinging either Justice or Richard to the wall through indirect means I have posted above? Also Black panther does have chemical air filters in his vibranium suit so I doubt he is going to pass out (and it has tanked explosions so it heat wont work either)
The intimate knowledge Richard will have on them being able to watch their entire history unfold and some of their future. Occult can't change time but he can watch it and know all he needs, all while not even having left for anything more than pico/mili/micro (whatever) seconds. That's part of how he knows more about the man that Phantom Stranger in the scan I posted from the trenchcoat Brigade. He could know how BP's teleporters work and simply TK turn them off or prevent BP from activating his Teleporter. Same thing for the air filters. As for Static how would that work in intangibilty. Plus why is he when he's hypnotised to believe we are his allies?
Also there are different types of intagibility. there is the scientific type where molecular density is altered. Then there is the type where a mystical being is simply in two or more planes at once. Just because one works on itself doesn't mean it will on another.
One last point ( I think I missed it somewhere) you mentioned that BP could teleport your team out to safety. But you yourself said he is also limited to one at a time. So unless he can teleport as fast or faster than Occult then your faced with the same 4 v 1 you said I was.
@jashro44: FYI I just PM'd cadence for a ruling. . I did tell him in PM's pre team build that I wouldn't use any of Occults more recent showings ( which I have - I can't find any of my More fun comics with him in them ATM ) because he might be OP. I have cherry picked those that only show him capable of what he always was but possibly explaining it better. I'm sure in doing so I haven't gone over the limits but Thought I should give him a call out to verify before we go any further.
@jashro44: FYI I just PM'd cadence for a ruling. . I did tell him in PM's pre team build that I wouldn't use any of Occults more recent showings ( which I have - I can't find any of my More fun comics with him in them ATM ) because he might be OP. I have cherry picked those that only show him capable of what he always was but possibly explaining it better. I'm sure in doing so I haven't gone over the limits but Thought I should give him a call out to verify before we go any further.
Just thought you should know.
@CadenceV2 Just so you can find the thread
All right thank you for the heads up. I can't get to your argument at the moment because I have some home work to do and I wont be able to get to it until Thursday (I might be able to tomorrow all though I doubt it), so are you OK with waiting a bit? All though I will clarify something:
So I mention speed and you talk about strength??
I was mainly talking about durability. If Shield is faster then spider-man then I think Spider-man can take his hits long enough to use spider-sense to time when to break his web cartridge to incapacitate Shield if needed like he did to blob. I am not arguing Spiser-man is more durable then Shield just that he is strong enough to take his hit if needed. I will probably go into more detail Thursday (if that is OK with you or if that is before the round ends).
@jashro44: No problem. Also after discussing it in PM with other tourney members though I should point out that Occults clairvoyance doesn't allow him to see vast tracks of future. After all the future isn't set the way the past is. It let's him see what might happen next. As one of the guy's said sort of like Midnighter's battle computer with a magic touch. If I've inferred otherwise that is wholesale wrong
I wont add any more tactics until jashro44 is back tomorrow. But here's a little more to back up my team.
I haven't really put too much up for Justice so far so here goes
His ability to see and read auras can tell him much about people. He can even use touch telepathy with those with either a really pure good or evil aura.
He is fairly intense and full on. Basically the Punisher of the wintergreen dimension who dispenses justice as he sees fit. No qualms at all in character killing or seriously hurting to get information
Since for the purpose of this tourney Cadence's ruling is everything without scientific explanation is magic ( and therefore shielded byt the PSY magic shield perp) his "sword" and shield would fall under this. here are some unusual applications of his shield that would still make it effective.
He's also not without skill in H2H combat. he is after all the best Justice warrior of the wintergreen dimension
Here are examples of his teleporting. Like I said he has absolutely no control having never trained. Almost every instance of his doing so was under stress ( like about to be killed) and complete reflex ( and clearly I can't rely on an ability that he needs to be at deaths door to come into action). In one issue he was about to be killed on Earth and disappears and ends up in the wintergreen dimension at the start of the next. These are from later in that issue.
He teleports back and forth from Earth to the Wintergreen dimension under his own power but with absolutely no control.
It is possible he learned how to control this ability in later appearances / series but since all I've seen was his first 30 odd New Universe issues I will only use what is in them. I have heard he got some Psionic upgrade i wasn't particularly keen to see since it sounded like it ruined a great character.
1. Tracking does not give you long sight of fore vision. Being able to track will not make up for the ability to two of my team to see your future moves. Occult with his clairvoyance. Argus with his ability to see potential outcomes Justice with his aura reading that can see emotion read intend and also help determine what you might do. These are the sense advantages I've been pointing out that you keep ignoring. I've already shown scans of Occult watching time off to the side and of Argus seeing future actions ( but since the second was a small scan here it is again)
He might have been slow in reacting as a novice but with the experience he has now and the plenty of notice he gets he will be well ahead of anyone on your team.
