Hero of Tython vs. Kyp Durron

*Both fighters have morals off/bloodlusted

*Battle takes place on Neutral ground

vs.

vs.

@shootingnova@jedixman@okayalright_44@darth_necray@jkbart@dccomicsrule2011

I'd like to say Kyp, but to be honest, this goes both ways.

Kyp

Kyp, because that light saber is bad@ss

@burnface: what..hero of tython stomps..

? Nobody here is stomping

Kyp manipulating psuedo Black Hole with strain

He felt it enter the void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it. It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded land speeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...... For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction. Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened Yorik coral into the singularity. The portions of the interdictor in closest proximity to the void accelerated faster into its maw so that portions farther back tore, venting gases into space. But the incredible gravity of the singularity didn't allow the remainder of the ship to tear away and be free. It dragged greater and greater portions of the interdictor into it, compressing them, rending them, and in a moment the interdictor was gone

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines 1: Rebel Dream(credit to @Dark_Passenger)

And Tking a a descending Sun Crusher along side Exar Kun

Instead, with the assistance of Exar Kun, he used his innate skill to power up the controls again, to move the control levers, push buttons to alter the course stored in the Sun Crusher’s memory, bringing it out of its entombment. Kyp continued to watch the weapon’s progress, focusing on the sphere of the enormous planet as it crested the misty treetops. The Sun Crusher appeared as a silvery dot, seeming no larger than an atom as it emerged from the highest cloud layers and streaked across space toward the emerald-green moon where Kyp waited.

He stared upward and waited, opening his arms to receive the indestructible weapon. The Sun Crusher approached like a long, sharp thorn of crystalline alloy, cruising upright on its long axis. The toroidal resonance-torpedo launcher hung at the bottom of the long hook. It looked beautiful. The Sun Crusher descended through the jungle moon’s atmosphere, straight down—like a spike to impale the Great Temple. Kyp controlled it, slowed its descent, until the superweapon hovered to a stop, suspended in front of him.

As the sky brightened with planetrise, the alloy hull of the Sun Crusher seemed as pristine as a firefacet gem, scoured of all oxidation and debris by the intense temperatures and pressures at the core of Yavin. The Sun Crusher looked clean, and deadly, and ready for him.

“Thank you, Exar Kun,” Kyp whispered.

Dark Apprentice

Besting several Vong Warriors (who are jedi like in skill, speed, strength and force resistant) in saber combat

Mara felt the Force flood through her. She'd been waiting deep in the Jedi formation, across the green strip from where Anakin had been stationed. The fighting on her side had not been fierce, so she'd not been asked to move up. As she raced along a walkway, then vaulted the balustrade to drop to the next level below, she found out why.

The Yuuzhan Vong had made a solid drive at the center of the Jedi formation. Kyp Durron and Wurth Skidder, both bleeding from numerous cuts, faced four of the warriors. Beyond them, coming down the walkway, Anakin had stopped at the top of a small rise. He'd set Daeshara'cor down and, with two lightsabers, was holding off a knot of the reptoids.

The idiots should have called for help! Mara thumbed her lightsaber to life, splashing a cold blue glow over the Yuuzhan Vong. She launched herself into a long, flying somersault, then ducked beneath the slash meant to open her from hip to hip. She stabbed her blade through the space between the Yuuzhan Vong's legs, then cocked her wrist and stroked the blade against the back of his left knee. Tugging, she came up and through the limb, severing it completely.

Snarling, the warrior began to go down. Mara leapt above the weak return slash, then came down with a heel hard on the fallen Yuuzhan Vong's wrist. Bones crunched and the amphistaff rolled free. Mara batted aside the warrior's other hand, scattering fingers, then stabbed her blade through his throat.

Mara spun as Wurth shrieked. The man reeled back, his right forearm bent where no elbow existed, and bent in a direction that no elbow could take it. His lightsaber was nowhere to be seen. His Yuuzhan Vong foe whirled the amphistaff, sending a hum through the air, and pressed his attack. With the flick of a finger, Mara send a handful of dirt from a planter flying into the warrior's face. The Yuuzhan Vong clawed at his eyes to clear them, giving Kyp Durron a chance to slash him across the belly.

