Gray Fox/Vamp vs Panther/Gorgon

Gray Fox and Vamp

Vs

Gorgon and Black Panther

Setting:

Start on opposite ends

Rules:

Current 616

Standard MGS versions

Win by any means

In character

@sirfizzwhizz @nickzambuto @beaconofstrength @comicstooge @highaccuser @ghostravage

Actually really hard time deciding....I'm leaning towards Marvel. Panther's skill plus gear really helps here. Gorgon has stomped Logan and Elektra and his speed/reaction time is insane. Combined with his own skill and physicals he isn't too far off from Gray Fox except for strength.

Team 1. T'Challa falls first.

REALLY?! I thought his gear and superhuman stats made him uber?

@darthaznable: Gray Fox and Vamp are both a lot more superhuman than Black Panther is, and by feats Vamp is actually the better martial artist. He has mastered techniques way out of Black Panther's depth, he's a supernatural martial artist, more like Iron Fist.

@darthaznable: Don't get me wrong, T'Challa is a beast, but Vamp is a monster. Vamp isn't going to play around with Panther, either, considering he only plays around with enemies he recognizes. Vamp is faster, more durable, stronger, and is very skilled in his own right. And Frank is pretty beastly too, considering he's bulletproof, well over a 100 tonner, high supersonic-hypersonic, with invisibility, and is equipped with HF & plasma weapons.

It'll be a good fight, though.

that gray fox pic solos honestly.

@beaconofstrength: @nickzambuto: Guess my knowledge of Vamp just isn't there. Tbh I was thinking for Team MG when I first looked at the battle.

@darthaznable: There's also the colossal strength disproportionate here. We've got two street levelers facing a 500 tonner and a multithousand tonner. And only one of those two street levelers actually has the speed to match. Black Panther is seriously out of his league here, to say the least, I think the only way for him to survive would be if he had his vibranium suit, but slashing the grain has always been that suit's weakness anyway.

An interesting question is whether Gorgon's stone stare would work on Gray Fox, given the fact that he's a cyborg.

@beaconofstrength: @nickzambuto: Tomi solos with Stone Stare.

/thread

Out of curiosity, tell me what makes Vamp a multi-thousand tonner?

Team 2. Vamp gets his head blitzed off by Gorgon or just generally fails to match Gorgon's speed and superior move reading while Black Panther uses energy gear that he used on Namor to take out Grey Fox as he's faster and much, much more skilled by feats. Grey Fox being nowhere near as strong as Namor falls pretty handily to that tactic.

In fact, why exactly can't Gorgon solo? Grey Fox has no feats of anything on his level except raw strength which wouldn't matter. Literally the only problem is his durability but if Snake can beat him to death I don't see why someone 4 times stronger than Snake can't do the same, especially since he benefits from the ability to blitz Grey Fox to hell.

@wyldsong: He was a physical match for Raiden.

team 2

Tomi's stone stare is a deal-breaker here.

Black Panther is never out of his league

Gray Fox goes down first because he lost to Snake who is on Batman's level.

Vamp falls next because Gorgon is too good for that shit.

I can think of several times characters with lower physical stats have matched those with greater physical stats...so honestly, this answer is less than satisfying. Let's discuss what I have learned about Raiden by watching several videos in an effort to learn more about Raiden. Revengeance Raiden is a bad arse, and is definitely a cut above Raiden as seen in MGS 4. Now while he is still bad arse in MGS 4, there are things that happen in that game, that probably would not have happened to Raiden with his upgrades as seen in the beginning of Revengeance.

In MGS 4, Raiden definitely has enough enhanced upper body strength to puncture and slice armored foes. The thing is though, we see in one scene where the geckos capture him with cables, he gives a yank, and isn't able to budge them with upper body strength. We see another scene where a boulder has trapped one of his arms, and he is unable to free himself, even with his free arm, but then has to resort to cutting off the arm. In his second fight with Vamp, we see his forearms impaled with knives and stuck in his body, and it takes him a little bit to actually free his arms. Not to mention, any hits he has performed, are not shown to be done so with multi-thousand tonner strength levels.

On the flip side though, he can run with enhanced speed (with some wall running), and make insane anime ninja style leaps and jumps. In the scene with the geckos, once Snake shoots and snaps a cable holding Raiden, he is able to wrap portions of the cable around his lower body, start the break dance maneuver with his legs/lower body, and spin two of the geckos around like nothing with the cables and his legs. As for the Outer Haven feat...for one, Outer Haven was smashing into what looked to be concrete docks, so it was going to start slowing regardless (probably not enough to save Snake alone), but Raiden pulls what is most definitely one of those heroic feats of desperation and need (in the vein of many a comic hero that suddenly digs deep and performs outside of their power levels), and plants his feat for leverage and struggles to slow Outer Haven with an impressive showing of lower body strength. Impressive as hell, and while slowed, Outer Haven still moves forward as concrete breaks, and Raiden is eventually overwhelmed.

