GoT: Jon Snow vs Jorah Mormont

Jon Snow

vs

Jorah Mormont

Rules

• TV versions
• In character, morals on
• Standard gear (melee weapons only)
• Fight to the death

Bronn.

Standard gear? Bronn puts an arrow in him.

Forgot about that.. melee weapons only.

TV Versions, it's a slaughter in Bronn's favor. Book version, Jon puts up a fight before he dies.

The TV show does Jon no justice IMO.

@cregan_stark: Prolly overestimated Jon slightly here. I just couldn't think of a decent match for him. Maybe Jorah? I'm gonna put in Jorah.

@i_like_swords: book versions or tv versions?

Book or TV I back Jorah, Jon shows great promise and when Jon is Jorah's age he will undoubtedly surpass him, but as of now I back Jorah.

@cregan_stark: TV versions. Always assume TV versions for me. I don't know if I'll ever read the books.

@rogueshadow: I think book Jon vs. Jorah could be a hell of a fight. Of course when Jon gets older he will easily surpass Jorah, Jon at roughly 16 has taken on some heavy hitters who are beyond Jorah. All be it, he might not of won them all but he held his own for the most part.

We've agreed in the past that Mance kicking his ass may or may not have been due to the enchantments.

@i_like_swords: I'll take TV Jorah. By the way, you should really check out the books if you enjoy the show, the books are much better IMO.

@cregan_stark: For noteworthy combatants he's only really fought Mance Rayder, which was a good feat as I have said before when you consider that the glamour made his reach seem considerably shorter than it was. Qhorin Halfhand obviously doesn't count. I'd still back Jorah, I'd back Jorah against a 16 year old Jaime too. Plus, Jorah seems capable of upping his game to the big leagues when he is properly motivated. Eventually Jon will be a high tier fighter, I don't know if he'll ever hit the legendary levels of Aemon, Jaime, Dayne etc

@rogueshadow: we are pretty much in agreement here. I'd put a Iron Emmett up there for Jon feats though.

Also I'm not sure if go as far as to say Jorah could take a 16 year old Jaime as he was able to hold off the Smiling Knight for a short battle which is (from my understanding) extremely impressive.

I agree though that Jon probably won't reach a level of someone like Jaime, I do however think the level of a Garlan (assuming he is as good as they say) could be attainable.

@cregan_stark: If I remember correctly, it was while the Smiling Knight was fighting multiple Kingsguard and Jamie only parry one of his blocks, then he challengd Dayne to single combat and there was the awesome, 'then you shall have it, ser' line.

In my opinion, a 16 year old, even a prodigy who has never fought in a true battle would die horribly against a 45 year old highly skilled swordsman. I'd put Jorah at the bottom end of the second tier to the top end of the third just for reference, if he's fighting for a maiden fair I think he can leap up to at least mid-tier, as shown when he did so in jousting against Jaime Lannister.

TV Jon should definitely lose, I just can't picture Jorah losing to Karl Tanner from f*ckin' gin alley.

I hope we get to see some flashbacks of the Rebellion, I always picture Benedict Cumberbatch as Arthur Dayne.

@rogueshadow: I can agree with that.

I think it's a damn shame with the TV show has done with guys like Jaime, Jon and others.

A rebellion show would be epic. I've always thought that James Purefoy should be on GoT. He might be a perfect Brandon Stark.

@cregan_stark: I could picture James Purefoy as the crow's eye personally, Ray Stevenson as Victarion. Did you see the casting leak?

I don't feel like they've really been nerfed in showings [aside from Jon, Jon should not have lost to Karl] but some of the great deeds and other characters commenting on them has reduced their feats considerably. It annoys me how they never make clear that Jaime literally cut his way through Robb's army and Vanguard at the whispering wood and damn near gets to Robb by himself, that's genuinely insane, how is that even possible? ASOIAF is a bit more high fantasy than some think.

@rogueshadow: I didn't see the casting leak but Ray Stevenson as Victorian is freaking a dream come true. If that happened that is.

I believe Jaime was nerfed. In the books you get the feeling that he's basically untouchable but outside of the first season (excluding that abomination of a fight with Ned), he looks vulnerable. In the books even starved and shackled, he was more than a match for Brienne.

