High Tier TRNY: PrecrisisBardock VS SirFizzWhizz(VOTE)

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Jgames

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said:

@jgames: Thanks for the vote, but how did I wank anything? I was holding back and everything I said was backed up with concrete.

You wank so hard.

Still surprise your getting votes too. I am losing so much faith in the newer users on this site.

To be fair you did an amazing job for the most part, is just that it felt like you didn't took him serious at times. I mean you had an option to have a closing, but did not feel like it simply bc you were confident that you made valid point and that Bardock only made horrible points. It seem you were so focus on some of his bad argument that you did not focus on some of his valid points.

@precrisisbardock: To be honest you did hold yourself back by saying kid goku is lightning timer instead of light speed, so proud of you XD. Also I am suprised I saw nothing mentioning SS4 Gogeta as a galaxy buster. I mean granted some of the speed feat is not reliable, especially Burter being FTL, which is a bad translation. Either way you did made some good points about Gogeta firepower overall and had enough valid feat to show he is FTL.

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GhostRavage

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#107  Edited By GhostRavage

Both SirFizz and PreCrisis need to be more like me, right @lukehero? :P

On a serious note, even though i'm no such a huge fan of DBZ, i was partially following this CaV because i knew it would have turned heated for obvious reasons. That said, i did not agree with several points PreCrisisBardock was attempting to get through and even though he sustained the tone down way more than Cadence, the latter actually attacked his points where he should, even though he seemed to lowball quite a bit, as always. Moreover, Power Scaling outside of DBZ is obnoxiously broken and it's inexplicably hard to be taken as legit, and i would like to make emphasis here. Power Scaling is not reliable as most of Dragon Ball characters haven't even reached feat-wise the supposed power level power scaling suggests.

Either way, my vote goes to @sirfizzwhizz. To be fair @precrisisbardock needs to be polished, you need to read more CaVs from people who is universally acclaimed to be the elite here, not because they are actually "the elite" users of the vine, which is not true, but the fact most of them have actually earned said hype by making very insightful and original debates. If anything, Bardock went against a veteran and lost because he didn't have the experience, not exactly because his team wasn't capable of pulling the win.

Could have gone better, i'll be keeping an eye on you Bardock. Good luck next time.

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mickey-mouse

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#109  Edited By mickey-mouse
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vvoodst0ck

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@lukehero my phone is somehow glitching out with the spoilers :o

Is this the last day for voting? If it is I'm terribly sorry.

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Mr_NoFunAllowed

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#111  Edited By Mr_NoFunAllowed

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to throw in any votes, but I'll vote for @sirfizzwhizz.

He proved the team was more versatile, and provided many ways to deal with Gogeta.

Also, it sorta irks me that Bardock didn't really have more than 1 way to deal with whizz's team. And I think whizz constantly pushed him down

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mickey-mouse

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@mr_nofunallowed: Thank you for your vote.

@vvoodst0ck: TBH I don't count votes from people with low post counts. I didn't want to offend you on any personal level though. So I just bypass the vote as I am counting it up. Post count isn't the end all be all, but I hope you understand we on the vine have a healthy suspicion of voters with only a few posts. For the record it needs to be around 300 or more posts.

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MasterKungFu

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idk who to vote for. lukehero had to make talks about following the rules especially with prep and the amount of knowledge presented.

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vvoodst0ck

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@lukehero said:

@mr_nofunallowed: Thank you for your vote.

@vvoodst0ck: TBH I don't count votes from people with low post counts. I didn't want to offend you on any personal level though. So I just bypass the vote as I am counting it up. Post count isn't the end all be all, but I hope you understand we on the vine have a healthy suspicion of voters with only a few posts. For the record it needs to be around 300 or more posts.

Oh, I only recently made an account, but I get what you're saying. Well if I reach the requirement by the deadline I'll be sure to come back! Thanks for responding though and not just ignoring me. :)

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sirfizzwhizz

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#115  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

@masterkungfu said:

idk who to vote for. lukehero had to make talks about following the rules especially with prep and the amount of knowledge presented.

i followed the rules, as Luke said. Precrisis was whining about my in rules prep alot. However Gogeta being stated as a casual galaxy buster in post #36 did not stay in rules >_>

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mickey-mouse

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mr_ingenuity

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#117 mr_ingenuity  Moderator

Both were extremes at opposite ends of the spectrum and because of that there was no middle ground.

