High Tier: DarkRaiden vs JusticeThorPsylocke VOTING

Teams

@darkraiden:

• Darwin (3) (no teleportation)
• 1/5 Phoenix Force (16)
• Cyclops Optic Blasts (1)
• Deadpool Healing (3)
• Full Black Bolt Package (7)

@justicethorpsylocke:

• Modern Doctor Strange (8)
• Adam-X (3)
• Danger (3)
• Perfect Teamwork and Full Knowledge (9)
• Brain of Tony Stark with 2 days prep and access to Stark Tower (5)

Rules

• No power absorption of any kind
• No cloning
• No Dr. Doom
• No Flash or Reverse Flash
• No characters that can and would bust an inhabited planet in character just to take out an enemy
• No time manipulation, although speedsters are allowed
• No character that can solo New 52 Captain Atom and Silver Surfer at once in character
• Fight takes place here

Voting

We are open for voting. Please vote based on whose argument you thought was superior. Those with 1000 or more posts, or those who are in the tourney, may vote.

I'll start

JTP'S COMEBACK AT A TOURNEY CAV!

I'm going into how my Stark Tower prep comes into play, and all the layers of prep I have.

The Doctor Is In, and he loves Vibranium

Danger

Danger is the physical manifestation of the Danger Room, and a very capable technopath and technoformer:

She will use her technoformation to assemble forth the Iron Man Hall of Armors and leave them for her and Strange to work on. Which brings me to.....

The Cerebro-Sentinel

Pheonix 5 Busting

I have full knowledge on your character. I know that you have Pheonix 5 powers, so my team prepares the mech to use it's Phoenix Busting repulsor beam on you like it did in AvX. This time, it has all the other armor's firepower to help it. This is just one of the ways I can one-shot you.

Pym Particles!

Another way I can one-shot you: Pym Particle Containment Field.

What you see here is Hulk, Thor, and Storm (and many others not shown in this scan) being completely detained by being closed in a Pym Particle Containment Field. It essentially uses the hero's strength against himself. My team with prep and full knowledge can take this tech from Stark Tower and use it against you.

I don't have scan on me at the moment, but in a later issue, the same maneuver took down Starbrand, Hyperion, Vision, and about 12 other heroes.

Adam-X'd

Adam-X is a mutant who can quite literally incinerate your blood. Yeah. Before you say that your character in impervious to this:

Now yes, this didn't stop Juggernaut, but Adam-X effectively ignited his blood, it just didn't work to put him down because Juggernaut (especially this enhanced version) is invulnerable to everything.

Strange takes Adam with him to the alternate dimension and then creates a dimensional pocket to allow Adam to use his powers while still in another dimension out of reach.

I won't go as far to say that this one-shots Darwin P5, but it can slow him down, at least enough for a one-shot tactic I've employed to work better before you can adapt.

I have some other tactics I could use, but I'll bring them out later once I've seen your rebuttal. And honestly, I don't see how your guy can do anything here. The DP healing factor and optic blasts were a complete waste of 4 points and the rest of your perks aren't enough to beat me when I have Stark Prep and full knowledge.

I look forward to your reply :)

@justicethorpsylocke: Make sure to tag me next time. Or I can't see that this went down. I only happened to look by chance since lots of new users seem to forget to do this. And even some veteran ones.

My bad. When do you think you'll get a reply up?

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttals

1. Proof that much Vibranium? Especially after BP made all Vibranium inert? Not that it matters, but it seems random to assume Stark has more Vibranium than Wakanda does currently.

2. The Phoenix buster was useless against the Phoenix 5. It only worked against the raw Phoenix Force and even then it only split it up into 5 and made their problems worse. As I am essentially a Phoenix 5 member (plus with Darwin's own adaptive powers), this would do nothing to me. The firepower would be laughable. Stark struggles to beat Hulk (never has) and Thor (also never has). And I'm above them even as Darwin. With the Phoenix 5 amp+Blackbolt powers+Deadpool's healing, it's not even close.

3. If Pym Particle containment's best feat is holding unworthy Thor and Storm, it's not doing anything to me. Not only would I adapt (as Darwin does), but I could simply power out of it at any time.

4. Adam X's powers are useless. Deadpool's healing alone makes it useless as he's survived nukes and survived as a puddle before. Darwin's adaption makes it even more useless and the Phoenix Force even more so. Plus I'm more durable than Juggernaut with this combination.

5. Prove Dr. Strange can BFR a scream. Kang has complete control of the timestream. Strange? Not so much. Plus he's been taken out by a Skrull Blackbolt's scream before and didn't think to do this. So I'm going to need some proof. Then, unfortunately, for you, that'd be time manipulation, which is not allowed. Tough luck.

Strategy

1. Using Cyclops' beams amped and Blackbolts screams amped, I kill your team with ease.

2. I use the Phoenix Force to find where you are if you try to hide, then I take out your team.

3. I could also take out your team physically. Blackbolt has matched Hulk and Thor and Gladiator physically, the Phoenix Force amped the likes of Cyclops and Namor to the point where they no sold Thor's best hits and took out Gladiator and could take his hits without issue. Then Darwin's adaption has allowed him to survive Hela, a skyfather level being, having no body, going into the M'kraan crystal, and more. This puts me physically so far above your team it's not funny.

4. Finally, I could take your team by using the Phoenix Force amp to amplify Darwin's adaption to the next level. He's shown some proactive adaptations and with the amp and knowledge from the Phoenix Force, he would know perfectly how to adapt to take out your team. It could be as simple as becoming anti-magic, anti-metal, injecting viruses into Danger and your armor, and so on. These are plausible for Darwin to do normally, so with the amp, it's just too easy.

It's pretty simple.

Summary

1. Darwin's adaption alone could take everything your team has.

2. With the Phoenix 5 amp and Blackbolt's abilities and Deadpool's healing, you literally cannot put me down.

3. Phoenix 5 Cyclops's beams have oneshotted Thor at low power. Fully unleashed, your team stands no chance

4. Basically you can't harm me, I can harm you. Your tech and your powers do nothing to me. The time BFR thing is not possible or within the rules. While I can easily oneshot you.

5. One man army Darwin easily takes you down.

Scans if needed next time.

@darkraiden

Ouch, you really gave me an opportunity to tear you up here.

1. Proof that much Vibranium? Especially after BP made all Vibranium inert? Not that it matters, but it seems random to assume Stark has more Vibranium than Wakanda does currently.

That isn't how CV battles work. Unless stated otherwise, there isn't specific timeframe for when this battle takes place (ei. what time this Stark Tower is from). So therefore I'm saying that this Stark Tower is from when it had lots of Vibranium in the concrete. Even if it isn't as much as I said, it's still enough to cover this mech and it's more than enough to make it impervious to you.

2. The Phoenix buster was useless against the Phoenix 5. It only worked against the raw Phoenix Force and even then it only split it up into 5 and made their problems worse. As I am essentially a Phoenix 5 member (plus with Darwin's own adaptive powers), this would do nothing to me. The firepower would be laughable. Stark struggles to beat Hulk (never has) and Thor (also never has). And I'm above them even as Darwin. With the Phoenix 5 amp+Blackbolt powers+Deadpool's healing, it's not even close.

First of all, this isn't the P5. This is one hypothetical member of the P5. Second, how the $^!% is this hypothetical member at all comparable to the real Phoenix Force? The firepower would be laughable? This is 65 ARMORS. Just one armor has been proven that it can one shot mountains with a single repulsor. 65 combined (with some being massive) would be seriously damaging. You aren't above Hulk or Thor just as Darwin, and you can't destroy this sort of armor.

3. If Pym Particle containment's best feat is holding unworthy Thor and Storm, it's not doing anything to me. Not only would I adapt (as Darwin does), but I could simply power out of it at any time.

I'm sorry buddy, but with all due respect, this is just an unsupported and poor argument on your part.

In AXIS, this field has completely and easily taken out Starbrand. Do you know the kind of power that this guy has?

He quite literally soloed an entire Builder fleet in Infinity. This fleet was stomping whole space fleets of the Kree, the Spartax, the Skrulls, the Shi'ar, Thor, Hyperion, Captain Marvel, and the rest of the Avengers. AND THIS DUDE TOOK THE BUILDER FLEET OUT IN AN INSTANT ON A WHIM. All that power with that feat, and the Pym Particle Containment Field literally incapped and detained him with no struggle in the slightest. If you honestly think that Darwin can "power out of it" when Starbrand couldn't (whilst not backing up that he has power to contend with it) then you're overestimating/highballing him and lowballing my team and gear obscenely.

4. Adam X's powers are useless. Deadpool's healing alone makes it useless as he's survived nukes and survived as a puddle before. Darwin's adaption makes it even more useless and the Phoenix Force even more so. Plus I'm more durable than Juggernaut with this combination.

If I manage to turn you into a puddle then you certainly are not winning. Once I've done that I'll just put you in the Containment Field and it'll be over. It's one thing to survive and attack, it's another to be completely incapacitated and inert, which this attack could make you. Prove that you're more durable than Juggernaut. ESPECIALLY this amped Juggernaut.

5. Prove Dr. Strange can BFR a scream. Kang has complete control of the timestream. Strange? Not so much. Plus he's been taken out by a Skrull Blackbolt's scream before and didn't think to do this. So I'm going to need some proof. Then, unfortunately, for you, that'd be time manipulation, which is not allowed. Tough luck.

Um, no it isn't time manipulation to simply open up a portal and send the energy to a different dimension. Infact, Strange can simply banish you from the Earthly dimension. And you won't be able to do anything about it since you have no knowledge on my team but I have everything on your one guy. Therefore, I will think to do this because, unlike the Strange who lost to the SkullBolt, I know that you have the scream. So prove to me that you're immune to dimensional BFR.

1. Using Cyclops' beams amped and Blackbolts screams amped, I kill your team with ease.

Prove that your beams will do anything to Cerebro-Sentinel, who has tons of Vibranium (from the building) and Adamantium (from the Sentinel Squad Armor).

2. I use the Phoenix Force to find where you are if you try to hide, then I take out your team.

Show me that you can find them and show me you can traverse dimensions.

3. I could also take out your team physically. Blackbolt has matched Hulk and Thor and Gladiator physically, the Phoenix Force amped the likes of Cyclops and Namor to the point where they no sold Thor's best hits and took out Gladiator and could take his hits without issue. Then Darwin's adaption has allowed him to survive Hela, a skyfather level being, having no body, going into the M'kraan crystal, and more. This puts me physically so far above your team it's not funny.

I don't even need to confront you physically. The field will one-shot you right away, and I've already proved that it can one-shot someone with FAR more power. Took out Hulk and Thor? Big deal. My tech one-shotted a threat who destroyed those 2 plus hundreds of thousands of members of Kree Skrull Shi'ar Spartax fleets.

He survived Hela because she tried to use her death touch and Darwin adapted. This time, I'm using tech that took out someone (and then many powerful others) that is more powerful than Darwin or Hela could ever hope to be.

Starbrand proven superior to Hickman's Avengers Roster (containing Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion) and as I said also has much better feats, yet was one-shotted by the field. Therefore, hypothetical Darwin has nothing that says he could survive me, adaption or not. He has never adapted to something I can't take out.

4. Finally, I could take your team by using the Phoenix Force amp to amplify Darwin's adaption to the next level. He's shown some proactive adaptations and with the amp and knowledge from the Phoenix Force, he would know perfectly how to adapt to take out your team. It could be as simple as becoming anti-magic, anti-metal, injecting viruses into Danger and your armor, and so on. These are plausible for Darwin to do normally, so with the amp, it's just too easy.

That would be cute, if only you weren't already gone with the field or banished to another dimension. "It's plausible for Darwin to do normally" you mean like when he couldn't beat WWH? Yeah, he's invincible..... lol.

Do you realize that all 5 tactics arguments you just made are almost completely unsupported and things I've shown can be countered?

1. Darwin's adaption alone could take everything your team has.

That's unsportted by feats.

2. With the Phoenix 5 amp and Blackbolt's abilities and Deadpool's healing, you literally cannot put me down.

I "literally" don't even have to move a muscle.

3. Phoenix 5 Cyclops's beams have oneshotted Thor at low power. Fully unleashed, your team stands no chance

Starbrand can one-shot a threat that Thor was nothing to, and I can one-shot him. P5 Darwin? Nothing to me.

4. Basically you can't harm me, I can harm you. Your tech and your powers do nothing to me. The time BFR thing is not possible or within the rules. While I can easily oneshot you

I am totally out of your reach, and you are a light breakfast waiting for a dimension BFR or a Pym Field trick. It IS NOT time BFR. You can't even touch me since Strange will just dump you all over the place while keeping Cerebro-Sentinel away from harm. Also, Danger can do this:

Good luck trying to one-shot me when you can't even touch me.

5. One man army Darwin easily takes you down.

One man army Darwin is a non-factor to me. Even if he were accompanied with a team he'd be a non-factor, and I've shown why.

In Conclusion

1. I can dimension dump you with Strange, and you haven't shown that you're above it.

2. I can one-shot you with the Pym Particle Containment Field, which has taken down people with FAR more power than you could ever have.

3. You can't touch me because of hologram trickery and because Strange will be throwing you off in a place where you can't see, touch, or find him.

4. With all this considered, you go down so easy isn't even funny.

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttals

1. Proof that much Vibranium? Especially after BP made all Vibranium inert? Not that it matters, but it seems random to assume Stark has more Vibranium than Wakanda does currently.

That isn't how CV battles work. Unless stated otherwise, there isn't specific timeframe for when this battle takes place (ei. what time this Stark Tower is from). So therefore I'm saying that this Stark Tower is from when it had lots of Vibranium in the concrete. Even if it isn't as much as I said, it's still enough to cover this mech and it's more than enough to make it impervious to you.

I don't know what 'lots of vibranium' is. So prove you have enough vibranium to cover a mech. Should be simple. Also in CV battles, it's assumed the current version. Just FYI. Doesn't really matter either way since even Storm has destroyed enhanced vibranium.

As seen here:

This is from doomwar. If she can harm it, it means nothing to me.

2. The Phoenix buster was useless against the Phoenix 5. It only worked against the raw Phoenix Force and even then it only split it up into 5 and made their problems worse. As I am essentially a Phoenix 5 member (plus with Darwin's own adaptive powers), this would do nothing to me. The firepower would be laughable. Stark struggles to beat Hulk (never has) and Thor (also never has). And I'm above them even as Darwin. With the Phoenix 5 amp+Blackbolt powers+Deadpool's healing, it's not even close.

First of all, this isn't the P5. This is one hypothetical member of the P5. Second, how the $^!% is this hypothetical member at all comparable to the real Phoenix Force? The firepower would be laughable? This is 65 ARMORS. Just one armor has been proven that it can one shot mountains with a single repulsor. 65 combined (with some being massive) would be seriously damaging. You aren't above Hulk or Thor just as Darwin, and you can't destroy this sort of armor.

