Gorgon and Deathstroke vs Midnighter

BOOOOORING.

@Buckshot said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: You brought up the Sheba example but simply bringing it up doesn’t prove your point. You’re trying to say her ability was better than midnighter’s because Zealot and Nemesis couldn’t tag her when they tagged Midnighter. If it was so much better though, why did they compare her ability directly to his? You assuming it was better completely ignores anything else going on in that interaction but that ability (which is ironic given your attempt to attribute Midnighter’s wins against Winter and Hellstrike to anything but his ability and looking to the context in those fights, a double standard that reveals your bias if your feelings weren’t already clear). Nemesis and Zealot tag Midnighter because he doesn’t dance around and try to avoid their attacks nearly as much as Sheba did, and Nemesis had added help from a neurological agent and Hawksmoor getting in Midnighter’s way (not something I made up but something Midnighter references, though you haven’t responded to me presenting those details you left out either time I’ve done it, more of your double standard since it was you insisting that we acknowledge context even when there was less of it that was relevant in the examples you wanted to use). And all that not even getting into how their fight with Sheba was two panels long instead of the multiple pages that Midnighter fought them for. As for Regis, he wasn’t just telepathic, he also physically dominated Midnighter when it came to stats. It’s not just that he knew what Midnighter could do, but he also had the physical body to do something about it. And when we look at Gorgon’s display of move reading in battle we see that it clearly wasn’t good enough to not see Wolverine preparing to trick him into turning himself into stone. Neither his telepathy nor his physical abilities are on the level they need to be to duplicate Regis’ display.

What I displayed with examples of him beating Winter and Hellstrike (and Grifter, and Hawksmoor, and arguably Zealot) is that he doesn’t just beat fodder, which is the point you were attempting to make. You’re confused if you think that other than a few sentences I’ve been talking to you about Midnighter being equal to Gorgon or Deathstroke. Why would Midnighter not be able to distract Hellstrike in another fight? He got Hellstrike to look away from him, there didn’t need to be anything where Hellstrike actually looked for that to work. Hellstrike needed to be looking away before he could register anything surprising, so even if Midnighter had been lying it would have worked. Midnighter has shown he can move faster than can be seen, so in the time Hellstrike looked away, he could have acted regardless of if there was sex going on. And until you provide some shred of evidence that something interfered with Midnighter’s fight with Winter (something that could only be advantageous for Midnighter), your attempts to diminish that win are baseless.

If Jack hasn’t topped Spider-Man’s durability, show me him getting shot and being ok with it. Again, him catching bullets is more speed and timing than durability, but that’s all you’re able to reference. Also, I looked at the feats you listed of Spider-Man’s strength and the only one on the level of Jack’s feat is him throwing a space ship and I’m disregarding it because either the ship wasn’t as heavy as you think it was or it was, and the feat is just beyond Spider-Man’s abilities so it was bad writing. Spider-Man has an established strength limit so if he threw a ship it either wasn’t as heavy as your random estimate or it was heavier than his long-established limit and something he should not have been able to do (which is likely given how old that feat is). As for it not covering the distance I said, the comic gives a distance of 500 yards. That’s how far Jack was from the robot. I think if Jack Hawksmoor is able to hit Superman hard enough that he bleeds, he’s out of Spider-Man’s strength range.

Zealot says they’re very tough but armor piercing rounds were able to harm her sister. Seems to me that the “but” is indicating that the armor piercing rounds exceed their toughness, and that the whole statement would be irrelevant if the rounds Grifter used didn’t do anything more than normal ones would. Regardless, the original point was that Midnighter stalemating Zealot is still a display of his ability. You equate Zealot to Cap physically, but add on to Cap maybe 10,000 years of unwavering dedication combat and anyone who could stalemate that character armed or unarmed would need to have tremendous ability. You say Midnighter only won because of interference and it seems to me to be another attempt to disregard any of his wins against established characters. If Maul interfered with the fight, Midnighter would have to deal with that interference just as much as Zealot did. They were both affected by Maul barging in, but Midnighter uses it to win while Zealot ends up with a sword in her throat. It displays his greater level of focus and adaptability, but it doesn’t make it any less of a win. Honestly though, I think it was part of his plan. He introduced weapons and because of that Zealot brought into the fight the weapons that Midnighter would use to force her down. It could be that everything happened in just a way to make it so Midnighter would have control of Zealot’s sword, or it could be that, fully in line with his powers, he knew what would happen if he acted a certain way and chose the outcome he wanted. And whether or not he was injured after the fight doesn’t matter, Zealot gave up because she acknowledged that she could not beat him in that battle (despite, regardless of what you think of my theory on his plans, an interference that affected them both equally).

Grifter shooting Midnighter is different in your head because you want it to be. Midnighter has blocked bullets out of the air. Even if you want to call everything else he’s done “aim dodging”, he’s knocked bullets out of the air, and that’s a bit beyond simply avoiding the general direction of a gun. Grifter not telegraphing his actions would matter if Midnighter’s computer couldn’t simply tell him what Grifter was going to do. That seems to be your problem, assuming that the combat computer doesn’t let him actually know what someone’s going to do next even though that’s been made clear. He says he knows the moves people are “preparing to make”, not the ones they might make, what they’re actually going to do. There was a whole issue dedicated to trying to show what a day in the life of Midnighter was like. He didn’t just see a lot of possible things, he knew, back to front, exactly how a fight (actually a series of fights) would go if he chose certain actions. He “knows every move you’ll make, and how to counter it”, not just random possibilities but the moves that will be made. You seem to want to ignore that his character is based on this ability because him only seeing possibilities makes him easier to beat. He does see millions of ways a fight could go, but he also knows how it will go because he can pick and choose what to do knowing what the consequences will be. As for Grifter, he was confident he could hit Midnighter but he never showed it. Grifter making statements about Midnighter means nothing. So does Captain Atom making statements about him.

So to summarize the fights you’re using to attempt to say that Midnighter doesn’t do all that well against established characters:

Jack Hawksmoor

Fight 1: In a city, so able to increase his strength, durability, and speed (beyond levels that, at their weakest are greater than Spider-Man’s), and has precognition and can see from every window, stalemated Midnighter.

Fight 2: On the Carrier, so likely at base stats (physically more robust than Spider-Man). Midnighter seemed to be winning when the fight ended. (And by seemed to be winning, I mean he hit Jack multiple times, avoided many of Jack’s hits, getting tagged only once on panel, and grinning through the fight.)

Zealot: Multi-hour back and forth resulting in a stalemate. Case can be made that Midnighter capitalized on a distraction that affected both of them or that he instigated the addition of weapons that would allow him to take victory.

Grifter

Fight 1: Grifter pulls a gun on Midnighter three times but never gets a shot off (even when Midnighter is facing away from him) and gets bones broken and shuriken lodged in his neck and spine. Win for Midnighter.

Fight 2: Midnighter catches Grifter (whose gen active powers allow him to detect nearby life) unaware and knocks both guns out of Grifter’s hands and pins him down. While they’re talking, Grifter breaks free and hits Midnighter a few times. They stop fighting to deal with another issue.

So Midnighter stalemates or beats all of them. Hawksmoor held his own but he’s a 40 tonner that moves like Spider-Man on his worst day. Zealot held her own for hours , and she’s Cap with a sex change, a bad attitude and about 10000 years of practice. Grifter got embarrassed in one fight and though their second fight ended early, he didn’t impress, unless you think a few punches on someone about as durable as concrete and able to get up after spaceships crash on him and heal from getting impaled through the chest in the middle of battle is a stalemate after Grifter had already been disarmed. (A couple other things to consider with the Grifter fight where he didn’t die: First issue of their team-up book and Midnighter was playing nice as evidenced by him asking about them being on the same side and giving him time to act while he still had one gun.) Midnighter has good showings against these established characters, not to mention others. I know you’ll never accept that he has good showings against characters that aren’t fodder, and I’ll just have to learn to live with that.

It boggles my mind how quick you are to dismiss Midnighter’s wins against Winter, Hellstrike, and Zealot because of interference, but you see absolutely no issue with crediting Nemesis with a win over Midnighter when he was literally doused in a neurologic agent and actually complains about how Hawksmoor interferes in the fight. And I just realized how interrupted Grifter’s fight was. After Midnighter broke his arm and laid him out the first time, Void teleports his baton away so Midnighter goes to beat her up, and after Midnighter disarms Grifter and prepares to crush his skull, Captain Atom throws Apollo, fresh from the sun, at him from through a Door.

I'm not going to theorize about how good Midnighter's ability might be if he hypothetically decided to fight differently. I said Sheeba's ability was shown to be more effective, and it was. Do you disagree with that statement? You are correct that Midnighter's battle computer was compared to Sheeba's move reading ability, but you are reading into that far more then you should. Simple fact is that his ability was never actually shown to be equally as effective let, alone more effective (which is the argument people are making in this thread) in his confrontations with either Nemesis nor Zealot. Oracle has said that Black Canary is more skilled than Batman, but nothing actually supports that statement. Wolverine said Gamora heals as fast has he does... right after she was put down by a single stab wound to the stomach, something that wouldn't have even slowed Wolverine down. There are dozens if not hundreds of equivlant statements like that in comics, but someone saying something doesn't supersede the facts or feats. Much like the case with Zealot's questionable bullet proof status, I value feats and concrete showings more than I value off hand narrative statements and anecdotal evidence. I'm not assuming that Sheeba's ability is better, I'm stating that it was shown to more effective, and I'm right about that. You are the one making assumptions, friend. Sheeba's move reading was shown more effective at avoiding the attacks of Zealot and Nemesis, (and she fought them both at once unlike Midnighter) and Regis telepathy was shown to trump his battle computer as well.

Hellstrike's girlfriend (and Rose, or a fourth party to make the sex to his girlfriend) would still needed to have been present for Midnighter to distract him with even the possibility of that happening... which is still a scenario. Any on would be distracted by the sight of their girl friend cheating on them. It's not a good example of Midnighter's abilities, litterally anyone could have made that observation and capitalized on it if they knew enough about Hellstrike to know who his girlfriend was.

