HASHIRAMA AND MADARA VS HIRUZEN AND MINATO!!!

Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha face off against Hiruzen Sarutobi and Minato Namikaze. Everyone here is in their Prime....this is not edo tensei madara but he does have his rinnegan.

Everyone is bloodlusted with no morals.

Fight takes place in the valley of the end

Who wins???

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

Senju alone defeated Madara with the nine tailed fox (if I remember correctly) Add Madara and that should be enough to kill Hiruzen and Minato...

@ghost_rider1 said:

@JamesKM716

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

What?! How??

You shouldn't give Madara the Rinnegan. It's not fair. That means he has the 1st Hokage's DNA put in himself (that's the only way the rinnegan existed on him) so therefore it's just like his Edo self but without infinite stamina and chakra.

Team 1 is superior in every way, but speed.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@JamesKM716

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

What?! How??

You shouldn't give Madara the Rinnegan. It's not fair. That means he has the 1st Hokage's DNA put in himself (that's the only way the rinnegan existed on him) so therefore it's just like his Edo self but without infinite stamina and chakra.

Team 1 is superior in every way, but speed.

If this was part 1 i'd give it to Team 2 but Team 1 has set the 1rst up to be invincible with Madara shortly behind him with Rinnegan

If this was part 1 i'd give it to Team 2 but Team 1 has set the 1rst up to be invincible with Madara shortly behind him with Rinnegan

@JamesKM716 said:

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

If this was part 1 i'd give it to Team 2 but Team 1 has set the 1rst up to be invincible with Madara shortly behind him with Rinnegan

That's not true. Madara is invincible because he has unlimited chakra and stamina and can't be killed by normal attacks. If he was normal it is impossible for him to beat all 5 kages. He would have ran out of chakra long ago. And hiruzen beat the 1st and 2nd hokage with help from orochimaru by himself. I think team 2 would win with hiruzen in his prime.

It's just the way Kishi has been setting it up

Team 1 wins, easily.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@jeanroygrant

Team 1 is superior in every way, but speed.

No there not

Yes they are, explain how there not,

@ghost_rider1 said:

@jeanroygrant

Team 1 is superior in every way, but speed.

No there not

Yes they are, explain how there not,

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

team one destroy team 2!!

team one destroy team 2!!

team one destroy team 2!!

Senju alone defeated Madara with the nine tailed fox (if I remember correctly) Add Madara and that should be enough to kill Hiruzen and Minato...

Team One wins fairly easy. Madara just uses Perfect Susanoo and stomps Minato and Hiruzen literally steps on them and kills them.

@ghost_rider1: But in his prime, Hiruzen is featless. His only showing happened when he was an old man. And like I mentioned before, Kishimoto basically retconned the strength of Hashirama and Tobirama in part II. Its incredulous to think that the Third from part I could face Hashirama from part II.

@ghost_rider1: But in his prime, Hiruzen is featless. His only showing happened when he was an old man. And like I mentioned before, Kishimoto basically retconned the strength of Hashirama and Tobirama in part II. Its incredulous to think that the Third from part I could face Hashirama from part II.

Still going with Team 1....Yes The 3rd held his own against 1st and 2nd but only pulled out a win due to the reaper seal throughout the fight he literally had his back against the wall and was nearly overwhelmed till he got some breathing space from summoning Enma and did the reaper death seal if it continued any further he would have been slain.

Through Madara's showings you get a taste of what the 1st is capable of whom he constantly praised throughout his fight with the kages

Plus Madara has the rinnengan giving him access to the 6 paths and the EMS combined with Hashirama's wood style whom madara's doesn't even hold a candle to by his word of mouth and his unparalleled Healing without forming hand signals.

This isn't all of the fight down below...

Team 1 takes this.

@SlimJ87D

@ghost_rider1 said:

@JamesKM716

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

What?! How??