You've completely misunderstood. The Phoenix Force is universal+. I'm not comparing myself to it, but pointing out that your Phoenix buster did nothing to it or the Phoenix 5. As for 65 armors and mountain busting....you realize that 65 mountains is less than a planet right? Darwin alone has taken more. Phoenix 5 members have taken even more, as has Blackbolt. Add in Deadpool's healing and you've proved why your blasts will do nothing. Then add in that I can control the very energy you use and it gets worse. But I'll save that for the Strategy section.

3. If Pym Particle containment's best feat is holding unworthy Thor and Storm, it's not doing anything to me. Not only would I adapt (as Darwin does), but I could simply power out of it at any time.

I'm sorry buddy, but with all due respect, this is just an unsupported and poor argument on your part.

In AXIS, this field has completely and easily taken out Starbrand. Do you know the kind of power that this guy has?

He quite literally soloed an entire Builder fleet in Infinity. This fleet was stomping whole space fleets of the Kree, the Spartax, the Skrulls, the Shi'ar, Thor, Hyperion, Captain Marvel, and the rest of the Avengers. AND THIS DUDE TOOK THE BUILDER FLEET OUT IN AN INSTANT ON A WHIM. All that power with that feat, and the Pym Particle Containment Field literally incapped and detained him with no struggle in the slightest. If you honestly think that Darwin can "power out of it" when Starbrand couldn't (whilst not backing up that he has power to contend with it) then you're overestimating/highballing him and lowballing my team and gear obscenely.

Unsupported? You showed a scan of this field containing Thor and Storm. Then I said if that's it's best feat, it's laughable. Now a few things

1. I don't see the field taking out Starbrand. Gonna need more proof

2. Hela and the M'Kraan crystal>>>>Starbrand's on panel feats.

3. That fleet is stomping people that Phoenix 5 Namor stomped. Not impressive.

4. Yes Darwin could power out. He could also simply manipulate the energy of the field or just adapt to it like he's shown time and time again.

4. Adam X's powers are useless. Deadpool's healing alone makes it useless as he's survived nukes and survived as a puddle before. Darwin's adaption makes it even more useless and the Phoenix Force even more so. Plus I'm more durable than Juggernaut with this combination.

If I manage to turn you into a puddle then you certainly are not winning. Once I've done that I'll just put you in the Containment Field and it'll be over. It's one thing to survive and attack, it's another to be completely incapacitated and inert, which this attack could make you. Prove that you're more durable than Juggernaut. ESPECIALLY this amped Juggernaut.

Yeah you clearly didn't get the point. The puddle is just a showing of Deadpool's healing. And I've already addressed the field and how easily I get out. As for durability, here's Blackbolt tanking hits from Thor:

fights with Thor head up, physically:

Gallery

Cyclops, normal human, when amped by the Phoenix 5 can easily stop Mjolnir as if it doesn't exist. Also can take punches from Gladiator with ease.

Gallery

Also Namor, who's been oneshotted by Thor's fists, easily no sells Thor's most powerful strike. Thor has hurt Odin, Galactus, and Celestials with less and even knocked back your boy Starbrand as well. Didn't even make Namor flinch.

5. Prove Dr. Strange can BFR a scream. Kang has complete control of the timestream. Strange? Not so much. Plus he's been taken out by a Skrull Blackbolt's scream before and didn't think to do this. So I'm going to need some proof. Then, unfortunately, for you, that'd be time manipulation, which is not allowed. Tough luck.

Um, no it isn't time manipulation to simply open up a portal and send the energy to a different dimension. Infact, Strange can simply banish you from the Earthly dimension. And you won't be able to do anything about it since you have no knowledge on my team but I have everything on your one guy. Therefore, I will think to do this because, unlike the Strange who lost to the SkullBolt, I know that you have the scream. So prove to me that you're immune to dimensional BFR.

You said he'd do it like Kang, which included Time manipulation. I still need proof he can BFR a scream into a different dimension. I'll wait. And dimensional BFR doesn't win according to the Tournament Creator. I quote:

So that plan is entirely useless to BFR me. We gotta keep fighting.

1. Using Cyclops' beams amped and Blackbolts screams amped, I kill your team with ease.

Prove that your beams will do anything to Cerebro-Sentinel, who has tons of Vibranium (from the building) and Adamantium (from the Sentinel Squad Armor).

Like I showed before, Storm damaged Vibranium. Cyclops's normal beam when amped, KO'd Thor. Thor is far more durable than Adamantium. Simple as. And that's not even his unleashed blast.

So compare this:

To this:

And adjust for inflation (this means that his normal beam oneshotted Thor, so apply the same increase to this and it's faaaaar above anything your sentinel can take).

Also this statement/showing:

His beams can pulverize adamantium pre-phoenix 5 amp. So your Sentinel is useless.

2. I use the Phoenix Force to find where you are if you try to hide, then I take out your team.

Show me that you can find them and show me you can traverse dimensions.

Well the Phoenix Force is an infinite well of knowledge as shown here:

As far as traversing dimensions, Darwin's adaptations+the Phoenix Force amp should allow that easily. As you've shown in your scan he's teleported before, so with the amp, it should be no problem to appear right before your team, or bring them to me.

3. I could also take out your team physically. Blackbolt has matched Hulk and Thor and Gladiator physically, the Phoenix Force amped the likes of Cyclops and Namor to the point where they no sold Thor's best hits and took out Gladiator and could take his hits without issue. Then Darwin's adaption has allowed him to survive Hela, a skyfather level being, having no body, going into the M'kraan crystal, and more. This puts me physically so far above your team it's not funny.

I don't even need to confront you physically. The field will one-shot you right away, and I've already proved that it can one-shot someone with FAR more power. Took out Hulk and Thor? Big deal. My tech one-shotted a threat who destroyed those 2 plus hundreds of thousands of members of Kree Skrull Shi'ar Spartax fleets.

He survived Hela because she tried to use her death touch and Darwin adapted. This time, I'm using tech that took out someone (and then many powerful others) that is more powerful than Darwin or Hela could ever hope to be.

Starbrand proven superior to Hickman's Avengers Roster (containing Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion) and as I said also has much better feats, yet was one-shotted by the field. Therefore, hypothetical Darwin has nothing that says he could survive me, adaption or not. He has never adapted to something I can't take out.

Starbrand has never in his life done anything to match Hela. Hela is a skyfather level being on the level of Mephisto, who literally has Blackheart fearing her. So no, you've oneshotted no one close to Hela. Plus by your scans, you've only contained Thor and Storm. Show Starbrand, realize Darwin can just teleport out or manipulate the energy of the field, or just adapt to it. The M'Kraan crystal is the center of the multiverse by the way. So far outside of Starbrand's power.

4. Finally, I could take your team by using the Phoenix Force amp to amplify Darwin's adaption to the next level. He's shown some proactive adaptations and with the amp and knowledge from the Phoenix Force, he would know perfectly how to adapt to take out your team. It could be as simple as becoming anti-magic, anti-metal, injecting viruses into Danger and your armor, and so on. These are plausible for Darwin to do normally, so with the amp, it's just too easy.

That would be cute, if only you weren't already gone with the field or banished to another dimension. "It's plausible for Darwin to do normally" you mean like when he couldn't beat WWH? Yeah, he's invincible..... lol

So...you realize that Darwin came out well in that encounter right? He not only forced an adaptation (draining gamma radiation), but developed teleporting. Which literally counters your banishing strategy (not that it's needed as I proved earlier). Plus WWH had tons of PIS on Hulk's side and everyone acknowledges it. But besides that, Darwin's adapted to, as said before, the M'Kraan crystal, Hela (far above Hulk), and not having a body. He literally reconstructed his body from nothing. Plus I have more later. You'll see.

I am totally out of your reach, and you are a light breakfast waiting for a dimension BFR or a Pym Field trick. It IS NOT time BFR. You can't even touch me since Strange will just dump you all over the place while keeping Cerebro-Sentinel away from harm. Also, Danger can do this:

Not sure what you're trying to point out. Hard-light constructs? Energy that I control. Believe me, it won't help Danger at all. If you mean holograms, Darwin simply adapts and/or the Phoenix Force with it's infinite well of knowledge lets him know it's an illusion. Or both.

Strategy

1. As said before, Blackbolt's screams and Cyclops's beams will easily take out your machines and your team.

2. Any energy used against me will simply be turned against you, drained, or just dissipated with Blackbolt's abilities.

Note that these abilities will be further amplified, and nothing you use against me even matters. Also note that Black Bolt is manipulating the energy of top notch energy manipulators like Nova and Vulcan (Omega level mutant).

With this, your pym particle field, blasts from your armors, etc. do nothing.

3. I mentioned Black Bolt's screams before, but they also are used to short circuit your tech. Look below for the destructive capability and take special note of it short circuiting Tony Stark's suit.

I bolded it for you btw, the Iron Man one.

Also note how his voice punches a hole in space time when amped? Guess what's being amped in this case? Black Bolt's voice. So that same power will be aimed at you.

4. I mentioned that Darwin's adaptations will take you out one way or another. You asked for proof, here it is:

Things to take away from this:

• Darwin adapts subconsciously based on what he wants and needs not just to survive as many think. Shown when he became smart to impress his mom, adapted to read a new language, developed super speed to run away, and adapted to certain attacks by simply having them bounce back. Now imagine that amped.
• Darwin can pro-actively adapt as he did when he depowered the shapeshifter and when he faced WWHulk. Now again, imagine that amped.
• Darwin has adapted to skyfather level beings like Hela, the M'Kraan crystal, not having a body, etc. Again, imagine that amped.

Summary

1. Ultimately my amped energy easily takes out your tech and your team and turns your attacks against you/makes them useless

2. My physical durability+healing+adaptation+ability to reform+amps makes hurting me impossible

3. You can't escape (BFR isn't a way to win) due to Darwin's amped adaptation abilities both subconsciously and pro-actively

4. Your team's offense is useless

5. You can't survive my offense

6. I provided you scans this time. Enjoy.

7. I win.

@darkraiden:

I'm gonna have to divide my counter-arguments into sections.

Starbrand, the Pym Particle Field, and the P5

Okay, buddy. It's one thing to try and debunk something I post, but it's a whole other deal to completely ignore a scan. I'm going to repost it really huge and lay it out for you.

Middle wide panel: That's Starbrand (red and black outfit) in the background beside Black Panther who's in the foreground. In the next panel, every hero in that room, including Starbrand, are taken out by the Pym Particle Containment Field.

Let me give you a list of characters who were taken out this way in AXIS, which I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in saying you haven't read.

• Captain America (Sam)
• Unworthy Thor
• Doc Green
• Starbrand
• Doctor Strange
• Wasp
• Cyclops
• Havok
• Scarlet Witch
• Rouge
• Sunfire
• Nova
• Storm
• Nightcrawler
• Colossus
• Iceman
• Cannonball
• Sunspot
• Vision
• Hyperion
• Kitty Pryde
• She-Hulk
• Beast

And numerous others that I feel are not important to list for this debate.

Now tell me, if the field could be teleported out of, why didn't-------

• Nightcrawler do it? He clearly can teleport quite well.
• Why didn't Kitty Pryde phase out of it?
• Why didn't Cannonball blast out of it? He's taken Gladiator before, and you seem to love bringing him up for the sake of pimping the P5.
• Why didn't Iceman transfer his consciousness into another body of water? Bobby has shown that even when his "entire body is destroyed" (like you love pimping Darwin on) he can easily survive, so how come Bobby was beaten by it?
• Why didn't Wasp shrink out of it?
• Why didn't Vision transfer his AI to another tech body?
• Why didn't Wanda just destroy it with chaos magic?
• Why didn't Havok blast out of it?

My point is, the field adapts to whatever the victim can do by drawing energy from Pym Particles. You can't teleport (banned by OP, I'll get to that later), phase, blast out of, or manipulate the field based on what we've seen.

1. I don't see the field taking out Starbrand. Gonna need more proof

2. Hela and the M'Kraan crystal>>>>Starbrand's on panel feats.

3. That fleet is stomping people that Phoenix 5 Namor stomped. Not impressive.

1. Already proven above.

2. In a minute.

3. Not to be rude, but this right here is just embarrassing.

Are you really trying to tell me that the guy who was viciously gang-beaten by Rulk, Thor, and Thing could solo:

• The Kree Empire
• The Skrull Empire
• The Shi'ar Empire
• The Spartax Empire
• Thor
• Hyperion
• Captain Marvel
• And the rest of the Avengers while also conquering many empires such as the Centurions and destroyed the planet Rom (home of the Spaceknights) and countless others?

Because Starbrand one-shotted a threat who was stomping all of them. If you really think any of the P5 could do that, then you're highballing, and quite blind to facts.

Yes, Namor snaps Rulk's arm in the next panel, but he was still defeated and by a relatively weak Avengers team at that.

Teleportation = OP no-no

Hela, The M'kraan Crystal, and the PP Field

YOU AINT GETTIN THE IRON MAN PART!

• You can't teleport by the rules of the OP, so forget finding Doc or escaping the PP Field that way, which Nightcrawler couldn't do anyway.
• You can't manipulate the field's energy, as there are characters with greater feats of doing so that couldn't (outside Hela and M'kraan adaption, which don't apply here)
• If Iceman can't get out of the field when he doesn't need a body, you won't get out despite not needing a physical body.
• I can teleport and get around your offense while shooting planet-busting beams, you can't.
• The P5 amp has no feats to suggest it can compete with Starbrand.
• You won't adapt in the PP Field because the Field's adaption feats are better (outside Hela and M'kraan adaption, which don't apply here)
• You can't win, and I've shown why.

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttal

Starbrand, the Pym Particle Field, and the P5

Can you show the particle field actually blocking any of the stuff or the people you claim? I don't see Vision phasing through it or Starbrand trying to break it or Kitty Pride trying to phase or Wanda using Chaos Magic. I need proof that your field can block any of this, not just an assumption. It could've been CIS or WIS that none of them used their abilities. There could be more to it in context, I don't know cause I only see a scan of a guy raising the field but not it actually working.

Also that's pretty useless to say I can't bust out. No one in that field has displayed the physical strength I will have via Phoenix Force+Darwin's adaptations (He's grown stone fists simply to hit people and is amped here)+Black Bolt's abilities. Also no one in there has the energy power I have of Cyclops's infinite energy eye beams amped to oneshot Thor (something Starbrand couldn't do and he's the one you claim is the strongest one the shield held) on a lower level. If I unleash those, Pym fields go bye-bye. Same with Black Bolt's amped screams (punching holes in reality).

Oh and post everything. Cause my scan is AFTER the scan you posted. He didn't even lose to that Avenger team, he lost to Wanda helping them out and turning his power against him. As so:

Gallery

And the only reason that worked at all is that Wanda's powers and the Phoenix Force were made yin and yang during that storyline to the point that she was the one who pretty much defeated them. The rest of the Avengers did nothing.