Regis has virtually no feats. He crushed a man's skull in his grip and he stood in some fire. What makes you think for a second that he is physically superior Wolverine, let alone Gorgon? Gorgon did the same thing to Wolverine that Regis did to Midnighter, and Wolverine has better speed, strength, durability, healing and even tp resistance feats than Midnighter does. Regis was a mild superhuman with telepathy, and he beat the breaks off Midnighter and his battle computer was of no help what so ever. Wolverine managed to take out Gorgon by reflecting his stare back at him, so what? Gorgon was right up in Wolverine's face and Wolverine's claws unsheathe at several hundred mph, Gorgon didn't have adequate time to react even with his telepathy. What is Regis' excuse that he didn't pick up on Jack's ambush with his telepathy? Jack's ambush likely wouldn't have even slowed Gorgon down, considering he was durable enough to shrug off Wolverine crashing into him at 100mph and knocking him off a skyscraper before the fight even started. Even sans stone stare, Gorgon is better than Regis in ever conceivable way. Hell Elektra has better strength and telepathy feats than Regis did.

Spider-man doesn't get shot very often, and while speed and timing play a large part in catching a bullet, durability is still a factor. It's difficult to make the comparison because Spider-man has never attempted to catch a shotgun blast, and conventional side arms and rifles do much different type of damage. Bullets penetrate a lot deeper than shot gun pellets, making catching one a more impressive feat, but shotguns have a wider spread / aoe are are designed to create more trauma. It would require much higher durability to tank a bullet than a shot gun blast, but force of the shotgun could still do internal damage. They are very different types which is why I cited Spider-man tanking explosions, because really it's more relevant to the discussion than him catching bullets. Anyway, what type of ammo was used on Hawksmoor? We don't know. It might have been buckshot, but it just as well could have been bird shot, in which case Spider-man probably would have fared just as well based on the increased density of his muscles. Jack has consecrated pretty hard on avoiding bullets before.

All of the examples I cited were on par or above that example you cited of Hawksmoor tossing that semi. Spider-man is supposed to have class 20 strength, but he has dozens of examples of him excepting class 40-60 and even above. Jake has a single one, outside of the one isolated strength feat what else has Jake done that suggest that he is class 40 sans amping? Hell even with his gravity manip and city amp, what has he done to put him in the 40 ton range? Jack is a class 10-20 like Spider-man, and he has one example of him exhibiting class 40 strength. Prior to that one example what is there that would suggest that without gravity manip Jack can lift a semi truck? Nothing. Make no mistake my saying that Jack has Spider-man level attributes he me giving him the benefit of the doubt. An analysis of his complete history doesn't provide much to suggest he is as strong or as fast as Spider-man. He has one strength feat that puts him on Spider-man level, and it's the truck fight. I could just was easily write that off completely in the same way people ignore that Hawkeye has a feat where he causally lifts a car off himself with one arm. And FYI Jack took the pipe 500 yards inland to it's first exit point, the robot went parallel to the pipe and fallowed Jack along the coast, you even see a panel of this from the driver's perspective analysing the pipe Jack is on from the side. Hawksmoor wasn't 500 yards away from the robot when he through the truck, he wasn't even 20. Look at the art. I understand you have some strange vested interest at play here hyping Authority members, but get real. Physically Jack Hawksmoor is Spider-man light with no caffeine, no sugar and 0 calories.

Jack doesn't have precog (yes I am aware it was stated that he did back in one of his original Storm Watch appearances but he has never shown that ability, and is that stuff even canon anymore? Seemed like Secret Origins retcon'd it seeing as he was boning chicks prior to meeting Storm Watch, which was at a time when he shouldn't have had any genitals), in a city, the most apt word would be clairvoyance, but that isn't 100% accurate either.

Don't forget that Captain America was stuck in a closed temporal loop fighting Korvac, so he has much more experience than his age would dictate. Anyway experience only amounts for so much, Grifter has thrown down with Zealot and Backlash and held his own, Wolverine's fought the millions of years old Angel of Death and beaten him hundreds if not thousands of times. Strength, speed, skill, durability, healing, in terms of feats Cap has Zealot beat in every imaginable category. Midnighter fought Zealot in h2h for several hours and held his own (IMO she had the slight advantage), but as soon as the weapons came out she had the noticeable advantage. Midnighter got stabbed almost instantly, and if she hadn't decided to wax poetic and hold her sword in the air while reciting some soliloquy she could have finished Midnighter before Maul even got involved. You claim that Maul's interference was just as much of an disadvantage to Midnighter as Zealot, but that is completely untrue. Maul came at them from behind Zealot, as such she was the one forced on the defensive, and Midnighter capitalized on that. Also, I love how in your mind Midnighter planed it all out and anticipated Maul's interference... but he Jack got in the way in his fight with Nemesis. lol

The only documented effect the neurological agent had was severing Midnighter's connection to the Carrier, and greasing him up so Nemesis could slide out of his bear hug easier. None of the Authority mentioned even off hand that their abilities were diminished, and Nemesis mentioned Midnighter's battle computer during the comparison to Sheeba you love to bring up, so that must have been active too. Jack "getting in the way," basically amounted to him getting kicked once while Midnighter was holding Nemesis in a bear hug. Its amusing how on one hand you hype the abilities of Midnighter's battle computer and pretend it's a deus ex machina instant battle winning device... then on the other complain that he lost because Jack "got in the way." So what? I guess his battle computer most have missed that outcome huh? Sheesh. It wasn't even like Jack was bumbling around with Midnighter tripping over him or anything, hell Midnighter was even the one who asked for Jack to step in and help!

Grifter shooting Midnighter is different in my head because I've read all of Grifter's appearances and know what he has accomplished. He has shot faster people than Midnighter, with better bullet dodging feats. That is just a fact. Pretending that Midnighter would no sell Grifter like he is a no name thug with a gun is asinine. Just look back at Grifter's accomplishments. You could make a case that he could counted with Midnighter in pure h2h, never mind factoring in his guns. You need to ignore the entirety of Grifter's history for that showing to make any sense, I can do that with Midnighter and pretend that the feat from Human on the Inside is valid and that Midnighter's battle computer only works if his opponent initiates combat, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

Jack:

Fight 1: It might be semantics but Jack doesn't increase his strength nor his speed in a city, he lowers the gravity making himself "as light as smoke" which increases the distance he can jump. Like a John Carter of Mars type of deal. Anyway the only ability he used in that initial fight with Midnighter was phasing through a building after he took a hit. He didn't suck Midnighter into the ground, he didn't have the buildings attack him, he didn't make a giant armour, he didn't do any one of thousands of possible things he could do with his powers. Jack went out to bang with Midnighter and he held his own.

Fight 2: Jack is much less "physically robust" than Spider-man, but other than that you are largely right, although I would say Jack hit him twice since I think he got him with that spin kick before he was suplexed into the ground.

Zealot:

Midnighter contended in the h2h portion but as soon as weapons came out he was quickly outclassed, the only thing that saved him from a quick and decisive lose was Zealot stopping to give a monologue while Midnighter was dead to rights, than Maul attacking her. When all was said and done Zealot walked off no worse for wear and Midnighter could barely stand... and he is the one with a healing factor.

Grifter:

Fight 1: Gen Factor-less Grifter got jobbed out to Midnighter, and then beaten by Apollo.

Fight 2: An fairly accurate assessment although though that isn't exactly what his Gen Factor does, and it has never been exactly reliable.

Honestly you are getting worked over things I haven't even said (or you are reading far to deeply into my posts). I said Midnighter has a documented history of having back and forth fights with other street level characters. I didn't say "Jack, Grifter, Zealot and Nemesis kicked his ass! Midnighter sucks!" I basically said "Midnighter doesn't effortlessly kill everyone," now you guys are all up my ass about it. That isn't me low balling Midnighter, or selling him short, it's just the truth. I don't understand why anyone would think that Midnighter is too much for Deathstroke based on their feats.No one has even bothered to rectify their belief that Midnighter can stomp both theses guys with the fact that he hasn't been able to stomp the closest characters to these two that he has actually fought.Fan wanking aside Midnighter's feats don't support the notion that he could "stomp," take a noticeable majority from either of these guys one on one let alone beat the two of them at once. Deathstroke vs Midnighter would be an amazing fight, likely one of the best street level - low level meta fights in the history of comics, and anyone who thinks it isn't a 50/50 is simple delusional or a hapless fanboy. Outside of his one stupid feat where he kicks a tank shell what has Midnighter done that suggest he is stronger or faster than Deathstroke? What has he done that suggest he can heal faster than Deathstroke? Who has he even beaten in fight that is Deathstroke calibre? Name a Midnighter feat that Deathstroke hasn't or couldn't replicated given the opportunity. The closest fight he has had to Deathstroke is Nemesis or Zealot, and while they are more skilled, the lack has enhanced insane tactical mind and his healing factor. You levy claims of bias against me, and I think that is laughable. Like the notion that Midnighter is actually on par with other characters and can have even fights with is some how a huge fraking slight against the character and I must obviously have some insidious agenda. Please man, don't be so dramatic. The only Midnighter feats that mater in your mind are the character's equivalent of Wolverine climbing out of a vat of molten metal, surviving a trip to the sun, that is PIS which are of little to no baring at all. Zealot held her own against Midnighter, and arguable had the advantage the entire time prior to outside interference... why one earth would anyone believe that Deathstroke would be so completely out matched that he couldn't even win with the help of Gorgon?

