@ziggystardust: Upset about the 5 lives wasted by Caedus' blade while he drinks coffee? Given that I respect Grevious and Katarn as fighters, it'd be a pity to see them get humiliated by a vastly superior opponent, as powerful as each of them are. As such, I'll prepare 5 coffins right away.
Of course I'm upset. This isn't a fair match because Caedus butchers them.
Look bro I get it, you love Caedus. If Jacen's your favorite Sith Lord then I know that the idea of ones favorite loosing in battle is a sore subject. But don't get to bent out of shape that Grevious in his Lengends incanation, has better feats when it comes to swordplay and would beat a strike team of katarn and Horn etc in a better fashion, to which most people agree :)
Look bro I get it, you love Caedus. If Jacen's your favorite Sith Lord then I know that the idea of ones favorite loosing in battle is a sore subject.
Nice assumption of thinking that Caedus is my favourite Sith Lord. You got it wrong, sir. Just because I rank him higher than most on this board does not mean that I am a fan of him. My favourite Sith Lords are Dooku and Vader, and even I know Caedus beats these two.
But don't get to bent out of shape that Grevious in his Lengends incanation, has better feats when it comes to swordplay and would beat a strike team of katarn and Horn etc in a better fashion, to which most people agree :)
Except that Caedus has better skill feats than Grevious does. Pitting Grevious against the second strongest blademaster in the Star Wars mythos is laughable, to say the least.
Nice assumption of thinking that Caedus is my favourite Sith Lord. You got it wrong, sir. Just because I rank him higher than most on this board does not mean that I am not a fan of him.
Except that Caedus has better skill feats than Grevious does. Pitting Grevious against the second strongest blademaster in the Star Wars mythos is laughable, to say the least.
Considering that you reduced yourself to accusing others of being fanboys and throwing tantrums, when it is obvious that neither of those are the case, I will be accepting your concession. You are dismissed.
That moment when @ZiggyStardust: tries to hide his Griveous fanboyism and @Noobsnowman: be countering left, right & centre.
Let the CAV Commence!
@Noobsnowman: Darth Caedus
VS.
@ZiggyStardust: General Grievous
Well first of all citizen, I'm not being entirely serious about Grevious superseding Caedus' swordplay. However on account for his engagement with multiple Jedi, he basically is. It is stated in Legacy of the Force - Fury that the Katarn alone is "a threat" to Caedus. So to say someone like Caedus "slaughters Grevious with the lightsaber, and it's not even close." When Katarn is specially stated to be a challenge by source material, is telling :)
To elaborate: It is said that the three without Katarn Jedi knights wouldn't be a match for Caedus, :
Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi Knights were no match for him.
Katarn, though, was a threat
- Fury
But I'll ask you what's so impressive about being better than three young Jedi knights, who are vastly lacking exposure and by most accounts, featless? What for the individuals:
Valin Horn - His biggest claim to fame is his talent of "taming wild creatures". Credit to him for mastering the art of beast control and if there's a large Krayt Dragon in his engagements, it would be useful. Unfortunately, beast assistance wasn't on the menu during the undercity ambush. So he had to rely on his skills as a swordsman... and as far the books go his only accomplishment is dueling his father while the latter was "holding back". Mithric - Featless, outside his inability to react to a blaster bolt. Hu'lya - Featless.
Of course Katarn is fairly impressive himself. But by account of his showings, he's not likely to be that much above the likes of Qui Gon Jinn. However, It is stated at one point, that the lightsaber portion of the fight is "even" by the account of Seha, who's head protruded from the pavement hatch as she watched her four companions:
The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even. Each time the lightsabers came together, the resulting flash of light, slightly greater than two glows by themselves, cast the five combatants into relief.
- Fury
So as it stands Caedus was unable to overcome the swordplay of Katarn and his acolytes. And if you think he was holding back in any fashion. I'd like to point out his own thoughts on the subject were :
"They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me."
- Darth Caedus : Fury
It's only until his backup, in the form of 12 GAG Troopers and 4 GAG Airspeeders arrived that he felt relived. So he allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. As he hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute. It's only between the distraction of his troops meant he was able to gain an advantage. No, not through lightsaber mastery. But instead through the Force:
While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn. Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through. Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.
