Guts (Berserk) vs Agent Venom

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life_without_progress

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In character

winner by KO, incapacitation or death

random encounter

standard gear and abilities

fight takes place at an unpopulated city setting at night

who'd win? For what reasons

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RealityWarper

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Guts in a stomp.

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life_without_progress

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AtheistKnowledge

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Guts, his speed and weapon seals the deal. Lizard get's split in half.

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life_without_progress

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saiyan_earthling

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Guts s&%ts on the Lizard.

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life_without_progress

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darkseid1006

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Guts

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SpartanR014

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Guts completely wrecks Lizards $#/&!

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GraniteSoldier

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#10  Edited By GraniteSoldier

What makes Guts so dangerous? What does he have besides a big sword and skill with it?

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PrinceAragorn1

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#11  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@granitesoldier: presuming this is without berserker armor; (though it's standard gear since the grunbeld fight)

the fact that he has has taken blows launching him at supersonic speeds, matched strength with monsters at similar level; cut through multiple heavy armored knights / horse armour with single handed swings, shattered stone about as large as himself with swings, caught roshinu (who was causing large scale visible sonic booms) when she was literally inches from his face, with his teeth. And so on.

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slimj87d

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@granitesoldier: he swings a 300 lb sword at Mach speeds.

In a pitch black night he was able to deflect and Dodge an attacker moving at Mach speeds.

Imagine someone swinging a baseball bat, that strike can be like 8 tons of force for a fraction of a second. Now times that by (300 / how much a baseball bat weighs).

That would mean when you're hit by the sword, he exerts a force upto around 150 to 200 tons.

Okay, that sounds ridiculous, but note that a Canon ball can exert forces of upto XXX tons. Well Guts has destroyed monsters and things that were said to be canon ball proof.

So there you have it. Guts can swing his sword and react to things faster than a handgun bullet and being hit by his sword exerts forces greater than canon balls.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@slimj87d: tbh posting math and calcs just makes the character look overestimated. Guts has superb showings, just mentioning them is generally enough.

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GraniteSoldier

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He sounds impressive but doesn't but I'm not seeing him taking Venom who's been cut and impaled and etc and kept coming (and healed right through it) and been fast enough to react to Spider-Man, durable enough to take repeated hits from certified 100+ tonners. Not to mention Thompson's standard gear usually includes an assault rifle or two which fires much faster rounds and at a higher rate if fire than pistols. I also don't see Guts having an answer to the webs and symbiote tendrils, or expected Flash to be able to turn his body into various weapons.

Although to be fair it sounds like a good fight and I'll grant that while Flash has an amateur boxing background and has good skill showings against Kraven and Valkyrie Guts is likely more skilled and isn't outclassed in speed to where he can't keep up. Flash is definitely taking damage here.

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PrinceAragorn1

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#15  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@granitesoldier: even spiderman doesn't fight at speeds causing visible sonic booms and reacting to attacks at this speed from inches near him, in the dark.

I don't see why guts doesn't cut him to pieces really. How good is his healing factor?

As for the rifle.. aim dodging is easy when your combat speed is much higher than the enemy.

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reikai

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#16  Edited By reikai
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Also to note, the Dragonslayer gained esoteric properties from existing with Gutts within the Interstice (the overlapping plane between the Material and Spiritual worlds), and from having been used to cut through hundreds of Apostles and Psuedo-Apostles, along with hundreds to thousands of other supernatural creatures, specters, poltergeists, and phantasmal creatures, plus zombies.

The Dragonslayer can harm the Godhand; entities that manipulate causality, space, dimensions, Fate and Human Will. It also can rend souls as it did against the Kushan Emperor, Ganishka, who appeared in his Astral Form.

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GraniteSoldier

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@princearagorn1: By all accounts Spider-Man should cause sonic booms. He's moved fast enough to dodge 4000fps sniper rounds (roughly mach 4) after they've been fired. They level of reflex should cause sonic booms. Luther Strode has caused 'sonic booms' with his movements, but by all accounts is slower by feats.

It's artistic styling, that's all.

Thompson himself has dodged tank rounds (modern ones average 4500 - 5000 fps) at point blank and for the record the ensuing sonic boom didn't even register to him.

His healing factor is such that he's regenerated from being run over by a tank, been nearly disembodied from Toxin and healed in a panel, been completely impaled and healed, reattached limbs, and even regrown his head from the lower jaw up. His healing is very good.