Midnighter's battle computer is being completely overrated. From browsing the form the last couple of days, I've seen the same thing from Batgirl's move reading ability on this forum. The ability has never afforded her a sizeable never mind insurmountable advantage over any top tier martial artist, and Canary, Batman, Connor, Shiva and even Nightwing have all been shown capable of contending with her in combat while avoiding her attacks while landing some of their own... yet if you read some of the posts on here it's like she is the Kitty Pride or something and completely untouchable. I'm sorry but that isn't true for either of this characters. Midnighter's business card is cool, but it's largely hyperbole. He isn't unbeatable. He is a low level meta human, with class 2 strength, slightly superhuman speed, a relatively tame healing factor and a battle computer. He isn't an unstoppable street level wrecking machine and outside of killing scores of fodder he has never been displayed that way. The general view of Midnighter on this forum is completely off base, any one who suggest that he does anything other than effortlessly beat up every character he fights is treated hostilely and insulted. You can't just say "he wins because of his battle computer," because his battle computer isn't depicted as being that much of a game changer against characters who pose as much of a threat as Slade does, and if you are going Midnighter's actual history then why bother even reading comics? We could read the two sentence bio on the back of a trading card and say "Well Daredevil beats Batman because he has a radar sense." It's ridiculous.

@thedastardlyscoundrel: Sheba was able to fight Zealot and Nemesis more effectively for two panels. That is true. If you want to attribute that ENTIRELY to her move reading ability, then I think by that same standard we’d have attribute Midnighter’s win over Winter entirely to his move reading ability instead of assuming that something else took place to help Midnighter win when nothing of the sort was shown. Similarly, if we break it down to oversimplified terms, your argument about Grifter should be thrown out. Midnighter was shown to be the superior combatant without question. You’re comparing what Sheba did in two panels to Midnighter fighting Nemesis with multiple, explicitly stated, hindrances, and his fight with Zealot where he clearly used a far different approach than Sheba did. You’re isolating one aspect of the fight and attributing the outcome to that, and it’s simply bad analysis. It makes perfect sense to me that an acrobatic fighter using guerilla tactics would be harder to hit than an aggressive attacker using a direct approach, but it seems like the only difference you choose to see is their method of predicting moves.

You think Hellstrike thought “Hmmm, it’s possible that my girlfriend is having sex on the battlefield, lemme check”? Midnighter had something to work with in that fight, but he’s shown he can play on people’s feelings even when there’s nothing around. When Lorenzo had him pinned under a building, Midnighter beat him by talking to him. Midnighter could have created his own distraction if he wanted to since all he was trying to do was make Hellstrike look away for a second. An explosive going off near his head would have accomplished the same thing. I’m not saying it’s the greatest display of Midnighter’s ability, but he beat Hellstrike, something no one would expect if they listened to your claims that Midnighter doesn’t beat any established characters.

I think Regis is more than “mildly superhuman” because he was merely pissed off by an energy attack aimed at him that demolished the palace he was in and because he floored Jack Hawksmoor (a man who has, while weakened and caught unaware, gotten right back up after being smacked with a wrecking ball) with a backhand. Being unharmed and not even knocked over by a directed lightning strike that ripped a palace apart and hitting like a wrecking ball are not “mildly superhuman” feats. Not to mention, he let Midnighter try to hurt him and smiled at his attempt. Regis didn’t have many feats, you’re right about that, but he did show that he was clearly out of Midnighter’s league even before you add in the telepathy. Midnighter losing to him is to be expected, not a low point for Midnighter.

Hahaha, now you’re attempting to diminish Hawksmoor getting shotgun-blasted multiple times by suggesting it could be birdshot? LOL. Even funnier when compared to your stance on the Zealot thing. You want to assume bullets that hurt her are all normal because anything else makes her too durable, and you want to assume Hawksmoor got hit with birdshot because it’s something Spider-Man could handle. Wow. And Jack is a class 10-20 why? Because you say so? That’s not quite enough. He doesn’t have many strength feats (because he doesn’t need to lift anything when the city can do it for him) but what he does have is clearly beyond the range you want to stick him with. Unlike Spider-Man, Jack doesn’t have multiple sources citing his stating his strength is somewhere lower than what he displayed. Is there something, somewhere, showing Jack being unable to throw a tanker truck? Something like Hawkeye lifting a car one handed could be written off because his strength is established as lower than that. The same is not true for Jack Hawksmoor, and your label for his strength doesn’t carry as much weight as a handbook page. You want to dismiss Jack’s powers because you consider them non canon because Jack had sex? Where do you get the idea that Jack didn’t have genitals? He’s messed up, but he has genitals. If he didn’t, I don’t know what he was doing all those times he was having sex with Angie. Gimme a reason to believe his powers were removed. I’ll say though, you’re right about one thing, the 500 yards. I had originally taken that number because it was clearly stated and assumed that the screen in the robot was just a schematic tracking him, not a direct video of his movement (since it had other writing on it and was seeing in a mode that was different from every other time the screen was shown), but its easier to believe that the robot moved to the side. The feat still suggests Hawksmoor has significant strength though, given that he didn’t just lift the tanker trailer, but threw it at the end of a long night of abuse.

You don’t see how in the fight where Midnighter is functioning correctly he could plan events the way his powers would suggest, but in a fight where he’s bathed in a neural-inhibitor his planning skills (or his fighting skills) may not be at 100% REALLY? I don’t think this is a particularly difficult puzzle. And the glop didn’t sever their connection to the Carrier. Nemesis takes a panel to do something to the Carrier (she says she told it something) and the next panel is when Jack says he’s disconnected even though they had been covered in glop for some time. If the glop wasn’t cutting them off from the carrier and only incidentally made for good lube, it was doing something else. Probably negatively affecting their brain function maybe, just as a guess. The specifics are unknown. You want to excuse battles for all sorts of reasons and call interference when the characters don’t mention it so that it will diminish a win for Midnighter, but when Midnighter actually makes a point to tell Jack he’s stupid in a fight, that’s the only fight where things went as they should have.

I’m not pretending Midnighter will no-sell an armed Grifter. I don't need to pretend, he did it twice before the incident your talking about. He even did it in the only fight Grifter got any hits in. Midnighter disarmed him at the start but left him one gun almost just so he could disarm a couple him a couple panels later. Grifter has a bad track record for staying armed when facing Midnighter. And you stay on this "What if Grifter shot him" thing like Grifter pulling a trigger means Midnighter automatically dies. Rose Tattoo shot Midnighter point blank while he was trying to talk some sense into her and he still put her in a choke hold and was getting ready to kill her when Bendix interrupted them.

Since Jack can increase his density and that typically comes with increased strength and durability, I would say that he can increase those stats (I wasn’t saying that he did, just that in that fight he could have while he’d be less likely to in the one on the Carrier). Speed just got lumped in, but between messing with terrain and futzing with gravity he probably could. Midnighter engaged a fast and acrobatic 40 tonner in h2h and held his own. You make it sound like a bad thing, but I’m not seeing it.

I’m not sure where you get quickly outclassed from in the Zealot fight. I don’t know how many hits Midnighter landed (two were shown but the narration to me suggests more) but Zealot only got one, even if it was a better hit because of her choice of weapon. Midnighter actually seems better purely in terms of skill (Zealot needed just one hit but Midnighter was able to prevent her from getting it while succeeding in hitting her). Zealot only shows her lead when she goes for an emotional play. It’s a completely valid tactic, but I wouldn’t call that her outclassing him in a physical exchange. And just like it’s Midnighter is wont to take hits instead of dodge them, Zealot is likely to talk. Bad move on her part, but they both stayed in character and it cost her an opportunity.

I know what your stance is and I simply disagree with the idea that Midnighter doesn’t have wins over or impressive showings against anyone of note. I say Winter you say, “interference”. Hellstrike. “Plot”. Grifter. “Jobbing”. Hawksmoor. “He’s not even as good as Spider-Man”. And, despite the outcome, solid displays against Zealot and Nemesis: “He didn’t beat them so he must not be that good.” Of course with that perspective Midnighter doesn’t have good showings against anyone but fodder and you’ll probably do so until the day you die.

Holy great gobbling walls of text Batman!

I thought my responses were generally word intensive. I feel a little better now about my overall verbosity :P

So, um, who's winning?

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Holy great gobbling walls of text Batman!

I thought my responses were generally word intensive. I feel a little better now about my overall verbosity :P

So, um, who's winning?

I have no idea

I'll go with the team.

I knew this would turn out to be a very good thread. kudos to me

the team wins this maybe one on one but the midnighter couldn't deal with both especially if slade is sniping

Midnighter.

Think I'm done with this one. I'm losing interest and I don't want to feel like I'm obligated to get back to anything in a few days (going out of town after christmas) when I'm likely to care even less. Since the walls of text seem to obscure what I'm actually saying, I'm just gonna summarize my stance so its easy see in case I don't come back to clarify anything.

"I understand that it is super impressive that Midnighter mows over 8th string reject ripoffs of established characters with ease (groan), but the reality is Midnighter's battle computer has never (NEVER) afforded him a win over anyone of note. Zealot was able to hold her own against him in melee (and arguably had the advantage) and physically she is at best a low level super human on par with Cap. Hawksmoor has held is own against Midnighter in melee with out amping or using his more exotic powers and he is basicly Spider-man light minus a spider sense. Grifter stalemated him with his peak human stats and low level telepathy. Any time he has fought a mildly established character they have managed to hold their own... and most of the time they have been streets or level metas."

That was the statement I was responding to, particularly the bit about Midnighter "never (NEVER)" winning over anyone of note and certain characters holding their own against him implying a lower level of skill/ability. He won against Winter and Hellstrike (and Blademaster and Strafe, though Blademaster isn't very established) in the same fight. He all but killed Grifter in one fight without being touched by him once. He disarmed and pinned Grifter in their second fight - and Grifter broke out while they were talking and punched him a few times, but like I said, even if they didn't stop fighting, I don't think a couple punches against someone whose flesh was described as concrete, who can take ships crashing on him, and who can block punches from a woman capable of chucking cars, indicates that Grifter was doing very well. He held his own against Hawksmoor in their first fight, and Hawksmoor is a 40 tonner that moves like Spider-Man who was also pissed off while Midnighter was only fighting to cause problems within the team. He was beating Hawksmoor in their second fight (a serious one, though he was smiling the whole time). The only character mentioned that was actually shown beating Midnighter at any point was Zealot, and at the end of the fight she surrenders, and even when she was ahead, it wasn't on pure skill. She needed one hit to win and Midnighter was getting hits in while preventing hers for a few panels, and she finally got hers through an emotional play (and if that's legitimate, Midnighter distracting Hellstrike most certainly was since that didn't even require specific and personal information), not outmaneuvering him physically. I didn't realize this until now, but dastardlyscoundrel wanted to see Midnighter effortlessly trash an established character to prove that he can, but he did it to Grifter (and don't mistake, he did it twice, Grifter only got hits in during their second fight because Midnighter was playing nice and talking to him when he had him pinned), Winter, Hellstrike, and Strafe, and it was called jobbing or PIS. With him being on top in, if not outright winning, most of these fights, even the one against Hawksmoor, I personally think the idea that he only easily beats fodder and "never (NEVER)" beats or does well against established characters is incorrect. Merry Christmas.