Nor does it compensate for the far more intimate knowledge my team will have on yours courtesy of Occult. Occult after all just knows things
He'd only just met Fate and yet knew many intimate things about him.
All right I think I get what you are saying here. My apologies.
I never said that tracer stepped out of the road of the bullets. he clearly stepped in their path to show Spidey they would dodge him. Spidey was even surprised by the act.Clear evidence that the bullets aren't that fast under their own power, so not much of a speed feat.
All right. Well either way I have scans of spider-man blitzing daredevil (who has been known to deflect gunfire with ease), blitzing kingpin at the speed of sub machine gun fire, and blitzing spider-island villains (Hercules stated that he could see bullets move in slow motion with spider-sense). So I still think he is bullet level speed.
So I mention speed and you talk about strength??
The reason I bring up spider-mans durability is to show he can take a beating from Shield for a while. And his spider-sense helps him with the timing of when to break the web cartridge to incapacitate him
Also his durability means he can take less air. The scan I showed you of the mountain caved in on him. The girl he pretected was weakening from lack of air yet shield was still exerting himself. Remember he has a healing factor that is up there with Logan's added on. Plus with his strength no web is staying on him long enough to make him pass out.
All right. All though I brought up the webbing point to show spider-man can incapacitate him briefly and my team can deal with shield later. And I don't see why the webbing wouldn't hold him. Blob is an 80 tonner. Shield is weaker then him, if it can hold blob it can hold shield.
Let's remember that those spider senses are going to be very busy sensing the more immediate danger of the fire.
The fire is likely going to get put out in an instant. Not only do I have Xravens ice powers but I also have Spider-mans Cryo capsules as well.
Plus Doc Occults teleporting power is so fast that he could have the rest of the team present before they even sense the one
Here he teleported from Jared's home to his prison cell, conversed with him and teleported back in time to catch his falling coffee and finish it. I don't see to much chance of you multi teaming me.
Also as for the 45 minutes not being enough to help Justice master his teleport. he managed to teach Jared Stephens in this mili seconds between dropping and catching his coffee. As shown below by the page that follows teh scan above. So 45 minutes wont be a problem. Not that I even need it considering Occults Teleport speed already shown. He can teleport my entire team one at a time and still be all in one position beofore you have your bearings.
It doesn't look like he caught the coffee to me. Unless I am misreading the scan what is that thing on the ground there?
It looks like he took a cup of coffee from the coffee maker to me.
I showed Argus a few scans up doing it in action. Another of my scans form the first post shows him seeing the weaknesses in armor and actually removing it with a single blow, another shows him identifying the power source of a weapon and removing it.
Does Vibranium have a weakness for him to exploit? The Vibranium suit has tanked all sorts of damage from energy blasts from star dust, to chi amped punches from iron fist.
Nightwing beating Own can only be PIS he is also a speedster. As I said due tot he numbers he lost on that occasion but held out for a while.
Thats my point. Maybe the rouges aren't that well represented out of flash titles? I mean any of them individually can react to the flash moving at his fastest yet the combined group has issues tagging one street leveler? It seems odd to me. I know he was overwhelmed and he lost but shouldn't it have been a lot more one sided? None of the rouges to my knowledge should be having problems with street levelers.
He has also shown feats of seeing and tracking Flash himself which I have already loaded in the first post showing his senses
He reacted to the heat trail of the flash not the flash himself.
Flashes hand seems to be on his shoulder which seems to tell me he didn't even see the flash touch. We also don't know how fast flash was moving at the time.
TP resistence wont help against magical illusions or against Occult's magical hypnosis. Only Xraven and Spidey have that protection. If the illusions were TP based you might have an argument but he also has powers that are magic in nature.
Thing is static can see things on the Ultra violet spectrum. With it he will likely notice the unique energy of black panthers energy daggers. Or the kinetic energy being released from spider-mans web shooters, or Xravens optic blasts. Do these illusions work on a ultra violet spectrum?
Unless you have some showing of him being immune to magic all means nothing. The fact that static can't do anything to BP doesn't change the fact that BP is still taking on him and not my team while my team simply wait for him to take him down and then double team him.
Black panther doesn't need to take on static. If static starts attacking him Black panther can just ignore him and continuing fighting his teams. Every one of statics abilities wont help him against black panther due to the defenses of the vibranium suit.
The intimate knowledge Richard will have on them being able to watch their entire history unfold and some of their future. Occult can't change time but he can watch it and know all he needs, all while not even having left for anything more than pico/mili/micro (whatever) seconds. That's part of how he knows more about the man that Phantom Stranger in the scan I posted from the trenchcoat Brigade. He could know how BP's teleporters work and simply TK turn them off or prevent BP from activating his Teleporter.
