Heroes vs the Sith Order

@MasterJohn: I'm not saying she isn't powerful. Simply that she doesn't have telepathic resistance. i.e. she's not a telepath.

That he was able to take a blow from her, (and go toe to toe with the Justice League) denotes that he is highly durable. Something i think is definitly true.

But his telepathic showings are fairly weak in the New 52. He could be powerful. We just haven't seen it yet.

@JamesKM716 said:

@MasterJohn: I'm not saying she isn't powerful. Simply that she doesn't have telepathic resistance. i.e. she's not a telepath.

That he was able to take a blow from her, (and go toe to toe with the Justice League) denotes that he is highly durable. Something i think is definitly true.

But his telepathic showings are fairly weak in the New 52. He could be powerful. We just haven't seen it yet.

Exactly.

So basically new-52 MMH is destroyed by Sidious?

If so, I will need to do the most powerful incarnations of both sides.

Base on feats yes. But I don't think MMH is a weak telepath. I think he hasn't gone up a against an opponent strong enough to test his strength. I think he could give Sidious a challenge, bu would lose. I think you shouldn't switch it back though. Because most powerful incarnations, you get Silve Age Supeman, who is practically immortal.

@JamesKM716 said:

Base on feats yes. But I don't think MMH is a weak telepath. I think he hasn't gone up a against an opponent strong enough to test his strength. I think he could give Sidious a challenge, bu would lose. I think you shouldn't switch it back though. Because most powerful incarnations, you get Silve Age Supeman, who is practically immortal.

New-52 MMH can't defeat Sidious. The other versions could, as the Respect thread shows. However now that MMH is out of the picture, couldn't Sidious pretty much defeat the rest of the team on his own? Which is unfair?

Moreorless yeah

@JamesKM716 said:

Moreorless yeah

So sidious can stomp the rest of the team on his own?

Let me inject my new character, Bumi into this debate. Bumi is the most powerful earthbender in the Avatar series. I think he can deal with some of the Cultists or sith warriors, he only requires little movement to trap someone in quick sand or underground and crush them into the Earth.

Flash solos pre 52

@MasterJohn: So basically all of the Dark Side beings?

@SeanAKAMisery said:

You need Darth Revan, Traya, and Ulic Quel Droma on the list

They are on the list, but there's nothing special about them. Palpatine can stomp all three before they can react.

@MasterJohn said:

Alright here's who I meant-10. Darth Bane. 9. Darth Sion. 8. Exar Kun 7. Galen Marek. 6. Sith Emperor (from SWTOR,) 5. Darth Krayt 4. Darth Malak 3. Darth Nihilus 2. Darth Vader. 1. Darth Sidious

Why is Sion even on this list? Especially above Bane? Marek is no Sith, and shouldn't be here anyways. Malak is nowhere near on this list, Vitiate should be higher, Krayt is either very low on the list or isn't even on the list. Why you would mention Krayt without mentioning Dooku is beyond me (Dooku > Krayt). Also, where is Plagueis and Caedus, who deserve to be 2 and 3?

@No_Trolling said:

Flash solos pre 52

No he doesn't. Essence Transfer.

@MasterJohn: You should ban Essence Transfer or Team 1 has no way of permanently ending some of the beings in Team 2.

@ShootingNova said:

@MasterJohn said:

Alright here's who I meant-10. Darth Bane. 9. Darth Sion. 8. Exar Kun 7. Galen Marek. 6. Sith Emperor (from SWTOR,) 5. Darth Krayt 4. Darth Malak 3. Darth Nihilus 2. Darth Vader. 1. Darth Sidious

Why is Sion even on this list? Especially above Bane? Marek is no Sith, and shouldn't be here anyways. Malak is nowhere near on this list, Vitiate should be higher, Krayt is either very low on the list or isn't even on the list. Why you would mention Krayt without mentioning Dooku is beyond me (Dooku > Krayt). Also, where is Plagueis and Caedus, who deserve to be 2 and 3?

I thought the same thing; check page 2. Much better list there.

@ShootingNova

As I said, they all have prep. With Zatanna they should be able to block any sort of essence transfer.

Also, not ALL dark beings, just alot of them. Check the OP.

@ShootingNova said:

@No_Trolling said:

Flash solos pre 52

No he doesn't. Essence Transfer.

@MasterJohn: You should ban Essence Transfer or Team 1 has no way of permanently ending some of the beings in Team 2.

