#1 Edited by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

Guts

VS

Gorgon

Round 1

  • Gorgon has Grasscutter
  • Guts has standard gear minus the beserker armor
  • Gorgon cannot use his stare
  • Random encounter
  • Win by KO/death/Incapacitation

Round 2

  • Same as round 1 except guts has the beserker armor

Location

  • They begin 20 feat apart
  • Fight takes place here:

Who wins and why?

#2 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Gorgon/

#3 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5432 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Gorgon/

#4 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: @saiyan_earthling:Should I give guts the berserker armor?

#5 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant: @saiyan_earthling:Should I give guts the berserker armor?

Yes.

#6 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: So who wins with the beserker armor?

#7 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant: So who wins with the beserker armor?

Guts, but it would be closer.

#8 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#9 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Does Guts at least have awareness that Gorgon has TP?

#10 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Yea I will let him have awareness.

#11 Edited by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Round 1:

I don't think it matters if Guts knows or not actually, and I'll explain with the Phobos fight.

If you give him awareness then I give it to Guts 6/10 or 7/10 simply because Gorgon is similar to Zodd but Zodd does not have TP. Zodd is stronger and probably even faster than Gorgon is, more durable. I think Guts and Gorgon may be close in speed. The Grasscutter, although a great sword, does not match with the mass of the Dragonslayer. Gorgon would have to parry blows, but he would have to be much much faster than Guts to do so. Gorgon's TP won't matter because he's not much faster than Guts where he can easily dodge Guts, and just because he knows Gut's sword strike is coming, when he blocks or attempts to parry it, it will be overwhelming possibly not working at all or the Grasscutter will most likely fly out of his hands.

Example is Griffith vs Guys, Griffith knew, he totally knew which strike Guts was going to swing, but at this point Guts had reach a level of swordsmanship much higher than Griffith that his heavy sword strike was too fast for Griffith to execute a successful parry.

Above you must also note Gut's control of his sword, capable of stopping it midswing so he wouldn't cut Griffith in half. A year passed since this point here and Guts got dozens of times better, being capable of swinging his sword faster than the speed of sound, beating an opponent that had whips (which at the last second travel as the speed of sound) by swinging his sword after they were whipped, he created a dust cloud that stopped them from reaching him. only later his swordsmanship only gets better in his fight with Zodd, Rickurt comments he can't even see the swings anymore.

I also want to use Gorgon's fight with Phobos as an example, they traded sword blows, and the Grasscutter along with the Godkiller both broke. The Dragonslayer may weigh 60 times that of a katana and therefore Gorgon will be contending with blows about 60 times more than Phobos was throwing.

Gorgon's TP will not matter because Gut's speed is as fast or possibly faster than Gorgon's due to Guts creating a dust cloud that had to travel much faster to stop the whips in motion. Gorgon again will be receiving blows from a Dragonsalyer traveling at incredible speeds and weighs about 300+lbs, some speculate it may even weigh 500lbs, the Grasscutter will either break again or fly out of Gorgon's hands. It is because of what I saw with Gorgon fighting against phobos that makes me give Guts the win.

Throw in the Berserker armor and Gut's only becomes faster and more agile in addition to have complete full protection around his whole body. Only blunt force can pretty much kill him, he beats Gorgon 8 or 9 out of 10 with it.

#12 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Well what do you think? I never got a response for the post I made for you.

#13 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@jashro44: Well what do you think? I never got a response for the post I made for you.

Sorry I some how missed it. I agree with you for the most part all though how fast is Griffith? Is he as fast as Gorgon? Gorgon has been able to cut bullets out of the air (IIRC after it was fired all though I would have to check again) so he can swing his sword pretty fast as well. The telepathy allows him to react faster than guts. And there is also the healing factor which allows him to take some hits from guts unless its decapitation. I think Gorgon might be able to keep up with guts.

