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#1 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

So, this is a team battle.

Silver Surfer and Helspont vs. Darkseid and Dr. Manhattan

Environment takes place in Watch Tower onto the Moon if necessary.

Rules:

3 Rounds in total:

1st Round:-

-Silver Surfer and Dr. Manhattan are both standard power, normal versions current

-Dr. Manhattan's visions of past, present and future can't be tampered with here...

-Darkseid is at full power, the strongest he's been

-Helspont is at full power, strongest he's ever been

-BRF not allowed in the first round

-Fight starts quarter a mile apart on the Space Station(Watch Tower)

-No prep, random encounter with NO knowledge of the other team at all

-Battle is won via Death or some kind of painful submission

-Standard attitude for everyone(no bloodlust)

-Who wins?

2nd Round:-

-Silver Surfer and Dr. Manhattan standard current levels

-Both teams have 12 hours prep time and each team knows everything about the other team

-Dr. Manhattan's visions aren't effected here like the first round

-PC Darkseid is at full power and has Anti-Life Equation in this round on top of his other abilities

-Helspont is at full power

-Fight starts from 10 feet away from each other(on Watch Tower)

-BRF is allowed here for everyone, whoever strikes first is another story

-No blood lust but nobody is pulling their punches either

-Battle is won by Death! Who wins?

-Who Wins?

3rd Round:-

-Silver Surfer and Dr. Manhattan standard current versions

-Dr. Manhattan's visions aren't effected like other rounds

-New 52 Darkseid and New 52 Helspont are used here however...feats and powers shown from new 52 are only allowed, nothing pre-52 here!

-Everyone is tossed in a team match against each other, but with Skeets from the future telling everyone in 5 minutes what everyone's power is(however NO prep, just fast briefing on the other teams powers really fast)

-Anything Goes, both teams are bloodlusted!!

-Battle is won by Death!! Who wins?

Team 1: Silver Surfer & Helspont

Vs.

Team 2: Darkseid & Dr. Manhattan

#2 Posted by AllStarSuperman (22229 posts) - - Show Bio

team one. helspont is more powerful than darkseid in the new 52. and im pretty sure SS can handle Dr Manhattan. I think Manhattans out of his league.

#3 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@AllStarSuperman said:

team one. helspont is more powerful than darkseid in the new 52. and im pretty sure SS can handle Dr Manhattan. I think Manhattans out of his league.

Interesting post, but keep in mind that is only the 3rd round of new 52. The first 2 rounds are not 52 DS and Helspont but previous versions :)

But thanks for posting man :)

#4 Posted by New_World_Order (13290 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#5 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Bump.

Thanks lol

#6 Posted by New_World_Order (13290 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Bump.

Thanks lol

No problem, lol

I say team 1 wins. Any one on team 1 can beat anyone on team 2.

#7 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

I think SS and Dr. Manhattan are evenly matched, but not sure about Helspont vs. Darkseid honestly..

#8 Posted by GhostRider2 (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus:SS would win against him there is no reason why he shouldn't win and im sure Helspont can win too against Darkseid.

#9 Posted by NeonGameWave (8005 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

#10 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

Doctor Manhattan Already knows he's going to lose this fight.

#11 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr manhatttan is stronger than SS

#12 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkelf35 said:

Dr manhatttan is stronger than SS

Not according to feats.

#13 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5138 posts) - - Show Bio

SS would whoop Manhatten. Then it will be Helspont an SS vs Darkseid. Team 1, though Darkseid will give them a hell of a fight.

#14 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 and Round 2 go to Darkseid with no effort. A full powered Darkseid solos effortlessly. With the Anti-Life Equation he would just warp reality and turn them into mindless drones. Round 3 goes to Team 1 because New-52 Darkseid hasn't done much. I don't know why Manhattan is even in this match he has no feats that suggest he could hang with any of these people.

#15 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhostRider2, Feats aren't everything, Dr. Manhattan has really shown he's capable of doing just about everything SS can in terms of what we've seen, and he came back from a planned death from Adrian and we didn't even see him go all out.... I think a lot of people are overestimated SS or underestimating Dr. M seriously...I'd wager they're equal.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Round 1 and Round 2 go to Darkseid with no effort. A full powered Darkseid solos effortlessly. With the Anti-Life Equation he would just warp reality and turn them into mindless drones. Round 3 goes to Team 1 because New-52 Darkseid hasn't done much. I don't know why Manhattan is even in this match he has no feats that suggest he could hang with any of these people.

Was wondering about this myself after I read into Darkness Saga, DS seemed no joke lol.

#16 Posted by Equonox (966 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 rounds 1 and 2 - PC Darkseid w/ ALE would be pretty much unbeatable by anyone here. "Strongest he's ever been" for round 1, to me, implies PC as well, which even w/out ALE is still way out of Surfer/Helspont's league.

Team 1 stomps in round 3, current version of Helspont seems a lot more powerful than Darkseid. Surfer can take Manhattan in all 3 rounds, but in rounds 1 and 2 wouldn't beat Darkseid.

#17 Posted by dondave (38560 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 rounds 1 and 2 - PC Darkseid w/ ALE would be pretty much unbeatable by anyone here. "Strongest he's ever been" for round 1, to me, implies PC as well, which even w/out ALE is still way out of Surfer/Helspont's league.