You shouldn't give Madara the Rinnegan. It's not fair. That means he has the 1st Hokage's DNA put in himself (that's the only way the rinnegan existed on him) so therefore it's just like his Edo self but without infinite stamina and chakra.

The third hokage is said to be the most powerful of all hokages when he was in his prime so no....they don't win by a lot. The third fought the fist and second hokage and would have beaten them had it not been for the reanimation jutsu. So tell me again how they gonna beat the 3rd in his prime when he could beat the 1st and 2nd hokage when he was old? U add the 4th hokage to that and they win

@ghost_rider1 said:

@SlimJ87D

@ghost_rider1 said:

@JamesKM716

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

What?! How??

You shouldn't give Madara the Rinnegan. It's not fair. That means he has the 1st Hokage's DNA put in himself (that's the only way the rinnegan existed on him) so therefore it's just like his Edo self but without infinite stamina and chakra.

The third hokage is said to be the most powerful of all hokages when he was in his prime so no....they don't win by a lot. The third fought the fist and second hokage and would have beaten them had it not been for the reanimation jutsu. So tell me again how they gonna beat the 3rd in his prime when he could beat the 1st and 2nd hokage when he was old? U add the 4th hokage to that and they win

That's fine. I know all about the third and his data book stats and everything. But first Orochimaru didn't even master the Edo Tensei, Kabuto says so himself. Second, how do we know that the first and second weren't controlled by Orochimaru and they weren't fighting to their full abilities? I'm not trying to underestimate the Third, I know he's the best. But you're unerestimating Madara with the rinnegan. Like I said, Madara with the Rinnegan would be exactly how he is now but without infinite Stamina and chakra. Lastly, we don't even have many feats from a young third hokage.  
 
You said that the third beat the 1st, that's a load of bull, he had to sacrifice his life to seal them and he was sealed along with them. That's not really a win. 

@ghost_rider1 said:

@SlimJ87D

@ghost_rider1 said:

@SlimJ87D

@ghost_rider1 said:

@JamesKM716

Team 1 wins.... by a lot.

What?! How??

You shouldn't give Madara the Rinnegan. It's not fair. That means he has the 1st Hokage's DNA put in himself (that's the only way the rinnegan existed on him) so therefore it's just like his Edo self but without infinite stamina and chakra.

The third hokage is said to be the most powerful of all hokages when he was in his prime so no....they don't win by a lot. The third fought the fist and second hokage and would have beaten them had it not been for the reanimation jutsu. So tell me again how they gonna beat the 3rd in his prime when he could beat the 1st and 2nd hokage when he was old? U add the 4th hokage to that and they win

That's fine. I know all about the third and his data book stats and everything. But first Orochimaru didn't even master the Edo Tensei, Kabuto says so himself. Second, how do we know that the first and second weren't controlled by Orochimaru and they weren't fighting to their full abilities? I'm not trying to underestimate the Third, I know he's the best. But you're unerestimating Madara with the rinnegan. Like I said, Madara with the Rinnegan would be exactly how he is now but without infinite Stamina and chakra. Lastly, we don't even have many feats from a young third hokage.

You said that the third beat the 1st, that's a load of bull, he had to sacrifice his life to seal them and he was sealed along with them. That's not really a win.

He would have beat the 1st and 2nd hokage. If u remember correctly. The third hokage blew off their limbs with an explosion tag before he used the reaper death seal. And there body parts reformed again because of the reanimation jutsu so he was forced to seal them. If they were ordinary ninja they would have died right then and there. He had to seal them because of edo tensei. Not because he couldn't beat them.

Here's another thing, in that fight the 1st didn't have access to his surroundings because of that barrier. So his summoning of wood in his surroundings was limited. I really don't think the 1st and 2nd were fighting at %100. I still think that the 3rd is the strongest, his data book entry is impressive.

I bet those stats would be higher if he was younger. But Madara with the 1st cells and those eyes is too much.

@ghost_rider1: I'm aware of that however the 1st and 2nd aren't "ordinary" ninja with or without immortality.