SirFizzWhizz has an aggressive style of debating understandable won't fault him there if he has the proper reasoning. Moving on to strategy he did flesh it out while making use of every characters versatility & hit some major points. With that he did take the time to counter even though he ignored entire portions of his opponents debate. Which is low balling and shouldn't be apart of any style of debate.

PreCrisisBardock style was calculations and scale which has very little balance on this site. I read through the ones posted to be a reasonable voter but non of them convinced me of what they were trying to prove. Far as strategy is concerned PreCrisisBardock had a scorch the earth tacit destroying everything an everyone before anyone knew there was a fight. So debating Gogeta is faster has the fire power and most effective attack is what he need to prove. The problem he had this strategy without me being unreasonable is intangibility and tele-dismemberment, which he didn't attempt to counter. Even if I concluded numbers are not a problem, all it takes is one intangible opponent to use this tactic and that would be the end of it (Spawn).

So in the end SirFizzWhizz has my vote.

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Speedster101

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@sirfizzzwhizzz@precrisisbardock@lukehero Voting time!

Ok, so my breakdown is going to be a bit lengthy due to the fact that I feel no matter who I vote for I'm going to either be called a DBZ wanker or tagged a million times about how the things I said actually were addressed. Hopefully my breakdown is satisfactory. BTW I will be emulating a voting/grading style I saw (I think It was yours Lukehero?).

1. Presentation -

Fizz: C

PCB: B

Now, I don't think either of you have necessarily strong formatting, and while that isn't as important it is something to look at, but PCB's was better imo. I will say PCB demeanor (I'm sorry dude you were kinda jerk) hurt him here imo. Now I'm not bringing him down because I don't like his personality, but his aggressive demeanor turned to some lowballing (to be fair I think some of what PCB claims is lowballing really isn't.).

2. Counters -

Fizz: B

PCB: C

I know what everyone's going to say "Fizz didn't counter ALL the speed feats", I didn't feel he needed to because he semi-addressed speed in general with his prep. And I don't think PCB effectively countered Spawn here.

Now, I also don't think ALL of Fizz's lowballing is unjustified calcs and scaling is very unreliable, tbh I didn't buy most of PCB's arguments that included these elaborate chain logics and calcs. I think the DBZ fans were to outraged to notice that PCB spoke about many of Fizz's characters without any knowledge on them either and lowballed a lot of the Invincible verse.

Over all though I wasn't a fan of the one sentences to counter whole paragraphs.

3. Points/ Arguments -

Fizz: A

PCB: B

Both of you made good use of your prep and had solid plans. I think PCB's was I little bit less thought out, but I think that's because it didn't have to be. Though I think Fizz's more properly complimented the challenge at hand, thus he edged out PCB.

Overall, SirFizzWhizz wins! Good job bro, but work on the attitude ;)

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mickey-mouse

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Speedster101

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@lukehero: was that you who I was emulating? I think it was xD

And no problem my friend :)

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darkseid1006

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@lukehero: okay so i give my vote to @sirfizzwhizz, @precrisisbardock did a reasonable job but his strategy revolved around blitz/power whereas i felt Fiz's more versatile use of prep (with Ult Reed who is very difficult to defend against) more than adequately countered his points and i just got a better feel from Fizz's argument to be honest

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mickey-mouse

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Speedster101

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Oh hey PCB, I meant to say Fizz's demeanor brought him down, not yours.

Can't edit it cause I'm on hand held but haut letting you know. (It doesn't affect anything I'm still voting for Fizz, im just saying since PCB's been PMing me 7+ paragraphs at a time saying my votes wrong, so I wanted to let him know).

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PreCrisisBardock

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@speedster101: I never said your vote was wrong, I just asked a question lol. To which you said you didn't feel like answering.

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Speedster101

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@precrisisbardock: Well... Your question was apparently 7+ paragraphs.

Which I really didn't have time to read considering the reason my vote was so in depth was so that I wouldn't get argued with or called a fanboy.

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PreCrisisBardock

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Speedster101

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DeathHero61

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#131  Edited By DeathHero61

@sirfizzwhizz: @precrisisbardock: @lukehero:

PCB already had me disagreeing with him as soon as he started.

