High Tier Team Tournament (SIGN UPS OPEN)

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DarkRaiden

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@dedmanwalkin: I have ;)

@darkRaiden: after her totem started working she only got animal powers and couldn't do things like punch holes through amazo

@higorm: storm can be a 3

@van_cere: fine, darkseid can be an 8.

Yeah but....She still has over 70 ton strength, took a bloodlusted punch from Superman, and can hurt the likes of Despero. She's at least a 3. And lol at Darkseid being an 8.

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HigorM

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#102 HigorM  Moderator
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FirestormFate1919

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I have to agree with Darkraiden about both Darkseid and Vixen. Vixen would destroy any street leveler with absolute ease, and Darkseid would kill everyone on the JLA (probably including Wally West).

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hmm im going to retcon my team. I can make a better one

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AgentGhostRider

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Sign me up

Ghost Rider- 20 Points

Mjolnir – 4 points

Superman Strength – 4 points (What Version? Nw 52 or Strongest Incarnation?)

DeadPool Healing Factor - 2 points (Can it stack with previous Healing Factors?)

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#@thenewbluebeetle007:

my new team

Darth Nihilus (8)

Drakath -no Prime mode- (5)

Gravelyn (3)

Artix (3)

Perfect team work and full knowledge (9)

15 minutes prep (2)

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those_eyes

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I have to agree with Darkraiden about both Darkseid and Vixen. Vixen would destroy any street leveler with absolute ease, and Darkseid would kill everyone on the JLA (probably including Wally West).

lol

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FirestormFate1919

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@those_eyes: I'm fully prepared to make that case if needed. Darkseid would kill Wally. I've got dozens of scans were Darkseid does things that would blow the JLA out of the water, including West. Speed doesn't matter when you can't die and can effortlessly vaporize solar systems. The feats where Darkseid (otherwise here known as Jobberseid) loses to people like Superman, Doomsday, and stairs were explained to be Desaad impersonating him. Desaad used Technology to mimic his abilities and maintain his role while the real Darkseid was absent. However, this Tech wasn't anywhere near Darkseid's actual abilities. Most of the fights he has aren't even him, but an Avatar. He is an energy being who controls the Omega Force, which has hurt the Spectre and consumed a solar system. He has dozens of physical forms who maintain roles in dozens of places. Even the Avatar's who are far weaker can pretty effortlessly destroy Superman and much of the JLA. Here are the Desaad impersonation and Avatar scans that prove his low showings were not his doing.

No Caption Provided

As you can see, all his low showings were because Desaad tried to impersonate him. This includes losing to Doomsday, Dr Fate, Superman, the JLA, and many more.

No Caption Provided

Desaad once again mimics Darkseid's appearance and abilities to a FAR lesser degree.

No Caption Provided

He again tries to mimic Darkseid . As you can see from the people's reactions and Orion's dialogue he has been posing in that position for many years.

No Caption Provided

Here he explains his Avatar's, which account for a couple other low showings. Even his Avatar's dwarf most of the JLA in power, and they process a mere fraction of his true power. Also, "Nearly Infinite Power".

No Caption Provided

"One Aspect of my Omnipotent Self". I'm pretty sure omnipotent puts him above these limits. He also explains the Avatar's further.

I have many more scans if anyone still doubts that Darkseid is over these limits. These are to account for the low showings that to often plague his power levels on the battle forums. I also have scans to demonstrate this power I keep talking about. If anyone wants them, just ask. @van_cere: I thought I'd tag you as well in case you still want to make a case for Darkseid being an 8.

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CosmicDude

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@cosmicdude: no biggie. After further review forges abilities out him at the street level limit. He's got minimal combat experience and is only useful with prep; so I think that fixes the issue

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Team TTBA | Binary Sunset V2.0

After CosmicDude pointed out I did some math wrong I decided to re-edit and re-justify my team!