That Yuuzhan Vong warrior sighed all too peacefully as he collapsed. Another warrior arced his amphistaff at Mara, opening a cut in her left shoulder. Mara parried the return slash, then spun and kicked the warrior in the chest. He pitched back, then caught his heels on his dead comrade's body. As he went down, Mara disarmed him with a cut through the wrist, then stabbed him through the chest and melted his heart.

Kyp's violet and white blade swept up in a mighty cut that sliced through the Yuuzhan Vong's chest from right hip to left shoulder. The Yuuzhan Vong spun away from the blow and staggered several steps, clutching at his ruined middle. He held the cleaved breastplate closed as if that would save him, then sat back against a wall and slid to the ground in a pool of his own blood.

Mara jabbed her lightsaber toward Wurth. "Get him out of here. I see blood - it's a compound fracture. Cauterize it with your lightsaber if you have to."

Kyp's eyes narrowed. "He'll survive. I'm not going to leave you here."

"I don't need your help, Kyp. He does. Just go on while there's still time. Do it."

He stared at her through a mask of blood flowing from a scalp wound. "I know my duty."

"Then do your duty toward your friend." She snarled as she ran toward Anakin. "Get him clear!"

The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin(credit to ShootinNova)

Kyp dueling Jaina evenly for some time, until Jaina suddenly suffers severe pain due to a ship she is connected with being hit by a blaster bolt:

A Yuuzhan Vong fighter streamed toward her, and all others moved aside to let it pass.

Jaina reached for the energy that she had found within, that which hurled the dark lightning. She allowed it to flood her and direct her battle.

She sank deeper into the consciousness of the alien ship, losing herself in flight as she had always done. For what seemed like hours she and her challenger darted and spun, trading bolts of plasma, dodging and blocking like swordmasters. Jaina did not think - she acted.

For a while this seemed to be an effective strategy, but her identification with the living ship was too powerful. A plasma bolt slipped back the dovin basal shields and scorched along the side of the ship. Jaina jolted, screaming, as an unexpected searing pain raced down her left arm. She was surprised to see no physical damage there.

Barely conscious, she began to slide completely into the darkness. Again she fell back in time, into the terrifying duel at the Shadow Academy. Again she fought Darth Vader, but this time she could not prevail.

Her opponent stepped back and ripped off the black helmet, revealing Kyp Durron's face.

Source: The New Jedi Order: Dark Journey(credit to ShootingNova

Kyp sparring with NJO Luke Skywalker, fighting as a near-equal:

"Funny." He advanced toward Kyp in mock menace. "Is this every Master for himself?"

Kyp shrugged and ignited his own lightsaber. "Might as well."

Luke heard snap-hisses as the other Masters lit their weapons. This friendly exercise would be horribly dangerous to anyone but a Jedi Master, but all of those present were so in tune with the Force and one another that the odds of a mishap were, as usual, almost nil.

Luke charged Kyp but then, well outside lightsaber strike range, skidded to an abrupt halt. Kyp's face had just enough time to register suspicion before Luke exerted himself through the Force, reaching upward to tree limbs that had grown out over the outpost. He yanked downward. A broad branch slapped down atop Kyp, bearing him to the landing pad surface and sending leaves swirling out all over the roof.

Kyp laughed and rolled free, coming up to his feet. "No fair."

"Tactical superiority is never fair.'"

"I mean, getting leaves and bugs in my hair."

Luke felt the approach of Cilghal from behind. He leapt up and backward, inverting as he flew, and blocked the Mon Cal Master's strike with his blade in passing. He landed behind her. A few meters away, Saba Sebatyne and Corran Horn dueled, each adopting a traditional, formalized lightsaber posture-Saba using a lightsaber in each hand, Corran with his own weapon adjusted to its second setting, its blade now three meters in length and a brilliant Purple instead of its usual silver. Octa Ramis, who had sup-plied Saba with her second weapon, was content to stand off to one side, using the Force to hurl stones, plucked from the ground far below, through the tumult of practicing Masters. Kyle Katarn stood near her, watching all the others, practicing ritualized sword forms and waiting for an opponent to come open.