Madara has the Rinnengan He displayed how well he has control over it by effortlessly casting down 2 meteors which is Deva path, and he has used the petra path which allows him to absorb ninjutsu during his fight with the Kages. Top that off with the 1st's wood style which I displayed in my previous post of what he and the 1st would be capable of doing. Even without edo he isn't your standard Naruto ninja he is Madara Uchiha the guy had the 9 tails under his control before his power was even halved by Minato the guy is a force to be reckoned with. For Hashirama he has his Healing skills that would put tsunade to shame and his famous Wood stlye which he would use more proficiently than Madara and he spawned a forest filled with plant spores that incapacitated kages if it weren't for Onoki's dust release to blow away the pores they would have died.

@ghost_rider1: I'm aware of that however the 1st and 2nd aren't "ordinary" ninja with or without immortality.

Madara has the Rinnengan He displayed how well he has control over it by effortlessly casting down 2 meteors which is Deva path, and he has used the petra path which allows him to absorb ninjutsu during his fight with the Kages. Top that off with the 1st's wood style which I displayed in my previous post of what he and the 1st would be capable of doing. Even without edo he isn't your standard Naruto ninja he is Madara Uchiha the guy had the 9 tails under his control before his power was even halved by Minato the guy is a force to be reckoned with. For Hashirama he has his Healing skills that would put tsunade to shame and his famous Wood stlye which he would use more proficiently than Madara and he spawned a forest filled with plant spores that incapacitated kages if it weren't for Onoki's dust release to blow away the pores they would have died.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

Kishi has basically set up Hashirama to be all powerful which is why everyone's running around with his DNA in them. As for Madara beating the 5 kage, I won't even get started on it because I'l go all red lantern on Kishimoto for the BS stunt he pulled with them being defeated. You're right about Edo Madara though

Team 1 stomps the hell out of team 2. Spite.

Uchiha Madara solos

@ghost_rider1 said:

@jeanroygrant

@ghost_rider1 said:

@jeanroygrant

Team 1 is superior in every way, but speed.

No there not

Yes they are, explain how there not,

The third hokage defeated the 1st hokage, 2nd hokage, and orochimaru by himself. The only reason hashirama and tobirama didn't die because of the reanimation jutsu. So the third hokage was force to seal them. Its been said that the 3rd hokage was more powerful than any of the five hokages. And he proved it when he beat them when orochimaru assulted the leaf village. And not only that, he beat all three of them while he was old. Hiruzen is in his prime in this battle. The first hokage is child's play to him right now if he couldn't beat the third whem he was old. And minato speed is too much for hashirama or madara to handle one-on-one

Actually, Mr. Rider, First Hokage was said to be the strongest Ninja alive after the sage. First didn't use a fraction of his speed and power when he fought the first when compared to when he was fighting Madara. You can see he didn't use his wound-healing-without-seals, nor any summons, only one good jutsu used, which was the birth of trees..He could even use wood dragon..Third was getting owned by 9 tails while first had beaten 9 tails + madara. Kishi's statements are contradicting, actually. That is agreeable

. @ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

About every person has naruto has now recited "ohh madara was so awesome only the first could beat him". Its getting seriously irritating. He beat the tsushikage like he was nothing at all. And was playing around with the five and calling them weaklings while they were giving motivating speeches one by one and still getting beat up..

The only problem they have is minato's speed, and sealing. He could blitz one of them and seal him.. That would be really problematic.

Anyway, see here.

First: strongest ninja that ever lived after sage.

third: strongest hokage that was said to have surpassed 1st and 2nd.

These both are official and contradictory. So we should leave them and go by what we see better.

By his speed, strength and all, third seems to be nothing compared to 1st..

@ghost_rider1: Hiruzen is not the strongest of all Hokage! (IMO) First the one he fought in the battle with Oroshimaru was a limited Hashirama, and the only reason people call him (Hiruzen) the strongest of all Hokage is because people think that the power of the first was a fairy tale Just like they think the Sage of the Six Paths power was also a fairy tale, so many people doubt that he was that strong so they state that the third was the Strongest!

