#1 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

I think sodam but my buddy and my cousin think hal....who would win?

#2 Posted by Abocado (666 posts) - - Show Bio

As GL or as ION?

#3 Edited by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado:

as GL. him being ion would be spite lol

#4 Posted by Abocado (666 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@abocado:

as GL. him being ion would be spite lol

Him who? Sodam

As GL, it has been a consensus that HAL is better.

#5 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado:

sodam yes. that may be consensus but that doesn't mean its right

#6 Edited by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado:

Kyle has the most extravagant feats of any GL because during his time, he was mandated to be depicted with a vivid imagination. (personally I think this is the way GL should be.written).

This being said I don't think Kyle would beat John, because I don't see Kyle matching John's will or expertise. Both are artistically gifted, but John has the added element of Marine corp training, and years of experience on Kyle. Despite Ron Marz off-handed attempt at making it seem like Kyle could beat John, a graphic artist bneating a marine/architect with a GL ring makes no sense. I've seen Merc's argument that Kyle's ring has no limits whatsoever and that;'s how he wins, but I have two scans sitting in my Yahoo, right now that will disprove that (possibly 3 scans. One of Ganthet warning Kyle about his limits. A second of Kyle remembering that John told him to be careful of his ring's limits. Can't remember the other one.)

Hal does not have more impressive feats than John post-crisis (In John and Hal's first fight, John nearly took out Hal with one construct punch, in their second fight John beat Hal), though Hal has pretty much ALL of the feats pre-crisis :P. Hal is the GL poster boy right now, but he does not have more impressive feats than Kyle or John. I've listed a few feats in the John VS Hal thread, but the majority of these things come down to the writer, and their knowledge and understanding of each character. Somehow fans think it makes sense for Professor Zoom or Barry to run around in a circle, creating and air pocket to incapacitate Hal (who is armed with the most powerful weapon in the universe, and automatic shielding) :/. But then at the universal level consider him the greatest GL of all time. No logic is applied to Hal's character. He's the greatest "just cuz." I'm not hearing it. Idiots can stay in la la land believing bull, I'll stick to intelligence and comprehension. Hal has willpower. Kyle has willpower and imagination. John has willpower, intelligence, and imagination (he used to display more creative constructs in his earlier days, now everything is centered on his marine sniper training, similarly Hal used to use boxing gloves, now he usually shoots construct jets [Air force possibly]. The constructs have become more "character conscious" I guess). Also oddly enough, both Kyle and Hal have been owned by Deathstroke (though the Kyle incident makes no sense to me, and I discredit it).

Personally I don't think any human should be considered the greatest, because that makes no sense. There are aliens with interstellar travel capabilites and civilizations billions of years older than human ones.

While people on the vine hate on Sodam Yat, he's an engineer (Like Alan Scott, and a step above an Architect), who rebuilt an alien starship from scratch on his home planet. Arisia and the other vets respect Sodam like one of their own, even though he's new, and Sodam used the Ion power to convert Nero's energy into green and burn out Nero's connection to Ion (to which Kyle said "Hell, I couldn't even do that."). Oh yea, and he's a Daxamite :).

Kreon is characterized as having a mind so fast that his constructs would flicker before you even knew something just happened.

Arkillo has gone toe to toe with Mongul (whose physical stats are above Superman's) without a ring. Translating this over to Kilowog taking Arkillo down with ease, plus the fact that Kilowog is a highly intelligent geneticist (and has even genetically cultured plants with his ring during the Rann-Thanagar War, so could most likely do the same to animal life. I do recall Kyle even augmenting himself with powers before as well).

Mogo is a planent whose psychic abilities are amplified to resonate through the entire universe and choose those who are fearless and honest (thus he already knows the loves, fears, intwentions, and potential of anyone he is aware of). He is also incredibly old and wise, able to generate completely believable hallucinations, and can exponentially increase his gravitational pull at will, not even mentioning the fact that he has a GL ring. The ideas of a planet > the ideas of a human.

Sinestro is a master strategist, Hal is dumb as a doorknob.

People also use the argument that Hal has the greatest willpower. I have never seen this stated. And even if it was, I'd just judo his willpower back at him (Kyle has done this to Grayven's Omega Beams) You'd better have some intelligence coming into battle, not just will. Sinestro has been shown to have greater willpower than Hal, and greater intelligence. No way Hal can beat him in a straight fight.

Using logic most alien species should be superior to humans. And Marines with master degrees in architecture don't lose to graphic artists and test pilots.

Using comic logic, reckless test pilot pwns all.

#7 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

hal is the better gl sure, but sodam yat is better if he uses all of his powers. easily. he's superman....WITH a GL ring. its easily gonna be the daxomite who wins if he blitzes, and uses his strength

#8 Edited by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: i meant "hal is the better gl sure" because thats the general feeling. but i think thats only based on their feats with a gl ring

#10 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@inconvenient_truth:

logically though hl cant be better than Sodam. he's an engineer from a planet whose technology is billions of years ahead of ours...so he has the intelligence edge, he has the physical edge, he has to be equal in will power I mean he was the ion. so aside from feats just because hals got experience over him and has been a lantern longer.