In an average human, lower body/leg strength is approximately maybe 3-4 times stronger than the upper body/arms. In runners, it is probably even more so, and then we have members of the animal kingdom where the differences between upper and lower body strength are probably even more disproportionate (kangaroos for one). From everything I have seen, Raiden's lower body strength is disproportionate to his upper body strength in MGS 4 (kind of like Ricochet from Slingers or maybe even Batroc the Leaper, though Raiden is far above and beyond those two). Which makes sense, and provides good reasoning as to why the cables held him, he couldn't free himself from the boulder without cutting off his arm, etc (basically what people see as inconsistencies in his strength feats). They gave him plenty of servos and gears and such in his legs to perform many of his insane lower body feats, and just enough in his upper body to do what he needs to with his blades and such.

That being said, MGS 4 Raiden was definitely not a multi-thousand tonner upper body strength wise, and while the Haven feat is damn impressive, it was one of those heroic desperation moves that heroes often perform in many works of fiction, which is often outside of their limits (and we know it was outside of Raiden's because he does go down eventually and it wasn't sustainable). This is the Raiden that Vamp was able to match, not the Raiden that flipped a mech in Revengeance, who seemed to have been upgraded just a bit, especially upper body wise.

From what I have seen, Raiden is an awesome character, and I can see why you like him. There are some clear differences in Raiden's physical performance between MGS 4 and Revengeance from what I have seen, and I would be exceedingly hesitant to call Vamp a multi-thousand tonner because he matched MGS 4 Raiden in hand to hand.

The duo

LMFAO.

Marvel

When your out of arguments :P

@wyldsong: I don't think Raiden only has strength in his lower body, all of those instances you mentioned to support that theory have more context to them. But even if your theory was right and Raiden did only have strength in his lower body, that doesn't change Vamp's strength because we have this bit from their first fight where Raiden jumps onto Vamp's chest and starts stomping on him, and Vamp is neither crushed nor does he even fall down.

Vamp is bent over backwards and off balance. The fact that he didn't fall down, that his back and torso were able to stand up to Raiden's stomps without getting pushed down, proves that he is just as strong.

That said there is no reason to believe that Raiden lacks upper body strength to match his lower body. It's true that in regular people, sprinters, and animals the legs are a lot stronger than the arms, but Raiden is neither a regular human nor a professional sprinter nor an animal. He used to be a human, and in MGS4 his head and spinal cord were cut off and connected to a cyborg chassis. If the Patriots had the technology to make Raiden as powerful as he is, there would be literally zero benefit to putting that technology into his legs and then ignoring everything else.

There's nothing bad about Raiden being restrained by four Gekkos. When Gekkos are giant robots that probably weigh near 100 tons themselves, and they have the strength to leap over buildings and travel miles in a single jump, then four of them ganging up on Raiden and just barely restraining a single limb each doesn't speak ill of Raiden's power. Not to mention when he was breakdancing with them around his legs, he pressed his hand against the ground and propelled himself, along with the Gekkos strapped to him, into the air where he severed their cords. So that right there proves his arm strength isn't any less than his leg strength, he lifted the Gekkos into the air with just one arm.

At the end of Act 4, Raiden wasn't simply trapped underneath a boulder like you say. The whole tunnel caved in on top of him, but he was still in the tunnel, meaning it wasn't simply the act of lifting up the rocks. Raiden was trapped because the rocks were pressed against the roof, he couldn't just lift them, he would have needed to collapse the entire tunnel, which he obviously wasn't strong enough to do. As for the knives getting stuck in his arms, those were H/F Blades, unbreakable, of course Raiden couldn't just snap them. He couldn't pull them out of his back either because they were stuck in HIS back; it was his own durability keeping them stuck in, his own durability working against his own strength. Again, it makes sense he had a hard time.

Then we have the scene where he held back Outer Haven. Yes it took every ounce of strength and willpower in Raiden's body -- I don't see why that should take away from the feat. It was still under his own power and nothing more. And obviously holding back the ship required an equal effort of lower and upper body -- he planted his feet with his back propped up against it and arms holding it back.

It isn't simply the fact that Vamp is able to fight Raiden that makes them physically equal. They locked blades on several occasions and Raiden was unable to push Vamp back, at the end of their first fight Vamp restrained Raiden in a bear hug, and we have the aforementioned instance of Jack stomping on Vamp's chest and failing to knock him down. Vamp is just as strong as Raiden AKA multithousand tonner.

From what I have seen, Raiden is an awesome character, and I can see why you like him

I don't like Raiden. I'm just speaking facts here.

God helps Vamp who was actually harmed by Snake's headbutt but it's considered a 500 toner. So much flaws and holes here.

Snake has hurt more durable people with better raw durability than Vamp in the past. I don't agree that Vamp is a 100+ tonner, but I felt the need to point that out.

Also, game canon>comic & novel canon. They're all applicable, but video game canon always the main source.

@beaconofstrength: I can agree with Snake hurting him as i don't see either of them being anywhere near Nick is selling them to be. As soon as this 100+ toner stuff comes out for all the characters i just leave the thread. It's nonsensical, honestly.