Roster - 16 Points Spent

  • Cyborg Superman (8)
  • Forge (1)
  • Maddison Jefferies (3)
  • Mirror Master / McCulloch (3)
  • Vril Dox w/NO GEAR (1)

Perks - 14 Points Spent

  • Full Knowledge & Perfect Teamwork (9)
  • Tony Stark Brainpower & 2 Days of Prep in Stark Tower (5)

Team Justifications

  • Cyborg Superman is only worth 8 points considering he can not solo the Justice League. He's been beaten by Superman in the past and only really whooped him when he had the Yellow Power Rings during the Sinestro Corps War. He would perchance be able to beat Arthur, Hal, Diana and Bruce on a good day but should be stopped by J'onn and Superman if they're fighting to the best of their abilities.
  • Forge is only worth 1 point considering he's got practically zero combat feats. I've been reading through all of his appearances and his best feat thus far has been tackling Wolverine, he didn't KO him or anything, just tackled him. His main mutant power makes him an engineering anomaly but don't put him anything above Street Level.
  • Maddison Jefferies is worth 3 points considering he isn't an Omega Level Mutant but he's better than Street Tier. He's basically an elemental manipulator but trade the elements for technology, glass and plastic. He fits the criteria of not fitting the criteria, thus 3 points seems the most appropriate.
  • Mirror Master is only worth 3 points. His gear puts him above street level but MMH would be able to mentally dominate the dickens out of him in a fight thus he isn't on Justice League levels.
  • Vril Dox is at 1 point because Beatboks used him on his team for Sightless's Gear Tournament and the limits were as follows. Also he won't have any of his crazy force field gear or anything of the such.
No Caption Provided

If anyone has any qualms with my team point values then feel free to inform me; Cosmic realized I did some math wrong and let me know (thanks for that btw) so if anyone else notices anything feel free to tag me and we can discuss it.

It seems that I currently have room for 1 more point; so I'll try and spend that soon!

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those_eyes

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@firestormfate1919: what about the speed steal argument people like to make for Wally? Im not saying wally would beat darkseid but alot of people think wally could solo the leauge and darkseid if he wanted to.

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ssj_god

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@ssj_god said:

@thetruebarryallen:

i think mirror master is taken by deadman

There's a difference; Dedman has Scudder (the original) while I have McCulloch (the second Mirror Master) plus my original team was made before Dedman's and had McCulloch on it :)

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ssj_god

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#115  Edited By ssj_god

@ssj_god said:

@thetruebarryallen:

i think mirror master is taken by deadman

There's a difference; Dedman has Scudder (the original) while I have McCulloch (the second Mirror Master) plus my original team was made before Dedman's and had McCulloch on it :)

ohh ok. :)

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FirestormFate1919

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@those_eyes: You can't steal speed from energy. Energy doesn't have momentum persay, but rather a perception of movement. Darkseid at his core is the embodiment of a limitless power, the Omega. His physical form is but a corporeal state that he chooses. He could steal speed from all the Avatars he wanted. Darkseids true untouchable form could blow up that entire solar system from another plane of reality. He could also send a thousand JLA-busting forms to take him down. Once the planet in question is gone, Flash can't do much. The thing about Darkseid is, he's just about impossible to kill. Not even the Spectre could get rid of him for good. Orion didn't even kill him, and he was basically destined to. The only person that can kill him is a being with direct embodiment to the Source. That's only the Source itself, Takion, possibly Highfather, the Presence itself, or maybe Wiphite Lantern Kyle Rayner (although he would need to get a lot more experience with being the Source conduit). It's arguable that a being like Spectre has the power required, but anyone who's not above Skyfather-level is going to need a lot more firepower. Darkseid has stated he could kill the entire JLA whenever he wanted to. He just doesn't want to.

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FirestormFate1919

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@thetruebarryallen: You should probably put restrains on Vril Dox. Some of the things he can do are not street level by any extent of the imagination. For example the takion containment shouldn't be regarded as standard given it can hold Waverider. Also his force field can tank Yellow Lantern blasts, Lobo, Black Lantern blasts, and something that was exponentially more powerful than a nuke. Some of his technology is a bit OP, but he is fine aside from that.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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FirestormFate1919

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@thetruebarryallen: Cool. It's not a problem either way. With prep he could replicate any of that within little time regardless.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: Cool. It's not a problem either way. With prep he could replicate any of that within little time regardless.

Exactly haha; I just need him to classify as Street so he costs less.