Fair point but in order to do this he would need out react black panther. Which is easier said then done since as I said the spider-powers allow black panther to see bullets in slow motion. Hercules was able to do so, so I don't see why black panther wouldn't.
Gallery
Same thing for the air filters.
The air filters don't have an off switch.
As for Static how would that work in intangibilty?
Gallery
Static can turn intangible people tangible.
Also there are different types of intagibility. there is the scientific type where molecular density is altered. Then there is the type where a mystical being is simply in two or more planes at once. Just because one works on itself doesn't mean it will on another.
Do you have evidence that when Occ is on two or more planes his molecular structure is not altered? Has he resisted this ability before?
One last point ( I think I missed it somewhere) you mentioned that BP could teleport your team out to safety. But you yourself said he is also limited to one at a time. So unless he can teleport as fast or faster than Occult then your faced with the same 4 v 1 you said I was.
Well we don't know how many people black panther can teleport in. He has only tried it with one person. He could probably do it with more it just hasn't been tried yet. All though Black panther has two options. He can teleport Xraven in and when Xraven get teleported in he can toss his flash bangs to blind your team (I am guessing this wont work on Argus and Occ?). If it doesn't work on Argus and Occ he can use his freeze powers on them in order to force them on the defense while blasting his optic blasts at Justice. He can match cyclops optic blasts, and he can knock colossus down, he can get through justice fields and eliminate him from the fight.
Or Static could teleport static in first. With statics area of effect your team is going to have issues avoiding this:
I am sure some of your team has ways to counter this but I imagine some of your team will be taken out by this blast. Static has really powerful energy out put
Gallery
I don't think it goes beyond the energy out put limit of this tourny since the limit was iron man who is capable of doing stuff lke this:
Gallery
I don't think static is powerful enough to do any of that.
With the kind of energy out put static has he can do some serious damage to your team.
All right I think I get what you are saying here. My apologies.
No prob's I thought we were just seeing it different
All right. Well either way I have scans of spider-man blitzing daredevil (who has been known to deflect gunfire with ease), blitzing kingpin at the speed of sub machine gun fire, and blitzing spider-island villains (Hercules stated that he could see bullets move in slow motion with spider-sense). So I still think he is bullet level speed.
All right. All though I brought up the webbing point to show spider-man can incapacitate him briefly and my team can deal with shield later. And I don't see why the webbing wouldn't hold him. Blob is an 80 tonner. Shield is weaker then him, if it can hold blob it can hold shield.
All fair enough, my point is none of them have the combined speed, agilty, strength and durability of shield alone, let alone Shield on the venom amp. I would think the senses of Logan alone added to his ability with the speed boost would give him a good chance of dodging the webbing.
The fire is likely going to get put out in an instant. Not only do I have Xravens ice powers but I also have Spider-mans Cryo capsules as well.
Not if it's been mystically enhanced. I doubt the shield adds to their powers to make them counter magic.
It doesn't look like he caught the coffee to me. Unless I am misreading the scan what is that thing on the ground there?
You know I must have read that issue dozens of times and never picked up on that. I always thought the steam you see in the last panel was coming from the same cup of Java he was drinking in the last panel of page 6 ( also showing steam) and we see drop in the first panel of page 7 ( Issue 12 Book of Fate IIRC). Regardless it still shows he can teleport somewhere else and be back in almost no time at all. It only just dawned on me that in the Superman Scan I showed he takes both Superman and Lois into the Astral plane together to show the past. I'm going to say that is potentially PIS because I'm sure in all my Golden Age and All Star / AS Squadron comics he could only teleport one other at a time. Let's just say your argument that you will be four teaming one of my guys isn't holding up.
Does Vibranium have a weakness for him to exploit? The Vibranium suit has tanked all sorts of damage from energy blasts from star dust, to chi amped punches from iron fist.
The actual metal doesn't have to have a weakness if the armor itself does. It could for example have an easy access button. When facing one enemy who had armor that enhanced him he simply saw where to strike to open the armor
There would have to be a way for the armor to be removed and Argus would see that in the course of the battle.
Thats my point. Maybe the rouges aren't that well represented out of flash titles? I mean any of them individually can react to the flash moving at his fastest yet the combined group has issues tagging one street leveler? It seems odd to me. I know he was overwhelmed and he lost but shouldn't it have been a lot more one sided? None of the rouges to my knowledge should be having problems with street levelers.