@Buckshot said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: Sheba was able to fight Zealot and Nemesis more effectively for two panels. That is true. If you want to attribute that ENTIRELY to her move reading ability, then I think by that same standard we’d have attribute Midnighter’s win over Winter entirely to his move reading ability instead of assuming that something else took place to help Midnighter win when nothing of the sort was shown. Similarly, if we break it down to oversimplified terms, your argument about Grifter should be thrown out. Midnighter was shown to be the superior combatant without question. You’re comparing what Sheba did in two panels to Midnighter fighting Nemesis with multiple, explicitly stated, hindrances, and his fight with Zealot where he clearly used a far different approach than Sheba did. You’re isolating one aspect of the fight and attributing the outcome to that, and it’s simply bad analysis. It makes perfect sense to me that an acrobatic fighter using guerilla tactics would be harder to hit than an aggressive attacker using a direct approach, but it seems like the only difference you choose to see is their method of predicting moves.

You think Hellstrike thought “Hmmm, it’s possible that my girlfriend is having sex on the battlefield, lemme check”? Midnighter had something to work with in that fight, but he’s shown he can play on people’s feelings even when there’s nothing around. When Lorenzo had him pinned under a building, Midnighter beat him by talking to him. Midnighter could have created his own distraction if he wanted to since all he was trying to do was make Hellstrike look away for a second. An explosive going off near his head would have accomplished the same thing. I’m not saying it’s the greatest display of Midnighter’s ability, but he beat Hellstrike, something no one would expect if they listened to your claims that Midnighter doesn’t beat any established characters.

I think Regis is more than “mildly superhuman” because he was merely pissed off by an energy attack aimed at him that demolished the palace he was in and because he floored Jack Hawksmoor (a man who has, while weakened and caught unaware, gotten right back up after being smacked with a wrecking ball) with a backhand. Being unharmed and not even knocked over by a directed lightning strike that ripped a palace apart and hitting like a wrecking ball are not “mildly superhuman” feats. Not to mention, he let Midnighter try to hurt him and smiled at his attempt. Regis didn’t have many feats, you’re right about that, but he did show that he was clearly out of Midnighter’s league even before you add in the telepathy. Midnighter losing to him is to be expected, not a low point for Midnighter.

Hahaha, now you’re attempting to diminish Hawksmoor getting shotgun-blasted multiple times by suggesting it could be birdshot? LOL. Even funnier when compared to your stance on the Zealot thing. You want to assume bullets that hurt her are all normal because anything else makes her too durable, and you want to assume Hawksmoor got hit with birdshot because it’s something Spider-Man could handle. Wow. And Jack is a class 10-20 why? Because you say so? That’s not quite enough. He doesn’t have many strength feats (because he doesn’t need to lift anything when the city can do it for him) but what he does have is clearly beyond the range you want to stick him with. Unlike Spider-Man, Jack doesn’t have multiple sources citing his stating his strength is somewhere lower than what he displayed. Is there something, somewhere, showing Jack being unable to throw a tanker truck? Something like Hawkeye lifting a car one handed could be written off because his strength is established as lower than that. The same is not true for Jack Hawksmoor, and your label for his strength doesn’t carry as much weight as a handbook page. You want to dismiss Jack’s powers because you consider them non canon because Jack had sex? Where do you get the idea that Jack didn’t have genitals? He’s messed up, but he has genitals. If he didn’t, I don’t know what he was doing all those times he was having sex with Angie. Gimme a reason to believe his powers were removed. I’ll say though, you’re right about one thing, the 500 yards. I had originally taken that number because it was clearly stated and assumed that the screen in the robot was just a schematic tracking him, not a direct video of his movement (since it had other writing on it and was seeing in a mode that was different from every other time the screen was shown), but its easier to believe that the robot moved to the side. The feat still suggests Hawksmoor has significant strength though, given that he didn’t just lift the tanker trailer, but threw it at the end of a long night of abuse.

You don’t see how in the fight where Midnighter is functioning correctly he could plan events the way his powers would suggest, but in a fight where he’s bathed in a neural-inhibitor his planning skills (or his fighting skills) may not be at 100% REALLY? I don’t think this is a particularly difficult puzzle. And the glop didn’t sever their connection to the Carrier. Nemesis takes a panel to do something to the Carrier (she says she told it something) and the next panel is when Jack says he’s disconnected even though they had been covered in glop for some time. If the glop wasn’t cutting them off from the carrier and only incidentally made for good lube, it was doing something else. Probably negatively affecting their brain function maybe, just as a guess. The specifics are unknown. You want to excuse battles for all sorts of reasons and call interference when the characters don’t mention it so that it will diminish a win for Midnighter, but when Midnighter actually makes a point to tell Jack he’s stupid in a fight, that’s the only fight where things went as they should have.

I’m not pretending Midnighter will no-sell an armed Grifter. I don't need to pretend, he did it twice before the incident your talking about. He even did it in the only fight Grifter got any hits in. Midnighter disarmed him at the start but left him one gun almost just so he could disarm a couple him a couple panels later. Grifter has a bad track record for staying armed when facing Midnighter. And you stay on this "What if Grifter shot him" thing like Grifter pulling a trigger means Midnighter automatically dies. Rose Tattoo shot Midnighter point blank while he was trying to talk some sense into her and he still put her in a choke hold and was getting ready to kill her when Bendix interrupted them.

Since Jack can increase his density and that typically comes with increased strength and durability, I would say that he can increase those stats (I wasn’t saying that he did, just that in that fight he could have while he’d be less likely to in the one on the Carrier). Speed just got lumped in, but between messing with terrain and futzing with gravity he probably could. Midnighter engaged a fast and acrobatic 40 tonner in h2h and held his own. You make it sound like a bad thing, but I’m not seeing it.

I’m not sure where you get quickly outclassed from in the Zealot fight. I don’t know how many hits Midnighter landed (two were shown but the narration to me suggests more) but Zealot only got one, even if it was a better hit because of her choice of weapon. Midnighter actually seems better purely in terms of skill (Zealot needed just one hit but Midnighter was able to prevent her from getting it while succeeding in hitting her). Zealot only shows her lead when she goes for an emotional play. It’s a completely valid tactic, but I wouldn’t call that her outclassing him in a physical exchange. And just like it’s Midnighter is wont to take hits instead of dodge them, Zealot is likely to talk. Bad move on her part, but they both stayed in character and it cost her an opportunity.

I know what your stance is and I simply disagree with the idea that Midnighter doesn’t have wins over or impressive showings against anyone of note. I say Winter you say, “interference”. Hellstrike. “Plot”. Grifter. “Jobbing”. Hawksmoor. “He’s not even as good as Spider-Man”. And, despite the outcome, solid displays against Zealot and Nemesis: “He didn’t beat them so he must not be that good.” Of course with that perspective Midnighter doesn’t have good showings against anyone but fodder and you’ll probably do so until the day you die.

Sorry I didn't responded faster, holiday / family obligations.

Zealot and Nemesis' difficulty tagging Sheba was directly attributed to her ability to read body language on panel. Midighter got Winter in a choke hold of panel, the means and method he used to do so aren't displayed or discussed, leaving us to make assumptions. The situations are a tad different. I think you need to keep in mind the reason the Sheba v Zealot / Nemesis exchange was even brought up in the first place. Several posters stated emphatically that Midnighter's battle computer is better / more effective then telepathy and body reading, but any comparison that can be made between Wildstorm characters with those abilities suggests otherwise. Regis' telepathy trumped Midnighter's computer. Sheba's move reading was shown to be more effective against Zealot and Nemesis together than Midnighter's computer was against either of them on their own. And those aren't the only two showings where Midnighter's battle computer has come off lacking against one of those abilities. Seth - for all his vast powers - beat down Midnighter in seconds with his telepathy and super strength alone. Midnighter didn't even manage to tag him once and it's not as though Seth displayed any degree of super speed or measurable combat skill. We aren't children on the school yard arguing about who's dad is the toughest, you don't need to exaggerate and embellish Midnigher feats to make him relevant or cool (or whatever your goal is) . Looking objectively at Midnighter's feats he is a top tier street level character, he would beat the majority of human level characters (some of them would put of a good fight) but once we start moving up to the low level super human streets, many of them simply have him outclassed. I don't know why you conclusion to be outlandish or personally insulting. Ask yourself this, do you honestly believe that if we were to have a feat war that Midnighter would come out on top of either of these characters? Try not to think about what you feel that Midnighter's battle computer should be able to do, and focus on what it has actually been shown doing. It's not a 10th as effective as people are hyping it up to be, and Midnighter simply doesn't have the feats needed for anyone to successfully argue that he could beat either of these two guys... which is why no one is doing it. You won't even say what your opinion is one way or another and have decided you want argue with me over my interpretation of events, and no one else appears to know enough to back up their opinion so we have a bunch of two word posts simply exclaiming "Midnighter wins!" If anyone actually decided to sit down an make a legitimate case for Midnighter winning they would hit a brick wall so fast, that the only thing left for them to do would be cite PIS feats like "ZOMG Midnighter kicked a tank shell and spit his tooth like a bullet!!!!"