-----
Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncom-ing GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.
A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.
- Fury
A common trope to discredit the teams valiant effort against Caedus, is to highlight injuries he sustained weeks prior to his engagement with Luke. It's to be noted that these aren't fresh wounds and had been treated during the previous novel Inferno. They simply weren't fully recovered. However, this was only a hinderance towards the end of the fight where it was remarked that he was loosing strength. This wasn't apparent during the saber-portion of the altercation and luckily for Caedus, while his GAG troopers were shooting at the team. I could adhere to the fact that for Dark siders; injuries, even past ones, are able to give the user a slight boost through rage.
As for Grevious:
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Beating... no. Stomping three council masters, one master and two knights with lightsabers alone and no external aid. The two achievements aren't remotely close.
I'd say there's a lot of micro-agression in these responses :
Again @citizensentry, If he can respond to my post on why beating a strike team comprised of 3 featless Jedi knights carried by Katarn through the Force is a better swords-feat than Grevious taking on a team of renowned 3 council masters, 1 master, a knight and a padawan, and do it without getting upset. Then we're golden :)
I'd say there's a lot of micro-agression in these responses :
AGAIN @citizensentry, If he can respond to my post on why beating a strike team comprised of 3 featless Jedi knights carried by Katarn through the Force is better than Grevious taking on a team of renowned 3 council masters, 1 master, a knight and a padawan, and do it without getting upset. Then we're golden :)
So let me guess this right, you think Kyle Katarn is Darth Caedus.
You're posting pictures of Snowman talking about Darth Caedus (Someone who would in fact slaughter General Grievous) while at the bottom of your post you asked me to provide evidence of Kyle Katarn being better than Grievous...
A character musing about another being a threat to it doesn't make them a threat.....
Caedus is literally mentioning that out of the group Kyle is the only one who has any way of potentially harming him
Kyle vs Caedus would end in Katarn getting stomped every single time. He's vastly inferior in the force, lacks esoteric and force knowledge that Caedus is boasting, lacks the speed to contend in a duel for any length of time, throw on Caedus' aiing-tii fighting sight and its a wrap...
You're posting pictures of Snowman talking about Darth Caedus (Someone who would in fact slaughter General Grievous) while at the bottom of your post you asked me to provide evidence of Kyle Katarn being better than Grievous...
I get it. You're his alt. Consider yourselves blocked.
A character musing about another being a threat to it doesn't make them a threat.....
Caedus is literally mentioning that out of the group Kyle is the only one who has any way of potentially harming him
No. That is not Caedus' own thoughts on the subject. Learn the difference. First person is when you are talking about yourself. When you use ‘I’, I, 'mine', 'me' and then you are talking in First Person. While narrating your own experience or while a writer is writing about his own story, he uses First Person singular or First Person Plural.
Example: I’m eating a cake.
Related example : "They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me." - Fury
In the third-person narrative mode, each and every character/persona is named to by the narrator as "he", "she", "it", or "they", never as "I" or "we" (first-person), or "you" (second-person). In third-person narrative, it is clear that the narrator is an unspecified entity or uninvolved person who conveys the story and is not a character of any kind within the story.
Example: He was snoring very loudly.
Related example : He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi Knights were no match for him. Katarn, though, was a threat
Kyle vs Caedus would end in Katarn getting stomped every single time.
Kyle would certainly loose to Caedus every time. Nobodies differing that opinion. In fact, had it not been for his team mate, he would have lost a leg when trying to gain advantage by kicking Caedus. But while you're busy hiding underneath the general blanket of Caedus > Katarn, you're arguments (or lack of) don't discredit Kyle being a genuine threat to him. For example, Ven Zallow is stated to "pose a challenge" to Malgus as of deceived, but no worthy writer would depict Malgus loosing that type of fight. The general point is that a team of 3 relatively unexperienced Jedi carried by Katarn were fighting evenly with him during the saber portion of the fight. The Jedi Knights; Valin, Hu'lya and Mithric were stated to me no match for him collectively. Implying that Katarn is better than all three together.