So let's look at that list of people Namor solo'd so bad that Captain America screamed for Scarlet Witch's help:

• Red Hulk
• Thing
• Valkryie
• Vision
• Dr. Strange
• Thor

That's a list of people who all attacked Namor and he was left unscratched and solo'ing. That's a list of people that Namor usually fight either to a stalemate or get oneshotted by (The latter 2) and the amped proved enough that he could fight them all together. Also pointing out that Strange's best shot did nothing to Namor.

Now add on that Black Bolt>>>Namor in every way, that Darwin>>>Namor in every way, that Deadpool's healing+Darwin's adaptations >>>Namor's healing and durability (as is Black Bolt's) and you realize that I'm even more dangerous than he was and would in fact solo your silly list. Those empires pretty much consist of one Thor/Gladiator level person each. And If you forgot:

Gallery

The Phoenix 5 ate those level of people for breakfast. Literally oneshotted Thor with a single energy beam and took his best shot. So your list of fodder+Hyperion+Gladiator+Captain Marvel+Thor would indeed be solo'd with ease.

Teleportation = OP no-no

Let me quote something from the PM:

you have Phoenix Force and IIRC Phoenix Force gives you teleportation, so Darwin will have teleportation.

That's from beetle, tournament creator. I got another:

Yep. He can teleport. As for teleporting between dimensions, as shown before, his adaptations have taken him past people like Hela who can traverse dimensions and is skyfather level and the M'Kraan crystal, and brought him back when he had no body to come back to. Dimensional teleporting is viable for base Darwin. Phoenix amp Darwin it's basically a given.

Hela, The M'kraan Crystal, and the PP Field

I just showed that all these people who do the same thing were taken out by the field, so how will you do it when they can't?

This is a logical fallacy. Just because someone didn't do something, doesn't mean they can't. All the time, due to PIS, WIS, and CIS, we see comic book characters fail to use their abilities to their highest level. Doesn't mean that everyone that hit Flash is lightspeed or hit Kitty can hit intangibles, or every blast that hit Thor can't be absorbed by Mjolnir. It happens because they're not always on 100%. On Comicvine, they are.

Also, using your logic, when Tony Stark had prep he never used this field on a Phoenix 5 member and never tried any of his other armors. Same with Dr. Strange and BFRing attacks or staying in a different dimension. Oh and no one thought to go get Adam X or anything like that either. So using your logic, the fact that they never did any of this means that it wouldn't work on the Phoenix 5 right? So how will Strange, Adam X, Danger, and Tony Stark (his brain and prep) take out the Phoenix 5 when all of the Avengers (which include Tony Stark and Strange), and the entire world couldn't until Wanda came along. Wouldn't that mean that without Scarlet Witch you can't win?

Extending it, how can you take Darwin out if Hela or the M'Kraan crystal couldn't? And the M'Kraan crystal is actually a type of containment field likely many times stronger than Pym particles. Darwin simply passed through like nothing.

Thus your own logic dictates your loss.

For a second, let's just say you're right, that Hela > Starbrand...... Where's Hela? Yes, if there was someone like that he could adapt to, he MIGHT be able to do something, but those feats are a rare thing for circumstance. What feats does he have outside of that or the M'kraan crystal (also not around) that could suggest he'd manipulate the energy when Starbrand and Scarlet Witch couldn't, that he could teleport out when Nightcrawler couldn't, or that he could do anything to it at all when these people who are better than him by non-Hela-going-forth-to-touch-him-or-him-touching-something-that-isn't-around-for-the-fight-feats couldn't do? His adaption, by feats outside of those that don't apply here, are inferior to the adaption feats of the Particle Field, period. And all P5 feats, as I've shown, are inferior by MILES to Starbrand feats.

But he has those feats. What feats does your particle field have for bypassing adaptation that has adapted to any and everything from the nexus of reality to a skyfather level being who automatically induces death? And then that ability amped several times over? I can tell you, it doesn't.

As for manipulating energy, Black Bolt has better energy manipulation feats than both Starbrand and Scarlet Witch. And those abilities are now amped. Plus, as stated before, we never saw them even try. So to say the field can contain ALL energy manipulation is speculation and a baseless assumption.

And I'm not following your logic for Hela or the M'Kraan crystal needing to be around. The point is that they establish that Darwin's adaptation reaches that level, a level far above anything you can throw at him. So unless you have skyfather/multiversal level tech and magic. He Will Adapt. And even if you do, with the amp (and maybe without it), He will STILL Adapt. It's his power.

The gamma absorption didn't work, so if he had no teleportation, it's reasonable to assume Hulk would have won (just going by feats on the fight.)

Pure assumption. He could've turned to anti-gamma radiation. Turned intangible, take Hulk's powers like he did to Hela (after the Hulk fight), depowered Hulk as he did to that shapeshifter (after the Hulk fight), simply exude calming waves to make Hulk not angry. Possibility are endless. Hulk couldn't even fully take out M in that fight or Emma Frost's diamond form and had to find ways to BFR both of them. He'd definitely lose that vs. Darwin. Going by feats.

"Literally reconstructed his body from nothing" just like Iceman can do, yet look at how easily the Pym Particle Field took him down.

You haven't showed that in a scan at all. And again, PIS, WIS, CIS. Iceman can move his consciousness to and control forms of water remotely. That literally wouldn't make sense. Can't assume the Pym Particle Field can do things it has no feats of doing.

YOU AINT GETTIN THE IRON MAN PART!

Don't you realize that the single repulsor blast is the weakest beam an armor can do? The strognest beam a suit can do is the Unibeam, which can destroy continents as stated by Tony in "Original Sin: Hulk vs Iron Man". SIXTY-FIVE combined doing a Unibeam is planet busting no doubt.

Ok let's take Tony's word. 65 continent level blasts are still weak as hell. Even if planet busting. Thor's best hit is far above planet busting, Namor tanked it without flinching. Not to mention how Emma Frost put herself back together, how Black Bolt can manipulate the beams to dissipate, drain them, or turn them against you, or how Darwin has put himself back together from no body and from goop, or how Deadpool has healed from a puddle, and so on.

At best, your beam hits and barely scratches me. If it hurts, I adapt to it and heal. At worst, I drain it and destroy you with adamantium-pulverizing energy that is now amped several times over+Black Bolt's screams now amped several times over, turning your robot into useless mush, if not disintegrating it.

And Black Bolt's scream rendered Tony Stark's suit powerless with a whisper. With the amp, his old scream = his new whisper, And we all know that a scream>>>65x a whisper, so your suit's getting shorted out with a simple amped whisper or scream at any moment.

• You can't teleport by the rules of the OP, so forget finding Doc or escaping the PP Field that way, which Nightcrawler couldn't do anyway.

• You can't manipulate the field's energy, as there are characters with greater feats of doing so that couldn't (outside Hela and M'kraan adaption, which don't apply here)

• If Iceman can't get out of the field when he doesn't need a body, you won't get out despite not needing a physical body.

• I can teleport and get around your offense while shooting planet-busting beams, you can't.

• The P5 amp has no feats to suggest it can compete with Starbrand.

• You won't adapt in the PP Field because the Field's adaption feats are better (outside Hela and M'kraan adaption, which don't apply here)

• You can't win, and I've shown why.

Wrong. I've proven that I can teleport.

Black Bolt's energy manipulation>>>everyone caught in that field. Plus the field lacks feats

Hela and M'Kraan crystal apply here perfectly. Things Darwin adapted to. Add your field to the list

You haven't even shown Iceman in your scans

I can shoot far above planet busting beams. What do you think oneshotting Thor entails? Or Amping a planet busting+scream with the Phoenix Force?

The Phoenix 5 amp replicated Stabrand's feats and more. So wrong.

The PP Field has no feats above Darwins' adaptations. And all of them apply. especially the M'Kraan and Hela

I do win actually.

Strategy

It remains the same.

1. Amped screams and Cyclops blasts. What defense do you have against energy that can easily oneshot your robot and the rest of your team?

2. Energy still turned against you and drained. I've yet to see a defense to this outside of "someone else didn't do it."

3. The screams from before still short circuit all of your tech

4. Have seen nothing countering Darwin's adaptations besides "they don't count" which is a less than flimsy argument. He has an established level of adaptation that reaches past skyfather-abstract tier and is now amped. You have nothing if Darwin decides he wants to teleport to you, be immune to all of your attacks, and oneshot you. With the added abilities, that's now even easier, as I have shown time and time again.

5. So Darwin oneshots your 'super armor', teleports to you, and screams+shoots blasts. Not one atom of your team survives, Danger shorts out on top of that.

Summary

1. Ultimately my amped energy easily takes out your tech and your team and turns your attacks against you/makes them useless

2. My physical durability+healing+adaptation+ability to reform+amps makes hurting me impossible

3. You can't escape (BFR isn't a way to win) due to Darwin's amped adaptation abilities both subconsciously and pro-actively

4. Your team's offense is useless

5. You can't survive my offense

6. I win.

@darkraiden:

Rebuttal

Can you show the particle field actually blocking any of the stuff or the people you claim? I don't see Vision phasing through it or Starbrand trying to break it or Kitty Pride trying to phase or Wanda using Chaos Magic. I need proof that your field can block any of this, not just an assumption. It could've been CIS or WIS that none of them used their abilities. There could be more to it in context, I don't know cause I only see a scan of a guy raising the field but not it actually working.

Also that's pretty useless to say I can't bust out. No one in that field has displayed the physical strength I will have via Phoenix Force+Darwin's adaptations (He's grown stone fists simply to hit people and is amped here)+Black Bolt's abilities. Also no one in there has the energy power I have of Cyclops's infinite energy eye beams amped to oneshot Thor (something Starbrand couldn't do and he's the one you claim is the strongest one the shield held) on a lower level. If I unleash those, Pym fields go bye-bye. Same with Black Bolt's amped screams (punching holes in reality).

Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch, and Sunfire, three powerful energy projectors/manipulators, are taken by the field while trying hard to use their powers. If you try and blast your way out of the field, it's not like it just goes away, as we can see in the scan above with Sunfire. Yes, I understand that he's nowhere near a P5 member, but we see that when he's there trying to blast his way out, the field just compensates, and it can do the same to you, just like how Wanda and Steven were screwed once the field was locked on them and their magic couldn't get them out. Before you say that they weren't 100% or not trying to break out, they show on panel that they were aware of the field, concerned of it's threat, yet couldn't do anything to evade their fate.

The Phoenix 5 ate those level of people for breakfast. Literally oneshotted Thor with a single energy beam and took his best shot. So your list of fodder+Hyperion+Gladiator+Captain Marvel+Thor would indeed be solo'd with ease

That third scan is out of context. That was P2 Scott, when he had half the Phoenix Force, that he caught Mjolnir. None of the P5 have done anything like that.

Yep. He can teleport. As for teleporting between dimensions, as shown before, his adaptations have taken him past people like Hela who can traverse dimensions and is skyfather level and the M'Kraan crystal, and brought him back when he had no body to come back to. Dimensional teleporting is viable for base Darwin. Phoenix amp Darwin it's basically a given.

This makes absolutely NO sense. Because he adapted to Hela's death touch he can travel dimensions? Losing your body and coming back means you can travel dimensions? HOW? Maybe you can teleport, and I was wrong about that, but Darwin has ZERO feats of actually traveling from one dimension to another, and all of the P5 members (even the P4, P2, and DP Cyclops) also have ZERO feats of dimensional travel. End of story. If you have no feats or even decent speculation to suggest he can travel dimensions on the accounts of either source of power you claim can, then he can't.

This is a logical fallacy. Just because someone didn't do something, doesn't mean they can't. All the time, due to PIS, WIS, and CIS, we see comic book characters fail to use their abilities to their highest level. Doesn't mean that everyone that hit Flash is lightspeed or hit Kitty can hit intangibles, or every blast that hit Thor can't be absorbed by Mjolnir. It happens because they're not always on 100%. On Comicvine, they are.

I covered this one above firmly.

Also, using your logic, when Tony Stark had prep he never used this field on a Phoenix 5 member and never tried any of his other armors. Same with Dr. Strange and BFRing attacks or staying in a different dimension. Oh and no one thought to go get Adam X or anything like that either. So using your logic, the fact that they never did any of this means that it wouldn't work on the Phoenix 5 right? So how will Strange, Adam X, Danger, and Tony Stark (his brain and prep) take out the Phoenix 5 when all of the Avengers (which include Tony Stark and Strange), and the entire world couldn't until Wanda came along. Wouldn't that mean that without Scarlet Witch you can't win?

Not the same thing. The PP Field wasn't even weaponized in this way until AXIS, so there wasn't way to one-shot him with it like I can one-shot you.

Extending it, how can you take Darwin out if Hela or the M'Kraan crystal couldn't? And the M'Kraan crystal is actually a type of containment field likely many times stronger than Pym particles. Darwin simply passed through like nothing.

Give me one decent containment feat with the M'Kraan crystal.

Hela's death touch = not the same thing as a field of Pym Particles that adapt and compensate to the victims power to shrink and incapacitate them. Not. At. All. Not the same sort of attack in any way.

Starbrand

Also that's pretty useless to say I can't bust out. No one in that field has displayed the physical strength I will have via Phoenix Force+Darwin's adaptations (He's grown stone fists simply to hit people and is amped here)+Black Bolt's abilities. Also no one in there has the energy power I have of Cyclops's infinite energy eye beams amped to oneshot Thor (something Starbrand couldn't do and he's the one you claim is the strongest one the shield held) on a lower level. If I unleash those, Pym fields go bye-bye. Same with Black Bolt's amped screams (punching holes in reality).

First of all: Cyclops with the P5 never one-shotted Thor. That was either Phoenix 2 or Dark Phoenix Scott. You keep taking out of context AvX scans/feats.

I think it's time I gave you a better picture of who the Builders are, and why Starbrand's feat is so impressive.

The Builders were basically the oldest race in the universe, each one of them was around herald level and VERY powerful on their own

Gallery

In the scans above, a SINGLE Builder solos the Annihiltion Wave. The Wave was considered to be cosmic level threat in the past, yet they were nothing to ONE Builder

Gallery

The Builders in these scans were making massively powerful races and empires such as the Kree, the Kymellians, and the Centaurians were completely surrendering to these guys without even putting up a fight, because even the Kree empire knew first hand that they couldn't win.

The Builders in action? Here you go:

The fact that you're acting like the Builders as a race are some minor herald level threat that was just beating up on Thor, Hyperion, and Gladiator is baffling to me. They are a galaxy-level threat, far above any members of the P5.

All the power that the Builders have, and Starbrand (in the scans below) took them all out like nothing.

Gallery

All this power and all that matter/energy manipulation, and the Pym Particle Containment Field took him out with complete ease. I've already posted that AXIS scan twice so you don't need to ask for it again.

More rebuttals!

