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#1 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

Gorgon


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Darth Maul


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

  • Phantom Menace Maul 
  • Pre Dark Avengers Gorgon
 
 

Round 1: Woods


Rules:

  • To the death
  • No prep
  • No Stone Stare or Offensive Force powers
  • Strictly sword fight (neither blade can cut through the other)
  • Starting distance: 50 yards
 

Round 2: SHIELD Helicarrier Deck


Rules:

  • To the death
  • 20 min Prep for Both (brief list of powers and capabilities)
  • All powers allowed
  • Standard gear
  • Starting distance: 100 yards
#2 Edited by Phylos (2644 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Darth Maul, if his saberstaff is able to destroy the grasscutter then Tomi is doomed.

#3 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phylos: Ah, well I basically wanted to make it so neither one of their blades could not cut through each other. So disregard that, haha.
#4 Posted by Phylos (2644 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch: Oh alright, well with that being said then I'm not sure. Maybe a slight majority to Tomi since he's naturally very agile & quick. Not saying that Maul isn't, I'm just not sure if he uses the force or not to enhance what he already has.

#5 Posted by SlimJ87D (10051 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch: Gorgon should take it as Darth maul hardly has any feats powerless. Gorgon should win Round 2 as well if he gets his stone stare. Please take that away. Otherwise Darth Maul would take it due to his inhuman abilities that move and strike faster via force.

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#6 Posted by k4tzm4n (45537 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I think powers just means no offensive capabilities like grip and push/pull. I imagine he's still able to use the force for his own physicals...?

Staff
#7 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

@SlimJ87D: @texasdeathmatch I think powers just means no offensive capabilities like grip and push/pull. I imagine he's still able to use the force for his own physicals...?

Yeah, I'll clear that up. Basically no offensive force powers or stone stare for Round 1.
#8 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey! Let's point out all the flaws of the thread and then run away!

#9 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Maul.

#10 Posted by TheBatman586 (6316 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1- I'm not familiar with how skilled Tomi is at swordplay, so for now I'll say Maul.
Round 2- Darth Maul wins.

#11 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

I know Maul is ordinarily swift, but as I understand it he had his legs replaced by mechanical ones? How does that affect his speed?

Moderator
#13 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Maul.

Gorgon got stalemated by Iron Fist (strict hand to hand) then KO'd via one hit by Daredevil.

And here we have a classic case of Marvel butchering (or at the least cheapening) a once cool, respected character. Give Midnighter to Marvel and in a year, we'd have him losing to Squirrel Girl.

#14 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

Me Gusta this fight. 
 
Has Gorgon fought someone who fights with Maul's agility? 

#15 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this TCW Maul or TPM Maul? 
 
@Super_SoldierXII said:

Darth Maul.

Gorgon got stalemated by Iron Fist (strict hand to hand) then KO'd via one hit by Daredevil.

And here we have a classic case of Marvel butchering (or at the least cheapening) a once cool, respected character. Give Midnighter to Marvel and in a year, we'd have him losing to Squirrel Girl.

Facetiousness aside, let's not lowball.
#16 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said: 

@Wonderbrezzy: take a pic holding a piece of paper saying "What's up Pooty" and i'll believe that is really you.

Better idea: How about we take the off-topic discussion to the appropriate thread.
#17 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Darth Maul.

Gorgon got stalemated by Iron Fist (strict hand to hand) then KO'd via one hit by Daredevil.

And here we have a classic case of Marvel butchering (or at the least cheapening) a once cool, respected character. Give Midnighter to Marvel and in a year, we'd have him losing to Squirrel Girl.

May also be the unholy hard on that Bendis has for Daredevil....

#18 Posted by pooty (11239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Naw. I'll pass on that idea.

#19 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: I was going to go with EU...so does that count as Phantom Menace?
#20 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@texasdeathmatch: It counts, but current Maul (TCW) is a little different than he was in TPM.
#21 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Oh yeah, I know current Maul has metal legs. Has that been an improvement or downgrade for him?
#22 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@texasdeathmatch: I don't really know. Presumably, it would make no difference, but to be safe, it might be better to simply specify TPM Maul to avoid that issue.
#23 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Fair enough. What's your take then?
#24 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@texasdeathmatch: Not really sure.
#25 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Darth Maul.

Gorgon got stalemated by Iron Fist (strict hand to hand) then KO'd via one hit by Daredevil.

