#1 Edited by Chibi_cute (4612 posts) - - Show Bio

Random encounter. movie versions only.

Hellboy vs nomak h2h fight.

Prince nuada with his spear vs kroenen with twin arm blades. in a swordfight.

VS

random encounter.

Which tag team will dominate.?

FIGHT TAKES PLACE INSIDE ON AN ABANDONED GYMNASIUM.

go

#2 Posted by Chibi_cute (4612 posts) - - Show Bio

bump.

#3 Posted by Troll_Hunter (85 posts) - - Show Bio

Team hellboy.. if hellboy gets a hold into nomak he will turn nomak's brain into mush..

and nuada can stomp. kroenen. fairly.

#4 Edited by Fallschirmjager (18967 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 imo. Hellboy is a brick and Nuada is a elf ninja.

#5 Edited by Iragexcudder (5614 posts) - - Show Bio

Nuada solo:)

#6 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know about Hellboy vs. Nomak, but Nuada vs Kroenen would be an awesome fight. On Kroenen's side, he's got insane durability - even getting his head smashed and being impaled didn't make him unconscious. Neither did bullets. Basically, physical harm doesn't work too well on him. He's also got insane reflexes - with his tonfa blades, he was not only able to react to bullets, but even reflect them back to their shooters. And those tonfa blades are ridiculously sharp - they were able to rip chunks off Hellboy's Right Arm, and split a statue into two with one stroke.

Nuada probably has a higher degree of skill though. He's been alive far longer than Kroenen so he's got more experience, and he has more feats attacking to his fighting ability - like him versus the King's guards and against Hellboy. His magical spear (might) be effective against Kroenen, and after all, the Nazi did get KOed when a long bar ran through his stomach (though arguably Kroenen was weaker in WWII times). His spear also gives him a longer melee reach.

I'd probably give a slight edge to the elf, but an argument could be made for both villains.

#7 Edited by Chibi_cute (4612 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: Well kroenen wasn't KOed at all hellboy just incapacitated him.. in the last fight.

Also he ran away.. when the soldiers didn't noticed.. when rasputin died.

#8 Posted by Chibi_cute (4612 posts) - - Show Bio

Fun fact.. the actor who portrayed prince nuada and jared nomak.. is the same.

The actor who portrayed the drug dealer that nomak killed in blade 2 was also the same actor that portrayed kroenen in hellboy..

Reindhart in blade 2 is hellboy..

#9 Posted by Troll_Hunter (85 posts) - - Show Bio

Nuada solo:)

He can't he would face extreme difficulty in facing kroenen.. let alone nomak.

#10 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute said:

@veshark: Well kroenen wasn't KOed at all hellboy just incapacitated him..

Are you referring to their final fight? Kroenen was incaped by the spikes, but it's up for debate whether or not Kroenen was KOed by HB dropping a cog on him. I think it's fair to say he was though. For one, he didn't make a single sound after getting a cog thrown on him. Plus, he was also shown being KOed in the movie's prologue, when a metal rod flew straight through his stomach. So we know that he can get knocked out. Even if he later ran away, he probably just came back to consciousness after awhile. Evidenced by the fact that after getting impaled, his body slumped and went limp.

#11 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35130 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute: Damn, I always meant to make a Nuada Vs Nomak fight but I kept forgetting.

#12 Edited by Chibi_cute (4612 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute: Damn, I always meant to make a Nuada Vs Nomak fight but I kept forgetting.

I made this thread 5 months ago. LOL. and only this time it got attention.. glad someone bumped it.. instead of bumping out dbz threads.

#13 Posted by Iragexcudder (5614 posts) - - Show Bio

@troll_hunter: Kroenen is good but Nuada is much more skilled. Kro can't die obviously but Nuada had an extreme speed and swordsmanship advantage

#14 Posted by Troll_Hunter (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@troll_hunter: Kroenen is good but Nuada is much more skilled. Kro can't die obviously but Nuada had an extreme speed and swordsmanship advantage

Kroenen is also not to be trifled with.. he is able to deflect bullets from the guards firing at him.. kroenen had more faster reaction feats than nuada.. He could also play dead and that may serve as an advantage.

#15 Edited by VileBlues (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Last post SIX days ago!? Holy shit, a battle that is actually of interest to me with a last post that isn't from years ago.

I feel most people come into the Nuada vs Kroenen battle with an entirely wrong mindset, but following the traditional way of simply judging feats, Nuala against Hellboy was certainly the better, and faced him twice. I admit ahead of time that I'm going to use the fan boy, but still try to prepare an adequate argument because I enjoy the difficulty and have seen older conversations on the topic that seemed to have a majority voting of Nuada winning, I hope I can maybe change that to prove that Kroenen is just as likely to defeat Nuada, if not more dangerous. I give Kroenen at least a 6/7 maybe out of 10. But an admitted fan boy, let's not get too heated and take things personally, all right champs?