Kyp advanced against Luke again, striking at Luke's ankles while Cilghal engaged the Grand Master's blade. Luke danced over the low strike and put a foot into Cilghal's torso, more of a push than a kick, before landing again. The Mon Cal staggered back a few steps, offering a nod of appreciation.

Kyp threw a succession of fast blows at Luke's shoulders, occupying him while Cilghal recovered. "Actually, it's a plan for a mission against Jacen. A capture-or-neutralize, "he said, his lightsaber flashing at Luke.

"Neutralize." Luke frowned. He circled Kyp, trying to put him in the middle of their three-way exchange, but Cilghal paced him so that Luke remained in the center. "Meaning 'kill.' "

Kyp nodded, not repentant. "This isn't a mission of assassination, Luke. But if the capture isn't clean, if the choice is to run away and leave him in charge of the Alliance or finish him then and there ..."

"Yeah." Luke felt Cilghal's approach behind him. He bent over backward, his lightsaber hand coming down on the landing pad surface to hold his upper body clear of it, and Cilghal's lightsaber passed through where his waist would have been. Luke instantly straightened, catching her hilt with his free hand, and stepped away, her lightsaber now in his grip. He twirled one blade at each Master. "Go on."

With an exasperated sigh, Cilghal stepped back and exerted herself toward Kyle. The man's lightsaber leapt free from his grip and flew to Cilghal's. Kyle offered no resistance. Cilghal caught it out of the air, called "Thank you," and dashed toward Corran.

Kyp looked dubiously at Luke's twin weapons and fell into a defensive posture. "The team will consist of one or two Masters, three or four Jedi Knights, and a native guide. They'll approach the Senate Building through the undercity." As Luke neared and began throwing probing attacks in quick succession, Kyp deflected them close to his body with equal speed and minimal movement. "When Jacen enters or leaves the building, they spring the trap. Coma gas and shock nets as the first wave, the Jedi making their direct assault immediately afterward." He stopped to stare intently at Luke.

Luke felt the attack-the Force, propelling numerous small objects at him. He jumped back and brought up both lightsabers as a shower of old nuts and bolts came at him with missile speed. It was like defending himself against Yuuzhan Vong thud bugs for the first time in years, but the old skill was undiminished-he calculated which objects had a chance of hitting him and incinerated only them with his blades, letting the others fly harmlessly past.

The trouble was, the ones that flew past soon curved around for another attack.

Meanwhile, Kyp continued, "We have a shuttle or other enclosed vehicle land for a quick extraction. But the trick is, it's an empty droid vehicle. Our group, with Jacen, their captive, actually reenters the undercity through a ground-side maintenance access hatch modified to serve as an exit. While the shuttle makes its escape run and draws off pursuit, our group goes back the way it came to the true departure point."

"Who's the team leader?"

Kyp shrugged. "Not determined yet."

Corran's and Kyle's voices rose simultaneously: "Me."

Luke, thoughtful, finished incinerating the last of the flying bolts. He switched off Cilghal's lightsaber and tossed it over his shoulder. He heard it slap down into her big webbed hand. "What about your native guide? Someone to get you through the undercity, I'm guessing. Do you trust him?"

Kyp nodded.

"Not as far as I can throw her." That was Corran, his voice punctuated by zaps as Saba advanced on him, trying to bat his longer blade aside.

Kyp made a sour face. "Horn, you can't throw anybody any distance. With the Force, anyway. This calls your judgment into question."

"Her." Luke switched off his lightsaber. "Maybe I should meet her."

Kyp deactivated his own weapon. "She's one level down. I can have her come up if you want to meet her now."

Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury(credit to ShootingNova)

All the above put Kyp as comparable, if not superior, to the HOT both combative skill and power/offensive force ability.

Kypster.

@okayalright_44: I'll be honest I really stopped being interested in Star Wars after the empire took over, the new Jedi order bores me to be honest. But I do love the old republic and I think the hero of tython could take kyp durron, it's bloodlust too. I think hero of tython a melee abilities best kyps, but the hero of tython was never forced under conditions where he had to shift black holes. But I think if necessary he could do it

@noah_ouellette:

I'll be honest I really stopped being interested in Star Wars after the empire took over, the new Jedi order bores me to be honest.