And here we have a classic case of Marvel butchering (or at the least cheapening) a once cool, respected character. Give Midnighter to Marvel and in a year, we'd have him losing to Squirrel Girl.

In a fight where he stated he wasn't giving it his all because he was saving his energy for Wolverine........

......and let's not pretend Daredevil kicking him in the face makes an ounce of sense.

Moderator
#26 Posted by pooty (11239 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Just going by your scans. Gorgon "holding back" wasn't winning against Danny. and Gorgon said he was holding back but Danny doesn't believe him and he could just have been boasting.

#27 Posted by davelecave (1113 posts) - - Show Bio

"No Stone Stare or Offensive Force powers" then what's the point?

#28 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@davelecave said:

"No Stone Stare or Offensive Force powers" then what's the point?

Because its a sword fight, hence "Strictly Sword Fight."
 
@CitizenBane
@pooty
yeah...I figured we would go with the Gorgon before he decided to dress up as Wolverine and get KO'd by Daredevil.
#29 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: One word: Bendis.

Moderator
#30 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

A pre-Bendis Gorgon, if you will.

#31 Posted by Owie (3764 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Gorgon's healing factor gives him the win in round 1.

In round 2, I would think Maul's force powers would give him the win. But I'm not sure exactly how Gorgon's stone stare works--from what I've read, he has to make eye contact with someone for it to work, is that right? I would think that since Maul knows that's how it works, then he could avoid the stare. Gorgon, on the other hand, couldn't avoid the force, and since they're on a helicarrier, all Maul really has to do is toss him off the side.

#32 Posted by terry2012 (5271 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wonderbrezzy: Wow your Beautiful

#33 Posted by terry2012 (5271 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know about gongon so I would stay out of it.

#34 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@pooty said:

@Wonderbrezzy: take a pic holding a piece of paper saying "What's up Pooty" and i'll believe that is really you.

Better idea: How about we take the off-topic discussion to the appropriate thread.

This made me laugh.

Moderator
#35 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@terry2012 said:

@Wonderbrezzy: Wow your Beautiful

She's also fake. I wouldn't waste too much time with that.
#36 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

I feel like Gorgon's healing factor gives him the win in round 1.

I question that. Gorgon can handle slash wounds very well, as Logan repeatedly stabbed him without noticeably detrimental effects, but a lightsaber outright disintegrates what it carves through. Could Gorgon heal from that? Possibly. With anywhere near the efficiency he did against Wolverine's claws? Personally, I doubt it. Maybe a user more knowledge on Gorgon can clarify that for me, but I have a difficult time seeing Gorgon withstand blows from a lightsaber blade very well, unless they were simply superficial cuts. 
 

In round 2, I would think Maul's force powers would give him the win. But I'm not sure exactly how Gorgon's stone stare works--from what I've read, he has to make eye contact with someone for it to work, is that right? I would think that since Maul knows that's how it works, then he could avoid the stare. Gorgon, on the other hand, couldn't avoid the force, and since they're on a helicarrier, all Maul really has to do is toss him off the side.

This part makes sense. More to the point, Maul could simply close his eyes if Gorgon managed to pin him and attempted to use his stare. Maul is no more or less effective with his sight, as he has fought invisible opponents before without any trouble. 
 
I also am curious about how Gorgon's telepathy would be appropriated here. Maul's mind, while not exceedingly difficult to penetrate, is repulsive due to the darkness residing in it (which itself is obviously a result of his connection and adherence to the darker aspects of the Force). I would think Gorgon could deal with that, but it might help for the sake of discussion to address it specifically. 

Also, has Gorgon displayed any telepathic resistances of his own? Because if not, Maul could return Gorgon's mental probing, and with his precog and intention sensing, there could be advantage between them in terms of move prediction.
#37 Posted by terry2012 (5271 posts) - - Show Bio

@texasdeathmatch: I was just commenting that all

#38 Posted by Owie (3764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Owie said:

I feel like Gorgon's healing factor gives him the win in round 1.

I question that. Gorgon can handle slash wounds very well, as Logan repeatedly stabbed him without noticeably detrimental effects, but a lightsaber outright disintegrates what it carves through. Could Gorgon heal from that? Possibly. With anywhere near the efficiency he did against Wolverine's claws? Personally, I doubt it. Maybe a user more knowledge on Gorgon can clarify that for me, but I have a difficult time seeing Gorgon withstand blows from a lightsaber blade very well, unless they were simply superficial cuts.

