Harley Quinn vs Shredder

Nope, she is largely outmatched in every category here. She may be relatively even in regards to agility due to being a well trained gymnast but she gets brutally stomped here and quite easily by Shredder. She lacks the skill, the speed and the durability to take on Shredder, especially with his bladed claws. Harley is a decent combatant at best. Shredder is arguably top-tier, undoubtedly so in his own universe.

@deranged_midget:

She lacks the skill

She went through a Themiscyran boot camp and was one of their star pupils. If you consider amazon training to be so inconsequential I hope to not see you later saying "WW owns because of skill".

the speed

Regularly dodges bulletfire, quite literally speedblitzed Joker, blitzed Batman....

and the durability

Tanked Tim Drake's staff directly to the face, has been squashed flat by machinery, regenerated from bullet wounds, strangled by Killer Croc....

Harley is a decent combatant at best.

Because you've seen so many that are better than her. Oh wait, no you haven't, because every top-tier fighter that's fought Harley has lost.

@joygirl:

She went through a Themiscyran boot camp and was one of their star pupils. If you consider amazon training to be so inconsequential I hope to not see you later saying "WW owns because of skill".

When did I ever state that Amazonian training was inconsequential. Please don't toss words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it. Amazonian training is impressive, no doubt about it, but besides Diana and Artemis, the measuring stick isn't all that distinguishable to consider her top tier for coming out on top against nameless Amazonians. Doesn't make it any less impressive though.

Regularly dodges bulletfire, quite literally speedblitzed Joker, blitzed Batman....

Dodging gunfire is regularly performed by almost any degree of street levellers in both Marvel and DC. I wouldn't exactly quote that as impressive in any regard. Joker is an unpredictable combatant, which makes him a large threat, but he's never displayed anything of import to dignify him being blitzed as noteworthy nor does his fighting style instil such graciousness either. If you want to go that point, Batman has been blitzed by thugs before.

Tanked Tim Drake's staff directly to the face, has been squashed flat by machinery, regenerated from bullet wounds, strangled by Killer Croc....

Interesting, I'm generally interested in seeing a scan of her being squashed by machinery. Again, almost every street-leveller has interacted with gunfire by this point and has been likely shot, although I am well aware of Harley's healing factor and I've seen some instances when she's healed rather quickly. Care to confirm how consistent that is? From the fight with Croc, she was largely dependant on objects in the environment to even stand a chance against Croc.

Because you've seen so many that are better than her. Oh wait, no you haven't, because every top-tier fighter that's fought Harley has lost.

Relax with the hostility, it's just a discussion. When has Harley ever displayed consistent level of feats to put her on a top-tier list or even remotely close to it? She's never soundly defeated or even held her own against the likes of Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, or Batman just to point out a few in a straight up fight or at least not consistently. She has the overall physicality to keep up with them sure, but to defeat them and possess a similar degree of skill? Highly doubtful especially since there's never been interactions of that sort. Harley's biggest advantage against most street-levellers is her greater physical capabilities which keeps her moving and avoiding attacks, I'll give her that much, but as I said, she lacks the feats to assume that she's "top-tier" just because she's had a run with Bruce where she avoided his attacks. Not exactly a display of skill as much as it is a display of agility and generally being quicker on her feet.

To be honest, a lot of the fights against higher-tier and stronger opponents, I've seen Harley fall back upon utilizing objects in the environment to her advantage. In this case, in a dojo no less, she lacks that luxury. Not to say she can't hold her own as she does have noteworthy physical feats and the physical gap between her and Shredder is relatively minor in terms of strength so there won't be a deciding factor relying on that, but it all comes down to skill and experience and to be frank, Shredder has her outmatched in that regard as he's been largely more consistent in that category.

A little alarming how large quantities of PIS somehow mark Harley as a top-tier fighter all of a sudden.

lol. This is hilarious.

@deranged_midget: I'm working on revamping her respect thread right now to make it more readable (it's taking considerable time).

The flattened feat is hearsay but I do have the scan, it's one of Joker's minions saying that while they were working on the carnival, the giant mallet "squashed her flat", but she "bounced right back from it". I'll link the respect thread when I finish it.

She's never fought Deathstroke or Shiva. She HAS fought Batman on multiple occasions and always beats him. She also humiliated Cass Cain without gear -- and you're downplaying Joker a bit. He has a list of feats a mile long in h2h, which includes beating Nightwing and Ra's al Ghul.

