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#1 Posted by XiiX (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

H'el VS Thor and Beta Ray Bill

-Win by any means except BFR

-Takes place on a barren planet the size of Jupiter

#2 Posted by Killemall (18252 posts) - - Show Bio

H'el

#3 Posted by WarBlade539 (4495 posts) - - Show Bio

H'el

How powerful is H'El compared to the people the Hammer Brothers have already faced?

#4 Posted by Killemall (18252 posts) - - Show Bio

How powerful is H'El compared to the people the Hammer Brothers have already faced?

That question should never been used against Thor :p it just becomes so hard to answer. The dude has faced beings like Surtur and Glory.. quite a few notches above He'l but consistently He'l seem superior to either.

Although yeah He' l has limited feat.. and i am just waiting for Czarny to appear.

#5 Edited by WarBlade539 (4495 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkazrael999 said:

How powerful is H'El compared to the people the Hammer Brothers have already faced?

That question should never been used against Thor :p it just becomes so hard to answer. The dude has faced beings like Surtur and Glory.. quite a few notches above He'l but consistently He'l seem superior to either.

Although yeah He' l has limited feat.. and i am just waiting for Czarny to appear.

Working together shouldn't Thor and Bill edge out a victory?

I admit that people consider Kryptonians to have nanosecond/speed blitzing ability but the Hammer Brothers (HB) have versatility (interstellar storms, energy blasts), durability and pure striking power. And Bill has faced FTL guys like Surfer and reacted to him bullrushing Bill and speed won't be much of an issue.

I am aware that H'El is some supreme-powerful being. I stopped reading New 52 two years back as I didn't like it. I am gonna be rooting for the HB now but you're welcome to prove me wrong if you like.

#6 Posted by czarny_samael666 (16944 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkazrael999 said:

How powerful is H'El compared to the people the Hammer Brothers have already faced?

That question should never been used against Thor :p it just becomes so hard to answer. The dude has faced beings like Surtur and Glory.. quite a few notches above He'l but consistently He'l seem superior to either.

Although yeah He' l has limited feat.. and i am just waiting for Czarny to appear.

How did You know that I will post something here, while I wasn't present for at least two weeks? :-D

Personally? IDK. I doubt that H'El has needed durability feats, but he should have offensive ones. His problem now is that Superman don't seem to have similar durability feats that could be compared with Thor/BRB's. When he will, H'El's offensive feats will be putted on higher level.

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

#7 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

At least? New 52 Superman is stronger than either hammer bro.

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#8 Edited by Killemall (18252 posts) - - Show Bio

How did You know that I will post something here, while I wasn't present for at least two weeks? :-D

heheheh, i know whenever a Thor thread comes up, you will pop out eventually :p hard to miss.

Personally? IDK. I doubt that H'El has needed durability feats, but he should have offensive ones. His problem now is that Superman don't seem to have similar durability feats that could be compared with Thor/BRB's. When he will, H'El's offensive feats will be putted on higher level.

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

Well given his limited appearence his feats are limited. He fought Superman, Superboy and Wonder Woman together, had Teen Titans clearly helpless against him, srugged off few blows from pissed off Superman, its nice all around, but you wont find the kind of feats and statement you are looking for.

We have a statement saying H'el is more powerful than Superman and Superboy combined, but thats about its, him being stronger isnt mentioned anywhere its just inferred given he beat them, but thats about it.

Buckshot for one doesnt buy it at all, and his stance is pretty unbiased there.

Admittedly you will see He'l feats, presented neatly in this thread against a guy i am arguing, in H'el vs Thanos and his versatility well explained, although the guy continues to ignore everything explained to him about Thanos so dont wanna complement his too much :p he also went on to say H'el would beat Odin which is well... dont have words to describe.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/h-el-vs-thanos-1501039/?page=2

That sort of gives you an idea of who H'el is and its pretty much everything H'el has done.

Hope that helps.

#9 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

At least? New 52 Superman is stronger than either hammer bro.

According to what?

Thor recently was destroying planets as a side effect of his fight with Gorr.

Both Hammer Brothers have better strength showings that New52 Superman.

#10 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor recently was destroying planets as a side effect of his fight with Gorr.

That's damage output, no doubt Thor has Clark beat in that regard. But I'm talking actual, raw physical strength. Pushing, lifting, pulling etc.

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#11 Posted by czarny_samael666 (16944 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

At least? New 52 Superman is stronger than either hammer bro.