#11 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: i agree. this is essentially Hal vs Superman. only this time superman has a gl ring. sodam wins just like clark wins. if sodam speed blitzed its over, really easily

#12 Edited by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@abocado:

Hal has willpower. Kyle has willpower and imagination. John has willpower, intelligence, and imagination

...

Using comic logic, reckless test pilot pwns all.

Your biased "logic" unfortunately is underselling Hal and making him sound like a reckless idiot who cant think of anything better than a boxing glove to hit bad guys with. That's all, simply, untrue. Just because John is an architect, that in no way implies that he's smarter than Hal. In fact, being a test pilot requires a lot of intelligence. Do you have any idea what test pilots even do? Here's a hint, it's not about flying around doing whatever you want and having fun.

As far as creativity, Hal also has plenty of that. It's true that in the past artists made him create a lot of boxing gloves and shit like that, but that's more a reflection of the lack of creativity of the comic book artists of the time and not of the character. You can see plenty of examples today of Hal creating complex and creative constructs. Maybe your bias is only allowing you to see what you want to see.

Let me point out one other thing about this notion that being an architect or an engineer or artist automatically makes GLs able to create better constructs... here's a couple of scans to contemplate:

Right here we not only get a good idea of why Hal is such a good Lantern, but also why being an architect or artist isnt necessarily so great. Sure, those things can definitely help, but they can also have their drawbacks. Look at the constructs from John... they are very much built like solid objects made in the real world with real world materials that he's familiar with. You can practically see every rivet and screw. Unfortunately, real world objects are constructed like that because of the limitations of the materials and construction methods. You dont have such limitations when you have an AI making your constructs out of energy that's as strong and durable as you want it to be. Adding all this complexity only adds weaknesses and flaws into the constructs that dont need to be there. Also, all the complexity takes longer to think of... unless you're going to tell me that John thinks hundreds or thousands of times faster than Hal? And the same thing for Kyle. Both of these guys are actually wasting time making things overly complex and artistic when they really dont need to. Hal, by his own words, goes for efficiency. He see what he needs to do, and puts all his effort into getting it done as quickly and effectively as possible. I'll take him in a ring construct fight any day. He'll win before the others are done making their beautiful and elaborate... well, whatever they were about to make before they lost the fight.

Lastly, Hal has the best willpower and ability to overcome fear. You can debate whether this is true, but this is what DC has basically portrayed since the silver age. And when you have powers that are based on willpower, then having the best willpower is the key advantage... even over intelligence, creativity, efficiency, or whatever.

I do agree however that Lanterns like Sodam or Mogo start off with a big advantage. If they're not rated higher you can only blame the writers for creating characters that should be more powerful, but not committing to actually making them that way.

#13 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

see its this kind of argument that frustrates me.. everyone else has a reason why theyre good. hals reason is just abstract principles from which im supposed to extrapolate that he is the best lantern. that is facile at best. and aside from john being an architect he's also marine. he has battle training that counts for something in battle.....not to mention john has actually beat hal.... moving on why celebrate hals intelligence and then tell me thinking too much is a hindrance? and what proof do u have that hal overcomes fear better than any other lantern? they all have that same ability or they wouldn't have been chosen. its not biased logic. its just logic. hal is my fav lantern but he's not the best....at least not logically

#14 Edited by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

moving on why celebrate hals intelligence and then tell me thinking too much is a hindrance?

Did you actually read what I wrote? I didnt say that thinking too much or creativity was a hindrance, I even noted that creativity or architectural knowledge could be beneficial. I said that the danger is that they overthink their constructs because they continue to try to do what they used to do instead of adapting to the new power. Making a mechanical device requires a set of skills, which are not necessarily the same as making a good Lantern construct. If John is spending much of his time in a battle figuring out where rivets go, or Kyle is thinking about aesthetics (or even erasing parts he doesnt like... look at the scans), then they are wasting valuable time. Hal is using his brain, but is also focusing on being efficient and getting the job done. He may not make constructs that are as beautiful as Kyle's, or as intricate as John's, but he gets it done as quickly as possible... which is why he's a great Lantern. Remember that the job of a Lantern is to be a space cop, to save lives, and fight evil. How many people might die if you take your time making a fancy construct instead of taking out the bad guy?

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

and what proof do u have that hal overcomes fear better than any other lantern?

I could try to find scans, but it's been that way for a long time. Actually, originally during the SA/BA it was said that Hal had no fear, and that he had unlimited willpower. This fit in with the abilities of the ring at the time, when Hal could literally do whatever he wanted as long as he wanted it badly enough. This eventually changed, and they changed him from not having fear, to overcoming fear.

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

they all have that same ability or they wouldn't have been chosen. its not biased logic. its just logic. hal is my fav lantern but he's not the best....at least not logically

Yes they all do.. Hal, Guy, John, as well as Clark Kent... since it's supposed to be that the ring first found Clark as having the greatest willpower, but turned him down because he wasnt human. Next up was Hal. But, just because they all have the will power to wield the ring doesnt mean they all have the same level of will power.