Vamp is bent over backwards and off balance. The fact that he didn't fall down, that his back and torso were able to stand up to Raiden's stomps without getting pushed down, proves that he is just as strong.

I doubt Raiden was trying to stomp him into the ground.

@ghostravage: Eh, I can at least see where Nick is coming from, I just don't agree. I'd say Vamp is in the 5 ton-ish range.

But Snake did wound Grey Fox who was well over a 150 tonner, could easily tank bullets, and resist a 500 ton mech stomping on him. Snake hits very hard. Grey Fox definitely has the feats of being over a 100 tonner, even if it does seem a bit goofy.

@monsterstomp: Raiden, at the very least, was trying to kill Vamp. He literally hated Vamp more than everyome else combined.

@nickzambuto:

Vamp is bent over backwards and off balance. The fact that he didn't fall down, that his back and torso were able to stand up to Raiden's stomps without getting pushed down, proves that he is just as strong.

Raiden didn't appear to be trying to stomp him into the ground. Looked to be a little more finesse in the attack, with a quick stepping/stabbing motion. He wasn't violently stomping using all of his might, and did just enough force to stab Vamp in the chest. Not sure I buy that as proof that he is just as strong based on that, and he definitely wasn't putting out the kind of strength needed to slow down Outer Haven...then again, he wasn't in heroic desperation mode either.

That said there is no reason to believe that Raiden lacks upper body strength to match his lower body.

Actual there is plenty of reason to believe this, all of which I have already stated and outlined.

If the Patriots had the technology to make Raiden as powerful as he is, there would be literally zero benefit to putting that technology into his legs and then ignoring everything else.

And if he had multi-thousand tonner strength like you claim, then there would be no reason to even give him a sword, since multi-thousand tonner strikes would be devastating enough...

There's nothing bad about Raiden being restrained by four Gekkos.

A multi-thousand tonner with upper body strength in those levels...I doubt they would have restrained him that easily, especially without budging when he yanked. Then he is able to swing two of them around when he built momentum with his lower body/legs after the cables had been severed, and they definitely budged when he pulled with his lower body.

So that right there proves his arm strength isn't any less than his leg strength, he lifted the Gekkos into the air with just one arm.

He had them in full motion in that moment, inertia at work. His body was spinning, he pushed up from his lower body, with the weight of the geckos pulling outwards, spun up on his arm, and the leapt up and cut the cords. He didn't lift two geckos with one arm. That was more about the momentum and inertia than upper body strength, as their weight was not pushing down on him and he had the helicopter action kicking in the scene.

At the end of Act 4, Raiden wasn't simply trapped underneath a boulder like you say. The whole tunnel caved in on top of him, but he was still in the tunnel, meaning it wasn't simply the act of lifting up the rocks. Raiden was trapped because the rocks were pressed against the roof, he couldn't just lift them, he would have needed to collapse the entire tunnel, which he obviously wasn't strong enough to do

I watched the video again, and after he cuts off his arm, they show the top of the one that was on his arm as the camera pans up, it doesn't look like there is tons of debris piled on it all the way to ceiling. Even when he is reaching for the sword, and the shot pans back and shows the boulder/rock/debris, it doesn't even look like there is a pile of anything around the other side of it from the angle we see.

Besides, they don't give any indication whatsoever that there was worry of a tunnel collapse (he doesn't even look up)...he simply tries some tugs, can't move, and then goes for the sword, pulling and stretching, trying to gain some ground and failing, then dislocates his shoulder like a hardcore bad ass to get the sword...

As for the knives getting stuck in his arms, those were H/F Blades, unbreakable, of course Raiden couldn't just snap them. He couldn't pull them out of his back either because they were stuck in HIS back; it was his own durability keeping them stuck in, his own durability working against his own strength. Again, it makes sense he had a hard time.

He didn't need to snap them, and we aren't talking about something like a taser barb or a fish hook that digs in and tries to stay in...they were straight blades. His arms weren't at particularly difficult angles for a multi-thousand tonner to simply pull out...

Yes it took every ounce of strength and willpower in Raiden's body -- I don't see why that should take away from the feat. It was still under his own power and nothing more. And obviously holding back the ship required an equal effort of lower and upper body -- he planted his feet with his back propped up against it and arms holding it back.

His arm wasn't doing much of anything, it was his legs and lower body. Ever push a stalled vehicle by leaning your lower body/back side into it and pushing with your legs in a similar manner that Raiden did with the boat? You get more power, traction, leverage and general pushing ability than you would, turning around, leaning into the car with your upper body/arms, and pushing in that manner. Do it in the aforementioned manner (lower body/back side), your arms end up on the trunk/back of the vehicle, and do you know how much use they actually get? Not much. It's all lower body.

The feat was an awesome feat, and it took everything he had. It was impressive as hell, but there is a lot to factor into it.

Vamp is just as strong as Raiden AKA multithousand tonner.