Thor's best hit is far above planet busting, Namor tanked it without flinching.

*facepalm* why do I have to keep re-posting scans?

That blow from Thor did A LOT more than make him flinch. It spewed blood from his lip and knocked him back, leaving enough time for Steven to come in.

Not to mention how Emma Frost put herself back together

Again, out of context. That was when she had half the PF, not a fifth. P2, not P5.

Black Bolt's energy manipulation>>>everyone caught in that field. Plus the field lacks feats

Starbrand > Black Bolt in energy manipulation, and the field held him just fine, along with many others who are considered to be on Black Bolt's level such as Hyperion, who is a confirmed planet buster.

I can shoot far above planet busting beams. What do you think oneshotting Thor entails? Or Amping a planet busting+scream with the Phoenix Force?

Any time a Phoenix guy has one-shotted Thor it was with more of the PF than you have, so that's null and void.

The Phoenix 5 amp replicated Stabrand's feats and more. So wrong.

Give me one P5 feat that is on the level of the Starbrand scans I just showed, especially in energy manipulation.

The PP Field has no feats above Darwins' adaptations. And all of them apply. especially the M'Kraan and Hela

The PP continuously draws energy and matter from alternate dimensions, which is how they could subdue every hero, including Starbrand who has shown more raw power and energy manipulation than Darwin ever has. The Hela scans don't show Darwin doing much in the way of manipulating energy (even Madrox says she'll be back up soon) and the M'kraan thing has nothing to suggest that he can adapt to the field because it doesn't display him with the raw power of Starbrand (or even close), not that you've given me a scan on it.

1. Amped screams and Cyclops blasts. What defense do you have against energy that can easily oneshot your robot and the rest of your team?

If Darwin is about to attack Doc will simply teleport him to another dimension in order to avoid the blast, then bring him back for Danger to use the PP Field.

Conclusion

1. As I've shown above, the PP Field has contained someone with more power and energy manipulation capabilities than Darwin, and you haven't given me a reason that, based on feats, Darwin can escape it.
2. You can't touch me, for Doc can simply send you anywhere to avoid the attack (while he's also in a different dimension, out of you reach) yet I can one-shot you with the PP Field.
3. The P5 amp is below Starbrand (based on the scans I showed), who, like I said and showed twice in the same scan, was completely owned by the PP Field, and the only defense you've given to this is that: P5 Namor has held back Thor (which is an unremarkable feat relatively speaking), Darwin adapted to Hela (who's done nothing in the way of destructive power to put her on Starbrand's level) and then some out of context scans of AvX where DP Cyclops (who has far more power than Darwin with this amp) catches Mjolnir.
4. In short, you can't touch me, and I can one-shot you. I win.

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttals

Pym Field and scans

Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch, and Sunfire, three powerful energy projectors/manipulators, are taken by the field while trying hard to use their powers. If you try and blast your way out of the field, it's not like it just goes away, as we can see in the scan above with Sunfire. Yes, I understand that he's nowhere near a P5 member, but we see that when he's there trying to blast his way out, the field just compensates, and it can do the same to you, just like how Wanda and Steven were screwed once the field was locked on them and their magic couldn't get them out. Before you say that they weren't 100% or not trying to break out, they show on panel that they were aware of the field, concerned of it's threat, yet couldn't do anything to evade their fate.

So none of this is true. Those scans are merely the Sentinel's targeting systems. As shown here:

Notice the second scan explicitly states it while the others show people still moving, talking, and using powers.

The last scan also says you wouldn't have these weapons. As Tony Stark's own brain doesn't remember how he made them.

Oh and the scan you use with Spider-Man escaping, the one you use for Starbrand is Captain Falcon using the Pym trap to simply turn the heroes small and trap them in a subatomic ant farm. Not only does Darwin reforming from goop and nothing counter this, but it's not even a weapon you'd have access too. So this entire part of your plan is moot.

Phoenix 5 capabilities vs. Thor and the like

That third scan is out of context. That was P2 Scott, when he had half the Phoenix Force, that he caught Mjolnir. None of the P5 have done anything like that.

That really doesn't matter too much. Scott's beams were still amped enough to match Gladiator's eyebeams. The Phoenix 5 still beat down Gladiator and were unaffected by his hits. Gladiator is very much on Thor's level.

For Gladiator's eyebeam feats, check these out:

blasts thing:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111133231/4029739-gladiator+58.jpg

---

blasts Iron man away:

http://i.imgur.com/Umg1ouc.jpg

---

incinerates guy

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/861439-loss001.jpg

---

stalemates Tyrant:

http://i.imgur.com/3AvV435.jpg

---

hot as star:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/29361/624545-solarsystem051ws.jpg

--

breaks adamantium:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/115379/2540970-clawwt3.jpg

---

powers stargate:

http://i.imgur.com/dJb925Q.jpg

---

kills smasher:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146296/2856950-glads4.jpg

---

eyebeams blow him and hyperion away, breaking their grip:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35308/1333433-23357534fg4.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111133231/4028274-gladiator+29.jpg

---

With the last one, this shows that Gladiator's beams have enough force, when combined with Hyperion's to not only break through their durability to push them back, but the strength of their grip too. That's near planetary force if not more. And Cyclops was amped enough to match these. Without tearing off his visor or trying too hard either.

As for the Namor feat, you're literally leaving out the last page that shows him unflinching from Thor's hit. I'll show both scans, Thor charging up (an attack that has busted Galactus's helmet, hurt Odin, hurt Celestials, shattered planets with it's shockwave, etc.) and Namor barely moving.

As seen here, Namor takes the attack unflinching and turns and hits Thor RIGHT after it. The Phoenix Force's amp is clearly extensive as Namor's been oneshotted by Thor's fist before, in the rain.

Starbrand

Darwin

Main Reason You Can't Win

Basically, here's how it breaks down:

Darwin = an advanced version of H/P Doomsday as he adapts on the spot and has much better adaptation feats.

Darwin+Black Bolt+Cyclops+Deadpool's healing = enhanced advanced H/P Doomsday who's even stronger with insane energy projection and manipulation.

Darwin+Black Bolt=Cyclops+Deadpool's healing+Phoenix Force = enhanced advanced H/P Doomsday who's even stronger with insane energy projection amped over 1000x to 1000000x over (scaling from Namor tanking Thor's best hits, The Phoenix 5 stomping Gladiatior, and Cyclops' beams taking on Gladiator's).

So basically you're facing someone who's impossible to put down rather due to the Phoenix Force putting him back together, or his insane healing factor, or an adaptation ability that heals/reforms from anything, or all of the above which leaves them all supremely amped.

Then factor in whispers that hurt and KO the likes of Gladiator and Hulk, that one word can throw Silver Surfer and shatter a dome Thor and others couldn't dent, and a scream amped can cut a hole in reality. And then factor in the massive million times amp once again. And then factor in limitless energy (Cyclops's beams) that can pulverize Adamantium being amped massively.

And of course, then there's energy projection that can turn any energy you use against you, can drain you, and can dismantle you by the electrons. Energy manipulation to affect the likes of Nova and Vulcan. And then of course, the million times amp once again.

With all of that combined, you stand 0 chance. I have impossible to defeat defenses, potent offense via energy projection, manipulation, and output, physical hits (ask Gladiator), and Darwin's proactive and subconscious adaptations. And all function on a much higher level than you do.

Summary

1. Your Pym field scans were wrong on every level. Tony's never used them, doesn't remember even making those sentinels, AND the scans were just the sentinels aiming at people

2. Phoenix 5 amp allows people like Namor to tank Thor's best hit, allows Cyclops to match Gladiator's eyebeams, and allow the Phoenix 5 to stomp Gladiator physically. This amp combined with my powers are too much.

3. Darwin's adaptations are far above anything you can do. They've adapted to the pinnacle of power in the M'Kraan crystal, straight up beat and depowered Hela, and has depowered others and allowed him to reform from nothing. This is now amped and backed by Deadpool's healing factor and the Phoenix Force's own healing and reforming.

4. My energy manipulation counters everything you do, my energy projection is far above what you can handle, especially with the amp.

5. You can't beat, as I put it, Hunter Prey Doomsday Prime One Million that I've become

6. My defense is unbeatable and my offense is unavoidable.

@darkraiden:

So none of this is true. Those scans are merely the Sentinel's targeting systems. As shown here:

Notice the second scan explicitly states it while the others show people still moving, talking, and using powers.

This is COMPLETELY FALSE. Since you haven't read AXIS, let me explain it to you: There isn't a definitive visual cue for what the heroes look like before the field subdues them. That scan with Wanda and Doctor Strange shows their last moment before being taken down. The field by nature shrinks down the hero after they've been adapted to, so the way you can tell that they're gone is if they simply disappear. And every character in those scans (save Tony due to the fact that he created them) was taken down. Tony even says "both sorcerers are gone" in that exact scan. And when Tony's on his knees, Red Onslaught says "And so your great resistance crumbles before me" AKA everyone was beaten. So no, I'm not wrong.

And I feel as you're going to bring up Magneto. The field wasn't used on him because he's not a hero, which the field was made for.

The last scan also says you wouldn't have these weapons. As Tony Stark's own brain doesn't remember how he made them.

Oh and the scan you use with Spider-Man escaping, the one you use for Starbrand is Captain Falcon using the Pym trap to simply turn the heroes small and trap them in a subatomic ant farm. Not only does Darwin reforming from goop and nothing counter this, but it's not even a weapon you'd have access too. So this entire part of your plan is moot.

DEFINITELY NOT. If Sam, who is barely above average intellect if that, can find the PP Field in Stark Tower, then Danger, a nigh-omniscient, nigh-omnipresent cybernetic entity with extreme technopathy and technoformation can CERTAINLY hack into Stark Tower and find any tech in the building, or simply travel through/read into any tech in the building and find it. How would I NOT have access to it if Sam did? That scan is in Stark Tower you know

And why do you keep acting like the field is so easy to escape? He can't escape just by turning to goo or anything like that. Iceman can turn to water and mist, yet was taken by the field; Vision and Kitty can phase, yet were taken by the field; Wanda and Doc can teleport across dimensions yet couldn't escape. So how exactly does Darwin escape by changing his form?

Also, before you say "show scans for Iceman" Red Onslaught (as I showed above) literally says that every hero in the issue other than Tony was finished and completely subdued, and Iceman was one of them.

That really doesn't matter too much. Scott's beams were still amped enough to match Gladiator's eyebeams. The Phoenix 5 still beat down Gladiator and were unaffected by his hits. Gladiator is very much on Thor's level.

None of those scans are relevant at all, since optic blasts don't matter one bit to this fight. Your heat vision won't touch me with Strange dumping you into different dimensions, and at the end of the day Gladiator was nothing to the Builders, and they was effortlessly one-shotted by Starbrand. So therefore not impressive.

As for the Namor feat, you're literally leaving out the last page that shows him unflinching from Thor's hit. I'll show both scans, Thor charging up (an attack that has busted Galactus's helmet, hurt Odin, hurt Celestials, shattered planets with it's shockwave, etc.) and Namor barely moving.

As seen here, Namor takes the attack unflinching and turns and hits Thor RIGHT after it. The Phoenix Force's amp is clearly extensive as Namor's been oneshotted by Thor's fist before, in the rain.

This scan is remarkably unimpressive. First of all, Thor was completely unphased by that punch, therefore you have nothing to say a P5 member is above Thor, and My Gear>>Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Builders>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thor.

Second, although it may have been PIS, your scan shows Spider-Man, Captain America, Beast, Daredevil, Black Panther, and Valkyrie taking absolutely NO damage from Namor's AOE attack. My PP Field was casually one-shotting a platoon of heroes, most of which either consisted of these heroes in your scan or heroes that dwarf them in power, including Starbrand, whose AOE damage was so intense that (as I keep belaboring) he effortlessly one-shotted THOUSANDS of herald level Builders. This just goes to show that Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any P5 member, and therefore I can take you down with ease given not only that I one-shotted him, but also that I can make enhancements and adjustments to the PP Field because I have full knowledge on you. More on that later.

You showed nothing on panel above Thor, Hyperion, or Gladiator tbh. They too can conquer planets and force empires to kneel. Not that impressive.

With all due respect, that rebuttal is extremely weak and it almost seems like you outright didn't read the scans.

Not above Thor, Gladiator, or Hyperion??? Dude, the Builder Fleet was STOMPING those 3! Those 3 (and their entire galaxy-level space fleet) were nothing to that Builder fleet, yet Starbrand did a HAND GESTURE and took them all out instantly. That is FAAAAR beyond Thor, Hyperion, or Glads. If any of those could have one-shotted the fleet like that, they would have, but they didn't because unlike Starbrand, they don't possess that kind of power. It's even more impressive when you consider that those 3 have had their powers for a lifetime (and in Thor's case, thousands of years) yet Starbrand at the time had his powers for no longer than a MONTH, yet casually did a feat that none of them could even hope to attempt.

That's not showing any skill with energy. Just that he can output a lot. That's the power of his energy, not the skill of his manipulation. Black Bolt is far superior and can drain energy, deconstruct it, manipulate electrons, and turn energy back on its user. There's no comparison.

In the context of actually countering my plan, Starbrand would be much more ideal to try and break out than Black Bolt. That Builder fleet busting feat is much more powerful than anything Black Bolt can do, given that the likes of Thor can resist his voice whereas Starbrand can one-shot a threat that Thor couldn't even dent.

Energy manipulation? Scarlet Witch and Doctor Strange couldn't do jack to the field yet have better feats of warping energy. Wanda can break the laws of physics in order to manipulate matter, reversed Domino and Longshot's probability manipulation (more impressive than depowering a wolf-shapeshifter like Darwin), and transmuted Longshot into a cat.

Also for proof on the M'Kraan crystal:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/mkraancrystal.htm

"(Uncanny X-Men#485) - D'ken and Araki planned the royal wedding of Deathbird & Vulcan, intending to cast Xavier into the Crystal during the ceremony.

As D'ken completed the ceremony, the Starjammers, X-Men, and Shi'ar rebel forces arrived. During the ensuing battle Vulcan cast Xavier into the M'kraan Crystal, and Darwin followed, hoping to save Xavier

(Uncanny X-Men#486) - Darwin found Xavier within the Crystal and escaped with him. The exposure to the M'kraan Crystal restored Xavier's mutant powers, perhaps stronger than ever before."

It's best feat is holding Xavier? Yeah, that isn't even close to the PP Field.

In the sky above the World on which the M'kraan Crystals are nine Death-Stars (which are actually entire galaxies). Once every million years these Death-Stars enter a certain alignment which makes the Crystal permeable to those who contact it.