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Jacthripper

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Got my team so far

Composite Ultron (8)

Captain Cold (1)

The Maker (1)

Bleeding Edge Armor (3)

2 Days of Prep with Stark Tower (5)

Hank Pym (3)

Perfect Teamwork and Full Knowledge (9)

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ssj_god

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@jacthripper:

won't ultron be considered as team buster?! o.O

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Got my team so far

Composite Ultron (8)

Captain Cold (1)

The Maker (1)

Bleeding Edge Armor (3)

2 Days of Prep with Stark Tower (5)

Hank Pym (3)

Perfect Teamwork and Full Knowledge (9)

Ultron might be a 20 from the way I've seen him represented on the forums; especially a composite version.

As for Cold; he ain't street. His tech puts him above that IMHO.

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Jacthripper

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@ssj_god: Well, by that line of logic, Ultron should be able to defeat the Pre-52 Justice League without Wally, correct? I'll create the thread and we'll see how it swings. :P

Anyways, he actually could be considered a 5 because he can't even bust a planet, nor is he hypersonic, nor can he transmute matter, but I have him at 8 because I'm nice.

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ssj_god

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@ssj_god: Well, by that line of logic, Ultron should be able to defeat the Pre-52 Justice League without Wally, correct? I'll create the thread and we'll see how it swings. :P

Anyways, he actually could be considered a 5 because he can't even bust a planet, nor is he hypersonic, nor can he transmute matter, but I have him at 8 because I'm nice.

sure do

Anyways, he actually could be considered a 5 because he can't even bust a planet, nor is he hypersonic, nor can he transmute matter, but I have him at 8 because I'm nice.

yeah.. clearly -_-

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Jacthripper

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@thetruebarryallen: I thought you would say that about cold, I'll drop him in favor Jade Chan (T-Girl). As for Ultron, having represented him in the past, he has a major weakness in that he has rather few speed feats. Arguably a morals off Superman could solo him. People often overrated him because of the AoU incident, forgetting he was Oneshotted by Kang in the next scan.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: I thought you would say that about cold, I'll drop him in favor Jade Chan (T-Girl). As for Ultron, having represented him in the past, he has a major weakness in that he has rather few speed feats. Arguably a morals off Superman could solo him. People often overrated him because of the AoU incident, forgetting he was Oneshotted by Kang in the next scan.

HAhaha; plus I think TNBB has him on his team anyways.

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Jacthripper

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#128  Edited By Jacthripper

@thenewbluebeetle007: Updated Team

Composite Ultron (20)

The Maker (1)

2 Days Prep w/ Stark (5)

Hank Pym (3)

Lelouch Vi Brittania (1)

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@thenewbluebeetle007

Sorry I have realy bad indecision and im not going to use half my team as characters no one knows so, Final team, for real this time

Darth Nihilus (8)

Drakath -no prime mode- (5)

Darth Zannah (3)

Darth Bane (3)

Full team work and knowledge (9)

15 minutes prep (2)

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ssj_god

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justicethorpsylocke

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Updated Team

Composite Ultron (20)

The Maker (1)

2 Days Prep w/ Stark (5)

Hank Pym (3)

Lelouch Vi Brittania (1)

Ehem, excuse my ignorance, but by "The Maker" would you be referring to 1610 Reed?

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DedmanWalkin

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Making some alterations.

All Your Team Are Belong To Me

  • (5) Sam Scudder
  • (3) Alison Blaire
  • (3) Hartley Rathaway
  • (1) Tomi Shishido

Perks

  • (9) Perfect Teamwork and Full Knowledge
  • (7) Black Bolt Package
  • (2) 15 Minutes Prep

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thatguywithheadphones

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@thenewbluebeetle007:

No Caption Provided

  • Sue Storm(-3)(-Full Superman Package (for one character, no Kryptonite weakness or speed - 9 points)
  • Morals Off - 6 points (*note - morals off cannot amp you in any way - for example you can't claim Fernus for morals off MMH)
  • Immune to Molecular Manipulation/BFR/TP/Magic (choose one) – 6 points
  • Mjolnir (-4)

cool?

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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DedmanWalkin

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deactivated-59d945143d79a

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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Okay, here's what I got so far. If there is an issue with your team, I will have commented in bold.