As for the firearms, it's hard to dodge when you're fighting someone who can accurately shoot them with his symbiote tendrils in close range while he fights you with two arm swords. Guts has a lot of versatility coming at him in one guy.

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reikai

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@granitesoldier: And he's dealt with greater versatility from bigger adversaries and ones with healing and regeneration. The Priest in the Conviction arc created full-body armor and had plated wings as flexible as tendrils that he hammered Gutts with repeatedly. And this was long before the Berserker Armor. Gutts has literally fought small armies of monsters by himself.

With the Berserker Armor, he's damned near unstoppable. The only downside if he loses control is that the armor will tear his body apart. It removes all of the brains limits on the body, allowing Gutts to use 100% of his bodies physical capabilities. The problem with that is that the brain places limits on the body to keep us from hurting ourselves. Like tearing muscles and tendons, bursting blood vessels and more.

Essentially Gutts' speed, strength and reflexes are multiplied, but in turn his body is literally tearing itself apart. The harder he fights, the more damage it causes to himself. Yet also, when bones are broken, the armor pierce Gutts' flesh and knits him back together, enabling to keep on fighting. The only thing that'd stop Gutts like this is the massive blood loss. And even then, Gutts is an absurdly tough dude. This is a guy who, without armor, has been smashed through multiple trees.

Gutts has broken every bone in his body multiple times and has kept on going. He's suffered more injuries during the Golden Age as part of the Band of the Hawk than Griffith did after their encounter with Zodd, and Gutts was out of bed and training again before Griffith.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@granitesoldier:

"By all accounts Spider-Man should cause sonic booms. He's moved fast enough to dodge 4000fps sniper rounds (roughly mach 4) after they've been fired. They level of reflex should cause sonic booms. Luther Strode has caused 'sonic booms' with his movements, but by all accounts is slower by feats.It's artistic styling, that's all.Thompson himself has dodged tank rounds (modern ones average 4500 - 5000 fps) at point blank and for the record the ensuing sonic boom didn't even register to him."

You're missing the difference between the two situations here. None of the mentioned situations require them to actually move at mach speeds. Guts tried blocking grunbeld's warhammer, and was sent rolling away at supersonic speed along with his sword. Or roshinu, who was inches from guts at greatly supersonic speeds, in the dark, he managed to grab her attack with his teeth. That's not a level of speed I'm seeing spiderman/venom at. Not far from it, but certainly not that fast.

"His healing factor is such that he's regenerated from being run over by a tank, been nearly disembodied from Toxin and healed in a panel, been completely impaled and healed, reattached limbs, and even regrown his head from the lower jaw up. His healing is very good."

This will be the major issue. Iirc, his cursed sword can damage astral bodies, reikai/slimj78d may cover this better. I'm using a phone.

"As for the firearms, it's hard to dodge when you're fighting someone who can accurately shoot them with his symbiote tendrils in close range while he fights you with two arm swords. Guts has a lot of versatility coming at him in one guy."

Considering he has shown to keep up with half a dozen high speed attacks (kind of like whips, but unpredictable and ordinarily too fast to see), aim dodging the attacks shouldn't be an issue.

Plus, he's cunning enough to separate him from the weapons.

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Eisenfauste

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@princearagorn1: Is there an anime T.V. show with him? I remember seeing some fight with a guy and a big sword and armour fighting some dude who tossed spears out of golden portals.

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Eisenfauste

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@granitesoldier: Do you have a scan of Agent Venom dodging a tank round up close? That would be sweet to see.

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DarthAznable

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I'll say Venom as long as Guts doesn't have Beserker Armor.

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Frisky4

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Agent Venom.

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PrinceAragorn1

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#24  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@eisenfauste:

There was a terribly made anime adaptation, and a better animated movie trilogy set covering the first few chapters. Neither anywhere near the manga (both quality wise abd story progression wise. I know you might have heard the manga better than animated claim for many series, but this one is really true. The author works months and months on every chapter, they literally cannot match his art and all)

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darkseid1006

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#25  Edited By darkseid1006

@princearagorn1: Is there an anime T.V. show with him? I remember seeing some fight with a guy and a big sword and armour fighting some dude who tossed spears out of golden portals.

Loading Video...

I think you mean Fate/zero Gilgamesh vs Berserker...

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DarthAznable

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@darkseid1006: Why is Hercules all smokey and has armor on? Isn't he supposed to be gigantic too?

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deactivated-1351355

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@princearagorn1: Is Berserk really that good? I watched the OVA called Berserk: The Golden Age Arc and was awesome.