Okay? I really don't see how any of your dislikes or likes about a certain Era of Star Wars pertains to my comments. If anything it just indicates a bias that leaves your argument falling short.

But I do love the old republic and I think the hero of tython could take kyp durron, it's bloodlust too. I think hero of tython a melee abilities best kyps,

Your bias towards a character is irrelevant in discussions like these where we're trying to use objectivity to determine the victor.

Why? Because just saying he can, isn't proof or any evidence to substantiate that assessment. I just gave you feats of Kyp that show he's comparable, if not better than The HOT in combat with his sparring Luke, Mara Jade, and killing several Von warriors in saber combat..

Now it's up to you show me why HOT" stomps" when he evidently doesn't. Don't use appeal to ignorance fallacies and circle jerk arguments. If you don't know about a character or have bias towards a certain one then you comments are invalid.

but the hero of tython was never forced under conditions where he had to shift black holes. But I think if necessary he could do it

Kyp's shown other feats out side the black hole one, like TKing the Sun Crusher and tossing a large space freighter and using it as weapon. And you've yet to prove why how/why HOT's power could be capable, or comparable to such with a showings of his own ability.

And if you have nothing supporting HOT winning and you're just basing your opinion on bias as well as misinformation then there is no point in discussing this with you.

Durron.

Kyp Durron is psycopath. Hero of Tython slaughters him and defeats him hard in lightsaber combat. Durron, when he begins to fail, starts torture to Hero of Tython with Force. He brutally murders him then. 7/10 Durron, 3/10 HoT if HoT cuts this scum head off before he comes to an idea of using Force.

Nobody is stomping. Kyp's technical martial feats are relatively limited, so the HoT gets a decisive edge in that area, but the reverse is true for Force power. I am normally more favorable towards the more skilful duelist, but in this case, the edge in power is larger, so it could go either way.

@shootingnova: Hero of Tython can stomping because Kyp is usually fighting lightsaber, then he uses the Force. He uses the Force very often however and he is intelligent (Intelligence 16, Wisdom 15, Charisma 18). He will notice he is losing and unleash Force, and Hero of Tython can't do anything about it.

@caseiden: So what? HoT is not so far above Kyp that he would immediately stomp him in a blade contest, and neither would Kyp do that to HoT in a contest of the Force.

HOT beat Vitiate. Kyp doesn't compare.

@lamlam: He had the help of T3 to at least a very minor extent, and just beating Vitiate is not a means of outclassing Kyp, because they don't fight in any remotely similar way. All HoT has to do is be comparably powerful such that he can avoid being beaten by Vitiate's powers, and then beat him in close combat (let's be honest, Vitiate was actually dumb enough to walk into HoT's lightsaber). Beating Vitiate is an impressive feat, of course, but not one without context, and not one that automatically allows him to outclass Kyp Durron, especially since Kyp is more powerful telekinetic than Vitiate is by showings, and actually has decent physical showings and skill feats.

@shootingnova: HOT being comparably powerful to Vitiate makes him vastly more powerful than Kyp. The Emperor possessed the advantage of a nexus (IIRC), which allowed him to handle Revan fairly comfortably. And Revan certainly has the Force feats to compare to Kyp.

@lamlam: In the Force? Yes. Telekinetically? No. HoT could be considerably more powerful than Revan at best, not anymore. Kyp Durron is also considerably more powerful than Revan at least, especially when regarding telekinesis, and so the idea that HoT could be "vastly" more powerful than Kyp just because he compares to Vitiate (which Kyp does as well) is preposterous.

And the Emperor was also weakened, not just on a nexus during that fight.

@shootingnova: Kyp isn't more powerful than Revan, especially not ''considerably''. And he definitely doesn't compare to Vitiate, that's absurd. And why are you focusing so much on TK? If HOT is powerful enough not to get TK'ed by Vitiate, Kyp isn't doing anything to him.

@lamlam: He was powerful enough to not get ragdolled. He wasn't powerful enough to stop himself from getting shoved backwards by an injured Vitiate. There is a difference.