I see Thor above planetaruy level due to his fights with PG Drax, but it is close.

@czarny_samael666 said:

How did You know that I will post something here, while I wasn't present for at least two weeks? :-D

heheheh, i know whenever a Thor thread comes up, you will pop out eventually :p hard to miss.

Personally? IDK. I doubt that H'El has needed durability feats, but he should have offensive ones. His problem now is that Superman don't seem to have similar durability feats that could be compared with Thor/BRB's. When he will, H'El's offensive feats will be putted on higher level.

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

Well given his limited appearence his feats are limited. He fought Superman, Superboy and Wonder Woman together, had Teen Titans clearly helpless against him, srugged off few blows from pissed off Superman, its nice all around, but you wont find the kind of feats and statement you are looking for.

We have a statement saying H'el is more powerful than Superman and Superboy combined, but thats about its, him being stronger isnt mentioned anywhere its just inferred given he beat them, but thats about it.

Buckshot for one doesnt buy it at all, and his stance is pretty unbiased there.

Admittedly you will see He'l feats, presented neatly in this thread against a guy i am arguing, in H'el vs Thanos and his versatility well explained, although the guy continues to ignore everything explained to him about Thanos so dont wanna complement his too much :p he also went on to say H'el would beat Odin which is well... dont have words to describe.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/h-el-vs-thanos-1501039/?page=2

That sort of gives you an idea of who H'el is and its pretty much everything H'el has done.

Hope that helps.

1.I have missed so many in these days... ;-)

2.Who made that statement? If narrator - it is a fact. If just a character - then it is useless.

3.So pretty much we can say that H'El is stronger than Superman. I wouldn't count on his telepathy, considering that Thor and BRB have feats in this area. H'El biggest chance to win is mm, but Superman would need to be close in terms of durability to Thor/BRB so we could say that it gives H'El win here. And when it comes to BRB we talk at least about planet level durability.

#12 Posted by DedrabbiT (518 posts) - - Show Bio

In my thread of H'el vs. Black Bolt, pretty much everyone said H'el pretty much stomps him if that gives you any idea. And black bolt is not joke. H'el has some weird ghost mode he can use. Idk how that'd effect the HB.. But I think physically H'el can stand up to them since he was literally whooping superman left and right. And new 52 superman was stated to have like 5 sextillion ton strength? I mean that's craaaazy. Lol. And I think he ripped apart superboy telekinetically on the molecular level almost. Imma side with H'el but barely on this one. Barelyyyy.

#13 Posted by TommyJones1945 (746 posts) - - Show Bio

H'el.

#14 Edited by DarkRaiden (6518 posts) - - Show Bio

Hammer bros win. With ease.

#15 Posted by BigCimmerian (7851 posts) - - Show Bio

Hammer bros win. With ease.

Hammer bros should win, but not with ease lol.

#16 Edited by Mxyzptlk_CV (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

If he proved that he is stronger (not that he just won with Superman) than Kal El, than he is at least as strong each Thor.

At least? New 52 Superman is stronger than either hammer bro.

This....And he'l wins

#17 Edited by alessandro_souzamarques (654 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Thor is waay stronger than Superman dude. Thor reversed the World tree, that is basically equal to a Solar System since the nine worlds are contained on it's roots. He was yet working against the combined might of the World Engine and the World Tree.

Thor and BRB can take him out. And they will eventually.

#18 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles said:

Thor recently was destroying planets as a side effect of his fight with Gorr.

That's damage output, no doubt Thor has Clark beat in that regard. But I'm talking actual, raw physical strength. Pushing, lifting, pulling etc.

Strength is useless if it can't be converted into power. (Olympic squatters can not jump very high, Boxers hit much harder than an Olympic bench presser, etc.)

Striking power is of far greater use in a fight then lifting strength. Thor and BRB have both show far more striking force than anyone H'el has faced thus far.

#19 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by ForeverEvil (4788 posts) - - Show Bio

i wont argue who would win between supes and thor. lets just say theyre equal. h'el beat him down and looked like he wasnt even trying. h'el vs 2 supermen (thor and brb) i think would make h'el try alittle and he'd win

#21 Edited by alessandro_souzamarques (654 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: World Tree "clock" was at a counterclockwise direction and it was altering reality itself by doing that. Basically forcing Ragnarok to happen.