Team 1 stomps in round 3, current version of Helspont seems a lot more powerful than Darkseid. Surfer can take Manhattan in all 3 rounds, but in rounds 1 and 2 wouldn't beat Darkseid.

Perfectly said

#18 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree on the Helspont/DS points in the new 52 versions but overall Dr. Manhatta and SS are roughly equal.

#19 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

I agree on the Helspont/DS points in the new 52 versions but overall Dr. Manhatta and SS are roughly equal.

Dr Manhattan is far more powerful, he doesn't have the feats, but he said himself that he can change almost anything, and even create life. Pretty sure he could just remove the power cosmic from Silver surfer and turn him into a human.

#20 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@Vaeternus said:

I agree on the Helspont/DS points in the new 52 versions but overall Dr. Manhatta and SS are roughly equal.

Dr Manhattan is far more powerful, he doesn't have the feats, but he said himself that he can change almost anything, and even create life. Pretty sure he could just remove the power cosmic from Silver surfer and turn him into a human.

That's a good point, if anything I agree. This is why I was saying we haven't seen what Dr. Manhattan can REALLY do when going all out lol but apparently all of what you said and then some. He was "killed" by Adrian yet came back as if to say yeah that's not going to work or perhaps Dr. Manhattan can interrupt his power from Galactus since that's where he gets it from the power cosmic from Galactus. Dr. Manhattan is his own power, he doesn't need power from someone else either unlike SS.

#21 Posted by GhostRider2 (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@Vaeternus said:

I agree on the Helspont/DS points in the new 52 versions but overall Dr. Manhatta and SS are roughly equal.

Dr Manhattan is far more powerful, he doesn't have the feats, but he said himself that he can change almost anything, and even create life. Pretty sure he could just remove the power cosmic from Silver surfer and turn him into a human.

I hope you are joking SS is a level above him.

#22 Posted by comicace3 (6051 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm I'd say team 1 cuz helspont is pretty powerful and I wouldn't mess with a blood lusted surfer. Then there is darkseid and Manhattan....

OK: Team 1, Team 2, then Team 1 again for the three rounds...

#23 Posted by TERMINATORFAN (1250 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Manhattan stomos Helspont and Silver Surfer............ real hard..........

#24 Posted by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

Until someone can convince me that Manhattan is a serious threat without hyperbole or theories, he's not anywhere near SS level. Darkseid could solo in round 2 and maybe one, but team 1 should win 3.

#25 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

#26 Posted by GhostRider2 (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus: he is good man but what he can do SS can do better.

#27 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhostRider2 said:

@Vaeternus: he is good man but what he can do SS can do better.

IDK, I think it really depends. The thing that makes it tougher for Dr. M is the things he says he can do (some of which) we haven't seen him do yet on film or in the comics but considering his powers and him coming back from "apparent death" can do anything he wants with atoms, matter etc is pretty damn impressive. Is all I'm saying. I'm not sure SS can do everything better then Dr. Manhattan considering what he's capable of, a lot of stuff that SS does daily Dr. Manhattan can do too.

#28 Posted by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

That logic is flawed within itself. Btw, his "godly" powers can be replicated by anyone with vast supernatural or cosmic powers. Hell, any competent molecular manipulator could, which is a large part of Manhattan's powers.

@Vaeternus said:

@GhostRider2 said:

@Vaeternus: he is good man but what he can do SS can do better.

IDK, I think it really depends. The thing that makes it tougher for Dr. M is the things he says he can do (some of which) we haven't seen him do yet on film or in the comics but considering his powers and him coming back from "apparent death" can do anything he wants with atoms, matter etc is pretty damn impressive. Is all I'm saying. I'm not sure SS can do everything better then Dr. Manhattan considering what he's capable of, a lot of stuff that SS does daily Dr. Manhattan can do too.

....

Do you really know what Silver Surfer is capable of?

#29 Posted by darklord_apoc (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@AllStarSuperman said:

team one. helspont is more powerful than darkseid in the new 52. and im pretty sure SS can handle Dr Manhattan. I think Manhattans out of his league.

How if D.S has ALE? What is Helsponts feats and what has he done? Do you have scans?

#30 Posted by darklord_apoc (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

But hun you cant go by what he says because one of D.S clones also stated that real D.S was omnipotence but we all know he can be beat and has been, so we can not go on what a charactor says they can do unless they have done it.

#31 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy, yes I'm aware perhaps you're unaware of what Dr. Manhattan is truly capable of? My logic isn't flawed yours is if you think Dr. M can't do anything here considering he came back from death instantly would imply he can control not just others but his own molecular structure to an atomic level...Notice, Adrian THOUGHT he could kill Dr. Manhattan but did it? No. I rest my case and keep in mind Adrian is a hell of a lot smarter then SS is, possibly Dr. Manhattan do you not think he'd calculate that possibility prior? lol come on plus Dr. M can see the near future...which you forget. SS unlike Adrian has no knowledge of Dr. M's weaknesses which are very few if any I may add.

@darklord_apoc said:

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

But hun you cant go by what he says because one of D.S clones also stated that real D.S was omnipotence but we all know he can be beat and has been, so we can not go on what a charactor says they can do unless they have done it.