There's no counterargument to this, they're featless outside of Valin's spar with his dad. So it stands to reason that Katarn and another master; lets say Corran Horn, would be able to fight just as well in duel. Add in Kyp Durron and Kam Soulsar and Caedus is beyond screwed. The actual strike team however, were never destined to beat Caedus and his armed troops:
"The package is on Colonel Solo." Ben frowned, puzzled. "What's the package?" "A tracer." Luke outlined a square about five centimeters across on the table surface. "About so big. Black cloth. As long as it remains on Jacen, we can accurately plot where he is, get a better sense of his movements."
Ben considered that. "So ... you were sure that the mission you sent Valin on would fail."
Kyp nodded. "The ambush portion of it, yes. Once I realized that we couldn't mount a successful grab-or-terminate mission against Jacen without being able to control the place and the time, I decided that it should be as realistic as possible. ... but also that it would serve chiefly to set up future operations. Ones that have a chance of succeeding."
No. That is not Caedus' own thoughts on the subject
Yes it is. He states that Katarn is the only "threat" out of the entire group. The character is "snorting" in contempt at the idea of these jedi being a problem for him. If a character is reacting to a sentence written by the author then that same sentence is being mirrored in said characters thoughts. If it was simple author statements the character wouldn't react. How often do you read books?
Learn the difference
I'll "learn the difference" when you learn to spell
Kyle would certainly loose
It's *lose. Try to keep up Darth.
The essence of your agenda is to lowball Caedus and attempt to show that he's less skilled than Grievous or only just as skilled. The problem with citing the fight on hypori with the council masters is that said masters are lacking in any substantial feats and then on top of that you add in that all of them were fatigued from fighting for their lives against a separatist army and you get the context.
In analyzing the fight on hypori you notice several interesting instances
1. All of them are fatigued and appear to be at the limits of the endurance, they can only draw on the force so much before their bodies are taxed.
Meaning Grievous will inherently have a speed advantage over them which we can see clearly by him outpacing literally all of them at the same time
2. He wiped out half several of them because of them over extending, he did not out duel them. Not to say he couldn't but you're arguing that he out skilled all of them at the same time wholly disregarding the circumstances.
Tarr seirr charged him while holding his lightsaber above his head, grievous grabbed him with his foot. Aayla jumped at him with her lightsaber above her head and he grabbed her with his other foot and tossed them both.
3. He held off all of them at the same time by turning his lightsabers into a shield by spinning them, which doesn't count as skill at all. His technique and unique body allows him to take on multiple opponents at once.
To sum up that fight, he kills 3 members of the team as a result of them over extending themselves. The team wasn't working in concert at all, utilizing their force advantage, playing on each others strengths/weaknesses etc. Above all Ki-Adi-Mundi was able to hold off Grievous himself whilst fatigued. Ki-adi-mundi also doesn't have really any decent feats of skill with a blade besides holding off Grievous till help arrived so there's that.
When Katarn is specially stated to be a challenge by source material
I would like to address this statement as well. You're blurring the line between being a threat and being a challenge. Caedus noting Kyle as a threat doesn't equate to him being a challenge. A 10 year old with a baseball bat would be a threat to me, since he could harm me, yet it doesn't mean that I couldn't pick up a bat myself and demolish him with ease.....
Comparing feats kyle isn't a challenge for Caedus at all.
Also don't make that respect thread, I think it would be more conducive if a non biased user WITHOUT an agenda made it.
Yes it is. He states that Katarn is the only "threat" out of the entire group.
Indeed. The narrator states. And I find myself repeating points. You're original premise was that a "character musing about another being a threat to it doesn't make them a threat.." - which strongly Implies that Katarn isn't factually a threat regardless of the source text, and is only a threat Jacen's fail-able opinion according to your inference. To which I pointed out the difference in the narration of first and third person; even adding in a hint of what second person narration would read like so you don't get too con-fuddled :) It appears the concept is lost on you. So to reiterate:
The voice of the narrator and the choice of the perspective that the author uses to engage the reader significantly affects the style of the narrative. This is determined by the choice of person that the narrator writes through.