So Yggdrasil was "spinning" counterclockwise and Thor reversed it to a clockwise direction.

#22 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by BigCimmerian (7851 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@alessandro_souzamarques: What is Thor actually doing in that scan? What does "Reversing" it, mean?

What is your opinion about it?

Hmph, I have no opinion on it. It's like Superman pulling Mageddon, it's unquantifiable and useless in a debate.

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#25 Edited by BigCimmerian (7851 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigcimmerian said:

@sheenlantern said:

@alessandro_souzamarques: What is Thor actually doing in that scan? What does "Reversing" it, mean?

What is your opinion about it?

Hmph, I have no opinion on it. It's like Superman pulling Mageddon, it's unquantifiable and useless in a debate.

I've never read the story with Mageddon, but I read it on wiki and always thought that it's impressive considering that wiki states Mageddon is bigger than Earth and Moon combined.

#26 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@bigcimmerian said:

@sheenlantern said:

@alessandro_souzamarques: What is Thor actually doing in that scan? What does "Reversing" it, mean?

What is your opinion about it?

Hmph, I have no opinion on it. It's like Superman pulling Mageddon, it's unquantifiable and useless in a debate.

I've never read the story with Mageddon, but I read it on wiki and always thought that it's impressive considering that wiki states Mageddon is bigger than Earth and Moon combined.

Just the Earth and Moon? That thing was dwarfing the sun.

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#27 Edited by Wolfrazer (6030 posts) - - Show Bio

Wouldn't unquantifable just means said character hasn't reached or doesn't have a limit?

#28 Edited by RetconCrisis (3332 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't H'El manipulate matter? He shrunk Supergirl to allot her to enter the bottled city of Kandor. He can do that to Thor and BRB.

And H'el was not just beating Superman, girl, and boy, but he was doing it with half effort in a curbstomp.

I say H'El wins 6/10.

#29 Edited by alessandro_souzamarques (654 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: As big as it seems it still has just a stellar size. VY Canis Majoris (the largest known star) is way bigger than this thing. Even so VY Canis Majoris has only 1/3 of the size of a Solar System. And yes it's useful on debates since it can prove Thor is far stronger than Superman when someone says otherwise.

#30 Posted by Immortal777 (6874 posts) - - Show Bio

H'el he's way to fast for either on team 2.

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#31 Edited by GhostRavage (8357 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: As big as it seems it still has just a stellar size. VY Canis Majoris (the largest known star) is way bigger than this thing. Even so VY Canis Majoris has only 1/3 of the size of a Solar System. And yes it's useful on debates since it can prove Thor is far stronger than Superman when someone says otherwise.

Sol means Sun. :)

#32 Edited by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@alessandro_souzamarques: As Citizenbane has said before about this feat.

"Thor is moving the control wheel of a machine connected to the World Tree a machine that's doing the actual work of making the World Tree budge. He's only providing an initial impetus to a mechanized force. I can push down the lever of a machine connected to a 5 ton boulder, and in doing so, the machine has lifted the boulder with the force that I've granted it. Am I now a 5 tonner? Same principle. The amount of strength required to push the World Tree isn't quite the same as the amount of strength required to push the gears of an elaborate machine designed to move anyway that is what wheels do. Fighting the weight of a tree and fighting "the intent" of a tree are.......not really the same thing......"

#33 Edited by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Superman did not move Mageddeon as a whole he just broke the chains that he was trapped by.

#34 Posted by patrat18 (8760 posts) - - Show Bio

H'el gives them both a tk spanking.

#35 Posted by Killemall (18252 posts) - - Show Bio

@alessandro_souzamarques: What is Thor actually doing in that scan? What does "Reversing" it, mean?

Well its a tad bit different from what you have been told, there was this cannibal called Price, who believe (because he was being influenced by Seth) that World Tree would create a perfect race of people after Ragnarok, so he creates a device called The World Engine, in a space left abandon after war in 1940. The purpose of the device was to make the World Tree think Ragnarok had already happened and it would go on to do what it was supposed to do next, built a breed of perfect species who were meant to replace Asgardians.

But the plan goes wrong when the world tree shows sentinence, knowing there is something wrong, it begins to correct it, in essence it senses humanity and Asgardians are still alive, and World Tree currently think Ragnarok has happened, so it tries to re-bring Ragnarok. Way to stop the world tree from doing it was to spin the wheel in the opposite direction which is what Thor does.