The M'kraan Crystal has its own will and its own way; it is sentient on some level. It is guarded by the Class 100 strength but diminutive Jahf; if Jahf is defeated, the immense Modt

--who is 1000x more powerful than Jahf--appears to stop any intruder; if Modt is defeated, an as-yet unidentified being, allegedly 1000x more powerful that Modt, would appear to stop any intruder; this succession would reportedly continue until any potential invader is defeated. The Crystal has allegedly granted Jahf and Modt leave to act on its behalf. The guardians are allegedly only needed every million years when the Death-Stars achieve alignment, but they have been seen to act to protect the Crystal on multiple occasions, despite the Death-Stars not be in alignment in most of these occasions.

Those who get past the guardians and enter the Crystal are usually struck by a nightmare effect that causes them to live out their greatest nightmares. Certain beings, such as those without fear or those protected by psychic powers, may be immune to this effect.

According to one account, Modt and Jahf are living facets of the crystal itself, empowered by the entire neutron galaxy at its heart"

Completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Darwin didn't have to get past Jahf or Modt to save Xavier, so this doesn't matter in the slightest.

The legendary power that resides within the M'kraan Crystal is contained within the M'kraan Sphere in its interior. The Sphere contains a neutron galaxy (see comments) bound within a geodesic latticework of anti-energy, a network of interlocking stasis fields neutralizing the power of the neutron galaxy. If the neutron galaxy were freed, its infinite mass would reach out across the universe, pulling planets, stars, solar systems, clusters, galaxies, etc. from their orbits with monstrous ease. They would all be pulled into the neutron galaxy's insatiable gravity well, their mass adding to its gravity, which would attract more mass, until reality began to tear itself apart. Eventually the neutron galaxy would explode, scattering stellar mass out across a new, virgin universe."

Cute, allow me to give you the origin of Starbrand's power.

The White Event is a paradigm shift that acts as a cosmic trigger.

'In the Superflow of each universe is a space station built and maintained by the first race to become sentient. Each station maintains contact with the others, and scans their universe for a race that is about to become cosmically interesting. When it finds one that is doing so, it gives them a blessing - the White Event - and shepherds, in the shape of four glyphs that are gifted to beings who are compatible with them. With this, the species becomes aware of their power, and either expands responsibly, or devolves into anarchy. The system has stood for millions of years.

'The Superflow is where all sentinent beings go when they dream. It is where ideas come from and from which telepathy operates. Weather in the Superflow is influenced by the Zeitgeist. Nightmasks are the icons for sentinents and can go in and out of the it at will. The laws of physics do not apply in the Superflow and there is a Superflow in each universe.

'The Incursions were a phenomenon where two universes would overlap at their respective Earths for six hours, and then either one planet would be destroyed, or both universes. The trend of these Incursions was accelerating, and this caused a forward wave of destruction in the Superflows of the Multiverse. Across reality, the stations exploded. Realizing what they were losing, the stations were ordered to fire randomly, in the hopes that the worlds hit would be able to use their blessing wisely to stop the collapse.

'At least one world was affected by this: Earth-616, where it was announced by Adam, a creature created by Ex Nihilo. He kept announcing it, as well as that "the universe was broken" in the language Builder Machine Code. It was Captain Universe who managed to decipher the code and the message Nightmask was giving, seconds before the White Event hit Earth.

'This White Event empowered Kevin Conner and turned him into Starbrand.

'A brand granting the bearer infinite power, limited in application only by their imagination. Though it exists on several different worlds and takes slightly different forms on each, it always resembles a multi-point star burst. First known in the New Universe, where it was wielded for years by the mysterious figure known only as "the Old Man", who had possess the brand since the middle ages.

'After a conflict between warring factions vying for control of the brand, the Living Tribunal declared the brand to be a threat to the universal order. He then sealed Earth-148611 behind an impenetrable barrier, so that the brand could never interact with the rest of the universe.

In short, The White Event is a multiverse level cosmic phenomenon that was happening in coalition with the series of Incursions that unless stopped, will destroy every reality in the multiverse. The source of the incursions was a being known as Rabum Alal. This entity was such a threat in the multiversal grand scheme that it was at war with the Beyonders, who managed to take down the Celestials, Eternity, Master Order, Lord Chaos, and Infinity...... OF EVERY MULTIVERSE and then took down the Living Tribunal himself.

These guys were going to war with the entire multiverse AND WON, and Starbrand was empowered with a chess piece of their war.

Not to mention that Living Tribunal himself (as I quoted above) deemed that the Starbrand was TOO DANGEROUS and a threat to the order of the multiverse.

Dude, if Living Tribunal says that Starbrand's power is a threat to the multiverse, there should be no bones about it: Starbrand and the power he wields is FAR, FAAAR beyond ANYTHING that Black Bolt, Darwin, the M'kraan crystal, Hela, or the Phoenix Force can achieve.

Enough shown/said. Much more powerful than anything in your possession.

As I just proved, the Starbrand power bank is LEAPS AND BOUNDS above anything that your guy and those you compare him to could ever accomplish, yet I have a gadget that can take him down and then some. You have no chance whatsoever.

Basically, here's how it breaks down:

Darwin = an advanced version of H/P Doomsday as he adapts on the spot and has much better adaptation feats.

Darwin+Black Bolt+Cyclops+Deadpool's healing = enhanced advanced H/P Doomsday who's even stronger with insane energy projection and manipulation.

Darwin+Black Bolt=Cyclops+Deadpool's healing+Phoenix Force = enhanced advanced H/P Doomsday who's even stronger with insane energy projection amped over 1000x to 1000000x over (scaling from Namor tanking Thor's best hits, The Phoenix 5 stomping Gladiatior, and Cyclops' beams taking on Gladiator's).

*facepalm* oh boy...... What does H/P Doomsday have to do with this fight IN THE SLIGHTEST? No accurate speculation can be made on comparing him to Darwin and therefore mentioning him is completely pointless. NEXT

So basically you're facing someone who's impossible to put down rather due to the Phoenix Force putting him back together, or his insane healing factor, or an adaptation ability that heals/reforms from anything, or all of the above which leaves them all supremely amped.

Then factor in whispers that hurt and KO the likes of Gladiator and Hulk, that one word can throw Silver Surfer and shatter a dome Thor and others couldn't dent, and a scream amped can cut a hole in reality. And then factor in the massive million times amp once again. And then factor in limitless energy (Cyclops's beams) that can pulverize Adamantium being amped massively.

And of course, then there's energy projection that can turn any energy you use against you, can drain you, and can dismantle you by the electrons. Energy manipulation to affect the likes of Nova and Vulcan. And then of course, the million times amp once again.

With all of that combined, you stand 0 chance. I have impossible to defeat defenses, potent offense via energy projection, manipulation, and output, physical hits (ask Gladiator), and Darwin's proactive and subconscious adaptations. And all function on a much higher level than you do.

One Builder > The Annihilation Wave >= Silver Surfer, Nova Prime, the entire Kree empire including Ronan, and thousands of other empires.

Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thousands of Builders in weaponized space fleet that was soloing the galaxy.

So yeah, don't try to use Vulcan and Nova as a way to pimp Black Bolt on his energy manipulation, who has absolutely nothing on Starbrand, who I can one-shot.

Conclusion

1. Your Pym field scans were wrong on every level. Tony's never used them, doesn't remember even making those sentinels, AND the scans were just the sentinels aiming at people

Wrong. Captain Falcon could find them just fine, and as I already said, Danger could easily hack into Stark Tower and get the tech, since it was clearly there for a powerless, average intellect human to find. So, no, I still have the Pym Particle tech, and you're boned. EVEN IF I didn't have it on deck, Strange and Danger could STILL easily find Pym Particle devices and weaponize them like they were in AXIS using Tony's Civil War files, like Tony did. If Tony could invent it with no powers, my Strange (who has the mind of Stark) and Danger (an all-knowing cybernetic entity) could do so with 3 times the ease.

2. Phoenix 5 amp allows people like Namor to tank Thor's best hit, allows Cyclops to match Gladiator's eyebeams, and allow the Phoenix 5 to stomp Gladiator physically. This amp combined with my powers are too much.

Thor's best hit couldn't take the Builders, could it?

Optic blasts are irrelevant when Strange will make sure you can't touch me with dimension dumping (oh, don't worry, we'll keep fighting)

"Stomp Glads physically" The Builders were stomping him on such a level he couldn't even attempt to face them.

3. Darwin's adaptations are far above anything you can do. They've adapted to the pinnacle of power in the M'Kraan crystal, straight up beat and depowered Hela, and has depowered others and allowed him to reform from nothing. This is now amped and backed by Deadpool's healing factor and the Phoenix Force's own healing and reforming.

My PP Field has adapted to the multiversal power of Starbrand. Darwin has NOTHING on me.

4. Have seen nothing countering Darwin's adaptations besides "they don't count" which is a less than flimsy argument. He has an established level of adaptation that reaches past skyfather-abstract tier and is now amped. You have nothing if Darwin decides he wants to teleport to you, be immune to all of your attacks, and oneshot you. With the added abilities, that's now even easier, as I have shown time and time again.

Even if they do count(Hela and M'kraan), they are inferior to Starbrand my MILES, who I can one-shot. I can use the PP Field to incap being FAR past Skyfather level. You can't teleport out, otherwise Nightcrawler, Strange, or Wanda would have done so.

4. My energy manipulation counters everything you do, my energy projection is far above what you can handle, especially with the amp.

It doesn't even compare, because as I've shown, I can counter universal+.

5. You can't beat, as I put it, Hunter Prey Doomsday Prime One Million that I've become

*facepalm*

6. My defense is unbeatable and my offense is unavoidable.

My offense can one-shot a being with exponentially more power than you, and if you try to use your offense on me, I'll have strange send you to another dimension then send you back for my PP Field to ruin you.

I can tell you're going to try and make the "Captian Falcon moved out of the way" but you'd be forgetting that I have FULL KNOWLEDGE on you.

I can have Strange alter the field's structure to make it's opponents stay in place with a mystic time-space freezing spell, as shown here:

Gallery

I can imbue the Pym Particles bank with Black Magic to absorb the life-force from Darwin as the Pym Particles do their work while using Strange's spell to keep him in place, and so many other things. The possibilities are almost limitless and you have ZERO chance to win.

That's all for now. You can try replying to this for a conclusion, but I honestly don't see how you can win this.

Have a nice day :)

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttal

Pym Field

Phoenix 5 stuff

none of those scans are relevant at all, since optic blasts don't matter one bit to this fight. Your heat vision won't touch me with Strange dumping you into different dimensions, and at the end of the day Gladiator was nothing to the Builders, and they was effortlessly one-shotted by Starbrand. So therefore not impressive.

Prove Strange will dump me in a different dimension. You've yet to show Strange capable of that. And when did Gladiator fight the Builders? Did I miss that? Also you forget that Gladiator was also nothing to the Phoenix 5 and Starbrand used a lot of effort to defeat the Builders. Not that it matters since Starbrand doesn't have the energy manipulation Blackbolt does.

This scan is remarkably unimpressive. First of all, Thor was completely unphased by that punch, therefore you have nothing to say a P5 member is above Thor, and My Gear>>Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Builders>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thor.

Second, although it may have been PIS, your scan shows Spider-Man, Captain America, Beast, Daredevil, Black Panther, and Valkyrie taking absolutely NO damage from Namor's AOE attack. My PP Field was casually one-shotting a platoon of heroes, most of which either consisted of these heroes in your scan or heroes that dwarf them in power, including Starbrand, whose AOE damage was so intense that (as I keep belaboring) he effortlessly one-shotted THOUSANDS of herald level Builders. This just goes to show that Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any P5 member, and therefore I can take you down with ease given not only that I one-shotted him, but also that I can make enhancements and adjustments to the PP Field because I have full knowledge on you. More on that later.

Phoenix 5 members are above Thor because they tanked his best attack and beat up others on his level such as Red Hulk and Gladiator.

Also for how Thor's non-charged up hit affected Starbrand:

Point: Phoenix 5 Namor and thus my build for Darwin.

Again:

Point: Phoenix 5 Namor

And how was he defeated again? Just three powerhouses both times?

Time 1 = first 2 scans, time 2 = next 2

Gallery

Also not sure why you're mentioning AoE as I didn't even touch on that. Though it is to be noted that Strange and the rest were clearly burning alive until Thor attempted to save them.

Not above Thor, Gladiator, or Hyperion??? Dude, the Builder Fleet was STOMPING those 3! Those 3 (and their entire galaxy-level space fleet) were nothing to that Builder fleet, yet Starbrand did a HAND GESTURE and took them all out instantly. That is FAAAAR beyond Thor, Hyperion, or Glads. If any of those could have one-shotted the fleet like that, they would have, but they didn't because unlike Starbrand, they don't possess that kind of power. It's even more impressive when you consider that those 3 have had their powers for a lifetime (and in Thor's case, thousands of years) yet Starbrand at the time had his powers for no longer than a MONTH, yet casually did a feat that none of them could even hope to attempt.

I looked through your scans, I really did, and I didn't see any indication of Builders Fleet stomping any of them. And it's not above what we've seen Thor do btw. He's hurt the likes of Chaos King Mikaboshi, Gorr the God slayer, and Glory. Oh and your vaunted Starbrand himself. But not Phoenix 5 Namor.

Darwin Adaptations/Builders

It's best feat is holding Xavier? Yeah, that isn't even close to the PP Field.

*sarcasm* Of course. The multiversal nexus of realities that can suck in and hold galaxies that is endless in it's length is nothing compared to shrinking people. *sarcasm*

Completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Darwin didn't have to get past Jahf or Modt to save Xavier, so this doesn't matter in the slightest.

You missed a part:

"Those who get past the guardians and enter the Crystal are usually struck by a nightmare effect that causes them to live out their greatest nightmares. Certain beings, such as those without fear or those protected by psychic powers, may be immune to this effect."

Darwin was unaffected, Professor X was a wreck. Darwin adapted to the M'Kraan Crystal. Again, a better feat than anything you can muster.

White Event, Starband, blah blah

The nexus of reality is still superior.

Also Starbrand never got close to accessing his full power. That was a running theme with him. So you're mentioning potential only. i've already showed feats that say that Phoenix 5 member>>>>Starbrand. And that's before adding Black Bolt and Darwin's powers.

Oh and Phoenix Force is omniversal in the White Room. Like the M'Kraan crystal. Both above Starbrand.

Builder, Starbrand spiel

Not true at all. i've already shown Starbrand lose to the Avengers while Phoenix 5 Namor was stomping them and took strikes that made Starbrand go flying, without flinching. Oh and Thor killed a builder with Mjolnir. Same thing that didn't faze Namor.

Gallery

So again, Phoenix 5 Namor>Starbrand>Builders.

And again, Starbrand only has power, not manipulation as Black Bolt does. It's apples and oranges. And considering that I have more power than Starbrand (can use).....you get the picture.