MGS 4 Raiden is not a multi-thousand tonner from everything shown. His best feat took everything he had, and was a last resort, desperation, balls to the wall, heroic feat of epic proportions, but much like the mother who suddenly finds a burst of strength to lift a car off of a child, it isn't indicative of average strength levels. We can pull plenty of feats of heroes in comics pulling off insane feats they shouldn't normally be able to, and those feats often fall under the very same parameters as the mother example. They aren't the norm, and I don't see that one as being the norm. Doesn't make it any less impressive, as it showed a strength of character, and willpower to keep going to keep Snake safe, pushing his body past its limits. I find it highly impressive, I just am not mistaking it as an upper body, average Raiden level, multi-thousand tonner feat.

In short, you are overselling it.

I don't like Raiden.

Surprising. Personally, I like Raiden, and have enjoyed his story from everything I have seen and read.

Agreed. That did not appear to be the case.

I agree, I just don't see where he was trying to stomp him into the ground. He was puncturing Vamp with the pointy bits on his foot ware. Stomping someone into the ground with pure, brute force doesn't appear to be Raiden's standard modus operandi. He is a bit more about finesse from what I have seen.

@wyldsong: Admittedly I get the 'multithousand tonner' from the Outer Haven feat alone. There is a wide disparity between that feat, and then Raiden's second best strength feat. You want to call it an outlier, or chalk it up to adrenaline despite cyborgs not having adrenaline, or sheer will power, then fine. But you can't deny that Raiden is a 100 tonner. He is somewhere in that range, obviously, there's no disputing that. I really don't think the difference between his upper body and lower body is as severe as you seem to think. How does getting restrained by Gekko speak ill of his upper body, but not the same of his lower body when both of them were restrained? He could budge neither his arms nor his legs, that proves his upper body and lower body are similar. He was only able to budge after freeing himself of two Gekko, but when Gekko are giant robots that likely weigh between 60-100 tons in their own right, and yet they have the strength to haul their own weight MILES away in a single jump, being unable to overpower four of them simultaneously is not a low showing either way. It doesn't stop Raiden from being a 100 tonner, especially when he's been able to overpower as many as two Gekkos simultaneously. Not just with his legs when he was breakdancing, but with his arms as well.

There, that proves that Raiden's upper body is well within the 100 ton range. Again, Gekko's easily weigh anywhere between 60-100 tons, since regular tanks can weigh in between there. Yet that's not the important part; Gekkos themselves are powerful enough to leap over buildings and travel miles in a single jump, despite their own weight. Gekkos are hundred tonners and Raiden is stronger than Gekkos. Lower or upper body, Raiden is a 100 tonner regardless. The fact that holding back Outer Haven was in equal parts and effort of his legs, as well as his back, supports this. Nine years previously we had Gray Fox, the original Cyborg Ninja, but his suit was just a prototype. Yet he held up Metal Gear REX with one arm, REX weighing a little over 500 tons. Raiden's chassis was upgraded from Fox's. There can be no doubt that Raiden is well within the 100 ton range, that goes for both upper and lower body. And really in this scenario, the difference between a 500 tonner, or a multithousand tonner, is just splitting hairs. Vamp is going against a couple of street levelers so the difference doesn't matter, his strength edge is the same either way.

I think that's a pretty weak way to try and argue against the scene of Raiden stomping on Vamp's chest. He was clearly putting his foot down, there would be literally no point in Jack making extra sure that he only stabs Vamp and doesn't actually put any force into it, I mean don't you think the idea that Raiden despises Vamp and wants him dead more than anything else in the world, and actually COULD have completely crushed Vamp at any moment, but was just too obsessed with "finesse" to realize it, is a bit silly? Not to mention the fact that Jack delivers a strong kick to Vamp's face at the end, which finally succeeds in knocking Vamp back, but that's all, no damage and Vamp was able to get back on balance pretty easily. Clearly, Vamp is just as strong as Raiden, lower or upper body.

@nickzambuto:

But you can't deny that Raiden is a 100 tonner.

Revengeance Raiden might be a class 100...MGS 4...not sure I buy it.

How does getting restrained by Gekko speak ill of his upper body, but not the same of his lower body when both of them were restrained?

He didn't try to pull with his lower body in the scene for whatever reason, he only tried with the upper, which was shown. So call it CIS, PIS, whatever you like, but he didn't bother trying anything with his lower body until Snake severed the cable.

It doesn't stop Raiden from being a 100 tonner, especially when he's been able to overpower as many as two Gekkos simultaneously.

They have a heavier and somewhat unbalanced looking upper portion to their lower half, though able to maintain good balance for the most...except when Raiden wraps the cable around the legs of one and pulls, disrupting their center of gravity and tripping them up, causing one to fall on the other...

He didn't exactly pit his strength against theirs in that scene...he used a cable, wrapped it around one gekko's legs, and tripped it up (with it falling into the other one)...and with what is sitting on top of those two legs, that doesn't really qualify as a class 100 feat...he tripped them up and disrupted their center of gravity. Still impressive, but not class 100.