And yes, Kyp is more powerful than Revan. Manipulating black hole singularities generated by dovin basals, displaying the endurance at the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy and still being able to freeze his bodily functions, and calling down Lightning via AE to instantly slay Leviathans is in excess of any showing Revan has ever displayed, in large part due to the fact by reasonable inference, Kyp has still never really reached his prime. He just doesn't have much of an appearance in the Legacy era, which is part of the reason as to why it sucks. In any event, it should be reasonable to submit that Kyp continued to grow in the Legacy era, considering his power is likely comparable to that of, say, Plagueis's, who was growing in the Force for over a century.

I'm focusing on TK because it's the most widely used power in combat?

@shootingnova: He was powerful enough to not get ragdolled. He wasn't powerful enough to stop himself from getting shoved backwards by an injured HoT. There is a difference.

This bit confused me. Of whom are you speaking? Vitiate?

And yes, Kyp is more powerful than Revan. Manipulating black hole singularities generated by dovin basals, displaying the endurance at the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy and still being able to freeze his bodily functions, and calling down Lightning via AE to instantly slay Leviathans is in excess of any showing Revan has ever displayed

And Revan casually threw around several asteroids, absorbed and deflected Nyriss' Lightning (which was capable of shredding her own Barrier and then disintegrating her, and per The Ultimate Visual Guide, even the most powerful Jedi struggle to deflect Lightning), stretched out his Force senses across the entire galaxy to search for the Exile, utilized Heal to heal his injuries caused by the Emperor's lightning (which was considerably more powerful than Nyriss', on a dark side nexus), appeared to induce fear into Imperial Soldiers, resisted Vitiate's telepathic attempts at gaining information out of him, and so on. But I'm not willing to discuss what's better and what's not (since that will get us nowhere), so moving on. Some of I should probably credit to @darthant66 for future reference.

in large part due to the fact by reasonable inference, Kyp has still never really reached his prime. He just doesn't have much of an appearance in the Legacy era, which is part of the reason as to why it sucks. In any event, it should be reasonable to submit that Kyp continued to grow in the Legacy era, considering his power is likely comparable to that of, say, Plagueis's, who was growing in the Force for over a century.

Sure, except it has been outright confirmed that Muur was the most powerful Force user at the time of Legacy, with Krayt close behind. Do they compare to Vitiate too? No, neither do.

@lamlam:

Sorry, I wrote HoT for some reason instead of Vitiate. I meant that HoT was powerful enough to not get ragdolled, but he was shoved back by an injured Vitiate.

2. And Revan casually threw around several asteroids, absorbed and deflected Nyriss' Lightning (which was capable of shredding her own Barrier and then disintegrating her, and per The Ultimate Visual Guide, even the most powerful Jedi struggle to deflect Lightning), stretched out his Force senses across the entire galaxy to search for the Exile, utilized Heal to heal his injuries caused by the Emperor's lightning (which was considerably more powerful than Nyriss', on a dark side nexus), appeared to induce fear into Imperial Soldiers, resisted Vitiate's telepathic attempts at gaining information out of him, and so on. But I'm not willing to discuss what's better and what's not (since that will get us nowhere), so moving on. Some of I should probably credit to @darthant66 for future reference.

I'm well aware of Revan's feats, which I cited in various threads. That doesn't compete with manipulating pseudo-black hole singularities, or slaying Leviathans instantly with Alter Environment, or snapping your own bones and then surviving on Morichro, telekinetically wielding space freighters as weapons, or hurling Jedi across entire hangars effortlessly. Or being the most powerful Jedi Luke has ever known since his OT years, being the most powerful of all of Luke's students (some of whom are very comparable to Revan). Or giving energy to lethargic characters, creating memories in others and then erasing them, etc.

And called down mostly meteoroids, not asteroids. Those are too small to be asteroids. There might have been a few asteroids, but they weren't too big.

If anything, we can use powerscaling to determine how powerful they are, or something similar. For instance, when Revan was relearning the Jedi ways in KotOR, he required a meditative trance to suspend and levitate a pair of chairs and a datapad. By comparison, during the genesis of his own training, Kyp was performing handstands and lifting fallen trees and boulders simultaneously, which is clearly a superior showing. Then we also consider the fact that Revan was just relearning the ways of the Force (not developing his power) and still had the power of previous incarnations, whereas Kyp was legitimately learning to use the Force.