Now to bring in to the point where i said its a bit different than what you have been told, the tree that serves as a nexus of the 7 planet is world tree, the world engine has only 1 connection to world tree, that it is created to fool the tree, its not the same size or same weight.

Thor doesnt move the world tree, doesnt lift the world tree, all he does is moves the heart of the world engine. I dont see how you can go solar system type strength feat to that.

#36 Posted by BigCimmerian (7851 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

@alessandro_souzamarques: 93% of the Solar System's mass is the Sun...

Also, the title of largest star ever discovered fluctuates between weeks, VY Canis Majoris hasn't been the largest in years.

@sheenlantern: Superman did not move Mageddeon as a whole he just broke the chains that he was trapped by.

I'll take Martian Manhunter's word over yours. It sure as hell looks like Mageddon was moving to me.

Thor doesnt move the world tree, doesnt lift the world tree, all he does is moves the heart of the world engine. I dont see how you can go solar system type strength feat to that.

Thank you very much for the info.

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#38 Posted by eternityx (2487 posts) - - Show Bio

In a fight lifting strength means very little, striking feats are what matter. Thor and BRB beat H'El in the striking feat category although H'El does have a lot of other powers, so this fight is pretty close.

#39 Edited by alessandro_souzamarques (654 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern

:

Care to show that feat of Superman?

And that Superman isn't the same that faced H'el. Is he? New52 Superman feats alone pls.

Yeah, you're right. The Largest known star is WOH G64

Yeah, Sun has the most of the Solar System mass. But even that thing being so much bigger the Sun doesn't mean that it's heavier. Since VY Canis Majoris (apparently sixth largest known star now) is hundreds of thousands times (almost one billion of times) bigger than the Sun, but is only 20 times heavier. As I showed you VY Canis Majoris is way bigger than Mageddon.

But yeah i guess we can't use the World Tree feat because even if it was a Solar System. We can't know how much that Solar System was since mostly of it is located on another dimension with others planets that have different weight then ours. And he was fighting against the force that the World Tree was imposing to him combined with the force of the engine. Since we can't know how much force it was I guess it means it's unquantifiable.

Thor has others feats of strength that should surpass the one from New52 Superman though. Like lifting a score of planets with one arm.

@killemall:

I didn't said he lifted the World Tree. I said he reversed it.

Thor wasn't just fighting against the engine. It wasn't the engine that did the work. In fact the engine was against him. Thor had to fight both World Tree and the engine. And Yes he didn't lifted the World Tree. But he reversed it's will. Thor was going against the force imposed by the tree.

" In turning the wheel you would be fighting against the combined intent of both Tree and engine."

" The wheel is turning; spun by the invisible will of Engine and Tree."

" I force it back. And I do not care that I am fighting Yggdrasil or the Engine. I force it back... to an end."

@sharkbearagator :

He was fighting against both World Tree and engine. Thor and Price themselves said that. The engine wasn't helping him.

#40 Posted by thorthorthor (21 posts) - - Show Bio

Team will get demolished. Way too slow to hit He'l. Even if a hit land, He'l will just shrug it off.

Spite thread

#41 Edited by Killemall (18252 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

I didn't said he lifted the World Tree. I said he reversed it.

Thor wasn't just fighting against the engine. It wasn't the engine that did the work. In fact the engine was against him. Thor had to fight both World Tree and the engine. And Yes he didn't lifted the World Tree. But he reversed it's will. Thor was going against the force imposed by the tree.

" In turning the wheel you would be fighting against the combined intent of both Tree and engine."

" The wheel is turning; spun by the invisible will of Engine and Tree."

" I force it back. And I do not care that I am fighting Yggdrasil or the Engine. I force it back... to an end."

Not sure i understand, he was fighting against the will of the Tree, and the Enging designed to make it think Ragnarok had occured, how exactly does any of that translates to a solar system wide feat?

He doesnt do anything apart from turn the wheel of the heart of World Engine, a World Engine that was designed to fool the World Tree.

Thats drastically different from either moving the tree, lifting a tree, or well doing anything against the World Tree for that to be supposedly a solar system level feat.

That also not going into how World Tree is more of a nexus, connecting worlds, not even in the same dimension.

#42 Posted by SheenLantern (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

@alessandro_souzamarques:

Care to show that feat of Superman?

I don't have the scans.

And that Superman isn't the same that faced H'el. Is he? New52 Superman feats alone pls.