#14 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Griffith is fast but he isn't super humanly fast, just peak human. But I wasn't using that example to showcase Gut's speed either because Guts had a number of upgrades in strength and speed since this fight. The Guts right now is probably 3 or 4 times better than that Guts in the scan in every kind of way. I was using that scan to show that even if you know what Gut's is going to do you would have to have countless hours of experience fighting someone of his speed, power and the mass of his sword to effectively counter and fight against him. Guts has the swordsmanship advantage from what I can see, he has fought people with swords as large as he, spears, rapiers, sword like Katana's and on top of that we have seen hi adjust on the fly to unconventional weapons like razor sharp frisbees, razor sharp whips and finally demons that grow the size of multiple stories. Gorgon, from what we have seen, has never faced a foe like Guts with his extreme speed, power and he hasn't fought against a sword that is as huge as Guts but gets swung faster than the eye can see.

I think a lot of Gorgon's speed might also, like you said yourself, rely on his precognition. I think Guts and him are probably equal in the speed department. He is probably more agile but Guts has shown that he's not just about fighting at a mid range but he can do small compact swings, use these motions to side swing his sword like a hammer and is quite acrobatic himself doing flips to get out of tough scenarios. But like I said earlier, Guts has dealt with Zodd and bested his human form. Zodd is actually faster than Guts throwing at least 1.5 or 2 swings per one of Gut's swings, and arguably stronger since he exist fully in the other world where Guts is only partial. Guts managed to survive and best someone with better stats than him due to having a superior weapon (Zodd's cracked), his cunning (he kicked a sword up at Zodd who was using two swords on guts) and his skill (Gut's doesn't have as much stamina as Zodd, he was able to defend and land more hits on Zodd and throwing less sword strikes) . I don't see anything Gorgon has that puts him above Zodd in anyway. He has precog, Zodd doesn't, but Zodd is insanely fast (Zodd also blocked a blow from Guts to Griffith, and he was nowhere in site, the hill of swords from the trees are at least 50 or more feet away, in the scans below).

I don't think Gorgon's Pre-cog matters because Guts is in my opinion faster than Gorgon physically which evens out with Gorgon's pre-cog. Plus Gut's sword has a much longer range advantage so it will be hard for Gorgon to get in even if he knows what Guts will do. If he blocks any of Gut's sword strikes the grasscutter will break or fly out of his hand. Sure we see Gorgon deflect and cut bullets, but we don't know if it's due to his pre-cog or if he's actually faster than a bullet. But we know that Guts is faster than a whip, where the whip's final speed is actually faster than a bullet, and he would have to swing his sword much faster than that to create a dust cloud as large as he did to disrupt it. He swings his sword so fast that the human eye can't see what's going on with it, and it's huge big and fat (yes, that's what she said I set you up for that one and if you didn't get it, shame on you). Gut's sword is superior than the Grasscutter which is shown to not be unbreakable in the phobos fight. Gorgon hasn't been shown to fight Berserkers with large swords like Guts but Guts has fought Katana like swords plenty of times.

I'm being generous here, but Guts will strike at a force about 60 times more than Phobos because the DS weighs much more than the Katana does and Guts is much faster than Phobos is.

Intelligence
2
Strength
2
Speed
2
Durability
2
Energy Projection
3
Fighting Skills
3

There the Grasscutter breaks, what happens when it breaks like Zodd's sword?

#15 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16614 posts) - - Show Bio

Guts.. Dragon Slayer for the win.

#16 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Sorry for the late reply. I think I can agree with your points. Nice post!

#17 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Hey no problem man. How did school go?

#18 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: It went pretty good. All though I still have to deal with exams this week so its not over yet. I just figured the weekend will probably be the only time to clear out my inbox.

#19 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D: It went pretty good. All though I still have to deal with exams this week so its not over yet. I just figured the weekend will probably be the only time to clear out my inbox.

Well good luck, lol. Maybe for every time you visit comic vine you have to punish yourself and study more lol.