I was thinking about that as well, but I think if his healing factor is anything like Wolverine or Sabertooth's (and generally speaking most high-level Marvel healing factors seem to work about the same, as far as I'm aware), then it could probably heal from the burn/disintegration of the light saber, although it's hard to say how fast. While stab wounds and burns/disintegration wounds are clearly different in effect, the ability to basically ignore numerous major injuries like he did is pretty impressive, so it's my guess that he could handle the lightsaber wounds reasonably well (depending on where it hit--a lightsaber to the head, or an amputation, would probably be a different issue). He also seems to be able to pretty much ignore pain. Quickly or not, though, the healing factor is the one area of clear advantage that he has over Maul, who would not (as far as I know) be able to heal any injuries that he received from Grasscutter. If Maul is Gorgon's superior in speed/skill, then maybe the healing factor would not be enough, but if all other things are approximately equal (and that's my guess), then I would think it gives Gorgon a slight edge.

I don't know enough about Gorgon's TP to comment on the other part.

#39 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

@Silver2467 said:

@Owie said:

I feel like Gorgon's healing factor gives him the win in round 1.

I question that. Gorgon can handle slash wounds very well, as Logan repeatedly stabbed him without noticeably detrimental effects, but a lightsaber outright disintegrates what it carves through. Could Gorgon heal from that? Possibly. With anywhere near the efficiency he did against Wolverine's claws? Personally, I doubt it. Maybe a user more knowledge on Gorgon can clarify that for me, but I have a difficult time seeing Gorgon withstand blows from a lightsaber blade very well, unless they were simply superficial cuts.

I was thinking about that as well, but I think if his healing factor is anything like Wolverine or Sabertooth's (and generally speaking most high-level Marvel healing factors seem to work about the same, as far as I'm aware), then it could probably heal from the burn/disintegration of the light saber, although it's hard to say how fast. While stab wounds and burns/disintegration wounds are clearly different in effect, the ability to basically ignore numerous major injuries like he did is pretty impressive, so it's my guess that he could handle the lightsaber wounds reasonably well (depending on where it hit--a lightsaber to the head, or an amputation, would probably be a different issue). He also seems to be able to pretty much ignore pain. Quickly or not, though, the healing factor is the one area of clear advantage that he has over Maul, who would not (as far as I know) be able to heal any injuries that he received from Grasscutter. If Maul is Gorgon's superior in speed/skill, then maybe the healing factor would not be enough, but if all other things are approximately equal (and that's my guess), then I would think it gives Gorgon a slight edge.

I don't know enough about Gorgon's TP to comment on the other part.

That makes sense, but as you said, this probably all depends on what type of wound the blade delivers and where. 
 
As for Maul, no, he would probably not be too well-suited to resist similar damage from Grasscutter, but he could withstand less deadly wounds. Maul is a Zabrak; so naturally, he possesses impressive pain tolerance and durability. With his abusive training added to his Force abilities sustaining him, he is fairly tough. He has withstood multiple stun bolts from blasters without much injury (blaster bolts set to stun can quickly render species as physically resistant as Wookiees unconscious), a thirty meter fall without problems, and being hurled several meters by a speeder's repulsorlifts unharmed as a couple instances of Maul's sheer durability, and he has fought with broken bones and with  slashes across his back before as a couple instances of his enduring harm. His threshold for pain is discernibly inferior to Gorgon's but still potentially useful. 
 
As for speed, I am unconvinced on that one way or another, mostly because I have always been somewhat unclear as to how fast Gorgon is. I know he is faster than Wolverine but by how much? I know he tagged a speedster, but how fast was said speedster? He has a few other feats such as slicing bullets mid-flight, but these are easily offset by the number of projectiles Maul has deflected in simultaneity. If anyone could clarify these for me, I would appreciate it.
#40 Posted by Owie (3764 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: I have a couple instances regarding Gorgon and Elektra that can give some insight into his speed. I can't say whether this is faster or slower than Maul.
 
In the first, Gorgon beats the crap out of Elektra.  The effortless way he does this could just come from a higher skill level, but I think the implication is that his speed is also just far above hers, he seems to be almost toying with her--and her own skills and speed are pretty high.  (For instance, she once grabbed the Punisher's gun from his hand, while standing several feet away from him, without him even realizing it until she pointed it out to him.)
 