Minato's win over Tobito was only decided by a split second difference and he had to give his life to defeat the 9 tales so I doubt that he can beat Madara who is superior to Tobito. And guest what Hashirama is even stronger than Madara he defeated him as well as Kurama without losing his life

An a person who new Hiruzen in his prime Dan Kato the boyfriend of Tsunade say that the only ninja who can fight and win against madara is no other than the deceased first hokage!

Kabuto also say "There is no shinobi alive today who is as powerful as the First Hokage, Senju Hashirama. In fact, many doubt this power "It's time to show them all they are wrong!"

So with the statements of Dan and Kabuto and the feat of Madara yes I believe team one Destroy team 2

1. Hashirama - Strongest
2. Hiruzen - 2nd Strongest but more popular
3. Minato - The one with more potential (was meant to be the strongest if he hasn’t die)

and Madara a Monster that was only match and surpase by the First

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

How do you know they were at full power?

Minato's speed wasn't a problem when he fought Tobi.

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@jeanroygrant

@ghost_rider1 said:

@jeanroygrant

Team 1 is superior in every way, but speed.

No there not

Yes they are, explain how there not,

The third hokage defeated the 1st hokage, 2nd hokage, and orochimaru by himself. The only reason hashirama and tobirama didn't die because of the reanimation jutsu. So the third hokage was force to seal them. Its been said that the 3rd hokage was more powerful than any of the five hokages. And he proved it when he beat them when orochimaru assulted the leaf village. And not only that, he beat all three of them while he was old. Hiruzen is in his prime in this battle. The first hokage is child's play to him right now if he couldn't beat the third whem he was old. And minato speed is too much for hashirama or madara to handle one-on-one

Actually, Mr. Rider, First Hokage was said to be the strongest Ninja alive after the sage. First didn't use a fraction of his speed and power when he fought the first when compared to when he was fighting Madara. You can see he didn't use his wound-healing-without-seals, nor any summons, only one good jutsu used, which was the birth of trees..He could even use wood dragon..Third was getting owned by 9 tails while first had beaten 9 tails + madara. Kishi's statements are contradicting, actually. That is agreeable

. @ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

About every person has naruto has now recited "ohh madara was so awesome only the first could beat him". Its getting seriously irritating. He beat the tsushikage like he was nothing at all. And was playing around with the five and calling them weaklings while they were giving motivating speeches one by one and still getting beat up..

The only problem they have is minato's speed, and sealing. He could blitz one of them and seal him.. That would be really problematic.

Anyway, see here.

First: strongest ninja that ever lived after sage.

third: strongest hokage that was said to have surpassed 1st and 2nd.

These both are official and contradictory. So we should leave them and go by what we see better.

By his speed, strength and all, third seems to be nothing compared to 1st..

@RIKR2 said:

@ghost_rider1: Hiruzen is not the strongest of all Hokage! (IMO) First the one he fought in the battle with Oroshimaru was a limited Hashirama, and the only reason people call him (Hiruzen) the strongest of all Hokage is because people think that the power of the first was a fairy tale Just like they think the Sage of the Six Paths power was also a fairy tale, so many people doubt that he was that strong so they state that the third was the Strongest!

Minato's win over Tobito was only decided by a split second difference and he had to give his life to defeat the 9 tales so I doubt that he can beat Madara who is superior to Tobito. And guest what Hashirama is even stronger than Madara he defeated him as well as Kurama without losing his life

An a person who new Hiruzen in his prime Dan Kato the boyfriend of Tsunade say that the only ninja who can fight and win against madara is no other than the deceased first hokage!

Kabuto also say "There is no shinobi alive today who is as powerful as the First Hokage, Senju Hashirama. In fact, many doubt this power "It's time to show them all they are wrong!"