I'm thinking about start to read the manga, but I have my doubts too.

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darkseid1006

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@darkseid1006: Why is Hercules all smokey and has armor on? Isn't he supposed to be gigantic too?

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The guy above is who your talking about. He's Hercules Berserker from Fate/ stay night.
This is Lancelot from Fate/ zero...

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But yeah i suppose he could have been referencing either fight. Gil fought both of them and reluctantly beat Herc but not Lance

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DarthAznable

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@darkseid1006: Ahh so Beserker is really just a title then? Never really got into the show. Just played the fighting game.

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darkseid1006

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@darthaznable: Yeah.
There are a serise of different classes (main ones at least)

  • Saber
  • Archer
  • Lancer
  • Caster
  • Berserker
  • Assassin
  • Rider


All of which are just titles the real being is a legendary being in most cases which is why there have been servants to exist after the death of the previous class member.

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GraniteSoldier

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#31  Edited By GraniteSoldier
Tank shell.  It's worth noting this is in Venom #1 and he hadn't even bonded to the suit yet.  He was only given the suit prior to each mission deployment, then it was removed afterward.  The suit is also drugged.  So his strength and speed are far lower than after he bonds to the suit and stops drugging it later on.
Tank shell. It's worth noting this is in Venom #1 and he hadn't even bonded to the suit yet. He was only given the suit prior to each mission deployment, then it was removed afterward. The suit is also drugged. So his strength and speed are far lower than after he bonds to the suit and stops drugging it later on.
Here's the gunshot scan for sh*ts and gigs.  It's worth noting that he allowed this to happen, as stated in the captions, to 'put the fear of God' into the thugs before squeezing them for info on Lord Ogre's whereabouts.  Still, he regenerates everything above his mandible.
Here's the gunshot scan for sh*ts and gigs. It's worth noting that he allowed this to happen, as stated in the captions, to 'put the fear of God' into the thugs before squeezing them for info on Lord Ogre's whereabouts. Still, he regenerates everything above his mandible.

@eisenfauste:

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NothingClever

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I would really like to see how Venom has been upgraded after returning to his home planet.

I think Guts is just too much for him. #cleftintwain

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GraniteSoldier

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@princearagorn1: If you look at my above scan, Venom would have to dodge at mach speeds in order to dodge the shell. At that range, it'd be impossible not to. Also what you're talking about for Guts sounds like nothing more than straight line travel speed. Venom blitzed Carnage and cut his head off, someone who has at times shown to be far faster than Spider-Man, Scarlet Spider, and Venom. But he still managed to pull it off. Maybe Guts is faster, but the point of my first post is that they seem to be at least at comparable speeds on average. If that didn't come across well then that is my fault and I apologize.

As for firearms, does Guts even know what a gun is? If he doesn't, it could be over very quick, he wouldn't even recognize the threat. Hard to aim dodge guns while getting attacked in melee with sword-arms and mace fists though. Dodging the firearm isn't the issue, it's doing it point blank while Thompson is swinging at him that is.

And because a weapons damages demons or incorporeals doesn't auto-equate to doing more damage to an alien-human bonded creature. There are plenty of items in various lores designed for certain purposes and are otherwise mundane. For example, Drax can bypass Thanos' exemplary durability, and his ripped out his heart. However that doesn't mean he could repeat it against someone like Thor, or could do so when the GotG fought Prodigy. He was bred for being the anti-Thanos. In the Forgotten Realms there are demonbane weapons that are otherwise mundane magical items (as mundane as magical weapons can be anyway) that relieve tremendous power boosts when fighting demons and other extra-planar creatures. Then used against people, they are simply mundane magical blades. Is there anything to suggest otherwise with Guts' blade? Just because he fights demons (so has Thompson for the record, and bested Damian Hellstrom) doesn't mean his blade is going to bypass Venom's healing.

This appears to be skill (which I'd say Guts has a slight edge in) vs versatility, durability, and healing. Strength is a non-point since both tend to not swing with fists.

@reikai: I never said he wasn't impressive. If my first post seemed dismissive that wasn't my intention, I was out and didn't have time for a stellar post. However he doesn't have the endurance for the prolonged fight this is sure to be (like you said, the longer it goes the more it's going to tax him). Venom's healing has never been taxed to the limit against foes like the U-Foes, Carnage, Toxin, Red Hulk, Damian Hellstrom, Vengeance...you get the idea. He's taken building level explosions and above, then proceeded to fight in the ensuing flames and two-shot Jack O'Lantern (comparable to Green and Hobgoblin physically, and he was wearing his drugged suit).