Conclusion counters

Why I win

1. As seen I've said and reiterated time and time again, Darwin's adapting powers are too good for you to get by. Especially when amped

2. Couple that with energy manipulation and absorption (+amp) of Black Bolt and Cyclops and you get stomped

3. Nothing you tried would work as shown before with Hela, M'Kraan Crystal, etc.

4. Still saw no defense against my attacks

5. I've taken out and tanked attacks from much stronger people than you, as proven by the Starbrand debunk scans.

6. I simply adapt until I win or oneshot you with energy. Whichever one comes first. No possible way to lose.

Conclusion

1. You don't have Pym Particles as Stark doesn't remember using them AND you have no source without Wasp here.

2. Pym Particles being a power set of a few heroes and something even a normal body can get used to, Darwin will easily adapt and you'd end up empowering him.

3. Starbrand isn't even strong enough to take Thor's hits without moving and was easily defeated by the Avengers while Namor took their hits easily and was stomping them until SW came. This is a more amped Phoenix 5 member as it's Cyclops+Deadpool+Black Bolt+Darwin

4. Darwin's adaptations are far above anything you've done. Multi-Omniversal, skyfather, etc.

5. Your magic, your attacks, nothing can get past my defenses+energy manipulation

6. You have nothing to defend against amped Black Bolt screams and Cyclops eyebeams

7. All your bases are belong to me.

@justicethorpsylocke: might wanna delete that. I said TBC for a reason. Whole everything changed before I even saw that.

@darkraiden: I'll do it tomorrow along with using it to add to my full reply. It thought you were gonna do it in parts so I was gonna do the same.

@darkraiden:

No guarantee Danger will find anything. Especially something she nor Tony Stark's brain know anything about. Plus last it was used, they needed Wasp to extract her Pym Particles. And again, Darwin can and has completely rebuilt his body, adapted to hyperspace, and become a body of 100% energy. With this amp especially, he'll easily counter the field/Pym Particles. Also you forget that Pym Particles by nature can be controlled. Hence Hank Pym and his powers as Ant Man/Giant Man. Really you just attempted to use an easily counterable weapon that you likely don't even have access to.

It's tech, and she's a technopathic cyber entity. Danger can find it easy. I'll get to your other points in a moment.

n the context of actually countering my plan, Starbrand would be much more ideal to try and break out than Black Bolt. That Builder fleet busting feat is much more powerful than anything Black Bolt can do, given that the likes of Thor can resist his voice whereas Starbrand can one-shot a threat that Thor couldn't even dent.

Energy manipulation? Scarlet Witch and Doctor Strange couldn't do jack to the field yet have better feats of warping energy. Wanda can break the laws of physics in order to manipulate matter, reversed Domino and Longshot's probability manipulation (more impressive than depowering a wolf-shapeshifter like Darwin), and transmuted Longshot into a cat.

They actually don't. Rarely do Strange or Scarlet Witch manipulate others energy in such a way. Especially anyone as good as Vulcan (who is one of the best energy manipulators in the marvel universe). Black Bolt has. Vulcan, Nova, and more. And probability manipulation is Scarlet Witch's power, but she's simply not as good at energy manipulation as Black Bolt is. Same goes for Dr. Strange.

Even if they aren't as good at actually controlling matter, the nature of their powers are FAR more significant and grandiose than Black Bolt. Doctor Strange can warp energy, matter, and reality by drawing on the power of gods, hell lords, and high-level mystic entities (some of which much more powerful than Hela, such as the Vishanti, Dormammu, Cyttorak, Satannish) and he can draw on their power directly. That is a lot more impressive than just being a matter/energy warper, and if he could have drawn on their power to escape the field, I don't see ANY reason why he wouldn't have.

And Wanda? She draws off the energy of Chthon (more powerful than Hela, therefore more powerful than Darwin) to manipulate reality. Yet she still couldn't escape the field.

Prove Strange will dump me in a different dimension. You've yet to show Strange capable of that.

Teleportation, banishment, and dimensional travel are very prominent and basic powers in his powerset. That's like asking me to show scans of Vision going intangible.

And when did Gladiator fight the Builders? Did I miss that?

Just incase you pretend that Glads isn't there, top panel next to the force field.

Phoenix 5 members are above Thor because they tanked his best attack and beat up others on his level such as Red Hulk and Gladiator.

Also for how Thor's non-charged up hit affected Starbrand:

Point: Phoenix 5 Namor and thus my build for Darwin.

That swing did NOTHING to Starbrand except knock him back, he doesn't even seem like he's bothered if you look at the bottom panel.

Again:

Point: Phoenix 5 Namor

Here I see Starbrand taking a vicious swing from Thor and taking no visible damage and immediately getting back up to fight.

And how was he defeated again? Just three powerhouses both times?

Time 1 = first 2 scans, time 2 = next 2

Gallery

Also not sure why you're mentioning AoE as I didn't even touch on that. Though it is to be noted that Strange and the rest were clearly burning alive until Thor attempted to save them.

First of all, I mentioned AoE because it shows that Starbrand's power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything any of the P5 have any done.

Second, Starbrand was in perfect physical health after taking those shots, he was just scared and helpless because it was his FIRST DAY with superpowers. Kevin was an ordinary kid who had killed hundreds of students after getting his powers on accident and therefore in bad mental shape, whereas Namor is a ruthless and overconfident war monger that always rushes into battle, yet even after a lifetime of having power and then getting an amp, his strongest punch didn't even phase Thor.

I looked through your scans, I really did, and I didn't see any indication of Builders Fleet stomping any of them. And it's not above what we've seen Thor do btw. He's hurt the likes of Chaos King Mikaboshi, Gorr the God slayer, and Glory. Oh and your vaunted Starbrand himself. But not Phoenix 5 Namor.

Again, wrong.

Gallery

In that first scan, Captain America literally looks as if he's casually sitting down and looking up. "Clearly burning alive" NO. Thor does infact not affect Namor there, but he does in the next scan. When Namor then swings at Thor there is no indication of him even MOVING, let alone taking damage.

In that second scan, Thor busts Namor's lip. And OH BOY I think that might be the fourth time I've had to repost that scan because you refuse to acknowledge it.

Therefore: Thor 1, Namor 0.

I looked through your scans, I really did, and I didn't see any indication of Builders Fleet stomping any of them. And it's not above what we've seen Thor do btw. He's hurt the likes of Chaos King Mikaboshi, Gorr the God slayer, and Glory. Oh and your vaunted Starbrand himself. But not Phoenix 5 Namor.

No. The only way for me to fully shown how hopeless the heroes were is to just post the entire comic, which I can't do, so take it from the scans that Thor wasn't able to just one-shot everything with lightning, because if that were viable it would have happened, seeing as how it's in character for him. Also, as I've shown P5 Namor had his lip busted by Thor, yet every time Starbrand has been hit by Thor he's been PERFECTLY FINE afterwards.

Also, you keep boasting that P5 Namor is more powerful than Starbrand due to strength/durability when I've literally shown quotes and scans that prove his power is multiversal.

How does P5 Namor compare to that in ANY WAY?! How has he ever shown power on that level, or even on the level of one-shotting the Builder fleet? I don't understand why you keep denying facts that are being put right in front of your face, I really don't.

*sarcasm* Of course. The multiversal nexus of realities that can suck in and hold galaxies that is endless in it's length is nothing compared to shrinking people. *sarcasm*

By feats, yes. Lol. Being the field that has all these galaxies and jazz means nothing if there's never been a showing of someone with physical or energy power above human being unable to escape..

You missed a part:

"Those who get past the guardians and enter the Crystal are usually struck by a nightmare effect that causes them to live out their greatest nightmares. Certain beings, such as those without fear or those protected by psychic powers, may be immune to this effect."

Darwin was unaffected, Professor X was a wreck. Darwin adapted to the M'Kraan Crystal. Again, a better feat than anything you can muster.

That would only be impressive if telepathy was relevant to this battle at all, which it isn't. He adapted to it: All that means is he can resist telepathy from what you're telling me here.

The nexus of reality is still superior.

Also Starbrand never got close to accessing his full power. That was a running theme with him. So you're mentioning potential only. i've already showed feats that say that Phoenix 5 member>>>>Starbrand. And that's before adding Black Bolt and Darwin's powers.

Oh and Phoenix Force is omniversal in the White Room. Like the M'Kraan crystal. Both above Starbrand.

Superior how? Superior in the sense that the Living Tribunal himself acknowledged Starbrand as a threat? How about no.

Even if he can never access his power fully, it's still inside of him. That is what I've been trying to tell you. The PP Field still has to adapt to the power to the Starbrand (which is multiversal) in order to contain and subdue it. Meaning that it's containment feats are far above anything that Darwin, the P5, or Hela could ever handle.

Just saying "omniversal" instead of "multiversal" doesn't mean yours is better. This isn't the Phoenix Force in the White Room, this is a measly and nearly featless fifth of it on Earth. Not impressive.

Not true at all. i've already shown Starbrand lose to the Avengers while Phoenix 5 Namor was stomping them and took strikes that made Starbrand go flying, without flinching. Oh and Thor killed a builder with Mjolnir. Same thing that didn't faze Namor.

1. Thor busted Namor's lip.
2. Namor's punch didn't even phase Thor.
3. Starbrand knocked Thor, Hulk, and Captain Marvel into space.
4. Starbrand against Avengers showing >>>>>>>>>>> That of P5 Namor's

Thor took out a builder.

And it took him a LONG ASS TIME to do so. Plus it was a HUGE DEAL that he killed ONE. Whereas Starbrand lifted his hands and destroyed THOUSANDS of WAR READY Builders like nothing. Your point is null and void.

Conclusion

Since I'm tired of reiterating every point I've already made and having you repeat the points I've refuted, I'm going to sum everything up.

1. Starbrand is multiversal, above anything that Darwin as adapted to, including the M'Kraan crystal, which greatest power statement is if someone destroyed it the universe would blow up, whereas Living Tribunal said that Starbrand was a threat to the multiverse, yet I have a gadget that can contain his power.
2. Thor is superior to any P5 member as I've shown, and Starbrand was not only immune to his shots unlike P5 Namor, but one-shotted thousands of Builders, who were stomping Thor and the entire galaxy combined. It took an entire issue of anticipation and abstract badassery for Thor to take out just ONE BUILDER. Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Buidlers>>>>>>>>>>Darwin>>>>>>P5 Namor
3. Therefore my gear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You.
4. The PP Field tech will be found by Danger, who will access a portal for Pym Particles from an alternate dimension (that's essentially what Pym Particles are) like Tony and Hank have done before, and Doctor Strange will imbue the energy with Dark Magic and give the energy the Time-Space freezing spell, as I've shown in a scan.
5. With all this said, you really can't win. You will be completely incapped the second the fight starts. Nothing has changed.

@justicethorpsylocke: @darkraiden: when do you want to open for votes?

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttals

It's tech, and she's a technopathic cyber entity. Danger can find it easy. I'll get to your other points in a moment.

That's broad and unproven. Danger has been infected with viruses, controlled by Unit, controlled by Ultron, etc. She's not infallible and has 0 good technopath feats against anyone with defenses. This is tech Tony Stark himself doesn't know of and can't find. And remember that Stark has technopathic defenses on his armors and tech. So she'd be hardpressed to find it unless ALL her time and effort was focused on it for 2 days straight. And then without Wasp, it'd be useless as you'd have no ammo.

Even if they aren't as good at actually controlling matter, the nature of their powers are FAR more significant and grandiose than Black Bolt. Doctor Strange can warp energy, matter, and reality by drawing on the power of gods, hell lords, and high-level mystic entities (some of which much more powerful than Hela, such as the Vishanti, Dormammu, Cyttorak, Satannish) and he can draw on their power directly. That is a lot more impressive than just being a matter/energy warper, and if he could have drawn on their power to escape the field, I don't see ANY reason why he wouldn't have.

Strange hasn't significantly drawn on such energies since he was Classic Strange. Even when he called on Zom, he lost to Hulk. He lost to Ghost Rider. He's not impressive. and Grandiose has nothing to do with control and manipulation. Which is all that matters here. Black Bolt's powers are more relevant as they actually control energy.

Wanda too isn't as good and doesn't manipulate energy as well. Power =/= control. And even then Black Bolt has more power. Wanda only had more when Doom gifted her the Life Force.

Teleportation, banishment, and dimensional travel are very prominent and basic powers in his powerset. That's like asking me to show scans of Vision going intangible.

You would be able to provide me scans then. Vision has tons of them. Show me Strange doing them.

Gladiator Builder pictures

Yeah I saw those pictures. Nothing in them shows Gladiator being hurt, inconvenienced, or defeated by Builders.

Pictures of Starbrand and Thor

Second, Starbrand was in perfect physical health after taking those shots, he was just scared and helpless because it was his FIRST DAY with superpowers. Kevin was an ordinary kid who had killed hundreds of students after getting his powers on accident and therefore in bad mental shape, whereas Namor is a ruthless and overconfident war monger that always rushes into battle, yet even after a lifetime of having power and then getting an amp, his strongest punch didn't even phase Thor.

This is untrue. I showed two different fights. The second, Kevin/Starbrand was TRYING to fight and end it. He was still taken down. Also Namor oneshotted Thor.

Observe:

The next scan after the punch, Thor is limp and being held by Namor. He was literally oneshotted.

In that first scan, Captain America literally looks as if he's casually sitting down and looking up. "Clearly burning alive" NO. Thor does infact not affect Namor there, but he does in the next scan. When Namor then swings at Thor there is no indication of him even MOVING, let alone taking damage.

In that second scan, Thor busts Namor's lip. And OH BOY I think that might be the fourth time I've had to repost that scan because you refuse to acknowledge it.

Therefore: Thor 1, Namor 0.

Actually wrong. Captain America is greatly affected and doubled over. And Thor's hit in that scan is BEFORE he tried the full power swing I showed. Then Namor oneshotted him. So:

Namor 2, Thor 0.

He not only tanked his best shot, but oneshotted him with a punch.

Namor went from fighting evenly with Thing and Luke Cage to one shotting Thor.

So....

it goes:

Black Bolt=Gladiator=Thor (roughly)>Starbrand.

Also

Phoenix 5 Namor>>>Thor=Gladiator>Starbrand>>Thing=Namor=Luke Cage

So Namor jumped several tiers with this Phoenix 5 amp. Imagine what it does to someone on or near Thor's strength like Black Bolt.

No. The only way for me to fully shown how hopeless the heroes were is to just post the entire comic, which I can't do, so take it from the scans that Thor wasn't able to just one-shot everything with lightning, because if that were viable it would have happened, seeing as how it's in character for him. Also, as I've shown P5 Namor had his lip busted by Thor, yet every time Starbrand has been hit by Thor he's been PERFECTLY FINE afterwards.

Starbrand got laid out. And beaten by a group Namor easily dispatched of. Namor also oneshotted Thor while Thor took the best Starbrand has to offer.

Superior how? Superior in the sense that the Living Tribunal himself acknowledged Starbrand as a threat? How about no.