#15 Edited by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

moving on why celebrate hals intelligence and then tell me thinking too much is a hindrance?

Did you actually read what I wrote? I didnt say that thinking too much or creativity was a hindrance, I even noted that creativity or architectural knowledge could be beneficial. I said that the danger is that they overthink their constructs because they continue to try to do what they used to do instead of adapting to the new power. Making a mechanical device requires a set of skills, which are not necessarily the same as making a good Lantern construct. If John is spending much of his time in a battle figuring out where rivets go, or Kyle is thinking about aesthetics (or even erasing parts he doesnt like... look at the scans), then they are wasting valuable time. Hal is using his brain, but is also focusing on being efficient and getting the job done. He may not make constructs that are as beautiful as Kyle's, or as intricate as John's, but he gets it done as quickly as possible... which is why he's a great Lantern. Remember that the job of a Lantern is to be a space cop, to save lives, and fight evil. How many people might die if you take your time making a fancy construct instead of taking out the bad guy?

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

and what proof do u have that hal overcomes fear better than any other lantern?

I could try to find scans, but it's been that way for a long time. Actually, originally during the SA/BA it was said that Hal had no fear, and that he had unlimited willpower. This fit in with the abilities of the ring at the time, when Hal could literally do whatever he wanted as long as he wanted it badly enough. This eventually changed, and they changed him from not having fear, to overcoming fear.

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

they all have that same ability or they wouldn't have been chosen. its not biased logic. its just logic. hal is my fav lantern but he's not the best....at least not logically

Yes they all do.. Hal, Guy, John, as well as Clark Kent... since it's supposed to be that the ring first found Clark as having the greatest willpower, but turned him down because he wasnt human. Next up was Hal. But, just because they all have the will power to wield the ring doesnt mean they all have the same level of will power.

nope..i didn't read it. I just responded randomly.........let ma put it like this...have you ever been good at something? so good that it just comes to you. its just the way you think? you saying theyre spending time thinking where every nut and bolt goes is debatable. and you just said. the danger is overthinking nd then you told me how smart hal was. so if the two have nothing to do with one another why bring up hals intelligence...... like I said show me where it says hal has "more" will power than the other lanterns. and with all the will power and "no fear" hal may have. john still beat him...

#16 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

and my whole point is that sodam yat could beat them all.

#17 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

I didnt bring up Hal's intelligence, YOU did. You're the one who said that Hal was "dumb as a doorknob". And you claim you're not biased, but call Hal dumb as a doorknob... and then criticize me when I reply to it.

No, Hal is not dumb. He didnt become one of the greatest Lanterns ever by being dumb.

Here is Ganthet saying that Hal was the best Lantern:

As far as winning or losing... anyone at around the same power level can win or lose a fight. That doesnt necessarily prove anything. Everyone in comics at some point wins against those who are more powerful, or jobs to someone who they shouldnt lose to.

Facts are: The ring originally chose Hal and Guy... not John. Ganthet said Hal was the best Lantern, not John.

#18 Posted by TDK_1997 (15005 posts) - - Show Bio

Hal should win.

#19 Posted by King Saturn (224503 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know how Hal would beat ION under normal conditions... is this Sodam Yat the GL ? Even if it was Hal could still be in trouble here because of Yat's Daxomite Powers... he should be able to tear through GL constructs.

#20 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

facts are: john was asked to be a guardian....not hal. and I love how after you go on and on boasting hal to be the greatest lantern... then summarily dismiss when I bring how he lost to john.

#21 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

facts are: john was asked to be a guardian....not hal. and I love how after you go on and on boasting hal to be the greatest lantern... then summarily dismiss when I bring how he lost to john.

I dismiss it because it's irrelevant.

#22 Posted by SOG7dc (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@willpayton:

facts are: john was asked to be a guardian....not hal. and I love how after you go on and on boasting hal to be the greatest lantern... then summarily dismiss when I bring how he lost to john.

I dismiss it because it's irrelevant.

you dismiss it?! lol oh well if you dismiss it then nobody elses opinion matters

#23 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

can hal beat supes or supergirl? i dont think so, now can he beat a "kryptonian" with their same powers that also happens to have a power ring? no probably not. unless theres an agenda behind the writing, but there is no writing here. just powersets, speeds, and well opinions based on that. i just dont see it working out for hal

#24 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup, Hal most likely loses. =(

#25 Edited by New_World_Order (13326 posts) - - Show Bio

Sodam Yat stomps Hal Jordan.

#26 Posted by Immortal777 (7702 posts) - - Show Bio

If Yat has his Superman powerset he should win if not then idk it could go either way as far as I'm concerned.

#27 Posted by Killemall (18639 posts) - - Show Bio

Hal Jordan has shown he is better and being a GL than Yat, specially given the latter doesnt have a lot of feats.

I dont think Ion would change a lot either.

Its just that, in all honestly, Yat should be a whole lot stronger and faster.