He's fought waves of demons himself as well, the title of demon doesn't mean much as most are fodder on the average.

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SinnTek1

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RealityWarper

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#35  Edited By RealityWarper
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slimj87d

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@princearagorn1: but everything I posted is backed up with feat in hand.

He has destroyed things that have been said to deflect canon balls, etc.

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reikai

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@granitesoldier: Well I had a big response I was typing out, then my machine suddenly crashed and I lost everything. And I don't feel like writing everything back out from memory, so I'll just start with Gutts fight with Wyald which occurs before the Eclipse.

Loading Video...

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GraniteSoldier

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@nothingclever: We haven't seen Venom do anything since his upgrade. With Bendis at the helm we haven't seen the GotG as a whole do much I 25 issues. So all we have to go on are his pre-upgrade feats.

And as for the thread I've still not seen anything that solidifies a Guts win, let alone a stomp as some are saying.

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NothingClever

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@granitesoldier: Guts just seems so overwhelming (attack speed, strength, magic sword) and ridiculously durable. I really can't see Venom piercing his armor in any meaningful way due to it "healing" Guts who has to worry about blood loss, sure, but he basically puts on a one man bloodkake show every battle. He is magically full of several dozen people worth of blood. Nevermind that, IIRC, he has a cannonically acknowledged ability to defy causality (which could potentially help him in this battle as it seems to basically help him defy reality, an example of which are his super human physicals). Just for fun, because he is feat-less with it, his standard equipment includes a Behelit, which could activate when he is near death and allow him to become a vastly more powerful hell-monster version of himself.

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Prime_Raptor

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Agent Venom destroys Guts, but this is will be a hard fight.

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Simon_the_digger

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Agent Venom destroys Guts, but this is will be a hard fight.

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GraniteSoldier

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@nothingclever: Causality really doesn't effect much here, although it'd be useful against a probability manipulator like Black Cat or Domino I'd imagine.

Seeming 'overwhelming' is a personal opinion, and no feat that's been shown has been overwhelming of yet.

Venom shredded tank armor and cut Human Fly's 'impenetrable' wings, so I don't see why he couldn't pierce the armor and take Guts out slowly. He also seems to have no armor at the neck, and Venom cut the head off Carnage who is fast than both of them, so it's perfectly plausible. Venom's healing has never been taxed to its limit, Guts can be bled out. Venom has the endurance edge.

Nothing shown yet suggests Guts is faster, at best they are on a same tier of speed (at least in combat and reactions), which I agree with.

Venom is also still far more versatile and has way more options. I could take the easy way and talk about Web incap or tendril smother, but that'd be too easy.

His sword is magic, but again that doesn't mean much unless we can demonstrate that magic having some specific effect that counters Venom's abilities. Otherwise it's really sharp, and perhaps unbreakable (I'm not sure on the specific lore of magic weapons in the Berserk world). I've posted scans of Venom having his head blown off above and regenerating in a few moments without missing a beat, so unless it can prevent that...

It's sure to be a brutal and bloody battle, and a very entertaining one. But I see Venom having all the necessary edges to take it in a long fight.

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NothingClever

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@granitesoldier: OK, first point: something is seriously wrong on the Vine because I keep getting civil responses from folks. Lol.

You make solid points about Venom's speed level. I initially did think Guts had a speed advantage but yeah, dodging a tank shell, mach speed, approximately equal speed, sounds good to me. Debating speed sucks and tends to get out of hand awfully fast.

Full disclosure, I read Berserk years ago, so I'm not fresh on many details. Also: I'm lazy.

The sword being magic is somewhat relevant. The sword, much like Guts, seems to defy reality/causality (partially due to the power of it's wielder and partially, IIRC, because it has absorbed magical qualities from simply being used to slay Apostles) . The sword has consistently proven capable of killing extremely powerful beings with a general immunity to damage from non-enchanted weapons or magick. The Apostles all seem to require fairly extreme damage such as being beheaded, dismembered, and otherwise cut into pieces. I don't recall a single case of a un-enchanted mortal under the effects of the Berserk-verse's causality, which seems to greatly favor the Apostles against regular/mortal humans, actually taking down an Apostle. I may be wrong. It could be argued that some sort of magical backing, the aid of fate (The Godhand/causality), or vague reality warping abilities that allow Guts to completely defeat the odds/defy fate and allow him to get stronger with each battle (practically video game rules regarding xp.).