Well the difference is a big one though, you see while you're right about the DS avatar stating the real DS was omnipotent(which may be up for debate, he's immortal but not sure about omnipotent)

But in this case you see Dr. Manhattan knows what he can do, he's not an avatar of himself he is himself lol. Plus he has done feats which would imply such from transportation to coming back from death so I don't think Dr. Manhattan is a liar or anything plus, consider this. DS is an arrogant god, where as Dr. Manhattan is an extremely smart scientist with godlike powers on top of it lol so I'd wager he's correct in his theories.

#32 Edited by Wyldsong (5689 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@cooljammy, yes I'm aware perhaps you're unaware of what Dr. Manhattan is truly capable of? My logic isn't flawed yours is if you think Dr. M can't do anything here considering he came back from death instantly would imply he can control not just others but his own molecular structure to an atomic level...Notice, Adrian THOUGHT he could kill Dr. Manhattan but did it? No. I rest my case and keep in mind Adrian is a hell of a lot smarter then SS is, possibly Dr. Manhattan do you not think he'd calculate that possibility prior? lol come on plus Dr. M can see the near future...which you forget. SS unlike Adrian has no knowledge of Dr. M's weaknesses which are very few if any I may add.

@darklord_apoc said:

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

But hun you cant go by what he says because one of D.S clones also stated that real D.S was omnipotence but we all know he can be beat and has been, so we can not go on what a charactor says they can do unless they have done it.

Well the difference is a big one though, you see while you're right about the DS avatar stating the real DS was omnipotent(which may be up for debate, he's immortal but not sure about omnipotent)

But in this case you see Dr. Manhattan knows what he can do, he's not an avatar of himself he is himself lol. Plus he has done feats which would imply such from transportation to coming back from death so I don't think Dr. Manhattan is a liar or anything plus, consider this. DS is an arrogant god, where as Dr. Manhattan is an extremely smart scientist with godlike powers on top of it lol so I'd wager he's correct in his theories.

He has only ever come back from one, single thing: removal of his intrinsic field. It does not make him immune to death, it just makes him immune to intrinsic field removal. That is it. You cannot possibly prove otherwise, as you have no further proof other than he had his intrinsic field removed and came back from that one thing.

The most he has ever done with anothers molecular structure is to disintegrate baseline humans (unlike Surfer who has actually disintegrated others and messed their genetic structures taking away their powers and such). Manhattan could not even cure cancer. I won't even touch the Adrian thing...good luck proving that one.

Manhattan does not see the near future. He is a time traveler along his own timeline (aware of all periods in this timeline at once) since his transformation and cannot change events without fracturing quantum reality, which creates equally real realities based on choices made (so even if he changed time so he could win a fight, then he doesn't really win as there will be a reality where he wins and loses, both real and valid, thanks to the fracture), and is not all that useful since his actions almost ended the world by his fiddling with the time stream and changing one event: He does not have control of that ability, and thus it is worthless in combat.

He is strictly god-like in a world where people have no powers, and is not all that impressive compared to mainstream Marvel and DC. He does not have enough feats to back up your claims, and you are placing a no limits fallacy argument on him here. Excluding the Before Watchmen stuff (which isn't much other than the quantum reality business), this is just about everything he has done: http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/wyldsong/dr-manhattan-the-truth-behind-the-feats-aka-why-so-blue/87-61001/

Compared to Surfer's feats in the areas of matter manipulation and so on, Manhattan pales in comparison (even the Watchmen series limits his destructive capabilities to far below planetary level -- which Surfer is far above). He has an exceedingly limited number of showings, and your claims of being godlike in comparison to any of the characters listed in this scenario will be difficult for you to prove due to this.

#33 Edited by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@cooljammy, yes I'm aware perhaps you're unaware of what Dr. Manhattan is truly capable of? My logic isn't flawed yours is if you think Dr. M can't do anything here considering he came back from death instantly would imply he can control not just others but his own molecular structure to an atomic level...Notice, Adrian THOUGHT he could kill Dr. Manhattan but did it? No. I rest my case and keep in mind Adrian is a hell of a lot smarter then SS is, possibly Dr. Manhattan do you not think he'd calculate that possibility prior? lol come on plus Dr. M can see the near future...which you forget. SS unlike Adrian has no knowledge of Dr. M's weaknesses which are very few if any I may add.

@darklord_apoc said:

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

But hun you cant go by what he says because one of D.S clones also stated that real D.S was omnipotence but we all know he can be beat and has been, so we can not go on what a charactor says they can do unless they have done it.

Well the difference is a big one though, you see while you're right about the DS avatar stating the real DS was omnipotent(which may be up for debate, he's immortal but not sure about omnipotent)

But in this case you see Dr. Manhattan knows what he can do, he's not an avatar of himself he is himself lol. Plus he has done feats which would imply such from transportation to coming back from death so I don't think Dr. Manhattan is a liar or anything plus, consider this. DS is an arrogant god, where as Dr. Manhattan is an extremely smart scientist with godlike powers on top of it lol so I'd wager he's correct in his theories.

*sigh

Please point out where my logic is flawed. You basically stated that "if he stated he can do it, then I believe it lol." If I told you I could eat the sun, would you believe that even if I don't have the feats to prove it?