@cregan_stark: Oh no, no, no, no, no. That was very poorly worded on my part, the casting leak wasn't connected to the previous statement, they are just my opinions. There was a leak about their casting call with Doran, Areo Hotah and the sand snakes. People are worrying about the Grejoys and Arianne, I think they've already been cast.

I'd like to see Eliza Gonzalez as Arianne:

I get what you mean about Jaime.

@rogueshadow: I like where they are going with the Martels, I always pictured them as Latin.

Areo Hotah should be interesting, I hope they cast someone very large and black.

@cregan_stark: It's really weird, I always pictured him as white, but many picture him as black and that is what the showrunners have categorically stated that they want. I'd like Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje as Areo, I think he's only about 6ft 2" [still fairly tall] but he always looks bigger when he's on screen.

@rogueshadow: he would be a very good Areo, just have him grow a beard and it would be perfect. I think he's too big of a name though

@cregan_stark: He does pop up in a lot of big projects, but he's usually a secondary character, I could see him doing it. But it's definitely a possibility that he's too big and his schedule will just be too full. I'm sure that the'll find somebody great.

Jorah via experience. There are a lot of tricks regarding swordplay that Jon would know nothing about.

@rogueshadow: I agree, I've liked many of their new castings, I didn't like some of the old ones though. I also HATE their choice for Bronze Yohn.

@cregan_stark: Wuuut? He was great. Still waiting for the mention of his bronze armour that makes him indestructible. Though I didn't buy that he could outfight Ned Stark, or even Rodrik.

@rogueshadow: I got the impression that he was very impressive even for an old man. The guy they picked was just an old fat guy, I didn't look at him and think "this guy could dominate Ned and Rodrik at the same time".

@rogueshadow: My memory might be a bit hazy but doesn't TV Jon have better feats that TV Jorah? I can't remember any notable fight from him. Book I agree.

jorah gets friendzoned.

bump

Mormont.

Jon Snow knows nothing... except how to win this fight!

Jon Snow uses "The Lord's Kiss" and wins via technical knock out.

Jorah has been more impressive to me.

Both of these guys have piled on the feats since this thread.

Jorah has been in several fights and looked very good. His most recent showing was clearing the arena of gladiators.

Jon's more recent feats have been arguably more impressive though. He cut through the wildling army and defeated the Magnar of Thenn in single combat, defeating the Magnar is in my opinion more impressive than Jorah beating the blood rider because Jorah had the advantage of armor which Jon had no such advantages.

Jon also led the charge against the army of the dead as they were slaughtering Wildlings. He then defeated a White Walker in single combat which is VERY impressive considering the new Magnar of Thenn only lasted about 4 seconds.

I picked Jorah last year but things might be shifting to Jon based on feats.

@princearagorn1: @rogueshadow: thoughts?

He then defeated a White Walker in single combat which is VERY impressive considering the new Magnar of Thenn only lasted about 4 seconds.

circumstantial. the thenn got his weapon smashed in the first clash

jorah

Probably Jorah but Jon could pull out a win.

Don't think Jon's White Walker fight should be used as a feat. The WW got cocky ala Oberyn Martell, he could've finished him at anytime but instead chose to toy with Jon.

I think Jon has more impressive showings of fighting multiple enemies, and he killed the white walker (who was superhuman and very skilled, the way he took out that Thenn the white walker showed great speed and skill.)

I'd say last nights episode shows that Jon could beat him, Jorah was getting his butt handed to him by fodder.

Not even close to circumstantial, the white walker avoided more than one of the Thenn's attacks effortlessly, he was just better, faster and more skilled along with having a weapon which could blow the Thenn's weapon to bits in a clash. I think they were pretty clear in showing that the white walker was far superior to the Thenn, the win wasn't just because of the weaponry.

Not necessarily toy, every time the walker hit him he still hurt Jon and concussed him yet he was still able to pull out the win after not being able to stand seconds earlier. The situation made it look like that but truthfully I think Jon could have pulled out the win if he had just used his sword from the get go, he did it while concussed after taking some punishment from a superhuman white walker. Sure the white walker could have finished him in the house but Jon wasn't even trying to fight (when he did try and fight the first time he didn't have proper weaponry) if he just fought with his own sword from the get go he could have taken out the white walker.