In the second, Gorgon and Elektra are able to speak at the speed of thought, whatever that means; in any case they seem to be in a different speed zone than everyone else, since the guards have "barely noticed their presence yet."  On the next page, he easily deflects machine gun fire by spinning his sword.
#41 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie: Toying with Elektra hardly impresses me. Maul could hit Elektra several times before she could register his presence, and his speed is such that he would be invisible to her.
 
As for the second...I could see that for the Gorgon. Elektra? Nonsense. She is not so fast that she can have an entire fight before people realize she is the vicinity. And even then, if they were moving and speaking at the speed of thought, then the guards should notice them, because they can think and process information that fast as well. So it makes no sense to begin with. I really have no idea what to make of that at all (especially within the context, because Elektra had an array of specialized equipment), but if it was meant to show that both of them are genuinely fast enough not to be noticed for a prolonged period despite people staring straight at them without any circumstantial factors, I don't really buy that for both of them, only the Gorgon.
 
As for Gorgon reflecting fire, this is good but not really better than Maul, especially because of the means by which Gorgon did that. He spun his blade, seemingly to catch the bullets on his blade aimlessly rather than deflect each individually. Maul has evaded and deflected fire from around twenty soldiers concurrently, and Force sensitive blaster-deflection involves intercepting projectiles one by one rather than moving a blade at random to scatter them. 
 
EDIT: I take that back. Even if it were the case that Gorgon spun his blades to defend against fire randomly, it still requires a high amount of speed on his part to manage that, and it is possible that he did move his blade along the vector of each bullet. So never mind that part. I still contend that Maul has done better though.
#42 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Is this TCW Maul or TPM Maul?

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Darth Maul.

Gorgon got stalemated by Iron Fist (strict hand to hand) then KO'd via one hit by Daredevil.

And here we have a classic case of Marvel butchering (or at the least cheapening) a once cool, respected character. Give Midnighter to Marvel and in a year, we'd have him losing to Squirrel Girl.

Facetiousness aside, let's not lowball.

I honestly feel my post states as clearly as can be that I feel Marvel was the party lowballing here. Though be that as it may, Gorgon has too few showings for his latest not to have an impact sadly enough.

#43 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Darth Maul.

Gorgon got stalemated by Iron Fist (strict hand to hand) then KO'd via one hit by Daredevil.

And here we have a classic case of Marvel butchering (or at the least cheapening) a once cool, respected character. Give Midnighter to Marvel and in a year, we'd have him losing to Squirrel Girl.

In a fight where he stated he wasn't giving it his all because he was saving his energy for Wolverine........

......and let's not pretend Daredevil kicking him in the face makes an ounce of sense.

He doesn't state he's not giving it his all. He states he's saving his fight for Logan and that Iron Fist is but an obstacle. I read that more as Gorgon stating Rand is beneath him and merely in the way of his true target more so than "I'll hold back because prolonging this fight is just what I need despite how badly I want to kick Logan's arse". It doesn't make sense.

DD kicking him in the face makes perfect sense. Though we agree that Gorgon actually being KO'd by said kick makes about as much sense as Matt KO'ing Logan with one hit. Conclusion: DD has wicked knockout power (?) Lol.

#44 Posted by Montaq (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

This part makes sense. More to the point, Maul could simply close his eyes if Gorgon managed to pin him and attempted to use his stare. Maul is no more or less effective with his sight, as he has fought invisible opponents before without any trouble.

Silver, I'm surprised as big of a Star Wars fan as you would make this mistake, everyone knows Maul can only blink once right before he dies. The notion of him closing his eyes is ridiculous.

#45 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@Montaq said:

@Silver2467 said:

This part makes sense. More to the point, Maul could simply close his eyes if Gorgon managed to pin him and attempted to use his stare. Maul is no more or less effective with his sight, as he has fought invisible opponents before without any trouble.

Silver, I'm surprised as big of a Star Wars fan as you would make this mistake, everyone knows Maul can only blink once right before he dies. The notion of him closing his eyes is ridiculous.

Ahem...