Well, pretty much cover everything I was going to say, so there isn't much to add on. Manhattan's feats contradict all of this speculation about him having "godlike" powers or unlimited potential.

And if you are aware of what SS can do, since you claim you do, then you would know he has a little something called "Cosmic Awareness." Check out a SS respect thread and see for yourself. I already know about Manhattan, I've read the comic and seen the movie, so I don't need any further education on him mostly. I would say that these theories about him being godlike or unlimited, when he's a low to mid level herald at best, never gets old though.

#34 Edited by Wyldsong (5689 posts) - - Show Bio

@cooljammy18 said:

@Vaeternus said:

@cooljammy, yes I'm aware perhaps you're unaware of what Dr. Manhattan is truly capable of? My logic isn't flawed yours is if you think Dr. M can't do anything here considering he came back from death instantly would imply he can control not just others but his own molecular structure to an atomic level...Notice, Adrian THOUGHT he could kill Dr. Manhattan but did it? No. I rest my case and keep in mind Adrian is a hell of a lot smarter then SS is, possibly Dr. Manhattan do you not think he'd calculate that possibility prior? lol come on plus Dr. M can see the near future...which you forget. SS unlike Adrian has no knowledge of Dr. M's weaknesses which are very few if any I may add.

@darklord_apoc said:

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

But hun you cant go by what he says because one of D.S clones also stated that real D.S was omnipotence but we all know he can be beat and has been, so we can not go on what a charactor says they can do unless they have done it.

Well the difference is a big one though, you see while you're right about the DS avatar stating the real DS was omnipotent(which may be up for debate, he's immortal but not sure about omnipotent)

But in this case you see Dr. Manhattan knows what he can do, he's not an avatar of himself he is himself lol. Plus he has done feats which would imply such from transportation to coming back from death so I don't think Dr. Manhattan is a liar or anything plus, consider this. DS is an arrogant god, where as Dr. Manhattan is an extremely smart scientist with godlike powers on top of it lol so I'd wager he's correct in his theories.

*sigh

Please point out where my logic is flawed. You basically stated that "if he stated he can do it, then I believe it lol." If I told you I could eat the sun, would you believe that even if I don't have the feats to prove it?

Well, @ Wyldsong pretty cover everything I was going to say, so there isn't much to add on. Manhattan's feats contradict all of this speculation about him having "godlike" powers or unlimited potential.

I am pretty much seeing the same no limits fallacy argument for Manhattan I have seen a million times over=)

There is a reason I have cataloged just about everything he has done, it makes it easier for everyone to see just what it is he has really been shown to do.

#35 Edited by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong said:

@cooljammy18 said:

@Vaeternus said:

@cooljammy, yes I'm aware perhaps you're unaware of what Dr. Manhattan is truly capable of? My logic isn't flawed yours is if you think Dr. M can't do anything here considering he came back from death instantly would imply he can control not just others but his own molecular structure to an atomic level...Notice, Adrian THOUGHT he could kill Dr. Manhattan but did it? No. I rest my case and keep in mind Adrian is a hell of a lot smarter then SS is, possibly Dr. Manhattan do you not think he'd calculate that possibility prior? lol come on plus Dr. M can see the near future...which you forget. SS unlike Adrian has no knowledge of Dr. M's weaknesses which are very few if any I may add.

@darklord_apoc said:

@Vaeternus said:

I think people are seriously underestimating Dr. Manhattan lol. If the guy said he can do something I'm pretty sure he can do it...it's like, the other 3 are taken seriously except Dr. Manhattan? What is he a scrub? lol A human? No...the guy has godly powers which have to be considered.

But hun you cant go by what he says because one of D.S clones also stated that real D.S was omnipotence but we all know he can be beat and has been, so we can not go on what a charactor says they can do unless they have done it.

Well the difference is a big one though, you see while you're right about the DS avatar stating the real DS was omnipotent(which may be up for debate, he's immortal but not sure about omnipotent)

But in this case you see Dr. Manhattan knows what he can do, he's not an avatar of himself he is himself lol. Plus he has done feats which would imply such from transportation to coming back from death so I don't think Dr. Manhattan is a liar or anything plus, consider this. DS is an arrogant god, where as Dr. Manhattan is an extremely smart scientist with godlike powers on top of it lol so I'd wager he's correct in his theories.

*sigh

Please point out where my logic is flawed. You basically stated that "if he stated he can do it, then I believe it lol." If I told you I could eat the sun, would you believe that even if I don't have the feats to prove it?

Well, @ Wyldsong pretty cover everything I was going to say, so there isn't much to add on. Manhattan's feats contradict all of this speculation about him having "godlike" powers or unlimited potential.

I am pretty much seeing the same no limits fallacy argument for Manhattan I have seen a million times over=)

There is a reason I have cataloged just about everything he has done, it makes it easier for everyone to see just what it is he has really been shown to do.

I know. The same arguments over and over again. I don't get how some would even go to lengths and say he flat out "stomps" SS, but I try not to bother with them. Thanks for keeping that catalog, really helpful in these situations.

Hope I don't sound like a dick or anything to anyone reading. I probably do, but it's just annoying to see the constant wank that goes on.

#36 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong, I never said Dr. Manhattan would "stomp" anyone just want to get that out there, but nor did I say SS would stomp Dr. Manhattan either. I think personally it would be close.