@thatguywithheadphones:

  • Sue Storm (3)
  • Kryptonian Physiology (no speed or Kryptonite weakness) (9)
  • Morals Off (6)
  • Immune to telepathy (6)
  • Mjolnir (4)

(glad to see you're not, you know, blind)

@dedmanwalkin:

  • (5) Sam Scudder
  • (3) Alison Blaire
  • (3) Hartley Rathaway
  • (1) Tomi Shishido
  • (9) Perfect Teamwork and Full Knowledge
  • (7) Black Bolt Package
  • (2) 15 Minutes Prep

@jacthripper:

  • Composite Ultron (20)
  • The Maker (1)
  • 2 Days Prep w/ Stark (5)
  • Hank Pym (3)
  • Lelouch Vi Brittania (1)

@banthabot:

  • Darth Nihilus (8)
  • Drakath -no prime mode- (5)
  • Darth Zannah (3)
  • Darth Bane (3)
  • Full team work and knowledge (9)
  • 15 minutes prep (2)

@thetruebarryallen:

Roster - 16 Points Spent

  • Cyborg Superman (8)
  • Forge (1)
  • Maddison Jefferies (3)
  • Mirror Master / McCulloch (3)
  • Vril Dox w/NO GEAR (1)

Perks - 14 Points Spent

  • Full Knowledge & Perfect Teamwork (9)
  • Tony Stark Brainpower & 2 Days of Prep in Stark Tower (5)

Brainiac flew through a sun and made it explode, dude.

@agentghostrider:

  • Ghost Rider- 20 Points

  • Mjolnir – 4 points
  • Superman Strength – 4 points (What Version? Nw 52 or Strongest Incarnation?) (standard Pre/Nu 52)
  • DeadPool Healing Factor - 2 points (Can it stack with previous Healing Factors?) (yes)

@higorm:

16 points

  • One fifth of the Phoenix Force as seen in AvX - Cyclops

3 points

  • Character not described in any of the criteria – Storm

1 point

Street Level Character (be reasonable) – Cable

8 points

  • Omega Level Mutant – Iceman

2 points

  • 15 minutes prep

*you have to buy Cyclops separately. You can, however, give the Phoenix Force to any of your other 3 team members*

@baron_von_santa:

  • 8 points for Post Crisis Darkseid.
  • 8 points for New 52 Infinity Man.
  • 6 for Molecular immunity.
  • 8 points for New 52 MMH.

Darkseid needs to be a 20.

@pacpanda:

  • 10 Points: I choose the battleground
  • 6(2) Points: FTL Characters: MMSF Megaman and MMSF Rogue
  • 6 Points: Morals Off

@darkseid1006:

Characters-

Berserker (Fate/zero)- 3 points/1 point (please check for me) + 1 street level (undecided)

Perks-

  • Deadpool healing-2 points
  • Creation blades- 6 points
  • Orange lantern ring- 8 points
  • Battlefield- 10 points

I know nothing of Berserker. The criteria I generally use for street level is that Black Panther has to be able to give them a good fight.

@firestormfate1919:

Dr Fate (8) - No Nabu or Nelson

Composite Elseworlds Superman (8) - This pretty much just refers to various Elseworlds' stories involving Superman. KC, Red Son, Earth 16 (Post Crisis Variation), Earth 13, Earth 32, All Star, and Injustice are the only versions I plan on using. I'll notify you if I decide to try anything else.

Creation Blades (6)

15 Minutes of Prep (2)

Mr Miracle (1) - No Anti-Life Equation/High Tier stuff; just the peak human escape artist with lots of technology. I'll even make him the version after Scott Free (the human one) if anyone's worried about that.

Artemis (1)

Atom 1 Million (3)

Injustice Raven (1) - She is featless except for dimensional travel. The most impressive combat feat she's had is getting punked by Constantine (another words nothing above street level). I only want her for one reason, and that ability does not break these constraints. I won't use any feats outside Injustice, making her a 1.

@darkraiden:

  • Darwin (3)
  • 1/5 Phoenix Force (16)
  • Mjolnir (4) (I need clarification on level of mastery)
  • Full Black Bolt Package (7)
  • Also question, does combining our power into one person against the rules or nah

No, it's not against the rules, though you'd have to prove you can do it without power absorption/mimicry.

You can throw Mjolnir at half of c and have limited energy absorption. You're obviously worthy.