You say the comparison of Sheba's reading ability and Midnighter's battle computer is different because Sheba is agile and fought with guerilla tactics (not exactly true, outside of the Kindred's initial ambush, it was a pretty straight forward exchange, it's not like she was using hit and run strategy and retreating into the woods, she stayed in the pocket and danced around them) but even if that was true, what's you're point exactly? If that is how Midnighter fights why would we expect it to be any different here? Am I supposed to believe that for some reason he will become untouchable in this fight and dance around Slade and Gorgon, despite never showing that is something he capable of doing? Because that is the argument several people have been making. Midnighter isn't Wolverine or Deadpool, his durability and healing factor aren't on the level needed for him to get into an exchange with either of these guys and come out no worse for wear, and he isn't Quicksilver where he has the speed to simple avoid all incoming damage while mounting his own offence... and he certainly isn't both of those things at once like some posters are suggesting. Midnighter simple doesn't heal or move that fast. Zealot managed to stab him in a few panels after weapons came into play, and it was detrimental to his combat abilities even though it was only a flesh wound and nothing fatal. What if Gorgon stabs him in the heart? Or the head? Or the a major artery / organ? What if he opens up Midnighter's stomach? Midnighter's healing factor isn't fast enough for him to take damage like that and continue fighting in any meaningful way, and despite the hopeful dreams / wishful thinking of Midnighter fans, there is nothing in his history that suggests he would be capable of entering into an melee exchange with either Deathstroke or Gorgon and come out unscathed. Gorgon is better than Zealot in almost ever conceivable way, so why would he fair worse against Midnighter than she did in a pure combat scenario with no plot devices to hinder him and with the added benefit of telepathy which has already been shown to, at the very least - nullify the advantage of Midnighter's computer?

Was it the mere act of Helstrike turning his head that afforded Midnighter the opportunity to hit him, or was it the shock of seeing his girl friend having sex? They are two different things, and I believe it was clearly the later. I doubt Midnighter's explosive darts would be enough to distract Helstrike or force him to look away, the blast isn't that powerful, and he wasn't having any trouble incinerating Midnighter's projectiles before the got that close to him. Midnighter's mental deconstruction of Tank Man had more to do with him than Midnighter. He was uniquely susceptible to Midnighter's influence, do you imagine that situation would have played out the same if it had been Iron Man standing over him and not a mental unstable and broken individual who apparently never had to take a psych exam before joining a team of super soldiers?

Regis was inside the building when it was hit, but I doubt he took the brunt of the blast head on, or even indirectly, and in retrospect, looking back knowing how he dies, it seems even more unlikely. Midnighter has dropped Hawksmoor too, and he is a class 2 at best (how much do you think that concrete pillar Tank Man had to free him from weighed?), and Midnighter isn't even the weakest person to have accomplished that especially if we go back to the days of Stormwatch. Outside of beating him up, nothing Regis did on panel supports the idea that he was blatantly above Midnighter in any respect, if Midnighter had actually managed to hit him with anything I imagine it would have done some damage, but all he managed to do was grab onto his forearm briefly. Now, Seth was physically vastly above Midnighter, and had a wide variety of powers. He would have wrecked him even without his telepathy, but Regis? I'm not seeing it. I think he was probably around Midnighter's level physically, there just wasn't anything Midnighter could do because his computer was completely outclassed by telepathy, and we saw in Team Achilles how poor of a fighter he is without the aid of his battle computer.

Birdshot, aka shot. But whatever. Jack has been shown struggling to lift (or at the very least lifting with effort) a couple tons of concrete rubble, and during Stormwatch Black he was described as "near human," which has implicates of much less than class 40 strength. Like Spider-man, 40 tons is above the level that Hawksmoor is typically depicted at. If Hawksmoor had a handbook entry, his base physical stats would conservatively be listed at class around Spider-man level, but it's not like that matters since Handbooks are almost completely irrelevant and routinely inaccurate and dated. Jack had no / horribly mutated genitals that cause people to vomit when glancing at them genitals back in Stormwatch Black when Ellis originally created him. Most of his organs were removed and replaced by the aliens abducted him. The alternate Hawksmoor that King was spying on through the bleed had most / all of his organs returned when he became the Weatherman via Stormwatch resources, I assume something similar happened with the real Hawksmoor or the Doctor gave him his dong back when he joined the Authority, but on the time line he shouldn't have been having sex with women before he joined Stormwatch. Conservatively Hawksmoor is an agile and fast class 10-20, but he isn't as fast or agile and Spider-man and he lacks a Spider-sense. Midnighter having trouble with Hawksmoor in a fight doesn't make him look bad, but it doesn't even remotely support the notion that he could own either Deathstroke or Gorgon individually or as a team.

Nemesis said the inhibitor wasn't slowing Midnighter down, Midnighter never mentioned it effective him in anyway, the Doctor was eating it. We didn't see the neural inhibitor having any noticeable effect on panel, we don't know definitively what it did or if it had any measurable effect at all. It may have impeded Midnighter's abilities, but maybe his healing factor counter acted the effects, we don't know one way or the other. I assumed the inhibitor was responsible for blocking Jack from the Carrier, it's not like Nemesis is a technopath or anything, and if it didn't then it was the most useless plot device in history as it was shown to have 0 effect. I suppose that Savant could have cut them off from the Carrier, but see seemed pretty busy trying to dl that data.

I interpret the initial panel of that exchange as Midnighter hitting the knuckle duster hilt of Zealot's sword, which IMO I would classifiy as a block or a parry. I don't have a problem with you classifying it as hit but I disagree. The fight was only a few panels and IMO Zealot quickly out classed Midnighter, landed the more damaging blows and was walked away fine when all was said and done, where as Midnighter limped away barely able to walk. Also, when was the last time Zealot stop fighting when she had her opponent dead to rites, and started reciting a monologue and let her opponent recover?

On the mater of Grifter v. Midnighter, I would say that Midnighter has only shown himself to be the "superior combatant" in one single exchange. An impartial comparison of the respective histories / appearances of both characters paints a picture of a much more evenly matched fight, even if you believe Midnighter should win in the end. Grifter has fought, faster, stronger, more skilled opponents and fared much better then he was shown in Armageddon. I know you feel would should look at the fight in a bubble and pretend the only thing Grifter has ever done is get tooled by Midnighter, but that is bs. If you look at everything else Grifter as done it's pretty obvious that he should have faired much better against Midnighter, which he did the second time they fought.

Again, I said Midnighter's battle computer has never afforded him a win over anyone of merit, not he hasn't beat anyone or that he hasn't had impressive fights, but that we've never seen his battle computer give him a noticeable advantage over an opponent of any merit. It's just like Batgirl's body reading ability, it lets her dance around fodder and unskilled opponents like she is untouchable... but it's a different story against skilled top tier street level MAs. Shiva can tag her, Canary can tag her, Batman can tag her, Connor can tag her, even Nightwing can tag her. People like to pretend that these abilities are more effective then they are actually shown to be on panel. Midnighter is a low level superhuman with a healing factor, mild super speed and class 2 strength, on those merits alone he should do well against his street level peers, IMO the battle computer simply serves to close the large skill gap most streets hold over Midnighter's head.

@Buckshot said:

Think I'm done with this one. I'm losing interest and I don't want to feel like I'm obligated to get back to anything in a few days (going out of town after christmas) when I'm likely to care even less. Since the walls of text seem to obscure what I'm actually saying, I'm just gonna summarize my stance so its easy see in case I don't come back to clarify anything.

"I understand that it is super impressive that Midnighter mows over 8th string reject ripoffs of established characters with ease (groan), but the reality is Midnighter's battle computer has never (NEVER) afforded him a win over anyone of note. Zealot was able to hold her own against him in melee (and arguably had the advantage) and physically she is at best a low level super human on par with Cap. Hawksmoor has held is own against Midnighter in melee with out amping or using his more exotic powers and he is basicly Spider-man light minus a spider sense. Grifter stalemated him with his peak human stats and low level telepathy. Any time he has fought a mildly established character they have managed to hold their own... and most of the time they have been streets or level metas."

That was the statement I was responding to, particularly the bit about Midnighter "never (NEVER)" winning over anyone of note and certain characters holding their own against him implying a lower level of skill/ability. He won against Winter and Hellstrike (and Blademaster and Strafe, though Blademaster isn't very established) in the same fight. He all but killed Grifter in one fight without being touched by him once. He disarmed and pinned Grifter in their second fight - and Grifter broke out while they were talking and punched him a few times, but like I said, even if they didn't stop fighting, I don't think a couple punches against someone whose flesh was described as concrete, who can take ships crashing on him, and who can block punches from a woman capable of chucking cars, indicates that Grifter was doing very well. He held his own against Hawksmoor in their first fight, and Hawksmoor is a 40 tonner that moves like Spider-Man who was also pissed off while Midnighter was only fighting to cause problems within the team. He was beating Hawksmoor in their second fight (a serious one, though he was smiling the whole time). The only character mentioned that was actually shown beating Midnighter at any point was Zealot, and at the end of the fight she surrenders, and even when she was ahead, it wasn't on pure skill. She needed one hit to win and Midnighter was getting hits in while preventing hers for a few panels, and she finally got hers through an emotional play (and if that's legitimate, Midnighter distracting Hellstrike most certainly was since that didn't even require specific and personal information), not outmaneuvering him physically. I didn't realize this until now, but dastardlyscoundrel wanted to see Midnighter effortlessly trash an established character to prove that he can, but he did it to Grifter (and don't mistake, he did it twice, Grifter only got hits in during their second fight because Midnighter was playing nice and talking to him when he had him pinned), Winter, Hellstrike, and Strafe, and it was called jobbing or PIS. With him being on top in, if not outright winning, most of these fights, even the one against Hawksmoor, I personally think the idea that he only easily beats fodder and "never (NEVER)" beats or does well against established characters is incorrect. Merry Christmas.

The walls of text are getting large, and most of it is border line off topic (of not blatantly so) at this point. I would like to say I appreciate you taking your time to respond to my posts. Even though I think you over rate and exaggerate a lot of Midnighter's showings you are without a doubt knowledgeable of Wildstorm, and you seem to be the only person who can be bothered to post anything significant (even if you won't clearly state what your opinion is).