Green Lantern constructs was shown to contain spirits(Kyle Rayner did that) and also absorb them to the ring(Kilowog once did that). And I also remember JediXMan or Silver saying that beings with strong will power can resist possessions. I doubt Palpatine's essence transfer would be much for team one.

Who wins?

Bump.

Heroes

Let us keep the discussion flowing, anyone care to cash in?

New 52 characters don't really have enough feats to use in battle yet so it's unfair to use them. And Pre Flashpoint characters slaughter the Sith order plus others. So really I have to say this is quite an unfair fight.

@Lvenger said:

New 52 characters don't really have enough feats to use in battle yet so it's unfair to use them. And Pre Flashpoint characters slaughter the Sith order plus others. So really I have to say this is quite an unfair fight.

Not an unfair fight, from any other way it would either be a slaughter for the team or for the sith. If I use most powerful incarnations, it's going in the direction of the team. If I put in pre-flashpoint, again, going in direction of the team, new 52 according to you-going in the direction of the sith.

@SithLantern93: Palpatine is not the only one who can use Essence Transfer. Yes, a strong will can resist it, but that's when the ritual is actually consciously invoked. Palpatine involuntarily uses Essence Transfer. Seems to be the same with Vitiate.

Also, it took the entire Jedi Order, plus all the Spirits of all the Jedi in the past to finally overcome Palpatine's spirit for eternity. None of the Heroes are even Force-sensitive. And I'm not saying the Sith Order stomps, just to let you know.

@JediXMan: Alright.

@MasterJohn: So with prep, is this giving the Sith team artifacts and ritual time?

@JamesKM716 said:

1. Darth Sidious

2. Darth Caedus (Debatable, but he's at least in the top ten)

3. Darth Plagueis (Again, debatable, but i'm sure he's in the top ten)

4. Darth Vader

5. Exar Kun

6. Naga Sadow

7. Sith Emperor Vitiate (TOR)

8. um, I'll put Darth Nihilius, but he almost definitly doesn't deserve the spot. But he does more than the replacement options....

9. Darth Tyrannus (In terms of lightsaber ability, Dooku defeated Mace, who few could beat)

10. Darth Zannah

I fail to see why Nihilus couldn't simply Drain his way up to six. Vitiate is kind of above Kun, IMHO, and Naga Sadow isn't more powerful than Vitiate or Kun. Not to mention Freedon Nadd knows everything he does plus more (including Adas's teachings). So Freedon Nadd has to be above Naga Sadow.

@ShootingNova said:

@SithLantern93: Palpatine is not the only one who can use Essence Transfer. Yes, a strong will can resist it, but that's when the ritual is actually consciously invoked. Palpatine involuntarily uses Essence Transfer. Seems to be the same with Vitiate.

Also, it took the entire Jedi Order, plus all the Spirits of all the Jedi in the past to finally overcome Palpatine's spirit for eternity. None of the Heroes are even Force-sensitive. And I'm not saying the Sith Order stomps, just to let you know.

@JediXMan: Alright.

@MasterJohn: So with prep, is this giving the Sith team artifacts and ritual time?

Yes and yes. However, not even all sith sorcerers combined are as strong as Zatanna..I'm sure with prep, Zatanna can cast some sort of spell to block any sort of essence transfer..

I mean, she was able to brutally hurt a GOD, spectre, who we see Sidious can not defeat.

New hero has been added, Sensei Wu. I am finished adding heroes now, if anyone has any ideas for any dark side groups, let me know.

@ShootingNova said:

@JamesKM716 said:

1. Darth Sidious

2. Darth Caedus (Debatable, but he's at least in the top ten)

3. Darth Plagueis (Again, debatable, but i'm sure he's in the top ten)

4. Darth Vader

5. Exar Kun

6. Naga Sadow

7. Sith Emperor Vitiate (TOR)

8. um, I'll put Darth Nihilius, but he almost definitly doesn't deserve the spot. But he does more than the replacement options....

9. Darth Tyrannus (In terms of lightsaber ability, Dooku defeated Mace, who few could beat)

10. Darth Zannah

I fail to see why Nihilus couldn't simply Drain his way up to six. Vitiate is kind of above Kun, IMHO, and Naga Sadow isn't more powerful than Vitiate or Kun. Not to mention Freedon Nadd knows everything he does plus more (including Adas's teachings). So Freedon Nadd has to be above Naga Sadow.