I still give it to Jorah, his skill combined with superior experience will win the day. Jon hasn't flat out beaten a really good character yet, he lost to Styr and resorted to the hammer, he lost to Karl, he beat the White Walker in a wtf moment. Jorah's beaten some of the best pit fighters in Essos, Qotho and took on a few waves of the Yunkish soldiers.

Combined with the general feel I get from the way the show presents them, I feel like Jorah is written as being on a level with Tormund, a couple of tiers above Jon. Jon's main advantage is Longclaw but I don't think he'll win this.

he lost to Styr and resorted to the hammer

Lost? They were both going at it evenly and then Styr disarmed Jon purely because he had an axe (edge of the axe caught his sword), then Jon disarmed him with a chain and he punched Styr, Styr got a few hits in and then threw Jon, and then of course Jon killed him using his surroundings (a hammer.) Jon won, the fight was very even, the only edge styr had was landing 2-3 more strikes than Jon but Jon evens that out because he killed him lol.

He really didn't lose to Styr. If he lost that fight then Jorah lost two fights last night, the black slave he killed had the edge their entire fight until Jorah used his secondary weapon (the other guy didn't have one) the slave landed strikes and struck him with his axe before Jorah killed him, I guess Jorah lost considering he resorted to an unfair secondary weapon. He was on the ground waiting to die by the hand of one guy, until he was saved by him being stabbed in the back.

The slaves last night, did they even have names? Were they known fighters, I can't recall.... they were lighting Jorah's ass up though.

he lost to Karl,

Stylistically that was a very bad match up. Karl was a dirty fighter and he was hard to fight with a lone sword because of his dual knives, along with it being in a bad setting for Jon (took place inside a cramped hut) and he even spat in jon's eyes at one point.

he beat the White Walker in a wtf moment.

Sure the white walker toyed with him but Jon wasn't looking to fight and he didn't have the proper weaponry (when he used a sword it got crushed) but he ended up beating that white walker while concussed as soon as he had the proper weaponry, it's a legit win.

Jon has some impressive showings, he killed 6 wildlings in a row (probably even more than that off screen) and he took on two Thenn's at the same time and killed a 3rd Thenn right after that.

Styr flat out beat him, the axe caught his sword because he wanted to disarm him. He won the fight. Jon spat in his eye and hit him around the head with a hammer after getting tossed around.

No he really didn't flat out beat him, if he "flat out beat him" he wouldn't be dead right now. The fight was really even and ultimately Jon won, I don't know how you think it was so decisive in Styr's favor. Sure the axe caught his sword because he wanted to disarm him, but he was only able to do so because it was an axe, the axe is just a bad weapon to clash with because the sword can get caught. And Jon used his surroundings right after and disarmed Styr himself. Styr only got a few more hits in then Jon did, and ultimately Jon used his wits and surroundings to beat Styr, he won... styr didn't.

Except the knife will be part of his standard gear, Jon has only Longclaw, so yes, Jorah still won that fight, Jon had to seek external weaponry.

Styr bashed Jon's head off of an anvil, EXTERNAL WEAPONRY, FOUL! External weaponry doesn't mean he lost a fight he won, it just means he isn't a dumbarse for not using his surroundings. You can't really prove Jon would have lost without the weaponry, sure he was losing but he has shown to come back from worse (he was in a worse state after he took those hits from that white talker, yet he came back and won.)

You forget to mention the second instance of Jorah losing, i'll give you the first being a win ( even though he had an unfair advantage and was losing but the second fight he clearly lost and got saved by someone else.)

The knife isn't standard gear, is it? That was the very first time I saw him with it and that was under specific circumstances, he normally just has a sword I think.

Best pitfighters in the best pit in Essos + good choreography. They don't need names.

Ah okay, forgot about that whole part. Either way there is no telling just how good being the best of slave pit fighters makes you, of course it is better than the average fighter but still they're no Jon snow.

So Karl spitting in somebody's eyes is unfair but Jon doing it isn't? You are making excuses for Jon, he lost the fight to Karl because Karl was better than him. Karl was beating him even without the spit in the eyes, Karl was actually a really good fighter.