Even if he can never access his power fully, it's still inside of him. That is what I've been trying to tell you. The PP Field still has to adapt to the power to the Starbrand (which is multiversal) in order to contain and subdue it. Meaning that it's containment feats are far above anything that Darwin, the P5, or Hela could ever handle.

Just saying "omniversal" instead of "multiversal" doesn't mean yours is better. This isn't the Phoenix Force in the White Room, this is a measly and nearly featless fifth of it on Earth. Not impressive.

Doesn't matter what's inside him. He enver used it ever. And it's not applicable to the PP field as that's just shrinking someone. Starband has no powers to counter that, Phoenix 5 , Black Bolt, and Darwin do (energy manipulation, reforming, becoming pure energy/jello). This Starbrand spiel is completely irrelevant as power doesn't dictate who escapes shrinking, it's the type of powers you have. I have the right ones, Starbrand didn't.

Oh and Nexus of Reality >>>>possible Multiversal guy who can't access his powers.

Since I'm tired of reiterating every point I've already made and having you repeat the points I've refuted, I'm going to sum everything up.

1. Starbrand is multiversal, above anything that Darwin as adapted to, including the M'Kraan crystal, which greatest power statement is if someone destroyed it the universe would blow up, whereas Living Tribunal said that Starbrand was a threat to the multiverse, yet I have a gadget that can contain his power.
2. Thor is superior to any P5 member as I've shown, and Starbrand was not only immune to his shots unlike P5 Namor, but one-shotted thousands of Builders, who were stomping Thor and the entire galaxy combined. It took an entire issue of anticipation and abstract badassery for Thor to take out just ONE BUILDER. Starbrand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Buidlers>>>>>>>>>>Darwin>>>>>>P5 Namor
3. Therefore my gear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You.
4. The PP Field tech will be found by Danger, who will access a portal for Pym Particles from an alternate dimension (that's essentially what Pym Particles are) like Tony and Hank have done before, and Doctor Strange will imbue the energy with Dark Magic and give the energy the Time-Space freezing spell, as I've shown in a scan.
5. With all this said, you really can't win. You will be completely incapped the second the fight starts. Nothing has changed.

1. Starbrand is barely planetary. He was defeated by Thor+Hulk+Iron Man. Namor himself beat them with the Phoenix 5.

2. Namor oneshotted Thor as seen and took his best shot. Starbrand got tossed and beaten by Thor. And Thor oneshotted a Builder with ease.

3. Your gear is useless as I've said before

4. Nope. Stark can't find it, Danger's not the highest level of technopath, and you don't have Wasp to help.

5. I actually win easily since nothing you have can affect me.

Reasons why I win/Points unrefuted

1. Pym Particles have to touch me to shrink me. They're particles. And then they have to get past Darwin's adaptations, Black Bolt's energy manipulation, and the Phoenix's powers to reform. Also Darwin could simply move out the way, absorb the Particles, have the Particles not affect him, etc. etc.

2. Phoenix 5, Black Bolt, Darwin is too powerful for anyone on your team to hurt or affect

3. The amped power of Black Bolt, Darwin, and Cyclops will oneshot your team

4. You can't hurt me in any way while I can destroy you

5. You don't have proof for most, if not any of your claims.

@thenewbluebeetle007: i'd be ok after one more concluding post.

@darkraiden:

That's broad and unproven. Danger has been infected with viruses, controlled by Unit, controlled by Ultron, etc. She's not infallible and has 0 good technopath feats against anyone with defenses. This is tech Tony Stark himself doesn't know of and can't find. And remember that Stark has technopathic defenses on his armors and tech. So she'd be hardpressed to find it unless ALL her time and effort was focused on it for 2 days straight. And then without Wasp, it'd be useless as you'd have no ammo.

How? It's not like during my STARK TOWER PREP I'm going to get a techo-virus or be ambushed by a stronger technopath. And let's remember that this is current versions, you said so yourself. This means that Tony currently knows about the PP tech since it was used against him during AXIS, therefore Strange w/Tony's brain and Danger should have no trouble finding it.

You would be able to provide me scans then. Vision has tons of them. Show me Strange doing them.

Here's a couple. Happy birthday.

Yeah I saw those pictures. Nothing in them shows Gladiator being hurt, inconvenienced, or defeated by Builders.

The entire story arc is about the entire galaxy (Glads and his Shi'ar included) being ruined by the Builders until Captain Universe and a couple other factors helped them turn it around. He was very "inconvenienced" by many of his own men dying and he (and the rest of the galaxy) lost the first battle against them, which is what that scan contains, him trying to save fallen members of the fleet.

This is untrue. I showed two different fights. The second, Kevin/Starbrand was TRYING to fight and end it. He was still taken down. Also Namor oneshotted Thor.

False. Kevin was never actually damaged too much, he surrendered because he wasn't winning and he was scared. Remember, FIRST DAY WITH POWERS. The experience of killing hundreds then being smacked around by the Avengers would be very overwhelming when you've had powers for less than two hours, and he had enough. It's an emotion/psychological thing, not a matter of being overpowered or outmuscled.

He didn't one-shot Thor, but let's see.

The next scan after the punch, Thor is limp and being held by Namor. He was literally oneshotted.

Did he? Because in that scan I don't see an indication that it happened, all I see is Thor being tossed around.

But let's just assume for a moment that you're right. It's still irrelevent. Starbrand might be physically weaker than Thor or P5 Namor, but I've NEVER tried to boast his physical power, just his cosmic energy projection/manipulation.

So....

it goes:

Black Bolt=Gladiator=Thor (roughly)>Starbrand.

Also

Phoenix 5 Namor>>>Thor=Gladiator>Starbrand>>Thing=Namor=Luke Cage

So Namor jumped several tiers with this Phoenix 5 amp. Imagine what it does to someone on or near Thor's strength like Black Bolt.

No matter how many times you try to wank P5 Namor's strength feats (as moot as they are) you still haven't given me an answer on how exactly P5 Namor could compare to Starbrand's confirmed multiversal power levels. I've already posted a quote stating Living Tribunal saying Starbrand is a threat to the entire multiverse. You haven't even shown that any of the characters whose power you possess (P5 member, Darwin, Black Bolt) even compare to Starbrand's Builder feat, which is a not only a tiny fraction of the power he possesses, but it's a feat that he literally only raised his hands to accomplish. None of your guys even compare to that.

So actually.......

The Builders as an army = thousands herald level beings, each maybe slightly below Thor.

Hela is maybe > Thor, and Thor > One Builder. Same for Black Bolt and a P5 member. Thor > One P5 member (by feats of energy projection). Thor = (just about) Black Bolt.

Therefore, thousands of Builders >>>>>>> Hela, and Starbrand >>>>>>>>>> Builders.

So........ Starbrand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darwin (by Hela feat, his best feat), Black Bolt, Thor, and any P5 member.

However, factoring in Starbrand's true potential and power within (the power that the PP Field would have to counter and did counter) Starbrand is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character mentioned in this thread and more.

With all this said, you can't make a serious argument for ever being able to resist my enhanced PP Field.

Doesn't matter what's inside him. He enver used it ever. And it's not applicable to the PP field as that's just shrinking someone. Starband has no powers to counter that, Phoenix 5 , Black Bolt, and Darwin do (energy manipulation, reforming, becoming pure energy/jello). This Starbrand spiel is completely irrelevant as power doesn't dictate who escapes shrinking, it's the type of powers you have. I have the right ones, Starbrand didn't.

It infact DOES matter, since, as stated in AXIS #2, the field adapts to the heroes strengths and using them against the hero, then uses it to shrink him/her. This means that the field would have had to adapt to everything Kevin had to offer, whether or not he tried to unleash it.

I still find it strange that you beleive this field that could subdue a group with such varied and mighty powers (Starbrand, Hyperion, Thor, Vision, Iceman, Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch) is suddenly powerless because you think you have the perfect characters to break free of it, when there is nothing to suggest you can do the things all these heroes couldn't. Yes, Black Bolt can control energy, so can Wanda, Starbrand, and Strange. Even if you can specifically manipulate it better, that DOES NOT mean you can automatically break free. Do you really think that if Black Bolt was thrown in that comic to try and fight it with the others he'd have suddenly done something that none of the rest could do? That clearly isn't something the field can let happen based on feats.

Reforming your body or becoming liquid? So can Iceman. Phasing, something you can't even do couldn't escape the field. Hyperion is at least hypersonic in speed, yet had no clue that the field was owning him. Your guy has NO knowledge on me, he won't know what hit him, he won't even know that the field is forming around him just like all the heroes in the room didn't know. The heroes fighting the Stark Sentinels DID KNOW, which is why they were able to somewhat evade it. YOU DON'T KNOW. Therefore, the field can and will own you the same way it did them.

Oh and Nexus of Reality >>>>possible Multiversal guy who can't access his powers.

What Kevin can or can't access is irrelevant. The Starbrand power (what the field adapted to) >>>>>>>>>>> M'raan crystal, based on character/entity statements and speculation.

ALSO, Kevin didn't try at all to defeat the Builders, he just raised his hands. If he really tried, forget about it........ Any guy you could throw at him is dead.

1. Starbrand is barely planetary. He was defeated by Thor+Hulk+Iron Man. Namor himself beat them with the Phoenix 5.

It was his first day with power so he surrendered out of being overwhelmed mentally. If current Starbrand did the Builder-busting feat to Thor, Hulk, and Stark they would disintegrate.

2. Namor oneshotted Thor as seen and took his best shot. Starbrand got tossed and beaten by Thor. And Thor oneshotted a Builder with ease.

Thor one-shotting a Builder took a whole issue of his hammer returning from space to build up momentum and catch the Builder by surprise. I call that effort, and I call it Thor being concerned that he wouldn't be able to take the Builder head-on.

Starbrand on the other hand one-shotted thousands of those Builders with 10 times as much ease as Thor two-shotted one of them.

3. Your gear is useless as I've said before

It will one-shot you, and you can't get around it, as I've explained.

4. Nope. Stark can't find it, Danger's not the highest level of technopath, and you don't have Wasp to help.

This is current Stark, post-AXIS, so he knows of it and can find it. Both he and others such as Hank Pym have used Pym Particles in the past and Falcon, someone with no special intelligence, knowledge of Stark Tower's tech, or technological keenness could find it easily. You're trying to use prep feats of characters with no above-average intelligence vs the prep of a super genius (Strange with Stark brain) and Danger, who has the mind of a supercomputer and has powers centered around tech.

5. I actually win easily since nothing you have can affect me.

As I've explained, my field will affect you, my BFR will affect you, my magic will affect you.

1. Pym Particles have to touch me to shrink me. They're particles. And then they have to get past Darwin's adaptations, Black Bolt's energy manipulation, and the Phoenix's powers to reform. Also Darwin could simply move out the way, absorb the Particles, have the Particles not affect him, etc. etc.

If a superman-type-character (Hyperion) couldn't see, hear, or react (with his light-speed reflexes) to the particles and was stomped by them, what makes you think you'll know about them before they've completely wrecked you?

Also they got past Iceman's reformation powers just fine.

2. Phoenix 5, Black Bolt, Darwin is too powerful for anyone on your team to hurt or affect

My gear, as I've explained, can do the job just fine.

3. The amped power of Black Bolt, Darwin, and Cyclops will oneshot your team

Maybe you would if you could touch me, but Strange has that covered.

4. You can't hurt me in any way while I can destroy you

Well, I can one-shot you with a Dark Magic enhanced Pym Particle Field, and I can have Strange BFR you briefly to keep you from ever touching me, so, um..... no.

5. You don't have proof for most, if not any of your claims.

What? Which claims have I not proven?

• I've proven that Starbrand has multiversal power, and can one-shot thousands of herald level beings, and that my gear in a weaker form than what I have can contained and negate his.
• I've proven that Strange can BFR others and travel dimensions.
• I've proven that when a group of powerful heroes were unaware of my PP Field, like you, they all were one-shotted without even knowing it.
• I've proven that Starbrand, a character I can one-shot, is more powerful than Darwin (going by Hela level power, best feat), Black Bolt, and any P5 member.
• I've proven that Doctor Strange can make people freeze in space-time, which he will imbue the Pym Particles with to make sure you stay put while the field does it's work.

So what claims have I made that are unsupported?

If any claims are unsupported, it's the claim that any of the characters you're drawing power from can deal with what I have, when by feats, none of them would have done any better than the heroes my gear (in a weaker form) could easily one-shot.

@thenewbluebeetle007 go right ahead and start the voting.

Tag me.

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttals

How? It's not like during my STARK TOWER PREP I'm going to get a techo-virus or be ambushed by a stronger technopath. And let's remember that this is current versions, you said so yourself. This means that Tony currently knows about the PP tech since it was used against him during AXIS, therefore Strange w/Tony's brain and Danger should have no trouble finding it.

The techno-virus and technopath just show that her technopathy is not absolute. Stark has defenses against technopathy and he himself doesn't know WHERE or HOW to use the PP field or any of that technology. And still has no source/Wasp to get the Pym Particles from.

Strange scans

So...you show him moving through dimensions (not BFR'ing anyone, implying he needs to be touching someone), and him opening a portal at such slow speeds that a jet got considerably closer to him before it opened.

Questions, how are you gonna get within touching range of my Darwin Amalgam? I don't see how you're getting pas the energy barrage or your own energy being turned back on and/or drained from you. Same with the portal. And Jets move at less than sound speed, while Cyclops' blasts are lightspeed. I don't see Strange opening a portal in time. So there's an easy oneshot for me.

The entire story arc is about the entire galaxy (Glads and his Shi'ar included) being ruined by the Builders until Captain Universe and a couple other factors helped them turn it around. He was very "inconvenienced" by many of his own men dying and he (and the rest of the galaxy) lost the first battle against them, which is what that scan contains, him trying to save fallen members of the fleet.

I don't care about Gladiator's feelings. The fact is that the Builders never once harmed him or tanked a hit from him. From feats shown, they're not above Gladiator or Thor or Hyperion as you claim, and thus Starbrand's feat of destroying them is unimpressive. That's the main issue.

False. Kevin was never actually damaged too much, he surrendered because he wasn't winning and he was scared. Remember, FIRST DAY WITH POWERS. The experience of killing hundreds then being smacked around by the Avengers would be very overwhelming when you've had powers for less than two hours, and he had enough. It's an emotion/psychological thing, not a matter of being overpowered or outmuscled.

He didn't one-shot Thor, but let's see.

He surrendered because he was taken down. Especially the second time. He threw a hissy fit, TRIED to beat the Avengers, and failed. Again. He's not that powerful. And Namor did one-shot Thor. Thor was punched and the next scan he was limp, not struggling, still, as Namor battled Scarlet Witch.