I'm kinda rambling here but I believe Guts is capable of doing damage by virtue of comparable physicals to Venom and an innate limited reality warping ability coupled with Dragonslayer's ethereal/magical qualities and The Berserker Armor's "healing" ability (Venom seems to easily have the healing advantage: he heals a lots faster than Guts). The reality warping is a theory, as to how it would be applicable to this battle, but Guts has a history of surprising his opponents by exceeding their perceptions/expectations and being capable not only of causing them damage (generally thought of as an impossibility to Apostles) but also of defeating/killing them and surviving "mortal" injuries. A lot of his abilities are tied with his defying causality/vague reality warping.

It is a stretch but I believe his defiance of causality is applicable to this situation in that it will enable him to basically rise to the challenge presented by an opponent. So he can hang physically, dish out effective damage (Venom's healing factor's upper limit doesn't seem to have been found, do you know if he can survive without a head? Or Bisected?). The sword/Guts seem to have an almost Wesley Gibson-like ability (Wanted, the comic, specifically) to kill things. I think that Guts can definitely cleave web/tendrils. He doesn't have feats vs. webbing specifically but cleaving un-cleavable things is Guts' jam.

I don't believe Guts' feats are as clearly quantified as Marvel's power scale which certainly makes it difficult to assess exact levels of damage resistance or output... I mean, dude fights crystalline dragon-like monsters and giant winged panther-goats with similarly unquantifiable levels of ability/power.

He probably won't recognize a gun for what it is but I doubt regular bullets (are they regular bullets? If they are adamantium Guts is f*****, if they are symbiote material I don't think they will pierce mostly because Venom's strength isn't launching them so much as a gun which packs less of a punch) are going to pierce his armor. Which actually does have a helmet. I'm sure Venom could pierce the armor but he is going to need to avoid getting hacked into pieces.

My 2 cents.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@granitesoldier:

If you look at my above scan, Venom would have to dodge at mach speeds in order to dodge the shell. At that range, it'd be impossible not to.

I'm honestly not seeing why it requires mach speed movements. He's starting at the canon before it was fired, not during fire or anything.

Also what you're talking about for Guts sounds like nothing more than straight line travel speed. Venom blitzed Carnage and cut his head off, someone who has at times shown to be far faster than Spider-Man, Scarlet Spider, and Venom. But he still managed to pull it off.

It's not simply travel speed, what I'm trying to show is how fast he can see things coming and react to them:

For example: He has been fighting for a while, lost a lot of blood, poisoned, set himself on fire to get rid of elf bugs on his body,can't see properly because it's night, groggy as result of.. many things, and literally nowhere to go because he can't fly and they're hundreds of feet in the air. But still:

Perceives an attack quite above the speed of sound and reacts to it: (ask if you need to see the scans of her causing massive sonic booms, and guts explaining feeling them.

Or silat's attacks, which people can't even see (well, except for elites members of the hawks like the one warning guts here)

he can pretty much wait and catch them from a few centimeters, no issue.

Or the even faster attacks, coming from twenty different directions:

goes through them pretty easily.

He's quite effective at using the speed in combat, not just travel:

Might contain a crazy goat-demon trying to have it's way with a girl. Skip the first scan if you're offended.

Note that the slope on which his blur/footstep marks are shown, there are a few dozen people between the kid and it. It's shown closer to mark his entry.

Maybe Guts is faster, but the point of my first post is that they seem to be at least at comparable speeds on average. If that didn't come across well then that is my fault and I apologize.

No need to apologize. What I was saying is guts seems a faster to me, or at least his speed is better emphasized on.

As for firearms, does Guts even know what a gun is? If he doesn't, it could be over very quick, he wouldn't even recognize the threat.

Well, considering he carries around a canon in his arm, he would be able to recognize the threat. Plus he has the sheer reflexes required to see and react to objects that fast, and once he grasps the danger, it's a matter of aim-dodging.

Hard to aim dodge guns while getting attacked in melee with sword-arms and mace fists though. Dodging the firearm isn't the issue, it's doing it point blank while Thompson is swinging at him that is.

I'm curious if thompson trying to swing at him in melee range is a good idea, though. The skill advantage, gap in destructive power of blades, speed advantage.. It just seems like he'll be hacked to pieces if he tries engaging melee..

Shatters metal weapons like nothing:

note the speed.