Why?

First we will compare scenes of theirs where they have moments of fighting cannon-fodder.

Nuada: The King's guards I'm sure were no joke. Definitely stronger than some security guards at a museum, and am I the only one who thinks their costume work was just magnificent? Anyways, it was a sword fight, and a very glamorous one that showed a ton of skill, plenty of replay value, it was a great scene. However, I'm not convinced this shows any level of feats as high as Kroenen.

Kroenen vs Cannon-Fodder: Simple mall cops practically, not the beastly sword wielding elite guards of the Elf King. Problem. Those guys were swinging swords (though big ones!) in real time from how it looked. Kroenen on the other hand, went against, in his first scene, and the later security guard scene...Bullets. I don't think this is really an argument here who was evading the faster attacks. But what really steals the show...Is both have a really impressive feat in them. Nuada's dramatic finale, sliding underneath the blades swung at him in a very flexible and well balanced showing movement before stabbing his father. So we've learned what? He's skilled? I got that already from the whole training scene of his. I don't see anything that boosts his feats any.

Kroenen by comparison, he does the same, shows he's skilled which we know, but his feat gives him a bonus of some sort. He doesn't just deflect bullets. He has dexterity and precision to use the ricochet to send them back at you. That reaction time is unparalleled by anything Nuada showed us (that I can recall, it's been a while and I only got youtube vids to help me out here). Google how fast a bullet travels and let it sink in for a while. Then consider calculating and flawlessly performing the geometry to perform such an act.

Nuada fights against the protagonist: Unfortunately, Nuada was the main villain and the skillful bad ass, so he got double the chances to really show off for us. A lot of wire fu and great choreography. A lot of skill shown, especially with the use of the spear, the one weapon he's been using through out the movie he appears to excel with.

Kroenen vs Protagonist: There's going to be a later note about this to make us think outside of the usual battle thread realm of comparing characters. Anyways, it was a bit of a let down, however Kroenen showed ability to damage the arm of Hellboy(?) and land a strike. His trait of masochism allowed him to be drawn in and struck, but only because he is a known masochist who, sporting very high intellect, used this in preparation of a plan since he was capable of tanking the shots and knew this. It's laughable to believe he got knocked back, then remembered "Oh yeah! There's a trap there." Over, with the clues such as his laughter, that it was an intended plan all along and not an ironic convenience. Other factors include: Kroenen's original hand was lost in a grenade explosion that was the result of the man accompanying Hellboy in the scene, his focus wasn't entirely on our protagonist who he was pretty confident in his skill advantage over.

Final assessment.

Kroenen's total feats appear to best Nuada's, and where he lacks in feats against the protagonist of (Which, later we'll discuss, is more an issue of allotted screen time they had available.) he makes up for in his own feats and his facts since there are specifics known about Kroenen's strength/speed/durability and so forth.

Speed: Kroenen wins here. Both men are superbly fast for sure. However, while we've seen flippy wire-fu and jumping around running about from Nuada, none of it was done super humanly fast I can recall, or the majority of it wasn't slow-mo, but instead live time impressively choreographed action. If we assume him slightly superhuman in it, it's probably just barely, but we know that the fastest human running speed is 28 mph. Kroenen's speed is listed at 55 mph.

Strength: Kroenen: Kroenen displays super human strength, with his maximum being two tons. I just cannot for the life of me think of any scene of Nuada that shows that level of strength from him. In his defense, there were some leaping feats that were beyond human capability, showing extremely strong legs capable of performing his complex acrobatics better than the finest human athlete, I remember this much to give Nuada credit for.

Endurance: Kroenen definitely and without question. Nuada most likely has massive endurance, how good is his cardio? We have nothing to show it's limitless, nor reason to assume it is. Kroenen on the other hand, literally builds no fatigue toxins in his body. Unfortunately, Nuada uses a very energy exerting way of fighting that would build fatigue toxins far quicker because of the insane amount of jumping, acrobatics, running around, hopping off walls. You get my point.