So with the statements of Dan and Kabuto and the feat of Madara yes I believe team one Destroy team 2

1. Hashirama - Strongest
2. Hiruzen - 2nd Strongest but more popular
3. Minato - The one with more potential (was meant to be the strongest if he hasn’t die)

and Madara a Monster that was only match and surpase by the First

Also he didn't even summon his really powerful wood dragon, that bounded the 9 tailed fox. ( This was seen in the Naruto Manga's latest chapter )

Kishimoto said himself that if Minato and Hashirama got in a fight that it would be a tie.

As for Madara we don't know how Hashirama beat him he could of had Tobirama help him. We already know that Mito Uzumaki his wife helped him with the Nine Tails.

And that was just EMS Madara if he had Rinnegan he would have owned Hashirama for sure. So i will go with team 1 for those reasons.

@jeanroygrant said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

How do you know they were at full power?

Minato's speed wasn't a problem when he fought Tobi.

What do you mean? Minato blitzed Tobi and hit him with a Rasengan so fast that Tobi couldn't keep up or activate Kamui bute chapter that came out yesterday contradicts that whole fight and creates an inconsistentcy and plothole

@nishi99: Kishimoto has been creating inconsistencies and plotholes during these last 30 chapters and everything he's been doing in them contradicts what you said that he said about Minato and Hashirama, so I find it hard to believe anything he says

@nishi99: Really? I didn't know that..

@nishi99 said:

Kishimoto said himself that if Minato and Hashirama got in a fight that it would be a tie.

As for Madara we don't know how Hashirama beat him he could of had Tobirama help him. We already know that Mito Uzumaki his wife helped him with the Nine Tails.

And that was just EMS Madara if he had Rinnegan he would have owned Hashirama for sure. So i will go with team 1 for those reasons.

Where did you get this information from? I don't remember Kishimoto ever saying Minato was even remotely equal to Hashirama. Also Hashirama fought Madara by himself, Madara states that Hashirama was his better. Why would Madara consider Hashirama equal if he had back up? Also Mito did not help Hashirama with the battle at all. Hashirama sealed the creature with his own wood jutsu and Mito allowed it to be sealed in her. The amount of misinformation that is spreading around is not helping this thread at all.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

Madara activates perfect susano and it's over. You don't need to be an edo for that.

Current Madara, even without his edo abilites, would still be the strongest character seen thus far (the only one coming close being BM Naruto). Sorry but this is a stomp, I would be tempted to say that Madara could solo.

There are massive holes in the claims that Hashirama was as strong as he is meant to be. To name but a few:

1. (Starting with the most recent) That wood dragon was meant to have been able to hold the complete Kyuubi, yet Naruto seems to be dealing with it ok.

2. Isn't it strange that Madara and Hashirama fought many, many times and were considered rivals, yet with the addition of the Kyuubi Madara still lost?

3. I don't care if Orochimaru wasn't giving them free reign of their abilities, if Hashirama had been that strong he would have annihilated Sarutobi in seconds.

But as I say, Madara with rinnegan may actually be able to solo; it's a bad matchup for the 4th (for the same reasons I used in the Minato vs Itachi thread on animevice) as Madara can be protected by Susanoo and nothing that the 4th (or the 3rd, for that matter) has shown could get through it. The reaper death seal might be able to win it for them though (Madara could get cocky and underestimate them), but if Madara is going for the kill then I don't see them winning. Add Hashirama to that and it's goodbye team 2.

@girugamesh said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

Madara activates perfect susano and it's over. You don't need to be an edo for that.

Current Madara, even without his edo abilites, would still be the strongest character seen thus far (the only one coming close being BM Naruto). Sorry but this is a stomp, I would be tempted to say that Madara could solo.

There are massive holes in the claims that Hashirama was as strong as he is meant to be. To name but a few:

1. (Starting with the most recent) That wood dragon was meant to have been able to hold the complete Kyuubi, yet Naruto seems to be dealing with it ok.