#20 Posted by Vance Astro (91191 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D..Kudos on the Guts scans.
Moderator
#21 Posted by jashro44 (20530 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: lol yea, and thanks.

#22 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#23 Edited by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: my post with the Zodd fight is here if you can share it on the wolverine thread.

#24 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Guts could break the Godkiller honestly. Gorgon has used that sword to cut through multiple people and used it to down trees. In my opinion, it only broke because it was facing another magical sword that was on par with it, which was the Grasscutter.

#25 Posted by SlimJ87D (9600 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: possibly, but gut sword is also magical in nature being that it can harm your soul and has harmed a God's Astral projection and harmed a very high level demons gas for.

But that being said I imagine gorgon won't even be able to hold onto his sword if he receives a 300+lb sword strike moving at hypersonic speeds. It could cause his Kahana to flight out of his hands.

Gorgon would also have to get past a 8 ft radius since the dragonslayer gives Guts a huge range advantage compared to a 3 ft Katana.

#26 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

I'm not well-versed enough on Guts to actually debate on the subject, I was just thinking that the sword wouldn't break on impact. I though the whole fight with Phobos was kind of silly anyways. Gorgon was able to decimate Wolverine and Elektra, even when they had psi-blockers on, and he goes and has trouble with a little kid. The swords breaking were weird too, because one would expect a sword made to fight and kill gods to be a little more durable lol. In Wolverine's solo series, you see Gorgon using it to cut down whole trees in one swing and cutting through multiple people in one swing.

#27 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16614 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

In Wolverine's solo series, you see Gorgon using it to cut down whole trees in one swing and cutting through multiple people in one swing..

Didn't golden age guts cut through fully armored people in one swing? Current Gutts is massively more strong..

#28 Posted by laidblack (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Guts could break the Godkiller honestly. Gorgon has used that sword to cut through multiple people and used it to down trees. In my opinion, it only broke because it was facing another magical sword that was on par with it, which was the Grasscutter.

Cut down trees? Guts at his most weakest level could cut though reinforced steel.

#29 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

@laidblack: @princearagorn1:

I'm not arguing that Gorgon is winning (I have no knowledge of what Guts can do). I was merely pointing out that his Godkiller sword breaking seems like an inconsistency to what it has accomplished before. If it was an ordinary katana it wouldn't be able to cut through multiple people or cut through a tree. SlimJ87D was citing how easily Phobos broke the sword as a testament to how weak it is, when other feats contradict this one showing. I believe the sword broke because it was clashing with another magical sword of equal power. The sword has also been used to kill gods (like Mikaboshi) and gods in Marvel are pretty durable.

#30 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16614 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by reikai (4176 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Gutts has been thrown through trees, without armor and survived. By Wyald, in his Apostle Form. Also, Gutts doesn't just cut down trees and people, he obliterates them and giant monsters with his sword swings. In one swing, Gutts can completely tear through 3-5 people in full plate armor.

The TP is almost useless since Gutts doesn't think much when he fights and relies on his honed instincts. It's actually shown many times that Gutts pushes away all thought and focuses solely on killing his opponent.

This is a guy who spent more than two years fighting evil spirits, apparitions, undead monstrosities, demons, monsters and all manner of dark creatures nearly every single day, mostly at night, forcing him to travel and rest by day as much as he could. And still having to be alert since Incubus and other ethereal creatures can use darker shadows to manifest and try to kill him.

And he managed all that without Puck's healing elf dust or battle support from the team he picks up, like with Serpico, Isidro and Schierke.

Also, I should point out that really good katanas can cut through multiple people. Historically speaking, they tested a katanas strength by seeing how many bodies it could cut through in one swing. Depending on the strength of the blade, the angle of the cut and abilities of the user, a Katana could cut through 2-4 people. Even decapitating three people in one sweep isn't unheard of if they're in close proximity.