Firstly the time he faced the rogues was IN a Flash title ( like most of his appearances besides two mini's). Argus was introduced in the Flash title during Bloodlines ( it's the reason he's one of the street levelers I know- I wouldn't if he weren't in a non street leveler title). I also didn't say they had "issues". Like I said he lost, in the end pretty badly beaten actually, but he did manage to hold them long enough for their target ( the Mayor) to get out of the building and get to protection. Even lasting that long against all the rogues IMO is enough to say he can certainly hang with anyone here for an extended battle.
He reacted to the heat trail of the flash not the flash himself.
You'll notice I didn't say reacted. I said saw and tracked, and that is what he did. he and Wally fought together quite a bit . Primarily because Linda (Wally's better half ) would ask Argus for help when Wally was off fighting the big Bad. I doubt anyone else her would even See the Flash at those speeds.
TP resistence wont help against magical illusions or against Occult's magical hypnosis. Only Xraven and Spidey have that protection. If the illusions were TP based you might have an argument but he also has powers that are magic in nature.
Thing is static can see things on the Ultra violet spectrum. With it he will likely notice the unique energy of black panthers energy daggers. Or the kinetic energy being released from spider-mans web shooters, or Xravens optic blasts. Do these illusions work on a ultra violet spectrum?
Unless you have some showing of him being immune to magic all means nothing. The fact that static can't do anything to BP doesn't change the fact that BP is still taking on him and not my team while my team simply wait for him to take him down and then double team him.
Black panther doesn't need to take on static. If static starts attacking him Black panther can just ignore him and continuing fighting his teams. Every one of statics abilities wont help him against black panther due to the defenses of the vibranium suit.
Again not actually addressing all of what they are facing. Remember Occult has "mystical hypnosis". To say static will see through illusions that his own brain is perceiving not his "senses" is highly unlikely. Neither of these two have the mystical shield. So BP will face Static because as far as he's concerned Static will be one of my team. his own subconscious will tell him that. Hypnosis can make the subconscious see yourself as something else seeing others as something different wont be hard.
Fair point but in order to do this he would need out react black panther. Which is easier said then done since as I said the spider-powers allow black panther to see bullets in slow motion. Hercules was able to do so, so I don't see why black panther wouldn't.
Not a problem if BP is fighting and reacting to phantoms of his own subconscious courtesy of mystical hypnosis now is it??
The air filters don't have an off switch.
Than he TK blocks them to KO BP
Static can turn intangible people tangible.
Not on a magical based intangibility and I have seen plenty of instances where the tricks used to make scientific phasers solid don't work on magical phasers. But no I can't think of an instance for occult to back that up ATM ( I'll keep looking though).
As for your last attack, No I don't think it would work on Argus and Occult. I would however argue that both of them with their for sight would have enough of a heads, that combined with the TP link my team has and my teams speed would ensure it was unsuccessful.
Just wanted to briefly answer a question asked by both debaters.
Black Panther's Vibranium Weave suit is weak along the seams like any other woven item but you would still need some precision strikes and a strong blade.
I don't see how my comment cheats anyone, both of you can address it. I posted it without bias and without posting my own thoughts on the battle at hand. You can both attempt to use the information to your advantage. Neither combatant really had an answer to this question and there is an answer so answering the question does nothing but add a potential conclusion to an argument. If you were both debating on which is better chocolate or vanilla and you both claimed that you were both unsure as to which melted faster and I told you, it would not ultimately change the debate. You would still need to prove that the melting rate of each is important to the debate. In this way, you would have to prove that you have the ability to do the job and he would have to disprove that you have the ability to do the job.
I don't see how my comment cheats anyone, both of you can address it. I posted it without bias and without posting my own thoughts on the battle at hand. You can both attempt to use the information to your advantage. Neither combatant really had an answer to this question and there is an answer so answering the question does nothing but add a potential conclusion to an argument. If you were both debating on which is better chocolate or vanilla and you both claimed that you were both unsure as to which melted faster and I told you, it would not ultimately change the debate. You would still need to prove that the melting rate of each is important to the debate. In this way, you would have to prove that you have the ability to do the job and he would have to disprove that you have the ability to do the job.
As a compromise, I'll put spoiler tags around it.
It's best not to try to interject arguments unless someone asks for a clarification on powers or abilities, as it's the debater's place to figure out ways to beat the other.
Not sure if it's kosher for other competitors to vote, so if it isn't don't count it, I felt like Jashro's arguments were cleaner and better, despite beatboks doing a good job.
@Dredeuced: I agree completely but Jashro44 clearly asks whether or not Black Panther's suit has a weakness to exploit. Both people were operating on information in which they were both unsure. Providing information for them to make more solid arguments is better than allowing them to both be weakened by unsupported arguments.
I'll wait till voting has been officially commenced to post my thoughts on the topic.
That said, I vote jashro44 on this one ... but kudos to beatboks for going in there with less known characters. Very well rounded debating skills in that regard.
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