  • Regardless of King Kai keeping tabs on the fight itself, its not like he can perceive the precise exact details of said fight. Its the same thing with the example he showed in regards to invincible. Us humans can watch a jet fly by but if a human moved at those exact speeds it would be a blur at the bare minimum to us.
  • Kid Goku is not as fast as lightning, among everything stated in DBZ that is legitimately hyperbole. Kid goku is hypersonic.
  • What SFW did in regards to Goku's strength wasn't lowballing. Goku consistently shows this level of strength, the strength PCB is trying to give Gogeta is silly. Because there is clear split durability in the DBZ universe. Because the consistency between physical and non-physical durability is not there.
  • Why the heck would Goku and Vegeta fuse? Vegeta never seemed into it consistently. And only gave in when the foe they were going at was impossibly strong like with Buu or with Omega Shenron i believe it was? It seems like a last ditch effort plan which i doubt they would be able to get a chance to use with the way this battle would seem to play out.

My man will be above and behind your entire team from the beginning of the match and will blast the whole battlefield with a Multi-Solar system busting attack, which will destroy everything except the mountain. You wouldn't have time to put up the shield because you aren't fast enough.

He clearly said that he would use the prep time he has to build the shield. Speed has no relevance to prep..........

Lightning speeds is Kid Goku level stuff. Your "Perfect Bodyguard" is on par with Kid Goku.

Said bodyguard is apparently on par if not far better than super suit thor.......... so i am really wondering where you are going with this considering his level of power.......

To add:

  • You used SSJ multipliers which is by far the worst way to gauge a DBZ character.
  • Akira Toriyama never stated Cell can bust solar systems. Daizenshuu did. Akira>>>>>>>>Daizenshuu. Akira didn't write them, he approved of their existence. That's all.

Read my post. Post 197

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/debunk-a-feat-dbz-mangaanime-730592/?page=4

As for the frieza punch thing, that is getting really old, i'll quote myself from another thread:

Striking Strength

The DBZ striking strength level at the very least is either city level or continent, level and this is simply me being speculative. They barely have striking feats. The whole goku punching frieza thing got old. Really old. Tanking non-physical attacks and tanking physical attacks actually happen to be different things.Punches from some people in real life can be calculated to have the force of a train. But would it truly be the same? No, destructive force, power, and mass are all completely different. People say goku can destroy planets in his base form with his punches alone. Thats ridiculous. He punched a small hole in king kai's planet in ssj3 form and king kai's planet is smaller than my neighborhood. So you basically have 10 of those neighborhood's compacted into a small planet. Thats what ten times gravity can essentially mean. Let me repeat this. Lets get some clay. I make an orb of clay similar to a sphere. Out of a small amount of clay. Some guy next to me, grabs a far bigger amount of clay and builds a clay sphere of the exact same size except he used more clay to refine its shape. Which one is more denser, harder and heavier? Mine's or his? His obviously. Its more dense and has more weight. If i somehow threw a feather at you at high speeds and i did the same for a pebble. Which would hurt more? The pebble. It has higher levels of mass and weight.

I'm no physicist so i want you to read up on this:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070926160331AABl5eu

And here is the thing. People say that goku can split multiple planets with one punch right? How does the people he fight contain the shockwave of the punch? The whole thing about Z fighters controlling their ki so they don't destroy the planet cannot be used. Because simply waving your own hand can produce wind. With enough force by anything wind can turn into a shockwave. If DBZ characters are launching those kind of punches simply throwing their punches would shatter the planet. It doesn't matter how physically durable you are. If the person who punches you can tear planets apart, there is no way the surrounding area around you, would still be intact. Even attack potency is hard to gauge in DBZ because even if absorb enough of the impact(said impact being enough to destroy the planet) There should at least be some collateral damage, or high level shockwaves.

In regards to him quoting Etheral Dreams on striking strength here is yet again another quote from moi:

Lets look at it this way. I got hit by a freaking car, i survive but im disabled for a while. But in a separate scenario you a regular human with no physical training managed to land a good punch on me square in the gut. Is it the same force? Is it the same mass? Same destructive capabilities? Not really. Durability,Pain Tolerance etc. Remember that whole Juvia vs Croc debate? Go back to what i said about superman. Superman can survive supernovas of course, but can potentially get one shot by planet busting+ forces if he constantly takes them quickly. How much you MENTALLY can take and how much your body can truly take PHYSICALLY are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Look at usopp of OP or Deadpool of Marvel? They logically speaking shouldn't be up from a single hit they take. Its their pain intolerance and endurance that allows them to keep going(and partially wade's healing factor but you should get the point.) There is a difference between stunned and knocked out, and knocked out and killed. Its hard to explain but you get the point.