Sure, except it has been outright confirmed that Muur was the most powerful Force user at the time of Legacy, with Krayt close behind. Do they compare to Vitiate too? No, neither do.

That was referring to the Legacy comics, not the LotF/FotJ era I was speaking of. Kyp would be dead by the time of those comics.

Unless, of course, you wish to contend that the two of them are more powerful than Luke or Caedus or Abeloth.

On a side note, this is morals off, so Kyp might use Drain (which sourcebooks confirm that he knows) for one or two rounds, to give him the edge.

Kyp.

Sorry, I wrote HoT for some reason instead of Vitiate. I meant that HoT was powerful enough to not get ragdolled, but he was shoved back by an injured Vitiate.

And Vitiate is really powerful. Just by drawing on some of his power, the Imperial Guards were able to resist Revan's TK pretty well.

That doesn't compete with manipulating pseudo-black hole singularities, or slaying Leviathans instantly with Alter Environment, or snapping your own bones and then surviving on Morichro, telekinetically wielding space freighters as weapons, or hurling Jedi across entire hangars effortlessly. Or being the most powerful Jedi Luke has ever known since his OT years, being the most powerful of all of Luke's students (some of whom are very comparable to Revan). Or giving energy to lethargic characters, creating memories in others and then erasing them, etc.

How are Revan's feats not comparable? All of those feats for Kyp are just examples of him using specific powers at a grand scale, just like with Revan's feats. But I believe that Revan is more varied in terms of knowledge of the Force (because of his past as a Sith), which, technically, would make him more masterful of it. You have no way to compare any of those feats for Kyp to Revan's feats because the powers being used aren't the same (for just about all of them, at least).

That was referring to the Legacy comics, not the LotF/FotJ era I was speaking of. Kyp would be dead by the time of those comics.

I figured, but wanted to be sure, because that would just have been ridiculous.

Unless, of course, you wish to contend that the two of them are more powerful than Luke or Caedus or Abeloth.

Of course not.

On a side note, this is morals off, so Kyp might use Drain (which sourcebooks confirm that he knows) for one or two rounds, to give him the edge.

Do you have a quote?

On a side note of mine, is that really what the Hero of Tython looks like?

@lamlam: Pleas reply to me, next time.

And Vitiate is really powerful. Just by drawing on some of his power, the Imperial Guards were able to resist Revan's TK pretty well.

On a potent dark side nexus.

How are Revan's feats not comparable? All of those feats for Kyp are just examples of him using specific powers at a grand scale, just like with Revan's feats. But I believe that Revan is more varied in terms of knowledge of the Force (because of his past as a Sith), which, technically, would make him more masterful of it. You have no way to compare any of those feats for Kyp to Revan's feats because the powers being used aren't the same (for just about all of them, at least).

Kyp has more feats, I just listed his most impressive ones.

Yes, I can compare them, because a number of them are the same power (ie. Telekinesis). And even if they aren't, the sheer scale of the showings are usually skewered in Kyp's favor. That being said, Kyp is clearly the much more powerful telekinetic. Other areas? Questionable.

I never said they aren't comparable. I said his feats don't compete with Kyp's, not in the sense that they don't compare, but in the sense that they don't have a chance to try and outperform Kyp's showings, or frankly, even rival them.

Do you have a quote?

I have a scan on my respect thread.

On a side note of mine, is that really what the Hero of Tython looks like?

No. He has no canonically defined appearance yet. In fact, it's not even confirmed to be a male or female.

@shootingnova: Sorry. But I wasn't notified that you replied either.

On a potent dark side nexus.

That's true. But Vitiate is better than Revan on neutral ground as well.

Yes, I can compare them, because a number of them are the same power (ie. Telekinesis).

Which is why I said ''for just about all of them'', meaning there are one or two we can compare.

And even if they aren't, the sheer scale of the showings are usually skewered in Kyp's favor.

Please tell me how you can define this when the powers are not the same. The sheer scale of Force techniques are impossible to compare unless they're the same technique. Revan using Heal, even on a fairly small scale, still makes him a master of something that Kyp isn't (unless Kyp has used Heal before, but that's irrelevant, since Heal was just an example).

never said they aren't comparable. I said his feats don't compete with Kyp's, not in the sense that they don't compare, but in the sense that they don't have a chance to try and outperform Kyp's showings, or frankly, even rival them.