The attack movements are too fast to even perceive ordinarily; not one slash, people literally can't see the fight. Mentioned multiple times in the series, Even being near the fight could kill people..

mentioned here, I think I could post another instance where the sword wind is literally shown cutting people around them, though I can't place the instance.

cuts through stone as large as himself:

in the prototype chapter.

Blitzes through fully armored soliders, the people behind him have trouble keeping up just running:

Sorry, there are too many scans here.

But worth it.

(he's panting because he's angry, not tired. You can see for yourself though.)

And because a weapons damages demons or incorporeals doesn't auto-equate to doing more damage to an alien-human bonded creature. There are plenty of items in various lores designed for certain purposes and are otherwise mundane. For example, Drax can bypass Thanos' exemplary durability, and his ripped out his heart. However that doesn't mean he could repeat it against someone like Thor, or could do so when the GotG fought Prodigy. He was bred for being the anti-Thanos. In the Forgotten Realms there are demonbane weapons that are otherwise mundane magical items (as mundane as magical weapons can be anyway) that relieve tremendous power boosts when fighting demons and other extra-planar creatures. Then used against people, they are simply mundane magical blades. Is there anything to suggest otherwise with Guts' blade? Just because he fights demons (so has Thompson for the record, and bested Damian Hellstrom) doesn't mean his blade is going to bypass Venom's healing.

Ah, you misunderstood. This isn't the simple lets-you-hit-the-spirits kind of hit. It's a direct wound on the etheral body/soul - simply healing the body back to full won't help in that case. The wound will keep reopening.

like this:

That's why he also managed to wound one of the God hand, she was literally "cut me, oh it feels so good" before that. Posting the scans might get me a warning.

This appears to be skill (which I'd say Guts has a slight edge in) vs versatility, durability, and healing. Strength is a non-point since both tend to not swing with fists.

Guts doesn't use a sword, he uses a large arsenal of weapons, including crossbow, throwing knives, arm canon, granade-like explosives, and an extremely cunning strategist (ask if you need examples), inhumanly vile at times when it comes to killing monsters (Believe me, you'll forgive the attitude if you know the backstory)

Just saying He's not just a one-trick pony either. The sword is a primary attack method, and famous for being iconic.

Too big, too thick, too heavy, too rough. It's more like a slab of iron. Hm. Where have I heard that before?

Yep, That's what she said :p

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PrinceAragorn1

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@laylah said:

@princearagorn1: Is Berserk really that good? I watched the OVA called Berserk: The Golden Age Arc and was awesome.

Yes, absolutely. One of the, and pretty close to being The manga/comic series I've read to date. Did you see all three OVA released, or just one? Even so, I'd suggest going through the manga from the start, they compressed about 50+ large chapters, first into 20 episode anime and then into three movies.

I'm thinking about start to read the manga, but I have my doubts too.

Well, if you're asking if it stays as dark, yes. It lightens up every now and then, but still has similar disturbing moments. Not something I enjoy personally, but this is one of the few things that make those worth it. (Like watching stark moments of game of thrones, but I'd argue much more devastating..)

@slimj87d said:

@princearagorn1: but everything I posted is backed up with feat in hand.

He has destroyed things that have been said to deflect canon balls, etc.

Well, yes. but calcs in general are... not done properly for a start, and vary wildly based on the calcer. Sometimes, two characters having about equal feats are outright seen at different level because one side keeps spamming calcs. In general I don't see the need to show calcs, when you can simply gauge the feat by looking at it.

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GraniteSoldier

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#47  Edited By GraniteSoldier

@nothingclever: I wrote a nice response, but CV ate my post (as it's known to do of late) so I'll try to reciprocate (@princearagorn1 I hope to address many of your issues here as well). But before I begin NC, it shouldn't be strange that people can debate civilly (but I understand your surprise haha) since it remains fun that way. Also my laptop fried this weekend, so this is all phone so I will unfortunately not be able to upload further scans but can give issue references if needed. Anyway:

Speed, I think we have worked out. Speed is roughly equally, so who is faster is marginal at best. PA1, if you look at the scan you have nothing to show he moved before, during, or after it was moved. The scan shows him being aimed at, then him dodged and being shot at at the same time. Interpretation and speculation is all we have, but the scan shows him dodging a tank shell. Anyway, as myself and NC have both discussed, speed is roughly equal and both are taking hits in this fight.