2. Isn't it strange that Madara and Hashirama fought many, many times and were considered rivals, yet with the addition of the Kyuubi Madara still lost?

3. I don't care if Orochimaru wasn't giving them free reign of their abilities, if Hashirama had been that strong he would have annihilated Sarutobi in seconds.

But as I say, Madara with rinnegan may actually be able to solo; it's a bad matchup for the 4th (for the same reasons I used in the Minato vs Itachi thread on animevice) as Madara can be protected by Susanoo and nothing that the 4th has shown could get through it. The reaper death seal might be able to win it for them though (Madara could get cocky and underestimate them); but if Madara is going for the kill then I don't see them winning. Add Hashirama to that and it's goodbye team 2.

I'll answer some of those for you.

1. That isn't the real Naruto and Kurama it's just a clone, which is why what Madara said about holding back because Naruto was a jinchuriki is contradictory to what he said earlier about realizing that the Naruto they're fightng is a clone.

2. We still have no idea how Hashirama defeated Madara

3. Orochimaru's edo tensei was imperfect thus Hashirama and Tobimara weren't brought back to full power.

As for Madara soloing, it seems that way because we have no idea what Hiruzen, Minato, or what Hashirama could truely do, but so far in Shippuden Kishimoto has been creating inconstienties to contradict what was already previously established and basically setting Hashirama up to be UBER strong, even though Hiruzen was stated to be stronger

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@girugamesh said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

Madara activates perfect susano and it's over. You don't need to be an edo for that.

Current Madara, even without his edo abilites, would still be the strongest character seen thus far (the only one coming close being BM Naruto). Sorry but this is a stomp, I would be tempted to say that Madara could solo.

There are massive holes in the claims that Hashirama was as strong as he is meant to be. To name but a few:

1. (Starting with the most recent) That wood dragon was meant to have been able to hold the complete Kyuubi, yet Naruto seems to be dealing with it ok.

2. Isn't it strange that Madara and Hashirama fought many, many times and were considered rivals, yet with the addition of the Kyuubi Madara still lost?

3. I don't care if Orochimaru wasn't giving them free reign of their abilities, if Hashirama had been that strong he would have annihilated Sarutobi in seconds.

But as I say, Madara with rinnegan may actually be able to solo; it's a bad matchup for the 4th (for the same reasons I used in the Minato vs Itachi thread on animevice) as Madara can be protected by Susanoo and nothing that the 4th has shown could get through it. The reaper death seal might be able to win it for them though (Madara could get cocky and underestimate them); but if Madara is going for the kill then I don't see them winning. Add Hashirama to that and it's goodbye team 2.

I'll answer some of those for you.

1. That isn't the real Naruto and Kurama it's just a clone, which is why what Madara said about holding back because Naruto was a jinchuriki is contradictory to what he said earlier about realizing that the Naruto they're fightng is a clone.

2. We still have no idea how Hashirama defeated Madara

3. Orochimaru's edo tensei was imperfect thus Hashirama and Tobimara weren't brought back to full power.

As for Madara soloing, it seems that way because we have no idea what Hiruzen, Minato, or what Hashirama could truely do, but so far in Shippuden Kishimoto has been creating inconstienties to contradict what was already previously established and basically setting Hashirama up to be UBER strong, even though Hiruzen was stated to be stronger

1. No, pretty sure this is the real Naruto.

Madara: "I was trying to hold back because you're the real jinchuuriki". He's holding back because this is the real Naruto; he can't afford to kill him or his plan is screwed. The clone was the one before who was repelled by the fan.

2. I agree, which is why I say it's very dubious that Hashirama was indeed that strong.

3. Wrong, Orochimaru was the one who perfected it. The Hashirama who fought Sarutobi didn't have free reign over his powers so he wouldn't have been able to fight as well, but he still had the same level of power, which is why I say it's BS that he didn't wipe the floor with the 3rd going by shippuden claims.