Gekkos themselves are powerful enough to leap over buildings and travel miles in a single jump, despite their own weight.

And just how heavy are the upper portions of their bodies? I have seen you state their bodies probably weigh in the 100 ton range? So what do we have to back this up? There are all sorts of light weight materials that could be put in an armored frame, so I have to question where this idea that they are around or over 100 tons in weight comes from? Just based on looks, or is there some actual, credible source for this?

They have strong leg muscles...hell, crickets and frogs can make some insane leaps for their size, and they aren't exactly classified as powerhouses...

The fact that holding back Outer Haven was in equal parts and effort of his legs, as well as his back, supports this.

And we have discussed this to death...it was an awesome, heroic desperation feat...plus the fact Outer Haven was also running into a concrete looking dock as well probably also helped somewhat...

Yet he held up Metal Gear REX with one arm, REX weighing a little over 500 tons.

And I would hazard to guess that he would not have had much issue with the gekko's cables on his arms...

Raiden's chassis was upgraded from Fox's.

Then they should have upgraded his upper body as well to match...which from what I have seen, his upper body strength does not match up to Fox's...at least not until later games.

There can be no doubt that Raiden is well within the 100 ton range, that goes for both upper and lower body.

There is plenty of doubt...hence the discussion.

Vamp is going against a couple of street levelers so the difference doesn't matter, his strength edge is the same either way.

Not so sure it is as much of an edge as you are trying to make it out to be...

I think that's a pretty weak way to try and argue against the scene of Raiden stomping on Vamp's chest. He was clearly putting his foot down, there would be literally no point in Jack making extra sure that he only stabs Vamp and doesn't actually put any force into it, I mean don't you think the idea that Raiden despises Vamp and wants him dead more than anything else in the world, and actually COULD have completely crushed Vamp at any moment, but was just too obsessed with "finesse" to realize it, is a bit silly? Not to mention the fact that Jack delivers a strong kick to Vamp's face at the end, which finally succeeds in knocking Vamp back, but that's all, no damage and Vamp was able to get back on balance pretty easily. Clearly, Vamp is just as strong as Raiden, lower or upper body.

I think for one, I am not the only one that saw the scene that way, and Raiden clearly wasn't stomping on him, trying to smash Vamp into the ground...especially evidenced by the fact that we can very clearly see him using the motion to stab Vamp...so yes, he was actively trying to kill the man he hated most in the world, but wasn't going about it in a manner to mush him into paste. Again, you are overselling the feat, but I don't mind the idea that Vamp is a physical match Raiden...I just don't buy into this multi-thousand tonner nor class 100 business.

We have several feats where upper body strength has not matched up to the hype, we have questionable weight values being thrown out without seeing much to back them up, then we have one high end feat we are trying to base it all on, that doesn't exactly match up with average performance levels...but hell, guess we can classify a lot of characters as double, triple, quadruple and so on times stronger than their average strength levels based on one high end feat.

Sounds legit to me.

@wyldsong: Sorry for the late response. I had an entire post typed out but then lost it when I tried to submit.

Basically I see what you mean but I still don't agree. In order for me to take seriously an idea as obscure, and significant as Raiden's cyborg ninja chassis being dozens of times stronger in the lower body than in the upper, and overall actually being weaker than the prototype skeleton used by Gray Fox nine years prior, it would need to be supported by at least some degree of implication in the actual story itself. Something to let us know that the concept you are bringing up, was actually something Hideo Kojima had in mind when he was creating these characters. Without that, than it's nothing more than a theory. A cool thing to hypothesize about among the fandom on message boards, but nothing more than a theory, and when it comes to the battle board we need to go strictly by facts.

In this case, it would probably be better to take things at face value, rather than get super hyper specific and nitpicky as you are. Basically if you've played the game then you would have experienced for yourself, Raiden was portrayed as having superhuman strength, and it's merely a coincidence that most of his feats involved a lot of legwork. There was nothing specifically to imply that his arms were actually any weaker.

There are no inconsistencies in his strength either. Let's go back to the big one; being restrained by Gekko. I don't see what the big deal is, since it's not like Gekko were ever portrayed as being weak, four of them restraining Raiden can be nothing more than a feat for them, not anything against Raiden. The logic you are using is tantamount to me bringing up the fact that Black Panther was defeated by this one guy once so obviously Vamp can beat him too. Like, what? How does that prove Vamp can beat Black Panther just because Black Panther lost once? What you mean because he isn't entirely invincible that means he might as well be defeated by anybody? That's a paradox, and you're applying the same logic to Raiden.

As for the knives, again that was his own strength working against his own durability. The knives were impaled into Raiden's back, and it was his own super-durability that kept them clenched in there. The exact same thing happened to Snake earlier in the game, he was stabbed and was unable to remove the knife because his own pecs were clenching it. That's how getting stabbed works, it's not an unrealistic thing. Raiden couldn't simply snap the knives either because they were HF.

