#1 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Hawkman gets 1 hour of prep where he learns about Herc

Standard gear

In character

#2 Posted by WWQ7 (466 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Hercules can handle Hawkman.

#3 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@wwq7: hawkman has his Nth metal nets, daggers, mace, sword and the claw of horrus. forgot to add that to the OP , but i think it was implied anyway. Just making sure

#4 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

nobody backing hercules here?

#5 Edited by WWQ7 (466 posts) - - Show Bio

@wwq7: hawkman has his Nth metal nets, daggers, mace, sword and the claw of horrus. forgot to add that to the OP , but i think it was implied anyway. Just making sure

In that case I say Hawkman wins, but not easily.

#6 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@wwq7 said:

@inconvenient_truth said:

@wwq7: hawkman has his Nth metal nets, daggers, mace, sword and the claw of horrus. forgot to add that to the OP , but i think it was implied anyway. Just making sure

In that case I say Hawkman wins, but not easily.

do you think hawkman is strong enough to take a shot from herc if he manages to land one?

#7 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

Not saying who wins here but I would like to point out superman wasn't knocked out by the claw of horrus.

This needs to be pointed out in every hawkman thread....
#8 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: true but it should still be noted that the claw of horrus hits with the power of all the electromagnetic power of the planet....or something to that effect. i hope someone can straighten out my comment.

#9 Edited by robertloucksjr (1729 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc. Way more durable and I am not sure the Claw of Horus can knock him out. I would say Herc is even more skilled in hand to hand so landing a punch with the Claw of Horus is not a given.

#10 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc. Way more durable and I am not sure the Claw of Horus can knock him out. I would say Herc is even more skilled in hand to hand so landing a punch with the Claw of Horus is not a given.

agreed. both are very skilled. quick question, is any of hercs power granted by magic?

#11 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@inconvenient_truth: Hawkman claimed that he hit superman with the force of the planet so you are correct.

#12 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@inconvenient_truth: Hawkman claimed that he hit superman with the force of the planet so you are correct.

with the force of the planet" ahh, sorry, i get it confused sometimes, eventhough the force of the planet IS pretty vague, but thanks for the input. i knew i had it wrong

#13 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3393 posts) - - Show Bio

@inconvenient_truth: @jashro44:

There are 2 types of knockouts: Type1 (in all 3 Pro Boxing Federations, the USKA, and under the Unified Rules of MMA) states that if a fighter can't sucessfully/intelligently defend himself, then the referee can stop the fight without the fighter's corner throwing in the towel for him. Type 2 is the more spectacular version that even small children can relate to: the "Damn! You got KTFO!!!" type of knockout that sends people to La-La Land. When you look at that fight you see 3 things in this order: 1) Superman takes Hawkman way up into the upper atmosphere (don't know why considering that Hawkman can survive for up to 15 mins in the vaccumn of space, but anyway..) and does'nt take the threat that Hawkman poses seriously. 2) Hawkman puts on the Claw, explains what it does, and he nails Superman clean with it sending Kal-El flying back to Earth in true "Dragonball Z" type fashion. 3) Superman is stretched out beside Batman with a broken nose for his trouble. Now a lot happens of panel, so i'm going to speculate here on what happened next: Superman professed to be "playing possum" to get to Luthor. No arguement there, but my guess is that the D.E.O. provided Cap and Hawkman with a Paddy Wagon/reinforced shipping container-type of device (which you'd need to keep a Kryptonian in custody against his will). So who's to say they did'nt load the "fugitives" into this Paddy Wagon, and Superman woke up a minute or ten later, nudged Bruce awake, discussed their plan to ambush Cap and Hawkman in Kryptonese (which even if Cap or Hawkman's super-hearing heard,they would'nt understand), and when the doors to the Paddy Wagon were opened they sprung into action? Again, all speculation. But the bottom line is that in real life combat sports, if you're knocked out for 2 seconds, or if you need the full power of smelling salts to leave Dreamland, it still counts as at least a TKO. Why should the rules of comic book combat be regarded any differently?

#14 Posted by cliffrice (1015 posts) - - Show Bio

Herk likes to wrassle. If he gets his hands on hawkman none of his weapons are gonna do him much good. Still there is the maneuverability issue. Nth metal isnt indestructible so herc could probably break a net. But i think a shot from Horus could put herc down. I don't recall herc tanking planet busting force unless you count hits from Mjolnir as planet busting (which they may very well be.) so its kind of up in the air. I wanna say its 50/50 ish but im leaning towards herc cause i like him more.

#15 Edited by comic_book_fan (5589 posts) - - Show Bio

herc wins.

#16 Posted by New_World_Order (13068 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules with ease.

#17 Edited by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: Thing is superman took a dive. When batman and superman said "castling" what they meant pretend to switch opponents and then fake defeat to ambush hawkman and captain marvel. That is why in the scan I uploaded superman says castling. The problem is that it was always the plan to fake defeat (as soon as they said castling while fighting with hawkman and captain marvel) so they can catch captain marvel and hawkman off guard.