Durability: Kroenen definitely. Karl is near impossible to kill. We're going to assume Nuada's using his spear, it's not a decapitating weapon, so hacking limbs or heads off just really isn't an option for Nuada. Kroenen also has a habit of wearing protection over his vital areas. He can't be incapacitated at his peak by impalement. He takes that, right after tanking Hellboy's punches (10 ton range, and no pulling the punches like Spider Man would, and his knuckles are super humanly durable to where they aren't going to break unleashing the full 10 tonner force. In fact, Karl having killed his 'father', Hellboy can be considered near blood lusted in this fight.) Slices and cuts won't do the job, and the spear can doubtfully deliver that sort of power which wasn't even enough to fully break the mask. Kroenen's mask is near indestructible, and it's noteworthy that he wears armor over his potential weaknesses, so both brain and heart, the likely places of a definite kill, are rendered near impossible for Nuada to capitalize on. Nuada on the other hand is the opposite...If anything he's more durable than the average person, considering he has vulnerabilities that not even I have with the whole twin sister thing, and how much he can take may differ from how much damage she can withstand. However, assuming his physiology the same as both other members of his blood-related family, his father and sister, both died from simple singular impalement. This means that while the possible ways of defeating Kroenen are narrow for him, Kroenen is at a major advantage that he needs only impale his opponent once...And not as much speculation, but probable fact that he is as vulnerable as human beings when it comes to his anatomy. So a sliced artery is also a potential life threatening situation. This vast difference should by no means be taken lightly.

Extra: Anatomically, most of Kroenen's is mentioned above, however, also an upper hand (No pun intended) is the slight advantage of having a robotic hand. More durable...And made by a man who has shown the feat of creating very durable objects, so it's also not baseless speculation to assume the hand is of similar quality. I believe it gives a 360 range of motion to the wrist his opponent does not possess.

Intelligence: While Kroenen had the skill, he also showed off some amazing Saturday morning cartoon villain death trap in his fight with Hellboy that was well executed. I remember nothing of this level of thought on Nuada's part, his spear trap being impractical and allowing for his opponent to live rather than finishing them there and then. Had no interference disrupted the fight, Kroenen's would've been the more efficient of the two.

Kroenen is listed to have:

Leadership: Kroenen is an excellent leader and inspiring commander, who has often been selected as a favorite commander for many warlords such as Adolf Hitler and Grigori Rasputin.

I wouldn't argue with someone that Nuada is also capable of being considered a strong leader. He is a prince after all. However, he looks less impressive with his best known military feat being 'Let's send this indestructible army out to fuck shit up.' over the more precise tactical warfare involved in a real war such as World War 2, where Kroenen took an active role as a leader. Complimenting him and proving perhaps superiority of intellect:

  • Inventive Genius: Kroenen is a brilliant mechanic and inventor, whose inventions have included his own superhuman clockwork heart, a prosthetic mechanical hand, a virtually indestructible gas mask, and many others.
  • Master Surgeon: Kroenen is an expert surgeon with encyclopedic medical knowledge, as well as expert skill in dissection and vivisection.

Master Occultist: Karl is highly trained in the use of both theoretical and practical occult magic, and is considered a medium level mage. Although he mainly uses magic in the form of rituals and potions, but is also competent with spellcasting.

Practical sciences like engineering and surgery, AND occult knowledge? Isn't the knowledge of both the reason some may argue Doom could be considered more intelligent than Reed? However, on top of all this, we also find Artistic knowledge for extra kick in the ass.

Singing Prodigy: Has been a brilliant performer with a mesmerizing voice since infancy.

Master Martial Artist: Kroenen is an expert of melee combat and fighting disciplines.

There's more, but let's save it for later where they are more important. However, I believe intellectually, the versatility on part of Kroenen proves itself superior.

Reflexes/Fighting Skill: Around even. This is the big part we've all really been debating. We know from above, Kroenen is a master martial artist, sharing this with his opponent. Kroenens coordination, balance, agility and flexibility is also superhuman, allowing him to perform complex acrobatic feats. Kroenen possesses incredible reaction time and has been shown dodging bullets, and can also deflect them with swords. He does this with such pinpoint dexterity, accuracy and coordination that he was capable of deflecting bullets back at the police, killing them.

The bullet feat is just too beastly to deny. Nuada doesn't compare to it from my memory in any way that degree of super human ability despite his skill, though he is probably the more proficient martial artist of the two, this does not necessarily make for quicker reaction time. One bad showing of Kroenen apparently not showing off as much skill in his Hellboy fight (and don't forget the earlier mentioned: He's focused on the other guy, and also using his mind over his skill with the preparation of his trap, coming off to me as every bit as skillful in the whole of things, but more versatile and intelligent in his planning, so the lackluster Hellboy fight may not have been as long or exciting, but certainly, was not a bad showing.) We covered the reflexes, but in closing, I believe it's possible for there to be a feat for Nuada that may prove me wrong here, but Kroenen was also during World War 2 (when less powerful) a bullet timer who could effectively move out of the trajectory of a bullet he see's aimed and being fired at him. I wouldn't be surprised if Nuada bullet timed, but I don't remember a feat from the second movie to back it up, so until then I have to assume he has nothing to prove this, and cannot claim him one without it. This would effectively put him lower than Kroenen in this department, another disadvantage. Even if he did dodge a bullet in the movie, unfortunately, he took a blow from one of the guards(cannon-fodder) he first fought, which was far-far-far from bullet level speed and reflects extremely poorly on him in contest with Kroenen in this department. Now let us considered the weapons proficiency.