Of course SS has more feats naturally due to being a far older character and being in a hell of a lot more comics then Dr. Man, however that being said I still feel Dr. Manhattan is a key player here. He's not to be underestimated and his own timeline or not he can see the near future regardless. He was merely blinded due to tacylons that Adrian used via prep which still wasn't enough to beat Dr. Manhattan.

The same can be said about SS, except in MU a lot of people have "godly" powers but that doesn't take away from Dr. Manhattan any less...

I wouldn't say pales, he just doesn't have as many that doesn't mean Dr. Man can't do what SS has done though or isn't capable of going father, a lot of it is speculation but I believe Dr. Manhattan given not just his powers but his intelligence more so...

Still, that being said SS still has to deal with DS's Omega Effect combined with the ALE which will prove difficult for SS. I really don't see SS matching DS's power...

@cooljammy18,

Because you're assuming Dr. Manhattan CAN'T do something he specifically knows for a fact he can do...just because he doesn't shot it doesn't mean he can't do it. SS naturally has more feats so he has more showings of his abilities, that doesn't discredit Dr. Manhattan's abilities however...your eating the sun analogy is a ridiculous comparison considering Dr. Manhattan's theories back his powers considering molecules, matter manipulation at an atomic level. There are things Dr. M can do that SS can't and SS can do that Dr Manhattan can't. That being said, Dr. Manhattan will still have to be dealt with as well as DS's power. Well, people think Superman has "godlike" powers so I think it's safe to say Dr. M and SS have them too, know? Yes, cosmic awareness would help him to counter Dr. M's future visions/near. The movie really doesn't do Manhattan a justice to his full potential, hell even the comic to a degree but obviously he's capable of a lot more that's my point. I would consider Dr. M the same at least with SS just implemented differently. Unlike SS however, Dr. M is his own power source. Galactus gives SS his power...via the power cosmic.

#37 Edited by Wyldsong (5689 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@Wyldsong, I never said Dr. Manhattan would "stomp" anyone just want to get that out there, but nor did I say SS would stomp Dr. Manhattan either. I think personally it would be close.

Of course SS has more feats naturally due to being a far older character and being in a hell of a lot more comics then Dr. Man, however that being said I still feel Dr. Manhattan is a key player here. He's not to be underestimated and his own timeline or not he can see the near future regardless. He was merely blinded due to tacylons that Adrian used via prep which still wasn't enough to beat Dr. Manhattan.

The same can be said about SS, except in MU a lot of people have "godly" powers but that doesn't take away from Dr. Manhattan any less...

I wouldn't say pales, he just doesn't have as many that doesn't mean Dr. Man can't do what SS has done though or isn't capable of going father, a lot of it is speculation but I believe Dr. Manhattan given not just his powers but his intelligence more so...

Still, that being said SS still has to deal with DS's Omega Effect combined with the ALE which will prove difficult for SS. I really don't see SS matching DS's power...

@cooljammy18,

Because you're assuming Dr. Manhattan CAN'T do something he specifically knows for a fact he can do...just because he doesn't shot it doesn't mean he can't do it. SS naturally has more feats so he has more showings of his abilities, that doesn't discredit Dr. Manhattan's abilities however...your eating the sun analogy is a ridiculous comparison considering Dr. Manhattan's theories back his powers considering molecules, matter manipulation at an atomic level. There are things Dr. M can do that SS can't and SS can do that Dr Manhattan can't. That being said, Dr. Manhattan will still have to be dealt with as well as DS's power. Well, people think Superman has "godlike" powers so I think it's safe to say Dr. M and SS have them too, know? Yes, cosmic awareness would help him to counter Dr. M's future visions/near. The movie really doesn't do Manhattan a justice to his full potential, hell even the comic to a degree but obviously he's capable of a lot more that's my point. I would consider Dr. M the same at least with SS just implemented differently. Unlike SS however, Dr. M is his own power source. Galactus gives SS his power...via the power cosmic.

What takes away from Manhattan is his utter lack of anything proving he is a credible threat against people of this power level. You want to prove he is a credible threat, bring something to the table other than your ideas on how powerful he is. Prove it with some showings. You can't just take the idea that he he is a matter manipulator and then assume he is "godlike". Spiderman has lifted a tank before and has super-strength...does that mean he should be placed in the same strength class as Superman because they have a similar power? You see, there is this idea of varying levels of skill and power within the world of comic books, and not everyone with a similar power is created equal to others with that power. Manhattan does not have the showings to say he is equal to SS. His showings are pretty low in scale compared to most prominent characters with a similar power set.

As for this: "not he can see the near future regardless."

Have you actually read Before Watchmen? He is not a precog, he doesn't see the near future. Again, the ability is useless. He doesn't change what he has lived, and with very good reason. We don't have to worry about cosmic awareness countering this ability, because if you have read Before Watchmen, you would realize it is worthless. He doesn't just see the future and change things. He has already lived that future (the only thing forcing him completely into the present being tachyons), and if he changes it, then he fractures reality, creating equally real realities where he changed events and realities where he didn't change events. Before Watchmen gives us the reason he doesn't change time -- it's because things get screwed up and he loses control of things. Even if he did change time to try and win, then in one reality he wins, and in another he loses, and things fracturing from there.