He also says "we let them think they did" in the scan. So based off that line it sounds as if superman wasn't truly defeated and could have got back up and defeated hawkman if he wanted to.

#18 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3393 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

I hear what you're saying. I picked up the TPB of "Public Enemies" a few years back because I missed a couple of the individual issues in that storyline. I was saying that Superman did indeed strategize with Batman on castling. Hawkman actually picked up on this enough to remark, "You guys think you invented castling?" (loosely quoted). He then went on to use a weapon that neither Superman nor Batman even knew he had and deployed it during the battle (can't blame them for that though, considering that Hawkman is like the medieval version of Liefeld-era Cable with all the weapons he can carry into a fight, something had to slip through the cracks as far as intel was concerned). The scenario that I laid out earlier is still at least plausible considering that while Superman/Batman decided to switch "dancing partners" mid-battle, Hawkman figured out their strategy and responded with WAY more force than both necessary or even resonable judging by the visible injuries on Superman's face. Superman has a great healing factor that he barely gets the chance to use, which says to me that while he and Bats DID intended to Rope-A-Dope, he did'nt count on Hawkman's willingness to go all out on him with a weapon he knew nothing about. He could've only been out for a minute or two, long enough to whisper the rest of his strategy to Batman and execute it when the opportune time presented itself.

The scene of Supes near strangling Luthor in the Oval Office is him giving us the Cliff Notes of their strategy from inception to execution, not necessarily the entire play by play of what happened, including the parts where Cap and Hawkman may have played their parts in the "World's Finest's" plan a little too well. "We let them think they did" could mean that he was out like a light for a minute or two and then did what i've mentioned before. No way did Amanda Waller expect Cap and Hawkman to fly these guys, the world's most powerful man and the world's most resourceful man from Japan back to D.C. on their shoulders. There had to be a containment structure of some sort off-panel for the transport/ambush at some point during the transport part of the story to make any sense. Don't misunderstand me though, I hear you. I'm just saying that since so much of the original "castling" plan happened off-panel, is'nt it at least possible that Hawkman played his part a little too well, especially since he pointed out to Superman that he'd figured out at least the switch partners aspect of his plan, if not the later ambush part?

#19 Posted by GhostRavage (8878 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules wins with ease, he's a very skilled fighter, i can say more skilled that Hawkman. Imo, if you need to give all this stuff to hawkman to even make it a fair fight then, this shouldn't be created. I guess, you're reaching and want Hawkman to win?

#20 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5386 posts) - - Show Bio

Ill go with Hercules does he get his mace and lion skin? Why does Hawkmsn need prep if he's so badass?

#21 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3393 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:Hercules wins with ease, he's a very skilled fighter, i can say more skilled that Hawkman. Imo, if you need to give all this stuff to hawkman to even make it a fair fight then, this shouldn't be created. I guess, you're reaching and want Hawkman to win?

Hawkman is'nt exactly unskilled, my friend. He's actually older than Hercules and they both have the benefit of immortality, so that part of the equation is pretty much off the table. As to his weaponry, Hawkman was the prototype for both the "Berserker" type hero and the "Armed to the Teeth" character as far back as the 1940's (real time). He's always carrying hella weapons on his person into a combat situation. This model would be copied and expanded on in virtually every comic book universe ever since. Examples would be: DC Comics [Batman (although his Utility Belt is nowhere as ridiculous now as it was back during the '60s), Deathstroke, Prometheus, etc..], Marvel Comics [Liefeld-era Cable (who would pull out guns as long as a city block when just 2 panels before it/they were nowhere to be seen), the Punisher, Deadpool (Deathstroke's Marvel doppelganger), Solo, etc..) Image [Al Simmons version of Spawn] and on, and on, and on. ALL these guys are strapped beyond belief with guns, shuriken, plastic explosives, swords and some mo' s**t. Hawkman just got that ball rolling 70 years ago. He's also a guy who learned the martial arts when they were still brand new, both armed and unarmed combat, including Pankration.

#22 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet:

I hear what you're saying. I picked up the TPB of "Public Enemies" a few years back because I missed a couple of the individual issues in that storyline. I was saying that Superman did indeed strategize with Batman on castling. Hawkman actually picked up on this enough to remark, "You guys think you invented castling?" (loosely quoted). He then went on to use a weapon that neither Superman nor Batman even knew he had and deployed it during the battle (can't blame them for that though, considering that Hawkman is like the medieval version of Liefeld-era Cable with all the weapons he can carry into a fight, something had to slip through the cracks as far as intel was concerned). The scenario that I laid out earlier is still at least plausible considering that while Superman/Batman decided to switch "dancing partners" mid-battle, Hawkman figured out their strategy and responded with WAY more force than both necessary or even resonable judging by the visible injuries on Superman's face. Superman has a great healing factor that he barely gets the chance to use, which says to me that while he and Bats DID intended to Rope-A-Dope, he did'nt count on Hawkman's willingness to go all out on him with a weapon he knew nothing about. He could've only been out for a minute or two, long enough to whisper the rest of his strategy to Batman and execute it when the opportune time presented itself.