Accurate Marksman: Karl Kroenen is proficient with both throwing knives and pistols.

Master Swordsman: He is a champion of virtually every edged weapon ever invented.

Weapons Specialist: Kroenen knows how to use almost any weapon invented to its maximum potential and effectiveness.

I believe it's idiotic to follow the OP, and I don't think anyone will really disagree with me here..We want to determine who wins between them, and especially with Kroenen normally being considered the lesser of the two in skill and such, I believe we should take the various scenarios of him with his two known weapon sets: His tonfa swords, and his katars and gun. He has the ability to shoot, stab, and slice with his surgeon expertise allowing for the aiming of the most vital spots possible making every strike as lethal as possible. His opponent on the other hand showed to use very exhausting and tiring movements that were more flash that could land strikes but most non lethal when they landed. Kroenen has only never landed a lethal blow on Hellboy, but has still shown the ability to tag him. While not shown in his battling, super human acrobatics is a feat of Kroenen's as well that he is capable of performing. He has scaled down a wall and shown amazing agile contortionist movement, but acrobatics in the martial arts world (Though this is comics and movie, I do understand the difference between real life and these medias) are usually considered a silly show offy disadvantage. Kroenen's acrobatics are used more efficiently and tactically, so his lack of seeing them in actual combat appears to also aid in the argument of his skill equaling his opponent since he goes with the more practical fighting style (Though then again, a double edged tonfa blade isn't practical...The guy's a masochist, okay?)

In closing:

If you managed to read it all, there should be little doubt that these two are far too similarly matched in skill for that to be the deciding factor when I believe I have demonstrated some potentially monstrous and multiple versatile advantages on part of Kroenen. If you're still interested and want to know how Kroenen's abilities work, it is explained with this-

Clockwork Heart: Following his injuries sustained after project Ragna Rok, Kroenen had his pierced heart replaced by a mystical clockwork version which was mentally linked to his brain. This enabled him to control his cardiovascular functions, and therefore speed up or slow down his heartbeat, or fake his own death by causing it to beat so fast or so slowly that it cannot be heard or felt. It also offers him a few extra abilities. His control over his heart allows for a lot of his super human abilities that we have given limits to, like his two ton strength, and actual feats like cutting through solid stone that shows there is no contradiction to t his supposed strength. Nuada on the other hand? He got more air time. Was a lot flashier. But just still doesn't bring enough to the fight to overcome his disadvantages.

Extra!

This is where I asked you to not look at things in the light we usually do here when discussing comic book characters and feats and the like. We really need to remember. Hellboy 2, as all sequels do, had to try and upstage Hellboy 1. In addition to this, the longer fight of Nuada's is the equivalent to the final Rasputin scene because he is the big bad of the movie. However, since skill is Nuada's thing, it's what he brought to that ending scene.....He's the main antagonist so he gets that screen time. Unfortunately, Kroenen was just the Body Guard for the Big Bad, where they couldn't afford to give him as much if they were to properly wrap things up with the actual villain of the film. This is a fourth wall and easily understandable reason for why there is such a difference in the level of fight given to Hellboy by the two, and yet Kroenen still manages to come out looking better with the entirety of known knowledge about him when we take into account that if there had been no Rasputin, but instead, Kroenen the main villain being the climax of the film where Hellboy interrupts him from reviving Rasputin in our hypothetical AU version of the film, than he would've, as the one holding the rights as main villain, not been powered up with anything he doesn't already possess, but simply given more screen time for the climax of the film as his rightful main villain claim rewards, and the fight would have been longer, meaning, more intricate choreography would be needed to keep it going and we'd have seen just as impressive of feats without actually giving the character any more power or abilities than he already has. So all I'm saying is, using things that are the fault of production as defense against a characters otherwise totally proven ability, is just ridiculous. Now, I've been up all night and finally winding down, excuse the lack of proof reading for some errors through out this essay of character comparison I'd normally give you guys the benefit of.

Edit* As for Hellboy vs Nomak, I just kind of don't care. I assume Hellboy ends up ripping him in half.