Sorry, I didn't mean to snip. I have had to endure years of people dismissing Harley as a non-tiered fighter without actually knowing what she's capable of.

Cool, I'll be interested to check out the updated scans of that. I'll keep an eye out for that!

She HAS fought Batman, but she's never outright defeated him. She's gotten the better of him by smacking him on the back of his head with her mallet and she's utilized her agility to escape his holds whenever he grabbed her, but she's never flat out embarrassed him or defeated him in a fight. He's even gone to a point in Pre-52, Hush to be exact, where when he became serious, he discarded her completely as he charged for "Joker".

When has Harley ever defeated Cass in a full on hand-to-hand fight? This is the girl who's taken on her mother and even gotten the better of Bruce on more than one occasion. I might be downplaying Joker a bit, but like I said, he manages to hold his own primarily because of his chaotic and unpredictable nature, not because of defined experience and skill in the same vein as top-tiers.

Honestly, Harley may have had one-ups on a few top-tiers at one time or another but I've never seen consistency. That's my main issue.

@deranged_midget: Have fun. As far as consistency... *shrug* Maybe because I read Harley comics instead of Batman comics? But I've always seen her to be pretty freakin' consistent as that (rather extensive) respect thread should indicate.

@joygirl: I've gone through various respect threads and read a decent amount of Harley content myself (excellent job with the scans by the way), but nothing strikes out as being top tier or consistently defeating or taking on top tier characters. For example (but not targeted towards top-tier), she was basically obliterated in her fight against Croc, with her saving grace being the use of the environment to her advantage and catching Croc off guard when he thought she was out for the count. In her fight against Bruce that you mentioned, Harley's meta-human agility saved her from being trapped in Bruce's hold and her greater physical speed allowed her to avoid him for the most part.

Look at it whichever way you want I guess, to each their own.

@deranged_midget: If memory serves, both of those happened before her amazon training (COULD be wrong here), but whether it's skill or speed or agility or strength, those things still happened. She was able to dance around the Bat and she had after-effects while fighting Joker.

Re: Croc:

- Croc actually got the jump on her.

- Yeah she used her environment. Bowling pins, and a bowling ball. In this encounter with Shredder she gets standard gear which will include firearms, her hammer, explosives, her boxing glove, her popgun (which breaks bones), and possibly Joker Venom.

Worst case scenario -- Harley starts losing the fight (doubtful), takes a few hits (which she starts regenning), and drops a joker venom bomb at her own feet that does nothing of note to her and puts a smile on Shredder's face.

Not to mention the fact that Shredder is arrogant and angry -- when he starts getting outpaced by a clown that never stops taunting him he's gonna start getting sloppy, then she's gonna bring the hammer down.

Harley Quinn vs Shredder? And I thought Batman fans were bad (I hate them!) I can't believe you guys are even debating this. Harley Quinn vs Shredder? Shredder would win easily without any effort, she has no fighting skills, she isn't that smart. She's just Joker's idiot sidekick. I could beat Harley Quinn lmao.

@johnny_blaze: Either learn something or go away.

shredder pounded on the turtles who im positive each and everyone of them on their own could beat harley.

@joygirl: Listen miss, don't get mad at me for telling the truth. She is outmatched, deal with it kid & don't be rude next time.

@johnny_blaze: I don't have to get mad at you for telling the truth when I can get mad at you for lying instead. <3

I'm really impressed with the amount of feats you've brought up about her. I don't personally consider the ones you have mentioned anything better then Shredder's feats, besides maybe having a healing factor (Shredder did have his leg regrow itself, but it's assumed that was a one time thing), but it made me at least reconsider this as not a complete stomp.

The only thing I completely disagree with you on is Shedder getting sloppy if he gets angry. You're talking about a guy who has climbed the ranks to the top of the Foot Clan three times in three different life times. The foot soldiers have been shown to be highly trained and disciplined both in ancient Japan, and more recently when Karai reformed the foot clan to become a warrior clan again. Every time Shredder has been around, he's been the best of all of them (an argument can be made that Splinter was a rival for this spot too in their past lives).

When he was young, he had instances of showing his anger, but it never made him sloppy. If anything, it made him more dangerous. Shredder may get angry, but he is a very disciplined warrior who would never be swayed by taunting. Three lifetime's of living a strict warrior's life will do that for him. He was angry when he claimed the foot clan as his to lead after all.