Vitiate-5, Kun-7 and Sadow-9? Nihlius is really 6? I feel surprising

What has Freedon Nadd done that brings him past SAdow? Tionne Solusar knows lots of Jedi teachings, but she's definitly not that high.

@MasterJohn said:

I mean, she was able to brutally hurt a GOD, spectre, who we see Sidious can not defeat.

Since when is he a god?

Also, Batman kicked Spectre in the face. Spectre is DC's bunching bag.

@JediXMan said:

@MasterJohn said:

I mean, she was able to brutally hurt a GOD, spectre, who we see Sidious can not defeat.

Since when is he a god?

Also, Batman kicked Spectre in the face. Spectre is DC's bunching bag.

And he shot darkseid with a radion bullet.

Here's my point, Palpatine can't beat spectre. We had that debate.

www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/darth-sidious-vs-the-spectre/689810/

Infact, it was deemed a terrible mismatch!

@MasterJohn said:

@JediXMan said:

@MasterJohn said:

I mean, she was able to brutally hurt a GOD, spectre, who we see Sidious can not defeat.

Since when is he a god?

Also, Batman kicked Spectre in the face. Spectre is DC's bunching bag.

And he shot darkseid with a radion bullet.

Here's my point, Palpatine can't beat spectre. We had that debate.

www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/darth-sidious-vs-the-spectre/689810/

Infact, it was deemed a terrible mismatch!

That wasn't my argument. Never once did I say that Palpatine can beat Spectre; ridiculous. I do, however, doubt Zatanna's abilities a bit and, as such, would like to know any and all circumstances involving her fight with Spectre.

@JediXMan said:

@MasterJohn said:

@JediXMan said:

@MasterJohn said:

I mean, she was able to brutally hurt a GOD, spectre, who we see Sidious can not defeat.

Since when is he a god?

Also, Batman kicked Spectre in the face. Spectre is DC's bunching bag.

And he shot darkseid with a radion bullet.

Here's my point, Palpatine can't beat spectre. We had that debate.

www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/darth-sidious-vs-the-spectre/689810/

Infact, it was deemed a terrible mismatch!

That wasn't my argument. Never once did I say that Palpatine can beat Spectre; ridiculous. I do, however, doubt Zatanna's abilities a bit and, as such, would like to know any and all circumstances involving her fight with Spectre.

Here's my point once again, she fought spectre and lived, someone who is above Palpatine. That is what I was trying to say.

So I think she can take on sith-sorcerers. What can Sith Sorcery do that's very impressive? I just havn't seen it.

@JamesKM716: Because he learned everything Sadow did, and then murdered him (additionally, he got the teachings of Adas as well):

As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place.

-- Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

@MasterJohn: With sufficient prep time and a necessary amount of deaths (which can be arranged with significant prep time), Vitiate can unleash a ritual that destroys everything in the galaxy.

@MasterJohn said:

Here's my point once again, she fought spectre and lived, someone who is above Palpatine. That is what I was trying to say.

Palpatine isn't the only being in the Sith Order.

So I think she can take on sith-sorcerers. What can Sith Sorcery do that's very impressive? I just havn't seen it.

With sufficient prep time and the right ritual, galactic destruction is what it can do.

@ShootingNova said:

@MasterJohn said:

Here's my point once again, she fought spectre and lived, someone who is above Palpatine. That is what I was trying to say.

Palpatine isn't the only being in the Sith Order.

So I think she can take on sith-sorcerers. What can Sith Sorcery do that's very impressive? I just havn't seen it.

With sufficient prep time and the right ritual, galactic destruction is what it can do.

Galactic destruction...Zatanna with prep could be able to prevent that from happening. She has froze time befroe.

Anything else impressive Sith Sorcery can do? He is not the only BEING in the Sith Order, but he's the most powerful one. However, Daughter could defeat him. But that's not the point, I brung him in so it would be fair.

@MasterJohn: Granted how there are billions, perhaps trillions of beings here, they could accomplish better. Plus, Wormholes rip through space-time. If Zatanna stops that she can't stop the ritual. One way or another, she gets destroyed. And then the Sith use the same combo against the others.

@ShootingNova said:

@MasterJohn: Granted how there are billions, perhaps trillions of beings here, they could accomplish better. Plus, Wormholes rip through space-time. If Zatanna stops that she can't stop the ritual. One way or another, she gets destroyed. And then the Sith use the same combo against the others.