I think the part we disagree with is what superman and batman meant by castling. The Castling wasn't code for them to switch partners, they were just pretending that was the plan. The actual plan was going to be to fake defeat. Batman and superman knew hawkman probably would have had some trump card so they pretended that captain marvel and hawkmans plan worked. Basically they took a dive.

The scene of Supes near strangling Luthor in the Oval Office is him giving us the Cliff Notes of their strategy from inception to execution, not necessarily the entire play by play of what happened, including the parts where Cap and Hawkman may have played their parts in the "World's Finest's" plan a little too well. "We let them think they did" could mean that he was out like a light for a minute or two and then did what i've mentioned before. No way did Amanda Waller expect Cap and Hawkman to fly these guys, the world's most powerful man and the world's most resourceful man from Japan back to D.C. on their shoulders. There had to be a containment structure of some sort off-panel for the transport/ambush at some point during the transport part of the story to make any sense. Don't misunderstand me though, I hear you. I'm just saying that since so much of the original "castling" plan happened off-panel, is'nt it at least possible that Hawkman played his part a little too well, especially since he pointed out to Superman that he'd figured out at least the switch partners aspect of his plan, if not the later ambush part?

The reason being I interpret the events this way is because in the scan I posted superman says "we let them think they beat us to get access to the white house after blindsiding captain marvel and hawkman" (that quote is paraphrased a little bit) and then after that superman states "castling" which seems to indicate that castling was always to pretend that hawkman knocked superman out.

#23 Posted by D3athstroke (3911 posts) - - Show Bio

Really ? Hawkman ? Hercules kills him with one slap.

#24 Edited by PowerHerc (83401 posts) - - Show Bio

Hawkman having the Claw of Horus doesn't mean he'll be able to use it effectively against Hercules and nothing else in his arsenal is enough to finish Hercules. Conversely, all Hercules has to do is land one good shot and it's nuh-night for Hawkman.

Hercules wins this one.

#25 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3393 posts) - - Show Bio

@d3athstroke: Really ? Hawkman ? Hercules kills him with one slap. It's going to take a whole lot more than "one slap" to kill or even KO Hawkman considering that his resistance to blunt force trauma has proven sufficient enough to allow him to withstand multiple blows from the likes of Solomon Grundy and Black Adam (both easily within Hercules' peer group strength-wise) and still remain conscious afterward.

@jashro44: Hmm.. You may have a point. Hawkman did smash Superman's face up pretty good, but it's 50/50 on whether he was out cold (even for the briefest of moments) to facilitate the ruse he had planned. I can't remember if Supes/Bats knew that Cap & Hawkman specifically were coming after them, considering how many diverse groups of both heroic and villainous Metas that had already faced up till that point in the story, but I guess that's another story for another day perhaps. What we do know is that even if Superman feigned unconsciousness, the Claw is still plenty powerful enough to shatter a Kryptonian's nose and send him flying (or would that be plummeting) hundreds of miles away. That's serious damage output that Hercules is certainly going to notice if not be BFR'ed by. I haven't even mentioned the other Nth Metal weapons possible effect(s) on Hercules' mystically sourced strength and durability yet, because I need a little more info on that before offering up an opinion on it.

#26 Posted by jashro44 (20849 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: I agree the claw is going to do damage to hercules and I wasn't really saying who wins (I'm sure if the first hit doesn't end the fight a few more hits with the claw would). I was mostly just saying superman wasn't one shotted because people always say that when the claw is brought up.

#27 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3393 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I agree the claw is going to do damage to hercules and I wasn't really saying who wins (I'm sure if the first hit doesn't end the fight a few more hits with the claw would). I was mostly just saying superman wasn't one shotted because people always say that when the claw is brought up.

Gotcha. I can't speak for "them", but I've always thought what knocked Superman loopy was a combination of both the Claw AND that hard assed fall and impact into the ground as a result of it. But yeah, multiple blows? That's some nasty ish right there, especially considering how agile Hawkman is and would be in a fight like this.

#28 Posted by HellionVulcan (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

Hawkman having the Claw of Horus doesn't mean he'll be able to use it effectively against Hercules and nothing else in his arsenal is enough to finish Hercules. Conversely, all Hercules has to do is land one good shot and it's nuh-night for Hawkman.

Hercules wins this one.

I agree even if Herc did a thunderclap he can stun Hawkman then slaughter him in a ground & pound .

#29 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules wins.

The Claw of Horus knocked Supes down for a grand total of about 3 seconds.

#30 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm banking on Hercules for reasons stated above. I prefer Hawkman though.

#31 Edited by BigCimmerian (8149 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules destroys him, more equal fight would be mortal Hercules with Mythological weapons agains Hawkman without claw of Horus.