I think most of this disagreement has largely been a misunderstanding. I said Midnighter's battle computer hasn't afforded him a win over anyone of merit... which is different than me saying Midnighter hasn't beat anyone of merit. I am specifically talking about the advantages afforded to him by his battle computer and disputing the notion that it is a instant win dues ex machina ability that allows him to steam roll everyone. As we've discussed several street level characters have contended with Midnighter in combat and had competitive showings against him. Did Midnighter beat Jack on the Carrier because of his battle computer, or did he just get the better of him in a physical altercation because of a combination of his strength, speed, skill and healing were enough to edge out a base level Jack a slugfest? The two were basically going shot for shot, it isn't like he had a grand strategy in place. Did he beat Zealot because of his battle computer, or was he losing that exchange until Maul interfered? Did he beat Grifter because of his battle computer, or because he was too fast and too strong for Grifter (the way he was portrayed in that particular comic at least). There is a difference between saying Midnighter never beats anyone of merit, and saying he doesn't beat anyone of merit because of his battle computer. Midnighter has wins over people, but it's not because his battle computer completely outclasses the people he is fighting. Several characters have contented with him in combat in spit of that ability, and Deathstroke would do the same thing. Many of the fights he has won have conditions that wouldn't be present in a standard forum match.

Other than the Bladesmaster and Strafe points everything else in this post as been addressed several, and you've already said what I would have said about Bladesmaster being very well established (see was also beaten by Strafe in PHD pretty easy IIRC). As for Strafe, Midnighter was only shown kicking him once before Jackson stepped in for a stare down before Stormwatch and the Authority had to team up and take down Bendix's zombie clones. He busted up Strafe's face and knocked some of his teeth out, but I'm not sure I would classify that as a win.

Had written this before I left but didn't have time to post it. Found it again.

I don’t know how you can separate someone’s ability to dodge something from their physical movements and attribute it solely to information they have. Yes, Sheba could dodge Nemesis and Zealot because of her move reading…but also because she chooses to dodge. What the character does with the information is just as important as what kind of info they get and how they get it. Was Midnighter trying to do that when he fought Nemesis? When he tried to do that against Zealot (because she had her swords out) he did it successfully until she started talking about his daughter. You can’t say Sheba dodged better because of her move reading if Midnighter wasn’t trying to dodge like she was. Yes, the guy who runs will run better than the guy who stands still. That’s the comparison you’re making. You want to say it made Sheba more effective, but aside from dodging, did she actually do better? Did she do any real damage to them? Even though Midnighter lost to Nemesis he was shown hitting her, pinning her, and holding her, and she clearly exerted herself to not get crushed. In his fight with Zealot he did a lot of damage and left her bleeding and with broken bones. You could easily say that Midnighter was more effective offensively, and if we’re attributing everything to their form of ESP (I couldn’t think of a shorter thing to call it), then it’s clearly because his is better.

As for telepathy, Regis’ telepathy and being just plain better than Midnighter allowed him to win (and I'm not sure why with the little evidence that's there you choose to say that Regis wasn't that strong, maybe it fits your placement of Midnighter better). The way the combat computer works, it looks at all that might happen, if there simply was no way for Midnighter to win because Regis was so far above him, then it wouldn’t matter. (also though, I think it’s likely that he knew they’d win anyway, so it’s not that there was no way to win, but that occupying Regis’ time for a little bit, even if he didn’t actually do damage, would still result in a win.) Same for Seth, worse actually because Midnighter didn’t even have something to hit. You may have missed it, but Midnighter did actually hit him (or, he would have if Seth were solid). Right after Seth downs Apollo, Midnighter attacks but his batons go through Seth (you can tell because the batons have a cord between them and they go through his body). The combat computer doesn’t help much if there’s no way to win, that’s why it looks bad against Regis and Seth, not because they have telepathy but because they have telepathy and other things. It’s like with Sheba, you want to make their fights a direct comparison of their form of ESP when there are other things that play a factor. Even if Seth didn’t clearly display intangibility, how could you possibly know that the only thing he used was strength and telepathy? If you’re willing to assume that in Midnighter’s fight with Winter something else was going on even though no one said anything to suggest that, why wouldn’t you assume that a guy bragging about having thousands of random powers (and effortlessly beating every other member of the authority) might not have anything else helping him out?

You can easily compare what ability is better. Look at the issue of his solo series where one writer displays how he sees Midnighter’s ability working. Would move reading provide the information given through the battle computer according to that depiction? Would spider sense? Would telepathy? None of those provide information on what others will do or the chain reactions caused by people’s actions to the extent that issue showed the battle computer does.

You asked about the point of saying that Midnighter fights differently than Sheba and why, if that’s how he fought, he’d fight differently here. The point I was making was that it’s their behavior that created a difference, not their ESP. You were attributing Sheba’s win solely to her ESP when there were other things in play. As for why he’d fight differently, I’m not sure he would. I think he would if he felt like they could take him down in a couple hits because that’s what he’s shown with Zealot. You said he doesn’t have the speed to avoid all incoming damage while mounting his own offense, but in addition to all the times he’s done that against groups of people (and Grifter and Hellstrike and Blademaster) that’s exactly what he was doing to Zealot when the swords came out. He was avoiding her attacks and landing his own on her. She finally stabbed him not because he couldn’t stay ahead of her physically, but because the work her group was doing was a personal challenge to Midnighter’s ability to protect his daughter and she threw that in his face and that pissed him off. With that example, I think if he doesn’t want to get hit by something he’s capable of avoiding it, but in this fight he’d probably take their hits because he could. Midnighter has had a space ship land on him, he’s been hit so hard with one of his own batons (thrown by someone that backhanded Apollo around the world) that it impaled his chest and he took it out and kept fighting, he’s been kicked so hard he was sent flying into a mountain and took it calmly and landed with a gentle flip, he’s gone blow for blow with a watered-down version of Apollo that could chuck cars with ease, he said in that very fight that he spars against Apollo, he’s gone blow for blow with Hawksmoor in more than one fight, etc. He can take hits. I don’t see him getting taken down by the blows of either character in this fight. As shown with Zealot and others, he can avoid hits in close combat if he wants to, but he can also take a high level of damage.

Hellstrike: Since Midnighter can move fast enough to completely wreck an opponent that is looking right at him before they can react, I think that Hellstrike looking away would give Midnighter more than enough time to hit him whether or not he’s surprised by something else once his focus is shifted. As for his explosives not being enough to distract Hellstrike, Midnighter used one to blow out a large room with two superhuman monsters, so I think it would be enough to at least distract someone, and if you look at his fight with Hellstrike again, he only gets the very closest shuriken, so others could get by an blow up. Lol, Iron Man is a bad example, he’s a basket case he just hides it well, but the point isn’t that he can make anyone break down the same way, but that he can find a distraction if he decides it would help him out, whether it be physical, psychological or a mixture.

You want to call Jack “near human” even though his punches have made Superman bleed, swords break against his skin, acid eating through the Carrier didn’t phase him, he’s engaged Fuji h2h in the desert, he staggered Donna Troy with a punch, he can plow through tanks just by falling on them, he can shrug off getting hit by a wrecking ball and toss tanker trucks while weakened? One statement of him being “near human” at his beginnings doesn’t overrule those examples of him physically being far above human and other doctors who have looked at him calling him superhuman. His strength and durability are high enough that Regis easily backhanding him to the ground suggests that Regis’ body is quite powerful itself, even if you disregard him being unphased by Jenny Sparks’ palace demolishing strike. And even forgetting those examples of Jack’s physical power, you say he lifted that rubble (I’m assuming you’re talking about in Revolutions) with effort? Is it because his teeth are bared? I think, given that his eyes are glowing red and his team just got their asses kicked and Swift nearly died (and he was ready to kill people just to catch her from falling out of the sky) that he was simply mad. Add those perfectly legitimate reasons for him to be mad to his other feats of strength and I think it makes more sense that he was angry, not reaching the limit of his strength. Maybe if he had grunted or hadn’t tossed away the rubble, I might see it your way, but knowing he’s demonstrated more strength, knowing he just lost a fight and maybe a friend, seeing his eyes get red like they do every now and then when he gets emotional (plus just the general connection between red and anger), and not even seeing a grunt that letterers try to throw in at the slightest opportunity, I go more toward anger than effort. On the precog thing, I admit, it’s hard to tell what’s precog and what’s just a more complete view of what’s happening right at that moment. What’s time and what’s space can get tricky. When Jack knows an enemy is about to walk into a room or that someone bad is watching him, is that precog or just a greater view of the present? I don’t think it matters if the result is the same, but Bendix called it precog and a narrator in one story called it “divining the future”, so I call it precog too. Really though, if Spider-Man isn’t looking and knows an enemy is going to throw a punch at the back of his head, it’s the same as if Hawksmoor just knows that someone is behind him getting ready to punch him, whether he can see the act before it happens, or if the floor feels someone walking towards him and tells him, or if the windows nearby see the guy lifting his arm and alerts him. And either way, Jack has dodged bullets, so whether it’s a combination of speed and foreknowledge or just speed, he able to ape the advantages “real” precog provides. But again, since it’s been stated more than once that he has some sort of foresight and something like it has been shown, I’m giving him credit for it.

I’m gonna give Jack’s penis its own paragraph here. Why do you assume that Jack having strange looking junk means he can’t have sex? People have sex with aliens all the time (in comics). The only person he has sex with is Angie, and she is certainly equipped to deal with any kind of funky phallus she could come across. Actually, that’s not true, Jack had sex with another girl he used to know, and that was before Secret History and any potential retcon. Jack has weird junk, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have sex. Someone throwing up at the sight of his stuff doesn’t mean it doesn’t work enough for him and someone else to enjoy it. I honestly don’t get how you decide when you want to insert complete speculation and when decide its time to jump on anything that’s not explicitly stated regardless of how logical it is. You just assumed that they gave him a penis without anyone mentioning it?

Nemesis said the inhibitor wasn’t slowing Midnighter down, but that just means he’s still a physical threat. He was pissed and still coming at her with dangerous blows. Her assessment doesn’t actually say anything about his mental ability. And like you said, if it wasn’t affecting their use of the Carrier and it wasn’t doing anything else, it was a useless plot device, so why not believe that the thing they said in bold inhibits neural activity, actually did what it said?