"a lot of it is speculation"

And this seals your argument. You are speculating on things you have not seen and cannot prove. You are placing a no limits fallacy argument on Manhattan based on what you believe. Without proof, you don't have much ground to stand on here. Yes, based on the actual proof we do have, he does pale in comparison. I have proof to back my position on Manhattan. My proof is the lack of proof from limited showings -- which I have laid out for you, and no real high end showings on his part. His matter manipulation feats pale in comparison to SS, end of story.

You want to change peoples minds on Manhattan? Bring us some proof, not speculation. And I'll save you some time: the proof you seek is not there.

Argue it and disagree all you want, but until you bring some proof to the table to back your ideas, then you really don't have an argument. Speculation without some factual showings does not account for much here. He is not anywhere near the level of SS in terms of power, ability, and showings. You say otherwise? Prove it.

#38 Edited by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@Wyldsong, I never said Dr. Manhattan would "stomp" anyone just want to get that out there, but nor did I say SS would stomp Dr. Manhattan either. I think personally it would be close.

Of course SS has more feats naturally due to being a far older character and being in a hell of a lot more comics then Dr. Man, however that being said I still feel Dr. Manhattan is a key player here. He's not to be underestimated and his own timeline or not he can see the near future regardless. He was merely blinded due to tacylons that Adrian used via prep which still wasn't enough to beat Dr. Manhattan.

The same can be said about SS, except in MU a lot of people have "godly" powers but that doesn't take away from Dr. Manhattan any less...

I wouldn't say pales, he just doesn't have as many that doesn't mean Dr. Man can't do what SS has done though or isn't capable of going father, a lot of it is speculation but I believe Dr. Manhattan given not just his powers but his intelligence more so...

Still, that being said SS still has to deal with DS's Omega Effect combined with the ALE which will prove difficult for SS. I really don't see SS matching DS's power...

@cooljammy18,

Because you're assuming Dr. Manhattan CAN'T do something he specifically knows for a fact he can do...just because he doesn't shot it doesn't mean he can't do it. SS naturally has more feats so he has more showings of his abilities, that doesn't discredit Dr. Manhattan's abilities however...your eating the sun analogy is a ridiculous comparison considering Dr. Manhattan's theories back his powers considering molecules, matter manipulation at an atomic level. There are things Dr. M can do that SS can't and SS can do that Dr Manhattan can't. That being said, Dr. Manhattan will still have to be dealt with as well as DS's power. Well, people think Superman has "godlike" powers so I think it's safe to say Dr. M and SS have them too, know? Yes, cosmic awareness would help him to counter Dr. M's future visions/near. The movie really doesn't do Manhattan a justice to his full potential, hell even the comic to a degree but obviously he's capable of a lot more that's my point. I would consider Dr. M the same at least with SS just implemented differently. Unlike SS however, Dr. M is his own power source. Galactus gives SS his power...via the power cosmic.

No, I'm assuming that he can't do something based off of the lack of feats he has, and certain instances that contradict certain speculative theories that are thrown around the internet. The purpose of the analogy was to mock your statement that you'll believe anything Manhattan claims to do based off of your own presumptions without clear evidence. I know it's ridiculous, but it has a point. SS has more feats, and better ones at that. That's a reality that we both seem to agree on.

Btw, what can Manhattan do that SS can't? The only things I can think of is enlarging himself and making clones. Don't see why SS can't replicate that, but it is what it is. SS could do A LOT of things Manhattan can't. That shouldn't even be a question here. As for Superman, people who are below him in overall power makes hyperbolic statements like him being a "god" and whatnot. The same applies to Manhattan. This point can't be perpetuated enough, but Manhattan exists in a mortal world, no one with powers to even challenge him. Of course people are going to look at him as "godlike" because there are no other like him. If you were to place him in Marvel or DC, the cosmic community in both universes would dwarf him by a HUGE margin. In these two worlds, he isn't godlike in the least. Maybe to the street-levelers or below, but he's low to mid herald at best.

The part I bolded is what we're all arguing. You yourself are putting Manhattan on a higher level than what he has shown to be. You can't say the movie and comic are doing him no justice. What you're saying is basically that the writers themselves are undermining Manhattan and your conceived view of him, having this "potential" is what he actually is. In Surfer's case, if instances of PIS were to happen that completely nullifies his past showings, in that case we could say that the writers are undermining a character because we know what that character is capable of. We would know what Surfer is because he has established himself with past feats. Manhattan hasn't lived up to the hype. You can't give Manhattan something that isn't there, he has to prove it himself. Feats do mean everything here. SS has showings that led me and others to believe why he's on a much higher level. Also, SS's power has increase exponentially without the aid of Galactus, but I'll that point for later. Until otherwise, SS>>Manhattan.

#39 Posted by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

And maybe I'm lowballing Manhattan here. I mean, I like Watchmen and Manhattan, but he isn't on Surfer's level until he has the feats to suggest otherwise. Thank you for not being an ass to me, and I never intended to be a d*** or whatever, but I disagree completely that Manhattan can contend with Surfer. Until he proves otherwise, Surfer is superior in nearly all aspects. :)

#40 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong, sorry but i've already made my case and have to prove nothing...yes i've watched watchmen, read the books i'm well aware of his powers and i can easily the same about you and ss.