As for the sword being magical playing a factor, I still respectfully disagree. Again using Drax as a reference, he has no better striking or strength feats than say someone like Thor or Hulk, but he can (and has) torn Thanos' heart from his chest. Why? Because he's the anti-Thanos. He's imbued with that ability. Or the plethora of magical weapons in the Forgotten Realms designed to hurt certain creatures that are typically highly resistant/immune to normal damage (Lichbane, Demonbane, Dragonbane weapons all come to mind). These weapons are powerful magical items by their common usage, but against those types of threats they gain empowerment to combat and overcome the resistances of those types of foes. Guts' weapon seems to be the same for the demonic foes he faces. And considering Ghost Rider's soul-burning Penance Stare was ineffective, I don't buy Guts' weapon being any more successful.

As for causility/counter-reality manipulation I also don't see how that's a factor here. Useful against magicians, or reality warpers, sure...but Venom uses none of these components in combat. I don't see what benefit they provide here.

As for physical superiority I disagree here as well (speed aside). During his very first time wearing the symbiote (which was drugged, and this means Thompson and Venom had ZERO bond which is very important in Marvel symbiote lore) Thompson tipped up an Abrams tank on its edge. Since an Abrams tank weighs roughly 72 tons this means a weaker Venom than the one used here (not drugged, full bond) is roughly 40 tons. Not that strength really matters in a fight where both foes use incredibly sharp blades.

Not for healing, I've already shown Venom regrow what was essentially all of his head. Could Guts replicate? I haven't seen anything to suggest he can. I see great pain tolerance, but nothing to suggest he could heal from such a blow. I also notice a significant lack of head and neck armor. If Flash can cut Carnage's head off without Carnage reacting, he could do the same to Guts. Not to mention, I stress again, Venom's healing has never been taxed to the max. This is a guy who has fought through and overcome his weaknesses (sonics/fire as we all know) to beat his foes. He fought the equivalents of Spider-Man, Captain America, and Hawkeye at once (when then having sonic weapons) and won. He's re-attached limbs against Toxin, and kept fighting. He's got more longevity than Guts by all account of what people have been saying here, which will be a determining factor here. And again Flash has cut through the 'indestructible' wings of Human Fly and through symbiotes which are notoriously difficult to cut in Marvel.

As for versatility, again, Guts needs to react to bullets at melee fired by an exceptional marksman while being attacked by someone who can fight evenly with Kraven and Valkyrie. Yes, Guts may have dodged cannonballs, but they have an average velocity of 1,400-1,700 ft/s depending on the make, model, year, etc. As opposed to your average rifle round that travels at roughly 2,900-3,100 ft/s. That's double in most cases. And this will be in melee range. That's a big jump to be able to say Guts will dodge one vs the next, especially if two or so are being fired while he's being swung at. It's not the volume of threats, it's the variety of threats at once in close range. Not to mention tanking a cannonball is blunt force damage, as opposed to a bullet that is piercing due to shape.

But that's just part of Thompson's arsenal. Like I said previously I haven't touched upon web-incap and symbiote tendril smother/restraint (mostly because it'd make for a boring argument) but he doesn't really have an answer to that. Not to mention Thompson carries flashbang grenades which will most assuredly blind/deafen/disorient Guts long enough allow Flash to strike (and Thompson has never been shown to be effected by his use of them for the record). Not to mention even though claws, sword-arm, and mace-fist are Thompson's favorite weapons to use, he's also used symbiote whips, bitten through his opponents, and even turned his tongue into a blade. Any part of his body can become a lethal threat in an instant, something Guts won't be prepared for.

So in conclusion (you have no idea how hard this was to write on the phone) this is a brutal fight where both fighters are taking hits. Both can do damage, no denial. But the X factor is that Thompson can take more, and dish out as much. There's also still the versatility. Not that Venom has more than Guts necessarily, but he has more that will be effective against his foe than Guts.

Sorry for the long read, and I think my original post was better. But oh well.

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@princearagorn1: I disagree with you. A lot of people here don't know or understand how powerful something like a canon ball can be. To some people, the feat isn't that significant at all unless you help open their eyes. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone here as no one here from my knowledge would do so, but other anonymous readers may not know.

Not too long ago someone tried to say that Wolverine can take Guts because he survived a sword strike from skaar and get up quickly to fight again. Through simple calcs, not even that difficult, I was able to prove that Skaar's sword strike wasn't equal to the sword strikes Gut's has performed.