Uh, when did I try and use is as a feat for Superman? Pay attention to what I'm saying, please.

Yeah, you're right. The Largest known star is WOH G64

It isn't, actually.

Yeah, Sun has the most of the Solar System mass. But even that thing being so much bigger the Sun doesn't mean that it's heavier. Since VY Canis Majoris (apparently sixth largest known star now) is hundreds of thousands times (almost one billion of times) bigger than the Sun, but is only 20 times heavier. As I showed you VY Canis Majoris is way bigger than Mageddon.

Why are you talking about big stars anyway? How are they relevant?

Thor has others feats of strength that should surpass the one from New52 Superman though. Like lifting a score of planets with one arm.

Uh, as I recall, he withstood the weight of a score of planets. That's a durability feat, not a strength feat.

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#43 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio


Thor has others feats of strength that should surpass the one from New52 Superman though. Like lifting a score of planets with one arm.

Uh, as I recall, he withstood the weight of a score of planets. That's a durability feat, not a strength feat.

@killemall care to comment? After looking at the scan it's not clear if Thor is using Mjolnir to break free or just brute strength.

#44 Edited by Experio (14100 posts) - - Show Bio

The Hammer brothers win

#45 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

What the "H'el" are H'el's feats?

#46 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (1525 posts) - - Show Bio
#47 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9437 posts) - - Show Bio

H'El should take this

What the "H'el" are H'el's feats?

Strong enough to almost OHKO Superman several times; Stronger than Superman and Superboy combined (Scan occurs right after H'El forcibly ejects them from the fortress of solitude); Strong enough to tank a speed blitz from Kara with budging an inch (also made her hands hurt)

TK is strong enough to hold Wonder Woman, Superman and Superboy; Some TK; Uses TK to hold Superboy and then begins breaking him down on a molecular level; Tra[s the teen titans in a TK whirlwind; Disassembles battle armour using TK and then teleports Flash to the watch tower.

Speed blitz Wonder Woman; Teleports himself and Kara from earth to the sun; teleports back to earth from the sun; more tk and teleportation; teleports kara to clarks apartment and telepathically implants the English language in her head

Makes himself invisible to all but Superboy; Shrinks Kara down so that she can enter Kandor; Astral Projection

#48 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

H'El should take this

@venomoushatred1001 said:

What the "H'el" are H'el's feats?

Strong enough to almost OHKO Superman several times; Stronger than Superman and Superboy combined (Scan occurs right after H'El forcibly ejects them from the fortress of solitude); Strong enough to tank a speed blitz from Kara with budging an inch (also made her hands hurt)

TK is strong enough to hold Wonder Woman, Superman and Superboy; Some TK; Uses TK to hold Superboy and then begins breaking him down on a molecular level; Tra[s the teen titans in a TK whirlwind; Disassembles battle armour using TK and then teleports Flash to the watch tower.

Speed blitz Wonder Woman; Teleports himself and Kara from earth to the sun; teleports back to earth from the sun; more tk and teleportation; teleports kara to clarks apartment and telepathically implants the English language in her head

Makes himself invisible to all but Superboy; Shrinks Kara down so that she can enter Kandor; Astral Projection

Very impressive, thanks.

#49 Edited by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

H'El should take this

@venomoushatred1001 said:

What the "H'el" are H'el's feats?

Strong enough to almost OHKO Superman several times; Stronger than Superman and Superboy combined (Scan occurs right after H'El forcibly ejects them from the fortress of solitude); Strong enough to tank a speed blitz from Kara with budging an inch (also made her hands hurt)

TK is strong enough to hold Wonder Woman, Superman and Superboy; Some TK; Uses TK to hold Superboy and then begins breaking him down on a molecular level; Tra[s the teen titans in a TK whirlwind; Disassembles battle armour using TK and then teleports Flash to the watch tower.

Speed blitz Wonder Woman; Teleports himself and Kara from earth to the sun; teleports back to earth from the sun; more tk and teleportation; teleports kara to clarks apartment and telepathically implants the English language in her head

Makes himself invisible to all but Superboy; Shrinks Kara down so that she can enter Kandor; Astral Projection

....damn...

#50 Edited by alessandro_souzamarques (654 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: I just specified World Tree is equal to A solar System. Never said it was a Solar System + strength feat.

World Engine just fooled the tree into thinking the Ragnarok happened. It WASN'T helping Thor.