The idea of Raiden only tripping the Gekkos because they look off balance is just sounding desperate to me. Gekkos were never portrayed as having any imbalance, that's literally an idea that you're making up. Again, cool theory to discuss on message boards, but not a fact in-lore. Raiden overpowered two Gekkos and knocked them to the ground, it's as simple as that. It's not like the snare was wrapped around the very bottom of their legs, Raiden overpowered them fair and square.

Not good enough? Take a look at Raiden's fight with Vamp again, early on he yanks a Gekko down with just his arms once again. It's all completely consistent. There is nothing to point towards Raiden having weak arms. Raiden is a 100 tonner and so is Vamp and since Black Panther is so massively outclassed in speed and martial arts skill already, this fight is a landslide victory.

@nickzambuto:

Black Panther is so massively outclassed in speed and martial arts skill already,

You haven't really justified this.

True, the discussion so far has been all about strength. But if we change topics I'd be glad to explain why I think that way. That comment was just an aside.

@nickzambuto: Right. Well the main reason Vamp would be massively above Black Panther I assume would be him stalemating Raiden who was too fast for Snake to see. The problem with this is that Vamp himself lost to Snake, so either Vamp could've blitzed Snake whenever he pleased and chose not to or more likely his muscle reading played a part against Raiden, so his reaction speed would have nothing to do with his combat speed and therefore he can at best avoid a lot of Black Panther's blows, but given that Black Panther is in a while different league of skill than Raiden from what I've seen that won't last him forever.

Regarding Grey Fox, it's been pointed out in other threads that he lacks speed showings distinctly above Thor, who people in Black Panther's tier can dance around.

Skill wise, Vamp having a bunch of powers because of skill doesn't actuslly lead to the conclusion of him being a proficient martial artist which is what really matters. Learning to use shadows as a weapon isn't really the same as learning to fight. Grey Fox I'm pretty sure you yourself have admitted doesn't have enough screen time to say he's anywhere near as skilled as someone like Iron Fist who Black Panther has fought evenly with. I would also say for all his accolades he lacks conclusive skill showings to contend with Black Panther, especially considering he lost to Snake despite a large stat advantage and from an overall tiering perspective I find Black Panther to be quite a bit out of Snake's league.

Also, this isn't entirely related but you keep citing Iron Fist's powers as a result of marital skill but the truth is he killed a dragon and ripped out its Ki to gain power so it's not really a product of his own skill. Just pointing that out.

Black Panther is all about skill. He is the definition of skill.

Now, I'm not a huge Metal Gear Solid fan, BUT I have played Metal Gear Solid 1, 2, and 4 in the past (I've sorta played through 3, and I haven't touched the PSP stuff); now, I do agree that Grey Fox and Vamp are quite impressive, sure, but the character descriptions here in this thread are blown way out of proportion. I do agree that Grey Fox's strength is way up there (as he was able to hold Metal Gear Rex's leg, but I don't think it's THAT high, but I haven't read the comics nor have I played the old games, though, so I might be wrong). Anyway, the Marvel team should take this as Black Panther's tech is way too much (his vibranium suit has taken hits from Namor, and shrugged off much worse), and fighting characters with incredible healing factors and speed is a quite familiar ground for BP. Gorgon's stone stare, fighting skills, and healing factor are the icing on the cake.

MGS characters are highly overrated, and that's a fact!

OMG yes it's true

Vamps shadow binding technique isn't a martial arts. Its a form of hypnotism based on Vamps voice, movements, and manipulating the reflection off his blade.

I've heard it cited as a product of skill. The point is powers like that don't translate into combat skill.

Well unless I am missing something and hypnotism is a form of martial arts than it isn't a showing of Vamp's martial arts prowess but a showing of his hypnotism.

The point was more about overall skill than martial arts. It's just an example anyway. A better one would probably be Vamp's strength.

@highaccuser: Well I was just saying this in general.

Fair enough.

Instead of viewing Vamp's defeat at Snake's hands as evidence for Vamp being incompetent, it would make a lot more sense to look at all of Vamp's feats as a whole in order to gauge the extent of his abilities, and then view Snake defeating him as a feat for Snake. You're logic is basically a big ring-around-the-rosy specifically tailored toward making the non-comic book characters look as bad as possible, you say that Vamp and Fox lost to Snake and Snake doesn't have the feats to fight Black Panther, yet you're ignoring the fact that defeating Vamp and Gray Fox ARE Snake's feats. Those are his exact abilities, he is able to fight and defeat opponents as powerful as Vamp and Gray Fox are, by saying Black Panther would defeat Snake you are automatically saying that he too would be able to defeat Vamp and Gray Fox, yet your argument to prove how Black Panther would compensate for their great power is that Snake beat them so Panther would too. Y'see what I mean? You're line of thinking makes no sense, it would be infinitely more simple for you to simply admit to the idea that Snake would beat Black Panther as well, considering he regularly faces far more overwhelming odds and defeats far more powerful characters than Black Panther does on a regular basis, the characters in this thread, Vamp and Gray Fox, just being two examples among many.