Honestly, whenever someone says that Striking Strength when enhanced with ki can equal someone's full power energy blast, i consider that false due to clear differences in when someone in DBZ shoots a blast and throw a punch. Its clear that when a DBZ character shoots out ki he is pouring in everything from his body and is using all their strength to push it out. To enhance one's strike with KI, it only takes a little effort and it wouldn't push out as much energy as an energy blast would even when throwing around full effort. You can clearly see the difference in effort. If the amount of Ki they blast out is equivalent to the amount of ki they can use to enhance themselves then they wouldn't need ki blast since enhancing their strikes is so much freaking easier. As clearly evident of the series.(Translation: If punches equaled the force of Ki there would be no need to punch opponents. Or vice versa with Ki.)

Punches have nothing to do with AOE much. The fist was a small concentrated area. Focusing energy into a fist would take less energy to empower but at the same time it would be impossible to maximize effort like Ki users would when shooting out energy blasts which legit pushes the ki out of the body.

Basically if Ki was equal to everything, then a user of ki wouldn't have to waste it in order to blast an opponent they could save it to further boost their own stats to gain an edge.

As for SFW you had a solid argument but you were underestimating your opponent a lot, if it wasn't for your well thought out strategy i would have immediately gave the vote to PCB. I see a reflection of myself when i saw you debate. Confidence but at the same time arrogance. Hostility. I try to control it sometimes but you didn't seem to do so at all. Although there are "fan opinions" for DBZ some of them make sense some of them are ridiculous. You could say the same for One Piece or Naruto then again there are things that back it up in those series. However, you extremely underestimated Goku's speed. Gotenks who goku is stronger than by miles at this point of the franchise, can travel around the world several times easily in seconds. Goku in his base form traveled across half the planet in only a second or two. His raw speed is probably a lot more impressive than your crew.

I nearly gave PCB the vote for at the very least attempting to solidify his claims. But i took it away since his main argument was speed blizting. And his response to nearly most of what SFW said felt like it was geared towards speed blitzing. SFW's strategy was pretty well thought out. It didn't have many flaws aside from the power difference which i don't think really mattered since Gogeta wasn't as powerful as PCB claimed he was.

Some say i have an incredible bias towards DBZ so @lukehero if you don't want to count my vote i would perfectly understand.

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Jgames

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#132  Edited By Jgames

@deathhero61: PCB is using composite version in which they actually did train goku to be faster than lightning

Loading Video...

Granted PCB did not show the video, although that probably bc this was one of the few things Whizz did not refute, or simply ignore. Granted he did debunk most of his other speed feat.

Also did not knew people call you bias toward DBZ lol.

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DeathHero61

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@jgames: First off this is an extreme outlier considering the consistent scale of a different level of speed was shown beforehand and afterwords. Second off, look at how goku is avoiding the lightning. he overall reacted to the lightning strike but he didn't move faster than the lightning strike. Look at how its coming down. And look very closely to the scene after words. The first initial strike fell down and then after the lightning struck, the blast itself followed goku. That's not the same since we do not know the speed of the lightning moving across the ground.If he dodged the initial strike that would be impressive but he didn't.

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PreCrisisBardock

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@jgames: Hm? Fizz debunked a Speed Feat, not most...

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Jgames

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@jgames: First off this is an extreme outlier considering the consistent scale of a different level of speed was shown beforehand and afterwords. Second off, look at how goku is avoiding the lightning. he overall reacted to the lightning strike but he didn't move faster than the lightning strike. Look at how its coming down. And look very closely to the scene after words. The first initial strike fell down and then after the lightning struck, the blast itself followed goku. That's not the same since we do not know the speed of the lightning moving across the ground.If he dodged the initial strike that would be impressive but he didn't.

Well this is not a place to argue over the speed, but he already knew where the lightning was before it struck the ground. Plus the episode was literally call Quicker than Lightning, but whatever again this is not the place to argue over it.

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Wyldsong

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This one was doozy to read. A lot of back forth, calling things into question, excitement, drama, so forth and so on.

I have to give my vote to @sirfizzwhizz in this one. He had the more versatile team, with a more detailed plan, and in the end, phasing and tele-dismemberment make for a compelling winning end game and is exceedingly difficult to argue against.

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sirfizzwhizz

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mickey-mouse

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those_eyes

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Damn this was a good debate.

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Speedster101

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@those_eyes: agree, but the salt and the debating after the match ruined it for me :/

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Ratava

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i vote for @sirfizzwhizz

PCB was using to much a>b>c>d logic without solid proof, especially the comparsion between sensing a space-ship with set destination and a combat scenario + i didnt see a good counter to spawn or a counter at all regarding his phasing/intang.

SFW teams versatility and prep (especially with UR) simply was better

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mickey-mouse

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