@ssj_god and @imperfect_cell: are reserved

My team:

  • Stark Prep Package (5)
  • Full Knowledge and Perfect Teamwork (9)
  • Piper McLean (3)
  • Post-Anansi Vixen (3)
  • Shadow Thief with Starbreaker amp (3)
  • Kendra Sorenson with Oculus (1)
  • Ronnie Raymond, Martin Stein and Jason Rusch (all composite) (3)
  • Nth Metal Deathstroke (1)
  • Paladin (1)
  • Wolverine (1)

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HigorM

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#138 HigorM  Moderator
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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Was that Brainiac that did that or Vril Dox?

Regardless; I can find someone else (I'll have to do it tomorrow) if you think he's too much or doesn't fit the limits. I was basing him being okay based off of him getting into another recent tournament with similar Street Level limits.

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AgentGhostRider

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@firestormfate1919: Didn't Injustice Raven also Posseses Green Arrow? I remember her doing that in Story Mode of the Game

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FirestormFate1919

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@agentghostrider: I'm honestly not sure. I'm only using feats from the comics though. If she does, I'm not using that at all. She is purely a counter to the Mirror-Verse.

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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@higorm said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: Ok, so if replace Cable for Cyclops I'm good to go?

yeah, that would be fine

@thenewbluebeetle007: Was that Brainiac that did that or Vril Dox?

Regardless; I can find someone else (I'll have to do it tomorrow) if you think he's too much or doesn't fit the limits. I was basing him being okay based off of him getting into another recent tournament with similar Street Level limits.

It was Vril Dox. But apparently you're using Vril Dox II. HUGE difference. Vril Dox I shrinks and collects worlds; Vril Dox II is a geneticist.

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Imperfect_Cell

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#143  Edited By Imperfect_Cell
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DedmanWalkin

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@thenewbluebeetle007:

TTBA

  • Cyborg Superman needs to be a 20. He captured a Guardian with no problem and should easily trounce the Justice League. He only loses to Superman due to CIS.
  • Mirror Master is a teleporter. Mine is 5 points for that purpose. Unless he is raised, TTBA can't use Mirror Verse.

Higorm

  • Cable is also a teleporter.

FF19

  • Which Fate?

DR

  • Darwin is a teleporter. When WWH attacked, he evolved teleportation and teleported away.

TNBB

  • Shadow Thief is a teleporter with Starbreaker AMP.
  • You want Firestorm for 3 points?

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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@thenewbluebeetle007: I've got a couple of team changes and some questions. Here's my team now. I'm jumping on the "Assemble a Hero" bandwagon as well.

Team

Hector Hall (1)

Doc Fate (1) - The guy from Earth 20 who only uses the Helm to see into the future.

Composite Elseworlds Superman (8) - I will be using feats from KC, Red Son, Earth 16 (Post Crisis Iteration), Earth 13, Earth 32, All Star, and Injustice. I'll notify you if anything here changes.

Stark Prep Package (5)

Composite Mr Miracle (1) - No Anti-Life Equation/High Tier stuff; just the peak human escape artist with lots of technology. I'll even make him the version Shilo Norman if anyone's worried about that.

Artemis (1)

Atom 1 Million (3)

Injustice Raven (1)

Amazing Man (1) - I honestly believe he's a one. He can be used for devastating effects in combination (I did get rid of the Creation Blades though), but he would lose to someone like Spiderman. Black Panther would also kill him with little effort.

Morals Off (6)

Gaslight Lex Luthor (1)

Abhararakadhararbarakh (1) - All of his Tech is removed, and this is without access to Magic (he didn't have it that long anyway). He's just the guy from the 64th Century.

Other Stuff

I'd like to go ahead and ask if this is an acceptable method of "Compositization". My plan is for Fate to absorb the rest of the team into the Amulet of Anubis in order to essentially create a singular being. From here he can draw on their powers, skills, and knowledge throughout the battle. I don't think this qualifies as Mimicry and isn't necessarily absorption as they are basically part of his being. I just need to rethink my team a bit if this isn't allowed.

Also, I might call Starbreaker Shadow Thief into question. It's been a while since I read the story so I could be wrong about this, but didn't he stomp the JLA, Shadow Cabinet, and Hawkman simultaneously? Also, I know he can teleport but that matters little to me. I'm just worried about the power-levels.