The person speaking (first person)
the person listening or being spoken to (second person)
the person being spoken about (third person)
Using the first person, narrators create texts in their characters voice. They are personally placed in the story or related closely to them. The choice of first person, especially the singular "I" or "me", generally makes the writing very personal and engages the reader with that characters perspective. Hence why I used the example :
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me. - Jacen Solo's self think : Fury
So it is clear that Jacen's own thoughts on various events are addressed with the subjective pronoun 'me'. The ‘person’ or voice is set by the pronouns used and is part of linking pronoun references within and between sentences and paragraphs. An example in other fiction:
At dawn, I set out on my horse for the wood at the edge of the village of Treegap. I was going there as I did once every ten years, to meet my two sons, Miles and Jesse. At noontime, I, Winnie Foster, whose family owned the Treegap wood, lost my patience at last and decided to think about running away. And at sunset a stranger appeared at my gate. He was looking for someone, but he didn’t say who. - Tuck Everlasting by Natalie Babbitt
Third person is used where the writer or speaker is describing someone else, and not their own personal experience. This is where the text uses 'she', 'he', 'it', 'they', 'her', 'his' and 'their'.
The character is "snorting" in contempt at the idea of these jedi being a problem for him. If a character is reacting to a sentence written by the author then that same sentence is being mirrored in said characters thoughts.
Reductio Ad Absurdum: And then I'd have to frame that to yourself. If the authors words describing a character are being "mirrored" why does that deem the sentence to be fail-able, or in your words if "character musing about another being a threat to it doesn't make them a threat". If anything, this means we have two reliable elements deeming Katarn a threat to Jacen. The first is the Authors purpose and intention, and the second is Jacen's thoughts "mirrored" in the selection. But to Identify the Author’s Purpose: why did the author write the Selection? The authors purpose is the reason that the author chose to write the passage. To discern weather this information contains bias we have to ask what the intent is? To persuade? To entertain? To inform? To express? As their isn't much ambiguity from the language or any reason to believe it's a bias statement. It's more than likely to be an objective statement describing Katarn's level relative to Jacen.
So now your left with a tale old predicament. If Katarn being a threat is simply Jacen's own opinion and such evidence isn't substantial by your conjecture, then what arguments are you bringing to contradict this? Seen as you've admitted your knowledge on Jacen isn't significant enough for any kind of CV featuring Caedus, I'd say none :)
Of course if you're willing to go as far as defaming the authors intention, then I might remind you that Aaron Allston has been writing SW material since the 90's, so I'm going to assume he's more credible then someone who "doesn't have enough feats for Caedus" ;-)
Basically you're appealing to the mass of belief, Just as every other Caedus fanboy. That a claim as evidence for an idea, that many people believe it. When it simply isn't true .
I'll "learn the difference" when you learn to spell
It's *lose. Try to keep up Darth.
Is attacking my spelling an attempt to avoid having to defend your claims in the matter of a concept? I imagine it's connected to various diversionary tactics, which are both obstructive and obtuse. For example, if you quibble about the meaning of some word a person used, they may be quite happy about being corrected, since that means they've derailed you, or changed the subject. But having to point out spelling is very often a clear sign that you realise you have no valid points.
The essence of your agenda is to lowball Caedus and attempt to show that he's less skilled than Grievous or only just as skilled.
Lowballing, is merely a throw-around-term that gets spammed like an ejaculating steed by fanboys but why isn't highbaling a frequent quip? On the contrary, I haven't yet to truly lowball Caedus and you've only assumed to take away the credibilty of my points by deeming it lowballing. It's an argument by dismissal. an idea is rejected without saying why. The irony of the matter is, contending with Katarn and the 3 Jedi knights; however lowly they are. Is one of his best feats as a swordsman. This is lowballing :
And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.
- Fury
This is where the featless Jedi knight single-handidly beats down his parries. Ignoring context, we're viewing a superior Jedi (mithric) beating down the defences of a lesser one (jacen). Of course, when applying context - this is when Jacen lamented his not fully recovered wounds starting to tax him and Mithric was experiencing something of a rage-mode after Katarn's supposed 'death'.