Zatanna has prep. They have prep, 4 hours each which is there ritual times. I am sure Zatanna can counter a wormhole. How does that make any sense? If zatanna STOPS a wormhole, she can't stop the ritual? Huh? How would she go after both at once? If she reached wherever the ritual is, she could turn the ritualists blood to fire...But she would not go after then both at the same time.

As I said, she will have relics and spells safeguarding herself and the team from essence transfer, life drain, etc. Just like the sith ritualists with probably have relics protecting them.

I need more impressive things sith magic can do before I can say Zatanna doesn't stand a chance.

Also, Bumi, Hal and Batman can do the heavy-lifting on the ground sith warriors.

@ShootingNova We have people here like Old Daka in the night sisters, naga sadow, Mother Talzin, they can do many things through ritual time. However, I've only seen them create voodoo like dolls, raise an army of zombies, and create a Sith warrior.

Flash can probably blitz a bunch of the night sisters effortlessly. It also seems like I may need to add in a Jedi here.

@MasterJohn: Exactly. If she can't stop the ritual at the same time she stops a Wormhole, which rips through space-time. So I don't even know how she can stop that.

This is a good one. I like this match up, and the fact that you provided detailed settings is fantastic. I'll have to go with the Sith on this one because of the range and power of thier abilities. A lot of the guys involved here do not even have to be standing on the planet to kill you. Once the JLA's real heavies came out to play the Sith would quickly realize who valuable such creatures could be and dominate thier minds. The JLA's best weapons and now turned against them.... but maybe not ALL the best weapons. The one chance I give the JLA here is Batman. Batman's got the I-win button like no one else. If he can escape the initial assualt, see the heavies turning on them and hide out somewhere the Sith may not be able to locate him because he's not force-sensative, and he'd be smart enough to evade the turned JLA. So alone, he'd have to invent to lay low, invent some sort of mind shielding device to slap on his friends and turn this shit around. If anyone could.... it's bats. So I'll go Sith 9 times out of 10, with Bats as always playing the ultimate wild card.

@DJ Diesel said:

This is a good one. I like this match up, and the fact that you provided detailed settings is fantastic. I'll have to go with the Sith on this one because of the range and power of thier abilities. A lot of the guys involved here do not even have to be standing on the planet to kill you. Once the JLA's real heavies came out to play the Sith would quickly realize who valuable such creatures could be and dominate thier minds. The JLA's best weapons and now turned against them.... but maybe not ALL the best weapons. The one chance I give the JLA here is Batman. Batman's got the I-win button like no one else. If he can escape the initial assualt, see the heavies turning on them and hide out somewhere the Sith may not be able to locate him because he's not force-sensative, and he'd be smart enough to evade the turned JLA. So alone, he'd have to invent to lay low, invent some sort of mind shielding device to slap on his friends and turn this shit around. If anyone could.... it's bats. So I'll go Sith 9 times out of 10, with Bats as always playing the ultimate wild card.

MMH, Aquaman, and Zatanna are telepath resistant.

Mind bomb is not going to happen, I disagree with your whole assessment. And you are forgetting Bumi, he's a pyscho lunatic, he won't be "mind bombed" that easily. If anything, Zatanna, Animal Man, and Bumi are the "secret weapons".

@ShootingNova: He "murdered" Sadow's spirit. Which, i feel is easier than the physical Sadow. That aside, Sadow has better feats, does he not?

Just because one learns more information does not make them necessarily better.

Bump.

Bump.

@JamesKM716 said:

He "murdered" Sadow's spirit. Which, i feel is easier than the physical Sadow.

Right, so destroying Sadow's spirit is easier, especially when he could simply use Essence Transfer to bind his spirit elsewhere, while the phyiscal body Sadow would simply be destroyed while his essence travels around. So much easier, indeed.

That aside, Sadow has better feats, does he not?

Not exactly.

I recall one of Nadd's weapons (I believe it was his blaster) that was said to kill more Jedi than any lightsaber.

Additionally, Freedon Nadd's spirit could teleport around, (wherever there was a Dark Side nexus), which Sadow didn't have. Sadow has two duelling feats:

1. Stalemating Ludo Kressh, who is featless.

2. Losing to Barel Ovair, who is a featless Sith Inquisitor/disguised Jedi Master.

Freedon Nadd has a duelling feat:

Stalemating his master, Matta Tremayne (a master, possibly a council member), when he was a padawan. Besides, even when he was a padawan, I believe some believed him to have power rivaling that of the council's.