Are you saying that when armed, Zealot was outperforming Midnighter based solely on physical ability? Zealot talks a lot. I don’t think I need to prove that (or that it even really matters since she lost the fight by her own admission, she wasn’t winning on skill alone, and the tactic she used to get ahead couldn’t be reproduced anyway so it’s not like she would have necessarily gotten to that point if she hadn’t been able to say she could have protected his daughter better than he could and have it be true enough to tick him off) but I thought I’d look. In the latest volume of wildcats, first issue, she beating some chick (had already cut off her hand) and in the panel right before she cuts her in half, she spends 3 word balloons and a whole panel talking. Issue 5 of the second volume of wildcats she’s surrounded by Coda warriors and she spends 5 balloons and a panel talking about what the mighty Coda sisterhood she founded have fallen and why she’s their target. I’ll admit she didn’t have them all down yet, but she thought she did (her confidence is revealed in the panels after) and the leader of her enemies actually says “nice exposition, sister”. Later in that fight after she’s killed them all except the leader, she spreads this out over 3 panels “There it is…the final desparate action…born of uncontrollable anger…a cliché. I will not waste my anger on you.” Then she slits her throat like nothing. She tried a similar thing in volume 1 but in that fight Helspont snuck up behind her and psychically blasted her. A little later in volume one (in the first appearance of Majestic) she has a pin-up page of her telling Tapestry she’s about to beat her, but that turns into a longer fight. I didn’t search exhaustedly for these, but I think it’s enough to show that when Zealot is confident of where she is in a fight, she talks like it’s over. After looking at a few more fights I actually noticed something. She doesn’t talk much during battle, she saves it for when she’s going to finish someone. She’s even chided Grifter for talking during a fight. So if she’s really talking, she thinks it’s done, whether it is or not.

I don’t know why you say I’m looking at the Midnighter/Grifter fights in a bubble. You presented all these fights to basically say, “If Midnighter can’t easily trash these established characters, why would he do it to Deathstroke or Gorgon.” So I looked at those fights and Midnighter does effortlessly trash Grifter, but now you want it to be about something else.

I don’t know how you’d want it to be shown that it’s solely Midnighter’s combat computer that gives him wins, because that seems to be what you want. His ability is not visible and its something he’s always using, so I don’t get how you’d say any win was more or less because of his combat computer. Take that issue of his I mentioned before, if you read that the normal way it would be like every other one of his fights, but reading it back to front the way it was printed, it shows how Midnighter’s power works according to one writer. He sees the ending he wants from all the possible ones and works backwards to get it, like he says in his speech at the end/beginning of that issue. If he does the right thing he gets from point a to point b without incident, but there’s no way to really see that unless you do that for every fight, even then though I’d say you’re missing an aspect of it because you only get to see one possible way the fight could go and you wouldn’t really see him rejecting the others. There’s one character named Freestyle and her powers worked like Midnighter’s except she actually lived through all the possible realities until she found a usable outcome (she couldn’t actually stop if she didn’t find a good ending and she’d die if it took too long) and in one comic they portrayed it in a cool way where they showed a wrong one play out in a red tint or something then, then a not too bad one played out in yellow, then a good one played out in green so you could see them all, but I imagine even if they did that for Midnighter people would just say “it’s just a simulation, it’s not what would really happen”. Discounting the fight with Nemesis (because it was clearly stated that Midnighter was subjected to a neural inhibitor), the only fight I can see anyone saying he should have done better in is the one against Zealot, and not only does she surrender in that fight, but she doesn't get in her one good hit on skill alone, Midnighter gets shown up because of an emotional vulnerability, not a lack of ability. Yeah, they had a long fight, but sometimes characters fight a long time because it's more fun (and I'm sure if Midnighter owned Zealot as badly as he owned Grifter someone would be as bothered about Zealot losing as you are that Grifter did). Other than that, and really, all that to say, Midnighter does display easy wins against "z-listers" and established characters like Winter and Grifter (and even does well against foes physically out of his league like Hawksmoor) and since you can't really determine how much his combat computer is doing because of its invisible but ubiquitous nature, I don't really think you can say his combat computer doesn't afford him wins of merit.

@CitizenBane said:

Midnighter, though the combination of Slade and Tomi makes it close.

midnighter wins this ez

@thedastardlyscoundrel: and youre an idiot

@thedastardlyscoundrel: and youre an idiot

Midnighter 6/10

@Nefarious said:

Midnighter kills both after a nice fight.

Still not fooling anyone, Hobo.

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

Hawksmoor stalemated Midighter once, and then lost a close battle back and forth battle with him on the carrier, a powerless Grifter lost to Midnighter, but stalemated him with the aid of his Gen Factor abilities in their second fight, Zealot stalemated or had the slight advantage in h2h over Midnighter in round one, and round 2 she clearly had the advantage in combat with her weapons and Midnighter only one via interference, and even then he still was worse for ware than Zealot was, limping, holding his side and bleeding all over the Carrier. We know what those characters are capable of, we've seen their feats... but the consensus seems to beat that even though Midnighter is depicted as have even back and fourth fights with those characters, that he would stomp Deathstroke like the no name fodder Midnighter typically fights? Why? Because he has a battle computer? Please. Midnighter's battle computer simple is not that effective. Yes it's really impressive how Midnighter kills lots of fodder, but when he fights a real superhero with feats of their own he doesn't preform nearly as well

.

What strength, speed, healing, skill or battle computer feats does Midnighter have that suggest he could take a comfortable majority from Slade? None. The tank shell kick and tooth bullet are PIS, and even if we pretend they aren't (and pretend Slade's PIS aren't either), what do either of those have that even holds a candle to tagging he Flash? Does anyone here truly believe that Midnighter would win a scan war against Deathstroke? That if you compared the most impressive accomplishments of both characters, that Midnighter will end up with the more impressive list? Get real.

sometimes PIS needs to be dismissed, people like Deathstrooke and Wolverine also come with their PIS feats

@CitizenBane said:

Midnighter, though the combination of Slade and Tomi makes it close.

bump

@Erik said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Static Shock: Sry, but it sounds a little odd that this computer knows that Gorgons stare will be fatal, since it appears to be a passive ability (unless this computer somehow has a link to external databases).

The computer has some sort of scanner that allows it to assess what the opponent can do concerning powers and abilities.... as stupid as it sounds.

And it sounds VERY stupid. Can you imagine the kind of sensors needed to quantify an opponent instantly and know all their powers? Makes no sense unless it is magical in nature of from the way extreme future.

The computer should be less useful against Slade as his mind does the same thing.

Midnighter

@robertloucksjr said:

@Erik said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Static Shock: Sry, but it sounds a little odd that this computer knows that Gorgons stare will be fatal, since it appears to be a passive ability (unless this computer somehow has a link to external databases).

The computer has some sort of scanner that allows it to assess what the opponent can do concerning powers and abilities.... as stupid as it sounds.

And it sounds VERY stupid. Can you imagine the kind of sensors needed to quantify an opponent instantly and know all their powers? Makes no sense unless it is magical in nature of from the way extreme future.

The computer should be less useful against Slade as his mind does the same thing.

It always amazes me where people draw the line on what is acceptable and what isn't when discussing fiction. If it makes you feel better, Midnighter's combat computer was created by what basically amounts to the evil Reed Richards of his universe who had in fact done a good bit of time traveling in his life and also communicated with higher beings early on in his life. And Slade's mind doesn't do quite the same thing (and I find it funny that you call it VERY stupid but turn around and swallow it without question in the case of Slade's brain).

Gorgon defeats Midnighter then proceeds to kill Deathstroke. Gorgon is a beast.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Gorgon defeats Midnighter then proceeds to kill Deathstroke. Gorgon is a beast.

Doubt that.

While he is a beast, he's not bested anyone anywhere near Midnighter (before DC grabbed hold of him and lobotomized him) let alone a feat enabling him to drop both Slade and Midnighter at once. (And no, Wolverine does not count.)

Would be a great scrap though. I do think Gorgon and Slade together might steal a majority.

Midnighter's battle computer might simply tell him to get the hell out of dodge this time and live to fight another day.

Lol.

@robertloucksjr said:

@Erik said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Static Shock: Sry, but it sounds a little odd that this computer knows that Gorgons stare will be fatal, since it appears to be a passive ability (unless this computer somehow has a link to external databases).

The computer has some sort of scanner that allows it to assess what the opponent can do concerning powers and abilities.... as stupid as it sounds.

And it sounds VERY stupid. Can you imagine the kind of sensors needed to quantify an opponent instantly and know all their powers? Makes no sense unless it is magical in nature of from the way extreme future.

The computer should be less useful against Slade as his mind does the same thing.

Only new 52 deathstroke had precog. Pre flashpoint slade did not.

@Buckshot said:

@robertloucksjr said:

@Erik said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Static Shock: Sry, but it sounds a little odd that this computer knows that Gorgons stare will be fatal, since it appears to be a passive ability (unless this computer somehow has a link to external databases).

The computer has some sort of scanner that allows it to assess what the opponent can do concerning powers and abilities.... as stupid as it sounds.

And it sounds VERY stupid. Can you imagine the kind of sensors needed to quantify an opponent instantly and know all their powers? Makes no sense unless it is magical in nature of from the way extreme future.

The computer should be less useful against Slade as his mind does the same thing.

It always amazes me where people draw the line on what is acceptable and what isn't when discussing fiction. If it makes you feel better, Midnighter's combat computer was created by what basically amounts to the evil Reed Richards of his universe who had in fact done a good bit of time traveling in his life and also communicated with higher beings early on in his life. And Slade's mind doesn't do quite the same thing (and I find it funny that you call it VERY stupid but turn around and swallow it without question in the case of Slade's brain).

Slade basically does what Batman does, only more so, and uses his brain to figure out the likely scenarios of how the fight will go. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he does not magically know about them. He also just plays percentage rather than 'know' what will happen.