The problem with citing the fight on hypori with the council masters is that said masters are lacking in any substantial feats
There is no problem @eisenfauste. You're trying to look for problems as the team in question is vastly. VASTLY better than the one Jacen faced. You know they are too.
and then on top of that you add in that all of them were fatigued
They weren't fatigued, as in they're were able to draw on the force to hurl debris and steel pipes as well as the standard pressurized missile, Force push. A small argument that they had been exhausted after fighting armies can be made, but it would have to be backed up by substantial evidence, rather than " they fought before so the must be exhausted. derp". Prove that they were exhausted to the extent where it makes a difference. Use examples from the medium itself. For example Mace had been spending a decent time on the battlfield before decimating armies of super battledroids with his fists. The barely knighted Jedi Rivi Anu had fought an entire battle, sustained a blaster injury and yet she was able to lift a Star Destoryer with one arm through telekinesis. As far as fatigue goes, the only Jedi who had shown the obvious signs of weariness was K'kruhk on Hypori.
In other mediums, fighting armies before reaching a boss fight isn't unprecedented or seen as something circumstantial. The only reason you believe they're fatigued is because of your view of things that are "common sense". However this means taking a stance that is common, and not one backed by evidence. Evidence suggests defeating an army isn't seen as being as difficult as fighting one powerful opponent, all through Star Wars. You can kill a relatively shitty droids until your arms get tired. It's much harder to take out an opponent who is good enough to provide you with a real challenge. Again, hence why Malak is the ultimate challenge in a gauntlet with lots of featless dark Jedi and droids for Revan. It's the reason why Cade Skywalker and Wolf Sazen etc had to cut through groups of up to a dozen Sith And they did so without a heap of difficulty, before getting to the likes of Talon and Nhil. It's the reason why Maul destroyed the entire black sun-gang before meeting a challenge in Mighella.
You have assumed that this was a major circumstance attributing to Grevious' decisive victory. Yet as most of your claims, it's pure conjecture. You have also might have forgotten, or simply hadn't the knowledge of Jedi and Sith exploiting intervals to rejuvenate their reserves :
Down the way, pinned between two walls of laser beams, Qui-Gon Jinn knelt in meditation, facing toward the Sith Lord and the melting pit, his head lowered over his lightsaber. He was gathering himself for a final assault, bringing himself in tune with the Force. Obi-Wan did not like the weariness he saw in the slump of the older man's shoulders, in the bow of his back. He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old.
----
It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful.
- The Phantom Menance
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
----
There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.
- Revenge of the Sith
Luke leaned heavily on his nephew. "We have to get to the ship."
Jacen hugged his right arm around Luke's waist. "What's wrong? Did they hurt you?"
"No, Jacen, it's just that..." Luke's chest heaved with exertion. "It's just that using that much of the Force, using it that directly, is exhausting. A Jedi may be able to control and use a great deal of the Force, but there is a price, a fearful price. Hurry, we have to go, quickly."
----
Luke sank back into the chair and closed his eyes. He took a deep breath and reached out through the Force. He let his sense of things ride above the frayed ones' jagged profile and vectored in toward the vehicle. He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.
He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.
- Onslaught
The team had enough time to rejuvenate their reserves as it's a universal ability granted to all Jedi. None of them had sustained injuries and other than K'krukh, they had been hidden for a fair period of time before facing the Cyborg menace. Your assumption is that I hadn't taken the teams possible weariness into account. I had, but based on all available evidence, it simply isn't a major factor and if it was, The team of Kiadi Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'kruhk, Aylaa Secura and the featless Tarr Sierrn is still better than the a team of 3 featless Jedi knights and Katarn. Unless you're counting Valin's beast control :)
He wiped out half several of them because of them over extending, he did not out duel them. Not to say he couldn't but you're arguing that he out skilled them.
Tarr seirr charged him while holding his lightsaber above his head, grievous grabbed him with his foot. Aayla jumped at him with her lightsaber above her head and he grabbed her with his other foot and tossed them both.