Again, dr. m has come back from a planned death from the smartest man in watchmen universe on earth yet it failed...his powers confirmed and he stated he can create life, could see the past, present and aware of the future he even knew when his precog into the near future was being blocked.

Besides, if a bunch of mortals that are smart in mu can fool and take ss's powers aware in black panther, reed,doom etc i'm sure dr man can manage against the surfer. You and cooljammy18 are both underestimating dr. m and yes hes on par with these guys, just because he has not a lot of feats means nothing. This is the classic strawman argument of "well superma prime 1 million has little to no feats so he cant beat anyone" nonsense. If you possess the power, you dont need 1000 feats.period

So yes i will disagree with you guys and until i see proof or evidence of ss actually finding a way to rid dr. manhattan permanently, imnot convinced. Otherwises, it's best to agree to disagree. Besides, as i've said ss has no answer for ds with the ale nor the omega effect. So yeah, going with team 2 here.

@cooljammy18, well lowballing or underestimating no matter i do think you are seriously not taking dr. manhattan seriously when you should. At the end of the day, dr. manhattan and ss are roughly even as far as i'm concerned. So like most battles the rest is mere speculation.

#41 Edited by Wyldsong (5689 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus: Actually, no, you haven't made a case other than to say that you are speculating on his power levels. You say you have read the books and are aware of his powers, yet have shown a lack of knowledge on his abilities and the basic functioning of the chacter. You have yet to give any real sort of proof for your theories here. Sorry bud, but until you back this up with some fact, then my statements in this stand, and yours falter on shaky ground.

Me asking you for proof does not make a strawman argument. That's just basic debate 101. Offering up a no limits fallacy argument for a character doesn't work here. You literally can not and have not proved, nor backed up your position on this. Your speculation and beliefs on the character do not equate to provable fact.

Anyhow, I can see that you will continue to shout speculation without proof, so I will leave this be for now.

#42 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong, Actually yes I have you're just ignoring my perspective and the various possibilities. Again, until you can solidly prove that SS can literally "kill" Dr. Manhattan no problem especially when mere mortals with little prep deal with him, yet in WU we saw a mortal with MONTHS if not years of prep fail against Dr. Manhattan so nuff said.

Actually I do know, why do I need to go into detail? You're pulling a nick_hero22 and I had to debunk his entire assumption of me "not reading comics" so I made a video actually proving I have and own more comics then he does so really? Don't assume please because I assure you I've read my share of comics. You're the one who lacks knowledge of the character by your assumptions. You have no facts either then, again lol SS vs. Dr. Manhattan never happened thus it's speculation and both are very similar. The only difference is one is powered by a higher being, the other powers himself..

What you said before is a strawman argument with your assumptions. I proved my point, live in denial all you wish though clearly you're a Marvel fanboy and you totally ignored my other point in that SS has no answer for Darkseid nor the Omega Force. Tata now. Your "supply proof" statement, oh the irony.

#43 Edited by Wyldsong (5689 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus: Wow, you really are something else. Son, I have not made one assumption, I have stated facts. Like the fact that we have only ever seen Manhattan come back from one single solitary thing: intrinsic field removal. That is it, nothing else. You on the other hand assume that he is basically immune to death. It's a fact that Manhattan has an exceedingly limited number of feats and showings, and no real high end showings. You assume he is herald level with no real proof. I can go on, but will limit this response due to typing from a phone. I am the one dealing in facts. You are making the assumptions.

You have yet to bring up one bit of proof to back up your position. You have even admitted to speculating on his abilities. And, which this is really the best part, you are calling me a Marvel fanboy with no answer for DS' s omega beams? Really? Have you even been reading my posts? When have I actually debated the outcome of this fight? I have simply asked you to prove your position on Manhattans power level, and have stated that he pales in comparison to SS. Yeah, I ignored the DS point, because it has nothing to do with what I am saying to you.

Yes, I will accuse you of not even reading or understanding Manhattan -- seems to be the same story with my posts. Make all the videos you want. Show me your collection. And I will just repost the very words of yours that I called into question, which speaks volumes on your knowledge base here.

You want to move from realm of assumption to fact? Then start by using actual facts/feats/showings to back your position, rather than your admitted speculations. Lol...you are a peach...

#44 Posted by ghostsuck (137 posts) - - Show Bio

2 team

#45 Posted by GhostRider2 (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus: not sure i understand your post but SS can kill a normal/standard Darkseid.

#46 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@ Wyldsong

Actually, I'm a human ;) Also, I'm not your son chances are I'm probably older then you are guy. Your arrogance is amusing I admit but overall irrelevant. Like I said, you can't actually prove SS murks Dr. Manhattan outside of yes speculation and again I love it how you completely ignore Darkseid being on Team 2, it's not just SS vs. Dr. Manhattan(in case you read the title)

I never said assumed nor said he was immune to death, I said can COME back from death and HAS(there's a difference) and like I said, in WU we've seen the world's smartest man THINK he had Dr. Manhattan done but was sadly mistaken, and I quote Dr. M "This world's smartest man means no more to me than does its smartest termite"

I don't care for "herald" level or not, his power and abilities determine his level. Some people think Superman is herald level yet he wouldn't do much against Dr. Manhattan..so your point? Stop using this "herald" as a crutch for an argument as if "herald=Godly" or something...it is merely a a word. Nothing more. If anything a herald means you're someone's B%$$# in marvel if anything lol. Dr. Man is nobody's but his own. Besides, who's to say he can't just clone himself 100 times and that's 100 Dr. Manhattans vs. one silver surfer...you totally underestimate him ten fold.