One other point that makes me think Shredder will win, is that the IDW TMNT has only been in print for barely 2 years. On top of that, Shredder did not make an actual appearance until somewhere around the 5th monthly issue. That has left him a very short time (just over a year and a half), but he already has enough feats to make a respect page for him (I did!). Every feat Shredder has, has been at a top tier for street level. He hasn't had any even mediocre feats yet. The only times where it can be said he has lost, has been against Splinter. That's not really all that negative, seeing how Splinter has a huge list of incredible street level feats already as well.

Harley Quinn has been a part of DC comics for 20 years now, yet Shredder already can match (if not exceed) Harley Quinn for high level feats.

Also, nice work on the respect page. You've put together an awesome list and there are some nice feats I haven't seen from her on it.

@tparks: I'm not sure that "he's younger and has good feats, so his feats are better" is a winning argument but as long as you acknowledge that Shredder doesn't "zomg stomp" I'm fine (since that is obviously not true).

I'm in a delicate state right now. What's happening with Harley is just... it's too much. o____o

@joygirl: lol. The fact that she's in a thread with someone that is being considered top tier shows that she is starting to be considered a high level street level character by more and more people, even if some people think she loses. Even though I think Shredder wins, this isn't anywhere near a spite battle. This is a great fight, that I think HQ has the chance to pull out wild card wins. I don't think she can hang with him in terms of pure fighting skills, but a lucky hammer swing, or a shot from her pop gun would definitely KO Shred Head.

Also, I wasn't saying his feats are better because he is younger, I was saying that he has had a small amount of time to put together a very impressive list of feats. It's taken Harley Quinn 20 years to put together a great list. To be fair though, HQ was written off as a sidekick that didn't have a chance to shine for a very long time, where Shredder is the main villain for the Turtles.

@joygirl: So what exactly am I lying about? Since you know everything.

Dude she will always be a sidekick lol, just accept it. She's okay character but none of the feats that I have seen are convincing. Shredder takes this.

This, since it's equally as untrue as saying you could beat Superman.

Yeah, by "younger" I mean younger in the comics, the way Bleez is 'young' in that she only has about three years of feats to ride on.

And you're right -- she's existed for twenty years but only has canon mainstream comic feats from the last ten or so, and during that time her solo series (where she got the majority of her high-tier feats) was only around 4 years long. *shrug* Ahh well.

Oh, by the way, technically, this thread also includes New 52 Harley who solo'd the Suicide Squad. So actually, including her feats, she stomps.

@johnny_blaze: You're proof that this site needs an ignore function.

@johnny_blaze said:

I wouldn't even consider myself a fan of Harley Quinn. I don't dislike her character, but I've never bought a comic because of her either. She has clearly broken away from being just a side kick though.

I just wrote a Shredder respect thread, but I'll listen and respect anyone's argument if they give good enough evidence like @joygirl has. I still think Shredder wins anywhere from 7-8/10, maybe even 9/10, because I think his fighting skills are quite a bit above HQ's, but I'm not going to completely discount HQ either. I also will be the first to admit that I consider Shredder at a level higher then the average Viner on this site, but IMHO she is just good enough of a fighter to have a chance to get lucky with her pop gun or mallet and KO him.

I may not agree with Joygirl on everything she's said in this thread, but I'm not going to completely write off everything she says just because I have a different opinion, especially when she takes the time to lay out a lot of evidence for her support. It would make my claims that Shredder wins look more like fanboyism with nothing to back it up if I don't at least take the time to process and consider what Joygirl is saying. After looking it over, she's put together some pretty good feats. She's found at least enough to convince me that HQ is not just a featless sidekick, but some one to be taken seriously.

which version of shredder? if its the clown version of the shredder from the 90s, harley takes this. if not shredder stomps

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/dedmans-create-a-tournament-tourney-561607/

@joygirl: I'm glad you got involved in this, it's so hard to use Harley in a worthwhile battle unless you get involved, you need to start spreading the word!

And if I can add my opinion, I personally think Harley should win through gear and speed, although if it did come down to a brawl Shredder should take the win by a slight majority.

Anyone who thinks Harley is a match for Batman,Cass and Croc is kidding themselves,she's Catwoman level at best,good but not enough for the likes of Shredder.

@entropy_aegis: Croc is fodder, any Robin could humiliate him for the majority in almost any scenario, so yeah, Harley would stomp. As for Batman and Cass, as has already been stated, Harley has beat them before so obviously she's a match for them.

Her equipment isn't a joke, I'll give her that. And no, Shredder doesn't get arrogant and angry when he's fighting. Almost every appearance he's been in and even in fights against Splinter where he was seemingly losing, he manages to recouperate and take the fight back into his own hands. He remains cold, calculated and determined.