Thought you might say something like this. You do realize this fight is vs Jorah, right? I am comparing the loss to what he will be facing, and with Jorah he is getting a knight who fights clean and doesn't spit in peoples faces. Jon spitting in someone's eyes is irrelevant, I am comparing the fight with Karl to the fight at hand. Karl was beating him, and there is no shame in that. Karl is a good fighter, he was a paid assassin (I think he said he was) and he is an all around bad match up for Jon. They were in a tight space and knives are superior to swords in close quarters, along with that he had two of them and was able to parry and use the other knife to cut Jon (which is what he did.)

The White Walker was astounded and in shock, I'm personally not buying it as legit.

And Jon couldn't stand moments earlier, the win is legit.

Jorah killed pitfighters and wave after wave of Yunkish soldiers with just two allies.

I still find beating Qotho, one of the top 4 fighters of 100,000 men is more impressive than anything Jon has accomplished.

I'd say fighting styles and armor had a huge part in Jorah getting that win over Qotho. Qotho cut him and knocked him down, but in the end he was defeated by the armor more than Jorah himself, he isn't used to fighting an armored man such as Jorah and the armor gave him a huge advantage. Jon won't be so foolish, he has the proper weaponry and he knows how to take on armored foes.

Sure it's a good win, but it's weighed down heavily by what I state above.

Jon's win over the white walker i'd place as at least even or better, and Jorah may have taken on some Yunkish soldiers with two allies but by himself Jon killed 6 wildlings in rapid succession and then he took on two Thenn's at the same time (had help with one after defending against their attacks, and then he killed one of the Thenn's he was fighting and right after he took out another.)

@rogueshadow

The axe is also heavy and slow, both weapons have disadvantages, Styr won the fight, he disarmed him and threw him around before Jon spat in his eye and grabbed a hammer. Obviously Styr lost, but not on account of Jon's superiority.

Are you purposefully ignoring anything good Jon did in the fight? Jon disarmed him as well, Styr in no way won the fight. It was even and Jon ended up pulling out the win by any means necessary (it appears Jon nowadays is willing to fight dirty when he needs to, this is something Jorah himself hasn't shown to do.)

The axe is of course the slower and heavier weapon, they ended up tying up though and of course that's how Jon got disarmed... it wasn't through Styr being a superior fighter, the weapons they chose had something to do with it and Jon of course disarmed him as well.

Smashing somebody's head off something really does not qualify as external weaponry.

Is it a weapon of Styr's? Nope. Did he use it to hurt Jon? Yep. It's external and he used it to injure Jon, unfair! Disqualification! I'm mostly mocking you btw :P

He still beat one of the best pitfighers in Meereen, that other guy was better than him, but that doesn't make it a low feat, these are some of the best fighters in the world, it's unfair to say that because they aren't named they are

I'm just saying, he has lost as well to some less than savory opponents. You're reaching a tad when you say they're the best fighters in the world lol, maybe some of the best pit fighters but they aren't some of the best fighters in the world out of all the Dothraki, Knights, skilled wildlings, Thenn's and other insane warriors in Westeros. They're nameless, I would say nameless Dothraki would take them out based off of what has been said about their insane skill and how their society works (fight or die.)

He pulled it out on the fly so we can assume it's standard gear. He's never had to use it before.

He's never had it, as shown in his first pit fight they give out the equipment... it's not standard for him and he left the knife on the battle field afterwards. That was a one time thing and it is in no way standard gear.

Except Jorah spent 5 years in Essos as a sellsword, he knows about fighting dirty. The space wasn't that tight, watch it back, Craster's is fairly spacious. To the same degree, losing to one of the best fighters in Essos vs the best cuththroat in Fleabottom, it doesn't really compare. Jorah can take down faster opponents as he's shown multiple times, whereas Jon can't.

Eh, I can I can concede to him maybe fighting dirty if he had to, but being a sellsword doesn't prove that... however his first slave gladiator fights do considering he fought a tad dirty then (tore a guys helmet off and bashed him in the head with it.) The space was pretty tight, at least for a swordsman it isn't proper space. Even then the fight was pretty even, Karl got a stab in and Jon hit him with the butt of his sword, that was the only offense until he spit in Jon's face (which I don't see Jorah doing.) The best cutthroat in fleabottom vs an unnamed slave pit fighter, I think they compare pretty decently actually especially considering the cutthroat being a bad match for Jon and employing tactics with weapons he isn't used to (whereas Jorah was facing people employing tactics with weapons he is very familiar with.)