Although we both support Guts, I'll only agree that calcs aren't always needed due to inconsistencies in feats for some characters. But Guts feats are consistent enough to the point that I'll disagree on the usefulness they have here.

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NothingClever

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@granitesoldier: Holy s*** dude, you typed that on your phone? That is dedication.

You are correct, I shouldn't be surprised that civil discourse can happen on the Vine but I have just seen so much bull**** trolling and generally obnoxious behavior on this site. Anyway, I'm just pleasantly surprised that this thread is so "how it should be."

Again, you make solid points.

I wish that I could make a better case for Guts but as I stated, his stats are unquantifiable. I'm going to assume they are comparable in most areas (basically this does not seem like a mismatch). I do believe him capable of harming, even killing, Venom with the Dragonslayer because it is several hundred lbs. of metal being swung at sonic, perhaps hypersonic speeds. I also see the magical nature of Guts/the sword playing a part in cutting power vs. the symbiote. You seem to agree that both combatants are capable of harming each other, works for me.

I think dodging cannon balls is a low to mid speed feat for Guts. I would argue that he should be able to dodge bullets at least enough to avoid a fatal wound. I don't really think he would need to though as I believe his armor would protect him from regular bullets. The armor does in fact have a neck/head piece. The Berserker armor is kind of a symbiote. GUts must struggle against it overwhelming him with berserker rage and fighting until literally he or everything/one else is dead. Typically the head coverage being active is indicative of Guts starting to go "berserk" under the armor's influence. This could be considered a weakness. A standard part of the armor's lore is protecting its wearer and sewing/patching wounds suffered (in a brutal fashion) so I don't think it would be out of character for the headpiece to be active against a foe like Venom.

Venom has the edge in healing. I was actually unaware that he can survive his head being cut off/destroyed. If Venom possibly cannot be killed via bladed weaponry then this may be a mismatch. Guts cannot survive with his head cut off and I doubt he can reattach limbs once severed.

I do not have a counter to flash bangs other than to say that Guts has thrown weapons and explosives at his disposal as well. Is fire/sonic weaponry still effective vs. Venom? Seems a well-placed explosive as a distraction followed by a frontal assault could pull a win for either party.

@princearagorn1 made a great point about the ethereal/soul damage the Dragonslayer inflicts and the persistence of physical damage (due to ethereal damage) it inflicts. Negating/weakening Venom's healing factor while dealing extreme, normally fatal (to those without a symbiote), damage would earn Guts some wins.

I don't believe Guts is going to succumb to being smothered or incapacitated by tendrils/webbing. His answer: cleaving. Or dodging. Or maybe his weird causality/reality defying ability kicking in to make them less effective. But mostly cleaving. Lol.

This seems like a battle in which there will be a lot of double kills (ties due to both Kombatants dieing).

I'm gonna leave it to @princearagorn1 to argue feats and calcs, dude's got the scans.

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#50  Edited By GraniteSoldier

@nothingclever: Ha, thanks. It sacked typing with thumbs.

This one will be much shorter.

I agree it's hard to quantify feats without much comparative canon. Many indie characters suffer the same thing, which is why I'm giving Guts the benefit of the doubt and not dismissing his foes as 'featless' and 'plot victories'. I am a fan of a lot of indie characters and it gets to be a pain.

Anyway the smothering is like web-incap. Fast combatants with blades like Wolverine have been Web incapped, and Venom has that at his disposal plus the symbiote smother which restrained a 30-35 tonner in Kaine Parker. I don't see Guts in that strength tier, so he wouldn't be able to slash his sword.

Penance Stare also attacks the soul and since that was ineffective against Venom I don't see why this sword would be.

Fire/sonics are 'effective' against Flash. He has some highs and lows but he has consistently resisted powerful attacks of both types. He takes sonic arrows, was unaffected by the sonic boom generated by the tank in my above scan, fought through Spider-Queen's sonic scream (as well as Hobgoblin's, two-thirds Jack O'Lantern after taking a building level explosion (and did so while standing in the fire), fought through Damian Hellstroms fire magic...you get the idea. He's used grenades while being point blank with the explosion himself (did so against Jack O'Lantern in Venom #1) and was fine. So it takes some pretty damn powerful sonic/fire weapons to effect him.

Anyways I think we've both said everything we have to say on the matter haha. I'm getting to where I'm repeating repeating myself (Venom only has a handful of issues). It was a fun debate, much respect. I'll let the onlookers decide. Peace man.

Edit: ok maybe it wasn't that much shorter...