Now the reason for Vamp being a more dangerous fighter than Black Panther is simple. Whatever you want to talk about, actual combat showings or just martial arts knowledge, Vamp is very clearly portrayed as being on a higher level than a character like Black Panther. Vamp is one of those characters who is portrayed as being such an advanced martial artist, that he is able to develop supernatural powers based off of his mastery. That is a wall Black Panther has not cracked, he is still very much a human fighter. Now Snake is unique in that normally, I would rank supernatural martial artists as automatically above more grounded martial artists, as the fact of the matter is characters like that have clearly mastered martial arts to a higher extent. That is why I say Goku is the best martial artist in fiction (or I guess if you want to be specific, Whis is now) and he's followed by guys like Karate Kid, Iron Fist, and Vamp, all of whom are automatically above the likes of Batman and such. This is consistent in Marvel and DC, the characters that I mentioned are top tiers in martial arts in their own universes.

Metal Gear on the other hand is unique in that Solid Snake is still a human too, yet he was able to beat Vamp. However this is very much the exception, and not the rule; from the beginning the whole idea with Solid Snake was that he is the greatest soldier of the 21st century, and he is so highly trained and skilled that he is able to defeat these supernatural foes, despite being so outclassed on paper. Vamp is a high-tier in MGS, but it's evident that Snake's efficient and powerful CQC style coupled with his sheer fighting instincts were enough to outfight him. I just wanted to clarify that in case you thought I was being inconsistent. However once again, this doesn't mean Black Panther can do the same, Black Panther is not Snake.

Martial arts knowledge

Personally I prefer actual combat abilities over technical knowledge, but I know most comic book fans like their pressure point showings. Alright, whatever. Black Panther knows like, all the pressure points, that's probably why you hold him in such a high esteem as a martial artist right? Pressure points are pretty advanced techniques after all.

Well here are some objective statements; attacking a pressure point is nowhere near as advanced as reading the minute muscle movements of the human body in order to predict their exact actions, well in advance. The precision to strike a pressure point, is literally nothing to the precision Vamp employs when Shadow Binding, where he somehow hypnotizes his opponent in the middle of battle, by manipulating the exact, subtle movements of his own body in conjunction with the light reflected off his blade, while simultaneously dodging and deflecting assault rifle bullets without breaking the technique. The knowledge of where a pressure point that can put someone to sleep is located, isn't even worth mentioning, when Vamp is such a supernatural martial artist that he is able to somehow meditate over the surface of a pool of water and magically remain afloat.

As a martial artist, Vamp is clearly on a higher tier than Black Panther.

Combat showings

Black Panther has never, will never, and could never battle a Cyborg Ninja using nothing more than knives. This one is self explanatory, Raiden is out of Black Panther's league. Just watch these fight scenes and if you try to say Black Panther can fight like that too, then I don't think there's anything left to discuss.

Black Panther couldn't even beat Solidus. Solidus wore an exoskeleton that put him on Cyborg Ninja levels, and Black Panther has enough trouble with basic superhumans like Killmonger and M'Baku. Raiden beat Solidus, who was Cyborg Ninja level, as a regular human through sheer swordsman skill. So then we later have Raiden who becomes a Cyborg Ninja HIMSELF and the most powerful one yet, on top of his great skills, and Vamp is the guy who still matches him. In their second fight Vamp actually won. He had Jack outskilled fair and square, Jack ended up tricking Vamp in order to win. This is because, although Raiden is a masterful combatant, his sheer martial arts skill still isn't able to take on a supernatural fighter like Vamp.

Oh and before I forget, Vamp's muscle reading doesn't work if you don't have muscles... Raiden was a Cyborg. Meaning he defeated him through sheer skill, without the aid of a technique that would multiply the efficiency of a fighter.

Regarding Grey Fox, it's been pointed out in other threads that he lacks speed showings distinctly above Thor, who people in Black Panther's tier can dance around.

That's a pretty weird comparison to make. Well it's completely misleading anyway. "People in Black Panther's tier." Okay, anything Black Panther himself has actually done? Because Spider-Man is still a LOT faster than Black Panther, doesn't matter that Black Panther can keep up with him, there's an infinite amount of other factors that go into it. And Spider-Man blitzing Erik Masterson, who is way weaker than the real Thor, isn't very impressive anyway. Hell, when the real Thor came back, he danced around Erik as well!

All that said I would love to see some speed feats from Thor that are on par with Gray Fox. Frank was speedblitzing whole groups of armed and experienced, full-grown soldiers back when he was just a child. As a teenager he was already superhumanly quick and skilled enough that Big Boss was unable to tag him with gunfire. Big Boss, the man who can shoot speedsters and gave Revolver Ocelot advice on how to shoot. Gray Fox wasn't tagged by him. Black Panther can't dodge gunfire from master marksman, Frank already had superhuman speed when he was a teenager. Then as a Cyborg he was regularly moving at imperceptible speeds. Yeah I'm doubting whether Black Panther can even keep up with this guy, Gorgon is a better match for Frank.