Proof that Orochimaru perfected the technique:

"Perfected by Orochimaru-sama".

@girugamesh said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@girugamesh said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

@ghost_rider1 said:

@redbird3rdboywonder

Kishimoto don't know what he talking about because when the first hokage was introduced. He got a butt kicking from the 3rd. And it was said that the first hokage is stronger than anyone alive right now....none of those kage is any match for the 3rd or 4th hokage is they were still alive. Raikage said no one could surpass the 4th hokage and the third hokage is more powerful than minto. I think the 3rd and 4th hokage is more powerful than the 1st hokage

Kishi has basically retconned it

Most ppl that's reading the manga feel like they're invincible when they actually are not. If madara wasn't in edo tensei then he would have lost to the 5 kage. But since his chakra is unlimited. They cannot beat him. Hashirama isn't as invincible as ppl think if the third could beat him while he was old. Ppl think madara and hashirama is stronger than what they actually are because of edo tensei. And madara said only hashirama could beat him. If the third or fourth hokage was still alive they could beat madara or hashirana if they are not in edo tensei mode.

Madara activates perfect susano and it's over. You don't need to be an edo for that.

Current Madara, even without his edo abilites, would still be the strongest character seen thus far (the only one coming close being BM Naruto). Sorry but this is a stomp, I would be tempted to say that Madara could solo.

There are massive holes in the claims that Hashirama was as strong as he is meant to be. To name but a few:

1. (Starting with the most recent) That wood dragon was meant to have been able to hold the complete Kyuubi, yet Naruto seems to be dealing with it ok.

2. Isn't it strange that Madara and Hashirama fought many, many times and were considered rivals, yet with the addition of the Kyuubi Madara still lost?

3. I don't care if Orochimaru wasn't giving them free reign of their abilities, if Hashirama had been that strong he would have annihilated Sarutobi in seconds.

But as I say, Madara with rinnegan may actually be able to solo; it's a bad matchup for the 4th (for the same reasons I used in the Minato vs Itachi thread on animevice) as Madara can be protected by Susanoo and nothing that the 4th has shown could get through it. The reaper death seal might be able to win it for them though (Madara could get cocky and underestimate them); but if Madara is going for the kill then I don't see them winning. Add Hashirama to that and it's goodbye team 2.

I'll answer some of those for you.

1. That isn't the real Naruto and Kurama it's just a clone, which is why what Madara said about holding back because Naruto was a jinchuriki is contradictory to what he said earlier about realizing that the Naruto they're fightng is a clone.

2. We still have no idea how Hashirama defeated Madara

3. Orochimaru's edo tensei was imperfect thus Hashirama and Tobimara weren't brought back to full power.

As for Madara soloing, it seems that way because we have no idea what Hiruzen, Minato, or what Hashirama could truely do, but so far in Shippuden Kishimoto has been creating inconstienties to contradict what was already previously established and basically setting Hashirama up to be UBER strong, even though Hiruzen was stated to be stronger

1. No, pretty sure this is the real Naruto.

Madara: "I was trying to hold back because you're the real jinchuuriki". He's holding back because this is the real Naruto; he can't afford to kill him or his plan is screwed. The clone was the one before who was repelled by the fan.

2. I agree, which is why I say it's very dubious that Hashirama was indeed that strong.

3. Wrong, Orochimaru was the one who perfected it. The Hashirama who fought Sarutobi didn't have free reign over his powers so he wouldn't have been able to fight as well, but he still had the same level of power, which is why I say it's BS that he didn't wipe the floor with the 3rd going by shippuden claims.

Proof that Orochimaru perfected the technique:

"Perfected by Orochimaru-sama".

1. It isn't the real Naruto, if it was that would contradict with the first statement Madara made when he joined Obito. He said" This is just a KageBushin, Obito where's the real one" and Obito never replied.

2. Agreed

3. No I'm not wrong Kabuto went on to later state that Orochimaru sama hadn't even perfected it to the level Kabuto had