''Rival'' is basically a synonym for ''compare'', so I'm not sure what point you're trying to bring forth.

I have a scan on my respect thread.

I just checked it, and that's not canon. RPG statistics are not canon. If that was the case, then Mace knew Technometry (want me to bring it up in the other thread with Grievous vs. Leia and Saba? I'll respond to that tomorrow, by the way).

@shootingnova: yeah, none of the class stories in SWTOR will have canonically confirmed anything. Otherwise all the players would be ticked off. They can reference the events involving them in par within the novels, but give no real detailed information that'd ruin the players experience.

WoW never had that problem because the PC's were never important to the story anyway and everyone is just treated as fodder until a Main NPC showed up to get the job done.

@lamlam: Sure, but I actually clicked the reply button, at least.

That's true. But Vitiate is better than Revan on neutral ground as well.

Yes, but not with such a chasm between them as it was in the novel, since the novel involved ambient dark side energies for Vitiate to draw upon.

Which is why I said ''for just about all of them'', meaning there are one or two we can compare.

We can compare all of them, it just involves subjectivity.

But for the ones that you do accept that we can compare, Kyp is clearly superior.

Please tell me how you can define this when the powers are not the same. The sheer scale of Force techniques are impossible to compare unless they're the same technique. Revan using Heal, even on a fairly small scale, still makes him a master of something that Kyp isn't (unless Kyp has used Heal before, but that's irrelevant, since Heal was just an example).

Yes, Kyp has used Healing powers before. In fact, Kyp was able to use the Force to keep himself alive after he crushed his own ribs and smashed his bones in his arms and legs so he could fit inside a very small escape pod of sorts.

They're not impossible to compare altogether - they're just impossible to compare without subjectivity.

''Rival'' is basically a synonym for ''compare'', so I'm not sure what point you're trying to bring forth.

Synonym does not mean that it means the same thing. By compare, I mean just that - being comparable. By rival, I meant equaling.

I just checked it, and that's not canon. RPG statistics are not canon. If that was the case, then Mace knew Technometry (want me to bring it up in the other thread with Grievous vs. Leia and Saba? I'll respond to that tomorrow, by the way).

I'm almost positive Mace has displayed a power like that somewhere - maybe in TCW.

The statistics are not canon, but after that, it says that these are some of the powers he demonstrated.

And yes, I would like you to bring it up, considering how you still haven't responded.

@shootingnova: Yes, but not with such a chasm between them as it was in the novel, since the novel involved ambient dark side energies for Vitiate to draw upon.

I know.

We can compare all of them, it just involves subjectivity.

If you want to compare all of them, go ahead. I just won't respond to that because I disagree with the premise.

But for the ones that you do accept that we can compare, Kyp is clearly superior.

Perhaps. But since Revan's limits haven't been tested, there's still some ambiguity to that claim.

Yes, Kyp has used Healing powers before. In fact, Kyp was able to use the Force to keep himself alive after he crushed his own ribs and smashed his bones in his arms and legs so he could fit inside a very small escape pod of sorts.

The Emperor's Lightning on a nexus is more destructive than broken bones. I think Revan is superior in this aspect.

Synonym does not mean that it means the same thing. By compare, I mean just that - being comparable. By rival, I meant equaling.

I'm not sure that ''rivall'' means equaling, but whatever.

I'm almost positive Mace has displayed a power like that somewhere - maybe in TCW.

If you find it, let me know.

The statistics are not canon, but after that, it says that these are some of the powers he demonstrated.

What? Rewrite this one.

And yes, I would like you to bring it up, considering how you still haven't responded.

Really? OK, I will.

@lamlam:

Perhaps. But since Revan's limits haven't been tested, there's still some ambiguity to that claim.

And neither have Kyp's.

The Emperor's Lightning on a nexus is more destructive than broken bones. I think Revan is superior in this aspect.

This is Kyp years and years and years before his prime, though, and he crushed so many of his bones that he should have been dead. It's at least a comparable feat, especially since Morichro is harder to use than Heal.

I place Revan ahead in defensive areas, but in other areas, particularly offensive ones, Kyp is definitely superior.