Also, this isn't entirely related but you keep citing Iron Fist's powers as a result of marital skill but the truth is he killed a dragon and ripped out its Ki to gain power so it's not really a product of his own skill. Just pointing that out.

I see. I've been mislead then, I'm sure we both know how most Comic Vine users couldn't care less about posting out of context scans.

Stop saying that, it isn't true!!! Shadow Binding is NOT A SUPER POWER. It is a TECHNIQUE that involves VERY precarious movements and timing and superhuman precision.

Raiden: You can't move once his knife nails your shadow!
Snake: Shadow-binding? Are we talking about some kind of Ninjutsu?
Otacon: I don't think so. It's probably some form of hypnotism.
Raiden: Hypnotism?
Otacon: I'm guessing it's the power of suggestion augmented by his speech and movements, coupled with the manipulation of the light reflecting off the blade of his knife...
Raiden: What should I do?
Otacon: I can't think of any way to break his spell on such a short notice. The easiest thing to do is to make sure his knife doesn't hit your shadow.
Snake: Raiden, if his knife nails your shadow, you won't be able to move for a while. If this happens, your only option is to rapidly press a button and move the left analog stick around to free yourself from his spell.

Not. A. Super. Power. A technique. There's no magic involved, nothing a normal person couldn't do so long as they actually know how to and are skilled enough to pull it off. All about the technique.

TECHNIQUE

@nickzambuto: Your own quote pretty much confirms it isn't a form of martial arts. Snake asked if it was ninjutsu and Otacon said it was a form of hypnotism. Pretty much everything involves technique, just because there is technique involved doesn't make it a form of martial arts. I agree its a skill but its not a martial arts skill. I can also agree it requires impressive levels of accuracy.

I guess this is mostly an argument of schematics but what I am saying is that hypnotism=//=martial arts not hypnotism=no technique. Hypnotism is a skill in the same vain that being able to throw a basket ball is a skill, and it requires technique in the same way painting requires technique.

All that said I would love to see some speed feats from Thor that are on par with Gray Fox. Frank was speedblitzing whole groups of armed and experienced, full-grown soldiers back when he was just a child. As a teenager he was already superhumanly quick and skilled enough that Big Boss was unable to tag him with gunfire. Big Boss, the man who can shoot speedsters and gave Revolver Ocelot advice on how to shoot. Gray Fox wasn't tagged by him. Black Panther can't dodge gunfire from master marksman, Frank already had superhuman speed when he was a teenager. Then as a Cyborg he was regularly moving at imperceptible speeds. Yeah I'm doubting whether Black Panther can even keep up with this guy, Gorgon is a better match for Frank.

Thor has deflected multiple machine gunfire from multiple different marksmen all at once, has moved faster than human eyes can track/invisble speeds on at least 3 occasions I can think of, has swatted bricks tossed out of the air by gladiator, has blocked silver surfers cosmic energy blasts with his hammer, has beaten armed thugs alongside captain america while depowered, catches tank shells, Hela couldn't lay a finger on him and commented that thors speed was beyond comprehension, etc.

As for blocking bullets from a skilled marksmen speed doesn't have anything to do with that. Its pretty much all about anticipation. A skilled marksmen cannot make a bullet move faster they can only trick the person that is dodging the gunfire. I also find your generalization that "black panther can't dodge gunfire from a master marksmen" to be silly. The guy was dodging attacks from Typhoid Mary and Lady Bullseye at the same time without his enhancements, while carrying a woman on his back. Typhoid Mary alone has tagged spider-man. Regardless Black Panther has one upped this feat. He blocked Proxima midnights staff very recently. Proxima Midnights staff is basically a light speed projectile that automatically follows its target once it is thrown, and proxima midnight used it to tag spectrum, while she was in her light form. Literally he blocked a light speed projectile (arguably faster than light considering it caught up to Spectrum in her light form) from someone who tagged a light speed target. And Proxima Midnight isn't slow either. She has combat speed which let her dance around hulk during his indestructible era where hulk was pretty much always portrayed as a blur of motion. Admittedly black panther used a shield to block her attack but considering who Proxima midnight has tagged with her staff and the weapons capabilities, I would say the level of timing and anticipation is above what Null needs to block bullets from big boss.

So yes black panther is capable of blocking shots from a master marksmen. You want to argue that metal gear characters win here, thats fine. You know my view on Gray Fox which is why I am trying to stay out of this thread. I don't really want to do a debate about him vs one of my favourite characters, I'm kind of waiting until something happens like gray fox gets put against someone like shang chi or someone else I am not known to debate for. I just wanted to say that Black Panther can deal with good marksmen. I am willing to debate thor being as fast or comparable to Gray Fox however. But I would rather not compare feats between gray fox and black panther.

Also for the record I would argue Eric Masterson is a skilled fighter in his own right. He isn't really a chump. He's just not as good as the real thor.