Just because one learns more information does not make them necessarily better.

Except Nadd learnt everything Sadow knew. And more. And he could put it to use.

@ShootingNova said:

@JamesKM716 said:

He "murdered" Sadow's spirit. Which, i feel is easier than the physical Sadow.

Right, so destroying Sadow's spirit is easier, especially when he could simply use Essence Transfer to bind his spirit elsewhere, while the phyiscal body Sadow would simply be destroyed while his essence travels around. So much easier, indeed.

That aside, Sadow has better feats, does he not?

Not exactly.

I recall one of Nadd's weapons (I believe it was his blaster) that was said to kill more Jedi than any lightsaber.

Additionally, Freedon Nadd's spirit could teleport around, (wherever there was a Dark Side nexus), which Sadow didn't have. Sadow has two duelling feats:

1. Stalemating Ludo Kressh, who is featless.

2. Losing to Barel Ovair, who is a featless Sith Inquisitor/disguised Jedi Master.

Freedon Nadd has a duelling feat:

Stalemating his master, Matta Tremayne (a master, possibly a council member), when he was a padawan. Besides, even when he was a padawan, I believe some believed him to have power rivaling that of the council's.

Just because one learns more information does not make them necessarily better.

Except Nadd learnt everything Sadow knew. And more. And he could put it to use.

When did Sadow ever learn Essence Transfer? I've never heard of that. I could be wrong though...

Thank you. Those are actual feats. But, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Sadow cause a Supernova

How do we know he could put that information to use?

@JamesKM716 said:

When did Sadow ever learn Essence Transfer?

He learnt Essence Transfer.....

Several years passed. Then one day, Eison Gynt mysteriously reappeared on Coruscant, wearing the garb of the Massassi and bent on killing Master Ovair.

Possessed by the dark spirit of Naga Sadow, Gynt attacked his former master in daylight.

-- Taken from Timeline 7: Peace for the Republic?

Frustrated, Nadd rebelled against the Sith, fleeing to Yavin 4. He was trained there by theancient spirit of Naga Sadow.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

But, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Sadow cause a Supernova

No, he didn't. The Corsair did.

How do we know he could put that information to use?

Because he murdered Sadow.......

Oh i totally forgot about that... alrighty. I concede

Bump.

Darth Sidious decides to chat amicably first. After all, surely there is a way to settle this fairly. Your most powerful member? Superman? Good... Sidious = Uses Dun Moch to crush Superman's will and mind rape him into being his little bitch. After that, it takes a second and a half for Superman to kill Flash, and half a second to kill the rest.

Then Sidious turns the other Sith against each other, leaving the Galaxy as his to subjugate.

SIDIOUS Wins. (Yes, I think he is HIGHLY underrated. Though to be honest, if it came down to a straight fight the Sith would likely win anyway. Being able to see what's going to happen before it happens is enough of an advantage to win just about ANY fight.)

@LukeTemple: Not happening, they have comic book willpower so they are not being swayed that way. Sidious is highly overrated on the forums because his low showings (obviously better by movie standards but not JL) are more prominant than the odd badly thought out super showing from the endlessly conflicting expanded universe.

@LukeTemple said:

Darth Sidious decides to chat amicably first. After all, surely there is a way to settle this fairly. Your most powerful member? Superman? Good... Sidious = Uses Dun Moch to crush Superman's will and mind rape him into being his little bitch. After that, it takes a second and a half for Superman to kill Flash, and half a second to kill the rest.

Then Sidious turns the other Sith against each other, leaving the Galaxy as his to subjugate.

SIDIOUS Wins. (Yes, I think he is HIGHLY underrated. Though to be honest, if it came down to a straight fight the Sith would likely win anyway. Being able to see what's going to happen before it happens is enough of an advantage to win just about ANY fight.)

Not going to happen. Flash is much more faster then Sidious, and since they have prep Zatanna can simply put a spell to make sure essence transfer, mind wipe, or mind control are nothing towards the Superheros. Superman could speed-blitz Sidious, or simply fire laser-beams at him from afar, not even having to be on Earth.

Bump.

This notion of Sidious being faster then Superman and Flash at full speed is ridiculous.