By faster opponents do you mean the Dothraki? Whom was using his speed and embarrassing him and could have beheaded Jorah at the very start of the fight? (He nicked jorah's face, he toyed with him and ultimately lost due to the armor and the difference in fighting style, he could have beheaded him though, but he decided to play with him.)

I'd say the white walker is an impressive showing of taking on a fast opponent, the white walker showed to be superhuman along with being very fast and skilled (dodging the Thenn's attacks.)

Still not buying the win, they are both in shock and Jon just manages to swipe the blade and hit him, it's a very frantic setup, not saying it's unimpressive, but yeah, not that impressive, and all that White Walker had done is beat a Thenn of unknown skill, he was obviously weaker than the other two in Castle Black who were ahead of him and I'm not sure how many Thenns there are to be honest, I don't think more than about 1,000.

That Thenn had to be skilled, he was apart of the meeting with the elders, he is an elder so he did something to get their respect so he is an above average Thenn for sure. If i'm not mistaken he had some showings of taking on the undead whereas a lot of other people were just getting overwhelmed and torn apart.

I'm completely buying the win, Jon was able to end him quickly, sure the white walker was in shock but that doesn't stop him from functioning. And of course Jon was dazed :P

Disagree about Qotho fight, Jorah was controlling that fight, that's how a man in plate defeats an Essosi. but when we see Jon in a comparable fight against an unarmoured opponent (I'll go to my grave saying he was losing that fight if not for the hammer. Agree about the fact that Qotho can't deal with plate though, yet whenever Jon has faced a fast opponent without armour, he's lost.

Jorah was controlling the fight? What were you watching?

Qotho toyed with him, could have finished him with that first cut but he messed around. He had the clear edge, even knocked Jorah on his arse, how the heck did Jorah control that fight? He won in the end sure but control? No he did not.

Lol the fight with the hammer which was pretty much EVEN until Jon beat him :P

Jon blocked multiple attacks from Karl who was fast and had dual wield knives, and of course he blocked attacks from the white walker while dazed. Jon has done good against fast opponents and has beaten 2 (the Thenn and the white walker.)

Jorah killed entire waves of Yunkish being attacked on many fronts the 6 kills aren't as impressive imo.

Jorah's just more impressive imo, take Mago vs Karl (yes, I know we are discussing Jorah vs Jon), both unarmoured, fast opponents who have utilise quick sharp cuts... but Mago's just better, Bloodrider > Skilled cutthroat in Fleabottom.

Also, I realised that in the show I think it's 40,000 in Drogo's Khalasar, so my bad.

I will have to rewatch it and see how many Jorah took down, but I don't think it's as impressive as Jon was in the wildlings vs crows fight and of course Jon took down multiple undead (what are they even called lol, the undead people that the white walkers control) they have shown to be superhuman and lack pain tolerance.

Mago vs Karl really isn't a good analogy, are we referring to which fight is more impressive, Jon vs Karl or Jorah vs qotho? I was referring to the White walker fight in my comment so I don't know why Karl is being brought up even though we're already talking about him but i'd say they did just as good in each fight. Jon was doing decent, he was blocking attacks and he took damage, ultimately he ended up losing through dirty tactics but the fight itself was pretty even. Jorah vs Qotho is completely different, Qotho showed he had the advantage and he even could have finished the fight but he toyed with Jorah. I don't think the Karl and Qotho showings show who would win out of Jorah and Jon, because their fighting styles are completely different and Karl's dirty tactics helped him get the edge whereas in Jorah's fight with Qotho he was losing the fight and won because of his armor and Qotho even gave him a huge edge by toying with him... ultimately Jorah's heavy armor won him the fight... Quotho just wasn't prepared for that.

@rogueshadow: ^^Wrote it a tad hastily, so forgive any errors.

@thenaughtytitan: Too busy, suffice to say I disagree, I'll get back to you later.

@rogueshadow: Was going to say the same thing when you responded, i'm going to go to sleep lol, look forward to your response.