Well, you would be wrong then because I've read the comics and prefer DC far more over Marvel overall. I need not to make anymore videos, I only did so for the other guy since he assumed(much like you are) and was so confident I owned no comics, he was wrong as he even admitted once I posted the video. I have used feats, teleportation within the galaxy? Ability to create life? Ability to create oxygen sheilds? Coming back from death(assuming he can die)? Cloning himself to as many as he wishes? Matter manipulation, molecular manipulation to an atomic level, telekinesis, intangibility, godlike power compared to most things around him if not everything in his universe. Incredibly smart, can see the near past, present and future. Shall I go on? But hey, feel free to be a Marvel tool. I can't force you to see the facts.

@ghostsuck said:

2 team

Thanks for posting. See Wyldsong, not everyone agrees with you ;)

@GhostRider2 said:

@Vaeternus: not sure i understand your post but SS can kill a normal/standard Darkseid.

A normal one maybe...but this is Darkseid at full power here keep in mind, minus the 3rd round which is the new 52 DS. Just check out the rules, he has the ALE in other rounds and is pre 52.

#47 Edited by nick_hero22 (6949 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@Wyldsong, Actually yes I have you're just ignoring my perspective and the various possibilities. Again, until you can solidly prove that SS can literally "kill" Dr. Manhattan no problem especially when mere mortals with little prep deal with him, yet in WU we saw a mortal with MONTHS if not years of prep fail against Dr. Manhattan so nuff said.

Actually I do know, why do I need to go into detail? You're pulling a nick_hero22 and I had to debunk his entire assumption of me "not reading comics" so I made a video actually proving I have and own more comics then he does so really? Don't assume please because I assure you I've read my share of comics. You're the one who lacks knowledge of the character by your assumptions. You have no facts either then, again lol SS vs. Dr. Manhattan never happened thus it's speculation and both are very similar. The only difference is one is powered by a higher being, the other powers himself..

What you said before is a strawman argument with your assumptions. I proved my point, live in denial all you wish though clearly you're a Marvel fanboy and you totally ignored my other point in that SS has no answer for Darkseid nor the Omega Force. Tata now. Your "supply proof" statement, oh the irony.

And then Killmail debated you and debunked the notation that you were an avid reader of comics since he called you out several time about you using misconstrued information and out of context of scans. And you do not own more comics than I do, that is a flat out lie. You said that you owned a total of 40 or so comics while I posted pictures of numerous comic series that I had stockpiled in my Comixology library consisting of multiple issues.

#48 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22

lol, no he didn't and you even admitted you were wrong about the same assumption. Please...btw, this post is proof you stalk me ;) Funny, the second I mentioned you you happen to post..hmmm

I didn't misconstruct anything, and you're talking about a topic you didn't even post in therefore your post and opinion on that matter is not credible. I'm referring to an entirely different topic...

Sidenote: this also proves my theory, or one of them. You have a serious problem minding your own business. Every time I'm debating with someone(anyone) you come out of no where and just chime in without posting about the actual topic..(shocker)

#49 Edited by nick_hero22 (6949 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22

lol, no he didn't and you even admitted you were wrong about the same assumption. Please...btw, this post is proof you stalk me ;) Funny, the second I mentioned you you happen to post..hmmm

I didn't misconstruct anything, and you're talking about a topic you didn't even post in therefore your post and opinion on that matter is not credible. I'm referring to an entirely different topic...

Sidenote: this also proves my theory, or one of them. You have a serious problem minding your own business. Every time I'm debating with someone(anyone) you come out of no where and just chime in without posting about the actual topic..(shocker)

Keep my f##king name out of your mouth, if you have something to say concerning me then you need to address it with me. This thread had nothing to do with me, so why bring me up?

#50 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

@Vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22

lol, no he didn't and you even admitted you were wrong about the same assumption. Please...btw, this post is proof you stalk me ;) Funny, the second I mentioned you you happen to post..hmmm

I didn't misconstruct anything, and you're talking about a topic you didn't even post in therefore your post and opinion on that matter is not credible. I'm referring to an entirely different topic...

Sidenote: this also proves my theory, or one of them. You have a serious problem minding your own business. Every time I'm debating with someone(anyone) you come out of no where and just chime in without posting about the actual topic..(shocker)

Keep my f##king name out of your mouth, if you have something to say concerning me then you need to address it with me.

Ok, one watch your mouth no need to get that upset. Two, I'll speak of what I wish so long as it's not breaking the rules...I was merely referring to you as the last person to assume something about me and be wrong. Which you admitted...I did NOT quote you meaning you had no reason to come in here and go off topic. Do it again and Ill be sure to let the mods know what's up as this is getting tiresome with you. I have no problems with you as far as your battle views go, so long as you post concerning the actual topic. If you want to discuss it or an issue with me, send me an IM. Thanks