Katanas are among the most finely crafted and strongest cutting weapons ever made. A European Longsword doesn't even stand a chance. Katanas are just the Epic Boss of swords, right with its variants in the form of the no-dachi, the ones with longer, stronger hilts that were designed specifically to kill a rider on horseback and capable of cutting even the horses head off. It's much easier to strike at the horse than it is to strike at the rider.

But that's a whole other debate.

#32 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

I know what a katana is capable of. I was merely pointing to feats that contradict that single showing of it breaking versus a kid. The swords were both crafted by the same person and magical. I assumed that is what caused it to break.

Those same swords have been used to gut gods and what not, so the reason for them breaking should not be from a child's strength. The grasscutter was capable of piercing straight through Ares, like he was a regular person, and Ares has tremendous durability.

#33 Posted by TheMagicStik (1570 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Yeah Guts could chop through multiple fully armored people at once before he even got Dragonslayer. Guts could also chop through and kill Apostles who couldn't even be harmed by anybody else and this is still before he got Dragonslayer. Once he got Dragon Slayer he could chop Apostles who were pretty much immune to conventional weapons clean through.

#34 Edited by reikai (4176 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Something I have found in nearly all fiction is that those figures with insane durability, tend to be far more vulnerable to piercing/cutting weapons than anything else. Even Thor in Marvel has been killed by a magic spear stabbing through him. He-Man's been cut with blades, the Hulk is constantly getting cut up, and the list just goes on.

It's a continuing theme in fiction, especially Western comics. It would say the swords breaking is probably due to the fact they were both magical and quite possibly were polar opposites of each other. Striking against the other just diminished the strength of both weapons until they lost their power and ultimately snapped.

But then, given the weapon was magic from the get-go, can't attribute Gorgon's cutting ability to his own skill as opposed to the weapons special properties. The Dragon Slayer is special, but it didn't start that way. Gutts has shown himself capable of tearing through multiple armored opponents long before he got the Dragon Slayer. Gutts has always used great swords that were three times stronger and thicker than normal, and he trained with them constantly. Even adding weight by tying wood logs around the hilt and swinging one-handed with each arm.

The Dragon Slayer acquired special properties by being used to cut through and kill so many supernatural beings while constantly being in the Interstice (the layer where the Living and Astral planes overlap) for so long that it became a Fetish (a magical artifact). Didn't hurt that it was made using ore from a cave once used as a home by Elves. So the Dragon Slayer started off stronger than normal, but it was Gutts' continuous use of it that transformed it into what it is today.

As it stands, it's the only weapon capable of killing an astral being and possibly even the abstract form of the Godhand members themselves.

#35 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

Ares has never shown a weakness to piercing weapons at all, if my memory serves me right. But I understand the point you are trying to make. I was never arguing that Gorgon could beat Guts (everyone thinks I am, but that is not the case). I just don't think the particular instance shown of the blades breaking is legitimate.

As for Gorgon's cutting skill, he has superhuman stats. He has skewered Wolverine against a wall so hard that it took several men to pull the sword out. He did this with a regular katana too and not the Godkiller, since with that, he was able to kill Wolverine. He's definitely not stronger than Guts from what I've seen posted above by you and others, but that is irrelevant, given that I was never arguing for Gorgon to begin with.

#36 Posted by reikai (4176 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: Sticking Logan to a wall reminds me of what happened to Dorian in the "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" movie. Where he gets run through with his cane sword, but can't pull it out from where it's embedded in the wall so he couldn't get away.

No one's saying Gorgon isn't a beast. He is. But Gutts isn't just a beast, he's THE Beast. I think that's all anyone is trying to say.

#37 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

You think Guts vs Akira Kongou (from Kongou Banchou manga) would be a good match up?

#38 Edited by reikai (4176 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Thanofleeze (2577 posts) - - Show Bio

Guts wins.

#40 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (10874 posts) - - Show Bio

Ehh...I'll back Guts up, but I'm not 100 he can take this.