@Silver2467 said:

As for speed, I am unconvinced on that one way or another, mostly because I have always been somewhat unclear as to how fast Gorgon is. I know he is faster than Wolverine but by how much? I know he tagged a speedster, but how fast was said speedster? He has a few other feats such as slicing bullets mid-flight, but these are easily offset by the number of projectiles Maul has deflected in simultaneity. If anyone could clarify these for me, I would appreciate it.
#46 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Ok, Gorgon speed feats. Hopefully these will give a clearer idea of how Tomi would do. I have no idea who wins because of my limited Maul knowledge.

Kills Logan before he or his senses can notice:

Fights Elektra and some S.H.I.E.L.D agents, goes untouched throughout:

Slices bullets and blitzes some S.H.I.E.L.D agents:

This is the fight where he cut off Slingshot's arms. She's not Flash-fast or even Quicksilver-fast though, but she once ran from San Juan to Caja de Muertos in two panels.

And here he slices some bullets after they're fired:

Moderator
#47 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane: I have seen all of those before, but it helps to have added background information on a couple of them. The showings where Gorgon handles Elektra and SHIELD agents and the showings where he deflects/cuts bullets are good counterexamples for Maul's various deflection feats and his feats of moving faster than people can see him. 
 
Now, regarding his tagging Slingshot, it helps to have a generic approximation of her speed. You said she traveled from San Juan to Caja de Muertos in two panels. Those two places are (by estimate) somewhere between one to two thousand miles apart, yes? That is a good indication of her speed (although absent travel time, it is hard to actually measure how fast she traveled, but we can still ascertain a somewhat broad conclusion). Now, I know this is nitpicking; so be patient with me on this. But I'm not exactly sure how fast she is moving there, and by that I mean, she is able to utter a word or two before she reaches the Gorgon (Slingshot spoke a sentence in whole, but a few of the words in that sentence were spoken while she blitzed a couple other characters. So I am not including those, only the last two words in her sentence.). Afterwards, she leaps at him rather than speeds by him (which is a discrepancy in my memory of it, because I recalled her actually running straight at him). Now obviously, her momentum should cause her leaping speed to be roughly even with her running speed (until she begins to slowly decelerate as she approaches her landing), but the major issue I have is her speaking. Now, to be fair, the writer may not have given much thought to that. Dialog is thrown in with speedsters constantly, and this could merely be another example and was not intended to mean much other than that she gave an acknowledgement to her teammates before attacking him. In other words, this is comics; her dialog could be meant as inconsequential to her movement velocities. But I am still unsure, really. However, let me say that one way or another, it is still obviously a good feat, because she casually blitzed three other characters in the background in the time it took for her to say a few words (which is impressive operational, combat, and running speed), but I guess my point is that her dialog could be a matter of interpretation (unless there is any other contextual information I lack; I have never read the comic in question).
 
The Wolverine one is similarly confusing, but that is probably because I have no idea how fast his senses operate. I know his sense of sight would have to be superhuman to accommodate his superhuman reflexes; so I suppose his other senses could be that quick as well. But I am far from a Wolverine expert. It seems that Logan's sense of smell specifically never caught on to Gorgon due to speed, because Gorgon mentioned being silent implying that was how he bypassed Wolverine's hearing. The speed of Logan's sense of smell is the issue here, and I would presume it is equal with his other senses (but I have no way to say for sure). If we were to conclude that Wolverine's eyesight, which has allowed him to visually track bullets, translates to his sense of smell, then Gorgon would be moving faster than a sense which can operate faster than bullets. In other words, very fast (but of course, we already knew Gorgon was considerably faster than bullets anyway). 
 
All in all, this helps, but it leaves me with just as many questions as it answers. LOL. Let me know if you have any other info you could share with me though. I am open to learning about this. 
 
PS: I recognize that this post includes meticulous conjecture, but I do want to be as precise as possible when comparing Maul's speed with Gorgon's. To do that, we have to define his speed fairly closely.
#48 Posted by Mattersuit (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

Question. In "no offensive powers", Maul still has precog right?

#49 Posted by Wonderbrezzy (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

I don't need to bow down to your wants and needs, and if you wish to see yet another person asked the same as you did, tonight I posted my pic and sign go to with his ockward reqest Im not doing this any more . this place is out of hand Scroll down On REAL Life pic Thread and see for your self SMH

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/real-life-pic-thread/12499/?page=807

#50 Posted by nickthedevil (12807 posts) - - Show Bio

^^^^^^ Uhm... What???

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