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FirestormFate1919

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@dedmanwalkin: Hector Hall. Nelson and Nabu destroy these limits, V Nelson has too little feats, and the rest are just not that powerful.

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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@thenewbluebeetle007:

@thetruebarryallen

  • Cyborg Superman needs to be a 20. He captured a Guardian with no problem and should easily trounce the Justice League. He only loses to Superman due to CIS.
  • Mirror Master is a teleporter. Mine is 5 points for that purpose. Unless he is raised, TTBA can't use Mirror Verse.

Higorm

  • Cable is also a teleporter.

FF19

  • Which Fate?

@darkraiden

  • Darwin is a teleporter. When WWH attacked, he evolved teleportation and teleported away.

TNBB

  • Shadow Thief is a teleporter with Starbreaker AMP.
  • You want Firestorm for 3 points?

Okay, then scratch Paladin and Wolverine and make Shadow Thief a 5. I could probably have Piper convince Anansi to bring Paladin during prep anyway, and I'm sure I can find something that says that there's adamantium in Stark Tower.

Regarding Firestorm, I have Ronnie Raymond, Jason Rusch, and Martin Stein. Each one would lose to street level characters such as Batman and Deathstroke. Firestorm would be an 8, but the components are pathetic combatants on their own.

@thenewbluebeetle007: I've got a couple of team changes and some questions. Here's my team now. I'm jumping on the "Assemble a Hero" bandwagon as well.

Team

Hector Hall (1)

Doc Fate (1) - The guy from Earth 20 who only uses the Helm to see into the future.

Composite Elseworlds Superman (8) - I will be using feats from KC, Red Son, Earth 16 (Post Crisis Iteration), Earth 13, Earth 32, All Star, and Injustice. I'll notify you if anything here changes.

Stark Prep Package (5)

Composite Mr Miracle (1) - No Anti-Life Equation/High Tier stuff; just the peak human escape artist with lots of technology. I'll even make him the version Shilo Norman if anyone's worried about that.

Artemis (1)

Atom 1 Million (3)

Injustice Raven (1)

Amazing Man (1) - I honestly believe he's a one. He can be used for devastating effects in combination (I did get rid of the Creation Blades though), but he would lose to someone like Spiderman. Black Panther would also kill him with little effort.

Morals Off (6)

Gaslight Lex Luthor (1)

Abhararakadhararbarakh (1) - All of his Tech is removed, and this is without access to Magic (he didn't have it that long anyway). He's just the guy from the 64th Century.

Other Stuff

I'd like to go ahead and ask if this is an acceptable method of "Compositization". My plan is for Fate to absorb the rest of the team into the Amulet of Anubis in order to essentially create a singular being. From here he can draw on their powers, skills, and knowledge throughout the battle. I don't think this qualifies as Mimicry and isn't necessarily absorption as they are basically part of his being. I just need to rethink my team a bit if this isn't allowed.

Also, I might call Starbreaker Shadow Thief into question. It's been a while since I read the story so I could be wrong about this, but didn't he stomp the JLA, Shadow Cabinet, and Hawkman simultaneously? Also, I know he can teleport but that matters little to me. I'm just worried about the power-levels.

You think Hector Hall is street level?!?!?!

Your compositization seems viable.

Shadow Thief utilizes his opponents' shadows and has them fight for him. He could give a good fight against anyone with a shadow, even some of the high tier guys (he was indeed taking on the Shadow Cabinet, JLA, and Hawkman), but he'd lose to any telepath and certain street level characters could beat him as well. He'd lose to the League because of MMH's telepathy, and he'd lose to Surfer and Captain Atom because Norrin could use cosmic awareness and create a field of light where no shadow is, or use TP.

Essentially he uses your own power against you - he's super hax.

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FirestormFate1919

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@thenewbluebeetle007: I mean Hector without any gear. Just a dude with some low-level magic. He'd be owned by Panther. Thats why I also have Doc Fate. Doc gives Hector the Helm. I'm basically replicating the same process you did with Firestorm because I really wanted Morals Off. I'm perfectly prepared to argue on behalf of both Hector and Doc for being 1's if anyone wants to dispute that.

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HigorM

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#150 HigorM  Moderator