No matter how many times you try to wank P5 Namor's strength feats (as moot as they are) you still haven't given me an answer on how exactly P5 Namor could compare to Starbrand's confirmed multiversal power levels. I've already posted a quote stating Living Tribunal saying Starbrand is a threat to the entire multiverse. You haven't even shown that any of the characters whose power you possess (P5 member, Darwin, Black Bolt) even compare to Starbrand's Builder feat, which is a not only a tiny fraction of the power he possesses, but it's a feat that he literally only raised his hands to accomplish. None of your guys even compare to that.

Starbrand has no multiversal feats. Which is all that matters. He might have strength buried deep inside of him, but ultimately he's shown nothing for it. And btw, Thor managed to oneshot a Builder, so they're not that impressive. Meanwhile Black Bolt and Phoenix 5 Namor have feats of hurting people Thor himself can't and destroying things Thor himself can't. Thus their feats>>>>>Starbrand's and their power SHOWN >>>>Starbrand's. And they're now added together on top of Darwin who has Skyfather level feats (that's galaxy level++ by the way). And the M'Kraan feat (omniversal level).

The Builders as an army = thousands herald level beings, each maybe slightly below Thor.

Hela is maybe > Thor, and Thor > One Builder. Same for Black Bolt and a P5 member. Thor > One P5 member (by feats of energy projection). Thor = (just about) Black Bolt.

Therefore, thousands of Builders >>>>>>> Hela, and Starbrand >>>>>>>>>> Builders.

So........ Starbrand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darwin (by Hela feat, his best feat), Black Bolt, Thor, and any P5 member.

No. Builders = oneshotted by Thor. No Herald is THAT weak.

Hela>Blackheart>=Mephisto>>>>>>>>>Thor. She's a skyfather and hell lord. Hela>>>All the Builders+Their fleet+Annihilation Wave combined. They're literally nothing to her. And her touch is confirmed to kill Thor in one hit. What did it do to Darwin? Empowered him.

Darwin>>>>>Hela>>>>Phoenix 5 Namor>>>>Thor=Black Bolt>Starbrand>>>>Builders. By feats.

It infact DOES matter, since, as stated in AXIS #2, the field adapts to the heroes strengths and using them against the hero, then uses it to shrink him/her. This means that the field would have had to adapt to everything Kevin had to offer, whether or not he tried to unleash it.

Stated and not shown. And it adapted to literally nothing. Starbrand didn't even resist. Even by your words he's new to his powers and doesn't know how to use them. And nothing in his power set counters shrinking.

Plus it's never faced galaxy+ level adaptation. Or energy manipulation. Everyone hit by it just stood still. Not gonna happen here.

I still find it strange that you beleive this field that could subdue a group with such varied and mighty powers (Starbrand, Hyperion, Thor, Vision, Iceman, Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch) is suddenly powerless because you think you have the perfect characters to break free of it, when there is nothing to suggest you can do the things all these heroes couldn't. Yes, Black Bolt can control energy, so can Wanda, Starbrand, and Strange. Even if you can specifically manipulate it better, that DOES NOT mean you can automatically break free. Do you really think that if Black Bolt was thrown in that comic to try and fight it with the others he'd have suddenly done something that none of the rest could do? That clearly isn't something the field can let happen based on feats.

Yes Black Bolt would break out. His feats say he's better. But the real issue is that Darwin>>>>everyone you named. Especially in breaking out/adapting.

Plus I've yet to see Iceman be caught and contained.

Reforming your body or becoming liquid? So can Iceman. Phasing, something you can't even do couldn't escape the field. Hyperion is at least hypersonic in speed, yet had no clue that the field was owning him. Your guy has NO knowledge on me, he won't know what hit him, he won't even know that the field is forming around him just like all the heroes in the room didn't know. The heroes fighting the Stark Sentinels DID KNOW, which is why they were able to somewhat evade it. YOU DON'T KNOW. Therefore, the field can and will own you the same way it did them.

1. Never seen anything even implying Iceman is caught

2. I have knowledge. The Phoenix Force and it's infinite knowledge as I showed before

3. Darwin's adaption powers know as soon as the particles attempt to make contact

4. Phasing, reforming the body, etc. weren't ever attempted. And I'm not escaping the field, I'm making sure the Pym Particles never affect me. Either with a body of liquid, jello, pure energy, teleporting out of the way, or simply absorbing and/or becoming immune to the Pym Particles themselves. Or a tried and true one. Darwin's been touched by Death. He became Death. He was on a burning rock and became that. Hit rock off a cliff, became rock. So he could also very likely just become a being of Pym Particles and uses them to shrink your team.

What Kevin can or can't access is irrelevant. The Starbrand power (what the field adapted to) >>>>>>>>>>> M'raan crystal, based on character/entity statements and speculation.

ALSO, Kevin didn't try at all to defeat the Builders, he just raised his hands. If he really tried, forget about it........ Any guy you could throw at him is dead.

As said, the field never adapted. Just shrunk Starbrand as he has no defenses and doesn't know how to use his powers. M'Kraan crystal is omniversal based on feats and statements btw.

And Kevin tried. He unleashed energy and did something he'd never done before. Something worse then my team is capable of, but something nonetheless.

Thor one-shotting a Builder took a whole issue of his hammer returning from space to build up momentum and catch the Builder by surprise. I call that effort, and I call it Thor being concerned that he wouldn't be able to take the Builder head-on.

Thor's own strength would give his hammer more momentum than that small trip would take. And he simply tricked the Builder and showed no concern. And killed it in one hit. Easily.

Starbrand on the other hand one-shotted thousands of those Builders with 10 times as much ease as Thor two-shotted one of them.

Why did you change from one shot to two shot in one sentence? Either way, all Starbrand did was destroy their spaceships. Not impressive. And he tried much more than Thor. Thor didn't have to move a muscle.

Also didn't Shang Chi destroy a builder?

This is current Stark, post-AXIS, so he knows of it and can find it. Both he and others such as Hank Pym have used Pym Particles in the past and Falcon, someone with no special intelligence, knowledge of Stark Tower's tech, or technological keenness could find it easily. You're trying to use prep feats of characters with no above-average intelligence vs the prep of a super genius (Strange with Stark brain) and Danger, who has the mind of a supercomputer and has powers centered around tech.

He knows OF it. Doesn't know where to find it or how. Falcon had lots of prep and had Wasp. Hank Pym literally created Pym Particles and generates them (hence why Wasp is needed). Tony Stark doesn't. Sorry, you can't even get this useless weapon.

As I've explained, my field will affect you, my BFR will affect you, my magic will affect you.

No more than Hela and everything else did. AKA empower me, have me depower it, or have me teleport away or adapt to it in other ways. So non effective.

If a superman-type-character (Hyperion) couldn't see, hear, or react (with his light-speed reflexes) to the particles and was stomped by them, what makes you think you'll know about them before they've completely wrecked you?

Phoenix Force for one. And Black Bolt's energy abilities. Also I don't even need to be aware of them. Darwin's power takes care of that.

• I've proven that Starbrand has multiversal power, and can one-shot thousands of herald level beings, and that my gear in a weaker form than what I have can contained and negate his.

• I've proven that Strange can BFR others and travel dimensions.

• I've proven that when a group of powerful heroes were unaware of my PP Field, like you, they all were one-shotted without even knowing it.

• I've proven that Starbrand, a character I can one-shot, is more powerful than Darwin (going by Hela level power, best feat), Black Bolt, and any P5 member.

• I've proven that Doctor Strange can make people freeze in space-time, which he will imbue the Pym Particles with to make sure you stay put while the field does it's work.

You haven't proven Starbrand has multiversal power. He only has shown barely planetary. He oneshotted a bunch of being Thor also oneshotted. And that your gear shrunk him. That's it.

Strange only BFR'd a plane. With a portal. At slow speeds. Not a lightspeed beam or sound itself.

You showed some people being shurnk, which has nothing to do with me.

Starbrand has no feats near Hela or the M'Kraan crystal. He's below Thor level. He's thus below Phoenix 5 members (who oneshot Thor and take his best shots) and below Black Bolt level.

Dr. Strange can't fuse someone in space/time who magic doesn't affect. Hela too uses magic. Didn't work on Darwin. Also time manipulation is against the rules.

You've yet to support that the Pym Field can adapt, can hold multiversal power, that Starbrand has multiversal power, or anything like it.

Proof

Starbrand isn't Multiversal

Since you take statements as true, let's try this one:

He's stated to be planetary in scale. Explicitly.

Starbrand has to try to destroy the Builder fleet

Actually, I'll just use the scan you posted. He clearly put forth an effort as his eyes and hands glowed and he didn't think he could do it before hand.

Builders are not all herald level or even close

Gallery

There are builders being hurt by Ms. Marvel, random Accusers, and even...Shang Chi. Thor oneshotting one of them should've been enough, but this is undisputed proof that they're not even close to herald level.

Builders are not stronger than the Annihilation Wave in POWER

Gallery

As shown here, the Annihilation Wave were destroying the Builders handily. They were just hacked and turned against themselves. Nova did the same thing (hacking them).

And of course, all of these prove my other points such as Starbrand not being more powerful then my combination of powers.

Reasons why I win/Points unrefuted

1. Pym Particles have to touch me to shrink me. They're particles. And then they have to get past Darwin's adaptations, Black Bolt's energy manipulation, and the Phoenix's powers to reform. Also Darwin could simply move out the way, absorb the Particles, have the Particles not affect him, etc. etc.

Every time Darwin's been hit with something like that, something that 'oneshots' he either teleports out of the way, is empowered by it, or simply adapts to make it inert against him. This time won't be different.

2. Phoenix 5, Black Bolt, Darwin is too powerful for anyone on your team to hurt or affect

3. The amped power of Black Bolt, Darwin, and Cyclops will oneshot your team

4. You can't hurt me in any way while I can destroy you

5. You don't have proof for most, if not any of your claims.

Still no rebuttal to the above while I have proved my claims and disputed yours.

Conclusion

1. Ultimately there is no way to harm me as the Pym Particles merely get absorbed, dodged, and/or ignored. Also still good amounts of doubt that Danger and the rest of your team can even find the Pym Particle weapons and use them. Especially when you're spending all that time on that useless combination of Stark Suits that gets oneshotted.

2. Strange has no defense for your team as his BFR abilities are too slow to properly block my offense (amped screams and blasts)

3. Darwin with these abilities has his skyfather to omniversal adaptation abilities, Black Bolt's physicals on Thor's level, Black Bolt's voice that can destroy things Thor can't with a syllable, Black Bolt's energy manipulation abilities (can control down to the electron level, drain energy, transmute things, and turn energy against the user), Cyclops's mountain busting (planet rending by feats), light speed beams, and Deadpool's healing all amped severely by the Phoenix Force.

4. Any energy is manipulated, absorbed, or turned back on you including magic. Any other attack is adapted to as Darwin has shown many times before (especially magic, you're only way to attack).

5. With no way to hurt me or even affect me besides BFR (which can't end a match, is too slow, and can be adapted against), and no defense to my offense, I win.

@justicethorpsylocke: @darkraiden: opening for votes.

Tagging as requested.

Also tagging all the other tournament members.

@ssj_god@thetruebarryallen@higorm@jacthripper@firestormfate1919@agentghostrider@dedmanwalkin@nighthunder@pacpanda@darkseid1006@banthabot@youngjustice@beatboks1@imperfect_cell:

Voting's open. Leave a vote if you want.

@justicethorpsylocke: You get my vote, by the way.

You need to give reasons. Especially considering that you have less than 1000 posts, which was the limit here. Talk about the debate, make references to the arguments, and then your vote will be counted.

Phew! @darkraiden is on point.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Number of posts someone has doesn't determine anything about them, other than how many posts they have. That's a dumb "rule" and a good way to keep people from participating.

Disregarding that whole mess above... I felt JTP had the more convincing arguments, and what really stood out for me (as simple as it sounds), was his imagination in the creation of his team, an excellent aspect which I look out for and consider in my votes.

no, but it also indicates experience. I said you could vote as long as you gave adequate reasons.

Is that a vote? And if so, I need reasons.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Is my vote going to be counted, or do I need to type out a novel of reasons why I voted?

@urban_ninja_x: those with less than 1000 posts need to make a post on why they voted on who they did with references to the arguments themselves, not just generic phrases like X had the better counters or things that could be gleaned without actually reading the debate.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Okay - I'm assuming a novel of reasons is needed for people with less than 1,000 posts (because number of posts somehow equates to experience in an unknown area), whereas people with more than 1,000 posts don't need to, which automatically indicates they have experience? That doesn't make sense. The number of posts someone has only shows how many times they've posted (there is no way to determine experience from that, as you would have go through each and every one of their posts to see what they've typed). I won't argue with you further, and I've already stated my reason (which would be as valuable as someone with more than 1,000 posts saying the same thing). Either accept my vote, or make sure everyone (no matter the number of posts) has equal opportunity.

I'll be honest, I don't know who would win this fight but as far as debating skills go @darkraiden is on point, so I am giving him my vote.

His responses were direct shots at everything provided, this may be due to going 2nd however all of these responses provided were almost perfect in relation to what @justicethorpsylocke stated.

I felt like JTP was able to effectively counter the key points of DR arguments, and for me he succeeded in the task of proving why his team would win, so he got my vote here.

Scoring

@darkraiden:

• SinnTek1

@justicethorpsylocke:

• HigorM
• Urban Ninja X

@urban_ninja_x@higorm

Thanks a bunch for the votes :)

@justicethorpsylocke: No problem. Glad my vote went through.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Darkraiden gets my vote.

In my humble opinion, he was able to show just how powerful and dangerous his character was, while effectively countering his opponent. However, I will say that his arguments were rather flat, and relied a bit much on ABC logic, and he could have overall done much better. JTP did well, but his arguments were possibly even more one dimensional than Darkraiden's. I feel like this match was sort of just a "Greater than thou" debate, and the way it went, Darkraiden just had a bit more power on his end.

Scoring

@darkraiden:

• SinnTek1
• jacthripper
• PreCrisisBardock

@justicethorpsylocke:

• HigorM
• Urban Ninja X
• Zukolicious

DarkRaiden

He totally rekt the opposition and refuted everything he said, whereas he wasn't as accurately "refuted".

Justicethorpsylocke wins because hes more convincing and provides enough info to make his point clear.

BUMP, we need votes!

@justicethorpsylocke: JTP has my vote. This wasn't clear cut for either side, as demonstrated by the even votes, but I think JTP did better. DR had a powerful team, but JTP had the better structure, formatting, arguments, and just put a bit more effort into what he said. He played his characters in a smart way to make up for DRs clear power advantage. I think DR overplayed the Hela feat, and I didn't see it as that applicable. The Pym Field was an effective counter. All this tilted my vote in favor of JTP.

@firestormfate1919@zukolicious

Thanks a lot for the votes

B4V

@thenewbluebeetle007: I could have sworn I voted in this. But basically, FF1919 hit all my points.

@dedmanwalkin: YES! THE HAX KING VOTED FOR ME!

But really, thanks

@justicethorpsylocke gets my point for having a smarter plan than my team is stronger