3. He held off all of them at the same time by turning his lightsabers into a shield by spinning them, which doesn't count as skill at all. His technique and unique body allows him to take on multiple opponents at once.
And while you're busy drawing strawmen to compensate for the lack of knowledge on Caedus, I supposedly have to argue why these non-points have very little affect to Grevious favour. The truth is Grevious was simply good enough physically to maintain a constant offence/defence in pursuit of 5 Jedi. His physicallity is heavily relied upon, as is the basis for Grevious' might. According to you I'm arguing that he out skilled them,which is nothing more than an ambiguous assertion, as it is sufficiently unclear that it leaves some sort of leeway to your stance. It's also a lie. lol. Can you point out where I said Grevious is more skilled than Caedus.
Of course, skill is only one component to the general ability of lightsaber duelists.
The first would be their lightsaber in terms of pure fencing ability (skill) The second thing would be the force, which includes precognition, force aided speed, movement and strength. In Grevious' case, it's his enhanced cybernetics that afford these edges, including four arms.
An example of someone beating down their opponent with a superior Force connection Is Bane as of Path of Destruction fighting the lightsaber instructor Kas'im. While Kas'im is - without doubt - the technical more refined combatant, Bane forces him back because of his higher force potential himself and counter-attacked, forcing his former teacher back into the Temple of the Ancients and into a dead end. Kas'im only overcomes this by exploiting Bane's weakness; his unfamiliarity with Jarkai.
For you to mention grievous holding unorthadox/physical edges over the team is one the mootest points I've come across on this board. As such attributes are the reason why Grevous is so formidable as a duelist.
utilizing their force advantage, playing on each others strengths/weaknesses etc. Above all Ki-Adi-Mundi was able to hold off Grievous himself whilst fatigued. Ki-adi-mundi also doesn't have really any decent feats of skill with a blade besides holding off Grievous till help arrived so there's that.
And while you're busy busting out non-points, may I remind you how Caedus gained advantage in his duel. Again, It is stated at one point, that the lightsaber portion of the fight is "even" by the account of Seha, who's head protruded from the pavement hatch as she watched her four companions:
The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even. Each time the lightsabers came together, the resulting flash of light, slightly greater than two glows by themselves, cast the five combatants into relief.
- Fury
So as it stands Caedus was unable to overcome the swordplay of Katarn and his acolytes. And if you think he was holding back in any fashion. I'd like to point out his own thoughts on the subject were :
"They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me."
- Darth Caedus : Fury
It's only until his backup, in the form of 12 GAG Troopers and 4 GAG Airspeeders arrived that he felt relived.
Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three. He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute. Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armored shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle.
- Darth Caedus : Fury
It's only between the distraction of his troops meant he was able to gain an advantage. No, not through lightsaber mastery. But instead through the Force:
While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through. Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.
I would like to address this statement as well. You're blurring the line between being a threat and being a challenge. Caedus noting Kyle as a threat doesn't equate to him being a challenge. A 10 year old with a baseball bat would be a threat to me, since he could harm me, yet it doesn't mean that I couldn't pick up a bat myself and demolish him with ease.....
You haven't successfully addressed the point on why Katarn isn't a threat. All you have done is moved the goalposts. You are now asking to adress the difference between the terminology "threat" and "challenge". This is a common tactic to avoid the subject so you can make these points more and more difficult (or diverse) then eventually your opponent (me) must fail. If nothing else, you will eventually find a subject that I'm not up on, or don't care about.
Also don't make that respect thread, I think it would be more conducive if a non biased user WITHOUT an agenda made it.
You honestly dare claim I'm biased from a point of anti-Caedus rhetoric? It's more like anti-fanboy rhetoric, with you being on the receiving end thanks to your choices. I've cramped enough actual explanations and hints regarding logic in order to enable you to change the way you make arguments for Caedus. You refused to use it, and stick to your old ways, pointing to "hur dur Caedus wins because eh does". Despite your professed lack of knowledge for his character.
@eisenfauste: I will be making a Caedus respect thread. It will contain his best feats and then you decide for yourself wether he's as good as you've perceived him to be :)
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