@robertloucksjr said:

Slade basically does what Batman does, only more so, and uses his brain to figure out the likely scenarios of how the fight will go. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he does not magically know about them. He also just plays percentage rather than 'know' what will happen.

So are you saying Slade can do what Midnighter can and it's not ridiculous when he does it or that Slade can't do what Midnighter can and Midnighter doing it is ridiculous?

@jashro44 said:

@robertloucksjr said:

@Erik said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Static Shock: Sry, but it sounds a little odd that this computer knows that Gorgons stare will be fatal, since it appears to be a passive ability (unless this computer somehow has a link to external databases).

The computer has some sort of scanner that allows it to assess what the opponent can do concerning powers and abilities.... as stupid as it sounds.

And it sounds VERY stupid. Can you imagine the kind of sensors needed to quantify an opponent instantly and know all their powers? Makes no sense unless it is magical in nature of from the way extreme future.

The computer should be less useful against Slade as his mind does the same thing.

Only new 52 deathstroke had precog. Pre flashpoint slade did not.

52 Slade has pre cog?

@Sideslash said:

I don't know which way this would go, but it'll be very slight.

@Super_SoldierXII:

Gorgon has telepathy. That alone would prove very difficult for Midnighter, who has displayed problems before versus telepathy. His battle computer won't help when Gorgon can read his every move, basically counteracting the battle computer's abilities. Also, I wonder why doesn't Wolverine count as a feat? Gorgon was able to sneak up on him and kill him. Also people tend to forget Gorgon is a super genius and has a healing factor comparable to Wolverine's. Not to mention, he's fast enough to react to speedsters. There was already another thread where it was Gorgon vs Midnighter, and I believer the general concensus was that Gorgon would win due to his telepathy and healing factor.

@Eightworldwarriors: Its a little early to tell but it seems like it to me. In deathstroke #9 he said he knows your moves before you make them. Not sure if other writers are going to carry this idea over. I think its because there setting up a rivalry with midnighter...Its described to be similar to midnighters battle computer.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

Gorgon has telepathy. That alone would prove very difficult for Midnighter, who has displayed problems before versus telepathy. His battle computer won't help when Gorgon can read his every move, basically counteracting the battle computer's abilities. Also, I wonder why doesn't Wolverine count as a feat? Gorgon was able to sneak up on him and kill him. Also people tend to forget Gorgon is a super genius and has a healing factor comparable to Wolverine's. Not to mention, he's fast enough to react to speedsters. There was already another thread where it was Gorgon vs Midnighter, and I believer the general concensus was that Gorgon would win due to his telepathy and healing factor.

Midnighter is immune to telepathy both Wildstorm and 52 versions

Which thread are you talking about that the concensus was Gorgon would beat Midnighter? Link please

@jashro44: I wish you didn't show me that, you almost blinded me with Rob Leifelds artwork

@jashro44:

I personally don't think its a battle computer. It is merely showing how Deathstroke's mind operates, since his brain has been augmented, so has his ability to deduce, react, and rationalize events unfolding before him. His brain is operating on a superhuman level, helping him predict their movements, not through precognition. Midnighter has a literal battle computer in his head, which goes through multiple calculations and scenarios. Deathstroke just has an enhanced operating system which allows him to be more tactical.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

Gorgon has telepathy. That alone would prove very difficult for Midnighter, who has displayed problems before versus telepathy. His battle computer won't help when Gorgon can read his every move, basically counteracting the battle computer's abilities. Also, I wonder why doesn't Wolverine count as a feat? Gorgon was able to sneak up on him and kill him. Also people tend to forget Gorgon is a super genius and has a healing factor comparable to Wolverine's. Not to mention, he's fast enough to react to speedsters. There was already another thread where it was Gorgon vs Midnighter, and I believer the general concensus was that Gorgon would win due to his telepathy and healing factor.

Wolverine doesn't count because he's not a just comparison to a bloke like Midnighter and as mentioned above, TP should not prove too problematic for MN (especially not the lower end variety Tomi brings to the table) ... though if Wolverine continues to be handled the way he was in 2012, I'd say he's way on the road to redemption. He's accumulated come fairly impressive feats this year.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jashro44:

I personally don't think its a battle computer. It is merely showing how Deathstroke's mind operates, since his brain has been augmented, so has his ability to deduce, react, and rationalize events unfolding before him. His brain is operating on a superhuman level, helping him predict their movements, not through precognition. Midnighter has a literal battle computer in his head, which goes through multiple calculations and scenarios. Deathstroke just has an enhanced operating system which allows him to be more tactical.

I suppose it could be an advanced move reading ability thinking about it now. All though he was also able to determine some creature was alien just by looking at it as well in the same issue. Maybe he was making guesses but I'm not so sure...We should probably wait until he gets more showings with this ability.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jashro44:

I personally don't think its a battle computer. It is merely showing how Deathstroke's mind operates, since his brain has been augmented, so has his ability to deduce, react, and rationalize events unfolding before him. His brain is operating on a superhuman level, helping him predict their movements, not through precognition. Midnighter has a literal battle computer in his head, which goes through multiple calculations and scenarios. Deathstroke just has an enhanced operating system which allows him to be more tactical.

I agree to this. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he is not infallible, just much more likely to be correct. Midnighter seems nearly infallible in this respect.

@Buckshot said:

@robertloucksjr said:

Slade basically does what Batman does, only more so, and uses his brain to figure out the likely scenarios of how the fight will go. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he does not magically know about them. He also just plays percentage rather than 'know' what will happen.

So are you saying Slade can do what Midnighter can and it's not ridiculous when he does it or that Slade can't do what Midnighter can and Midnighter doing it is ridiculous?

No, I am saying Slade does not know opponents powers or extent of known powers without previous knowledge and thus can't factor them into battle projections. He is also much more fallible than Midnighter and can't forecast a fight nearly as far ahead.

Midnighter. He plays all possible scenarios in his head just buy having a conversation with them.

@robertloucksjr said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jashro44:

I personally don't think its a battle computer. It is merely showing how Deathstroke's mind operates, since his brain has been augmented, so has his ability to deduce, react, and rationalize events unfolding before him. His brain is operating on a superhuman level, helping him predict their movements, not through precognition. Midnighter has a literal battle computer in his head, which goes through multiple calculations and scenarios. Deathstroke just has an enhanced operating system which allows him to be more tactical.

I agree to this. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he is not infallible, just much more likely to be correct. Midnighter seems nearly infallible in this respect.

Well his battle computer gas always been a bit of a deus ex machina in terms of analyzing threats... Presumably it is incredibly fast and throrough at analyzing threats like new foes through an exhaustive scanning procedure.

@Cochise said:

@robertloucksjr said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@jashro44:

I personally don't think its a battle computer. It is merely showing how Deathstroke's mind operates, since his brain has been augmented, so has his ability to deduce, react, and rationalize events unfolding before him. His brain is operating on a superhuman level, helping him predict their movements, not through precognition. Midnighter has a literal battle computer in his head, which goes through multiple calculations and scenarios. Deathstroke just has an enhanced operating system which allows him to be more tactical.

I agree to this. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he is not infallible, just much more likely to be correct. Midnighter seems nearly infallible in this respect.

Well his battle computer gas always been a bit of a deus ex machina in terms of analyzing threats... Presumably it is incredibly fast and throrough at analyzing threats like new foes through an exhaustive scanning procedure.

I am a computer programmer and they at their best in well defined scenarios. Battle is anything but. And I can't even fathom the scanning. What powers it? What is the send and receive methods? How does it handle things like environmental factors/objects in the way/armor/force fields/non-human physiology/magic interference/movement/etc. Even if it finds something, how does it decide what it is, what it does, and how powerful it is at what it does.

Not sure how the technology they had access to can do that. I can't think of any way that Tony Stark and Reed Richards could.

@robertloucksjr said:

@Buckshot said:

@robertloucksjr said:

Slade basically does what Batman does, only more so, and uses his brain to figure out the likely scenarios of how the fight will go. He can't forecast powers he does not know about and he does not magically know about them. He also just plays percentage rather than 'know' what will happen.

So are you saying Slade can do what Midnighter can and it's not ridiculous when he does it or that Slade can't do what Midnighter can and Midnighter doing it is ridiculous?

No, I am saying Slade does not know opponents powers or extent of known powers without previous knowledge and thus can't factor them into battle projections. He is also much more fallible than Midnighter and can't forecast a fight nearly as far ahead.

See that's what I thought, but earlier you said "The computer should be less useful against Slade as his mind does the same thing."

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

Gorgon has telepathy. That alone would prove very difficult for Midnighter, who has displayed problems before versus telepathy. His battle computer won't help when Gorgon can read his every move, basically counteracting the battle computer's abilities. Also, I wonder why doesn't Wolverine count as a feat? Gorgon was able to sneak up on him and kill him. Also people tend to forget Gorgon is a super genius and has a healing factor comparable to Wolverine's. Not to mention, he's fast enough to react to speedsters. There was already another thread where it was Gorgon vs Midnighter, and I believer the general concensus was that Gorgon would win due to his telepathy and healing factor.

Midnighter had trouble with someone with telepathy who also physically outclassed him to an immense degree, which Gorgon does not. If we're talking about Gorgon's telepathy, it didn't stop Wolverine from tricking him into killing himself, so I don't assume it will let him easily counter the combat computer.

@robertloucksjr said:

I am a computer programmer and they at their best in well defined scenarios. Battle is anything but. And I can't even fathom the scanning. What powers it? What is the send and receive methods? How does it handle things like environmental factors/objects in the way/armor/force fields/non-human physiology/magic interference/movement/etc. Even if it finds something, how does it decide what it is, what it does, and how powerful it is at what it does.

Not sure how the technology they had access to can do that. I can't think of any way that Tony Stark and Reed Richards could.

How is that more ridiculous than technology that lets one communicate with a city or control machines that can literally turn into anything with a thought? And I have no problem thinking Henry Bendix is smarter than Stark or Reed.

@Dacce said:

Deathstroke is enough

nope

@Renny said:

Gorgon could solo

nope. not even close

My guess Midnighter

bump