As I said, Harley may be quick in regards to the likes of non-meta street-levellers but Shredder regularly embarrassed the Turtles and even Splinter on an occasion, all of which are low-level superhumans. Neither Harley or Shredder have a raw physical advantage over one another. It simply comes down to skill and experience, both of which I grant to Shredder.

...There are actual arguments being made for Harley being able to beat Shredder? Wow PIS events against proper martial artists don't count in a proper match up where no plot convenience or use of the environment can help Harley win against a more skilled and brutal foe.

Shredder

You do realize that if Croc is fodder then beating him isn't impressive to even begin with,regardless I disagree with the notion that Croc is a fodder,Batman family characters can beat him but only through smarts and equipment.Harley being able to outright humiliate him physically is bad writing,same goes for her fighting Cass and Batman.Catwoman has fought Grodd and Cheetah,more recently she beat Blockbuster doesn't mean it's legit just saying.

I like how when a character people don't like wins against a character they do like, it's PIS, despite absolutely no evidence that it actually is. All of Harley's feats (discounting Big Barda and the Furies, who I rarely mention) are quantifiable by her enhanced stats, training, ruthlessness, and unpredictability.

@joygirl: I would feel for ya pain of HQ being underestimated, however I'm a Ultimate Marvel fan. I feel no pity, it's just life on the vine. Care to CAV Harley against Werewolf by Night?

@cadencev2: Lemme get back to you on that. :o

@joygirl:

That would be interesting. Please call me out if this happens, because I'll want to check it out.

Some quick thoughts, and if I get a chance, I'll show some scans in a day or two.

Now, this starts with the Turtles. First off, for this new IDW series, let's everyone forget and ignore the old live action movies and cartoons. The IDW incarnation paints the turtles as at least low level meta/superhumans (errr...meta/superturtles) with many of their feats. Fairly casual bullet/laser dodgers, have dominated hordes of bad guys...and I'll try and add something more concrete to paint a better picture if I get a chance to go through my material tomorrow and add the scans. They most definitely have speed and are highly skilled.

Now, Splinter, has at least 2 lifetimes of experience thanks to reincarnation (and his skills and past life are remembered), and excluding the instance of Leo in City Fall (not sure if this will be a consistent thing, since Splinter and the gang were a bit shocked to find Leo on team Shredder), has very easily dominated the foursome while wearing a disguise, dominated hordes of foes, named villains and so on.

The only person to every really hurt Splinter has been, you guessed it, Shredder (and vice versa). Shredder is somewhere in the range of his third reincarnation (remembers his past lives/skills), has dominated the Turtles himself, capable of casually choke holding a turtle in the air (done it to Raph and Leo), and is an all around bad arse. Basically, it's pretty easy to see that Shredder is pretty darn strong, and if not low level meta/superhuman, is skilled enough to dominate low level meta/superhumans with ease.

While looking at the respect thread, her physical stats won't make this an easy fight. I still don't see her beating Shredder though. I'll take Shredder for the majority.

Really now I know Harley has some enhancements, but people really get ridiculous with her. Shredder stomps harder than Nightwing, Batman, Ra's, and a bunch of other people would.

In a pure hand-to-hand fight, Harley would be dominated by Shredder; in a prep battle, I believe Harley should take Shredder handily due to all those years being with the Joker. However, this battle has no factors of preparation nor is there an advantage to either combatant when it comes to the environment. If Harley has her standard equipment, her joker bombs, and Mallet, she has a slim chance to win. The Joker bombs would be quite a huge factor here since Harley can just toss them, then run somewhere else. The Mallet is no concern, since Shredder has been a weapons master for centuries, he's dealt with hundreds of melee weapons, I don't believe Harley would be able to land a hit on Shredder with her Mallet. There's no denying that Harley is extremely fast, but we must remember that Shredder is a master when it comes to melee weapons. So, Harley's bombs would be the biggest concern here, but if they're gas I think Shredder can just hold his breath for an extended period of time due to his training.

Shredder for the beat down.

HQ has a chance with Joker Gas.

Shredder

@thewhiteronin: Shredder has weapons from Dimension x

Shredder due to his stupidly superior skill and more experience. Harley is not better than the turtles, at least not Leo, individually let alone as a team.

That said, Harley remains one of the best DC characters while Shredder is a jerk.

Harley gets shredded.

Shredder murderstomps.

Spite against Harley

Shredder stomps.