I'm not sure that ''rivall'' means equaling, but whatever.

It can, and I already told you what I meant by that.

What? Rewrite this one.

The scan says:

As I said, that statement was after the game mechanics, and these are real powers/aspects of powers.

@shootingnova: And neither have Kyp's.

Which makes their TK hard to compare as well. At best you could give Kyp the edge without it being substantial enough to make a difference.

This is Kyp years and years and years before his prime, though, and he crushed so many of his bones that he should have been dead. It's at least a comparable feat, especially since Morichro is harder to use than Heal.

Morichro is not even Heal, so why are we comparing the powers?

Also, that's not canon. Most of those powers are mentioned only in RPG sourcebooks.Characters in those books are assigned a lot of random powers. I don't take them at face value. Not to mention you have no way of knowing Kyp's proficiency in it even if it was canon; for all we know, he could be like Bane and need additional power just to utilize it.

@lamlam: Hardly. They both haven't been fully tested in their prime, which should negate that argument for both sides, and from their showings, Kyp's is just more powerful, and by a margin such that even if Revan was fully taxed, I severely doubt he could replicate Kyp's telekinetic showings. In fact, Karpyshyn strongly implied that Revan's maximum TK would be collapsing buildings, which he could only accomplish on his best day. That doesn't even compete with Kyp's showings.

Morichro is not even Heal, so why are we comparing the powers?

They are under similar control-based branches.

Also, that's not canon. Most of those powers are mentioned only in RPG sourcebooks.Characters in those books are assigned a lot of random powers. I don't take them at face value. Not to mention you have no way of knowing Kyp's proficiency in it even if it was canon; for all we know, he could be like Bane and need additional power just to utilize it.

I doubt it. Bane is just not even comparable to Kyp in power. That was the reason he couldn't use Drain.

@shootingnova: They both haven't been fully tested in their prime, which should negate that argument for both sides

?

This is what I just said. Neither have been fully tested so arguing that either has a substantial edge with regards to TK isn't fair.

I severely doubt he could replicate Kyp's telekinetic showings

With no basis.

In fact, Karpyshyn strongly implied that Revan's maximum TK would be collapsing buildings, which he could only accomplish on his best day.

He specifically said ''might'', which makes the entire claim dubious. And you have no idea how big the building would be. Collapsing a three story would be better than what Kyp has done.

They are under similar control-based branches.

That doesn't matter. Kyp is a master one one, Revan is a master of the other. Sure, they're related, but still different.

I doubt it. Bane is just not even comparable to Kyp in power. That was the reason he couldn't use Drain.

''Power'' is a far too broad term to use in this case. And what proof do you have? Some characters just do not possess affinity for some powers. Bane knew Drain but was not very good with it. That has nothing to do with his overall power level.

@lamlam:

1. No, I meant it negates the argument about neither of them being fully tested.

2. With basis of the fact that Revan has no comparable TK feats.

3. Don't be ridiculous. Collapsing three-stories with maximum effort on his best day is better than manipulating black hole singularities?

As for saying "might", that just means what I said - it would require maximum effort and favorable circumstances for him to do so.

4. They both fall under the area of Control. In that case, they should be comparable. Now, if it was, say, powers within Alter and Control, respectively, then yes, they can't be compared.

5. I have never heard of a character who knows but lacks affinity for Drain other than Bane, who is its weakest practitioner. Revan, Kreia, Nihilus, Krayt etc. all used it without issues. Kyp is more within their tier of power than in Bane's power tier. What the novel implied was less that Bane couldn't use Drain as a result of a lack of affinity, but a lack of sheer power.

Why cant Kyp just speedblitz him? He is way too fast for HoT.

@jedisupermaster: On what basis?

He fought with the likes of Jaina and Luke. What speed feats does HoT have?

@jedisupermaster: Blitzing several Force-sensitive Sith warriors before they could react. Kyp's only real speed feat is deflecting Class-720 freighter fire, but if you think engaging with Luke is a speed feat, then I really don't know what to say. Legacy era Luke just isn't even that fast at times, and he has a tendency to hold back.

He also fought Jaina. But ok. Maybe it isnt a speedblitz after all.