Gorgon and Deathstroke vs Midnighter

@Buckshot said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel:

Midnighter still had his computer when he fought Winter, and I mentioned that he was basically saying what his computer would tell him when fighting Hellstrike because that was the fight he didn't have it for. As for Midnighter only being able to beat Winter in a free for all, I think the assumption there is that Winter wasn't fighting at his best because there were other thing going on, but considering that that's how lots of team fights go, it's not something he shouldn't be prepared for. Their fight had no interaction with anyone else's that we saw, so blaming the loss on it being a team fight instead of Midnighter's ability seems to just be an unwillingness to give Midnighter credit. Even if it was the case that it being a free for all distracted Winter for whatever reason, it would only show that Midnighter can better handle lots of stimuli at once and focus on his target. Maybe if someone did something to cause Winter to lose I'd agree with you, but it seems like Midnighter won it on his own merit. The idea that a flying energy character would beat Midnighter just because he's a flying energy character is precisely the mentality that Hellstrike verbalized and Midnighter used his brain (by distracting Hellstrike's focus) and beat him easily.

More data is always beneficial sure, but that's not what anyone who uses the fodder argument attempts to say. Instead of looking at what the myriad of Midnighters fights against dozens of enemies at once do show, it's all written off as "fodder" and disregarded even though the fights demonstrate his ability and he has more fights against recurring characters than are recognized.

You're saying it's hard to believe he'd stomp Deathstroke because he hasn't stomped street level characters, but in the comic where he was allowed to beat Grifter, he cripples him. He choked out Winter, who is an energy powerhouse. He's beaten Hellstrike with ease even though he had range and flight on him. He took down the Merc's tank like nothing. He's beaten Hawksmoor more too. Looking at your list of people you'd want to see him beat in order to say he'd stand a chance against Deathstroke, he beat two of them and at least stalemated the third (though it's my opinion that he beat Zealot since the fight ended with him holding her sword to her neck and him telling her to back off).

I know Hawksmoor amps his stats but that's why I referenced his showings when his ability to amp his stats via the city were removed. He specifically said he couldn't do things such as manipulate gravity and yet he still performed at a significantly superhuman level and he had been battered and beaten when he did that, not in prime condition like he was on the Carrier when Midnighter was beating him. Spider-Man's simply not on his level. Zealot is bulletproof up to armor piercing rounds as she revealed when her sister was shot. The only other time I can remember her getting shot (instead of dodging or blocking the bullets) was when she was hunting down the Coda. She was injured then, but they were prepared to fight her so I assume they were using rounds that could kill her. I made no statement about who finished Grifter off, but Midnighter clearly dominated him every time they had an interaction. When they appear, Grifter draws a gun and Midnighter breaks his arm. While Grifter is bleeding on the ground Midnighter goes to kill someone and Grifter draws a gun again and aims at the back of Midnighter's head but before he can do anything, Midnighter rushes him, disarms him, and has his hands on Grifter's skull, ready to crush it. Midnighter gets a flaming Apollo (smh...) hurled into his back and is laying on the ground in a small crater but still manages to put a shuriken in Grifter's neck and spine. Apollo finishes him off, but Midnighter was never at Grifter's mercy. Grifter can't make the same claim. As for his confidence, it means absolutely nothing. Grifter had his gun on Midnighter twice before that and both times Midnighter closed the gap and laid Grifter out. Grifter was confident both of those times and it didn't do him any good. Even if he had fired, Midnighter has avoided bullets time after time. His very first appearance had him avoiding all the bullets of a gun that could not miss. And even if he had been shot, he's been shot when his powers were reduced and the bullets looked like they bounced off him. And EVEN IF the bullets had gone into him and done damage, he has an amazing healing factor and multiple redundant systems. Grifter could have been 100% correct in his claim that Midnighter couldn't avoid a bullet (he wasn't, let's just be clear on that) and it still wouldn't have mattered. I don't know if I'd use any variation of the word "friendly" when talking about Midnighter and Grifter, but their personalities were a little exaggerated.

As for Nemesis and Zealot being able to fight Midnighter and not Sheba, I don't think you're considering the differences in character and situation. Midnighter is far more direct in his offense while Sheba plays up her agility. Not that Midnighter never avoids attacks, but he's been quoted as saying "dodging is for amateurs", while Sheba bounces around a lot when she fights. She was also using one combatant as a platform to strike the other from while being between them both. Zealot and Nemesis were fighting within blades reach of each other instead of just against their opponent. Given Sheba's agility and their proximity, I'm not surprised it was hard for them to land hits on her but easy to hit an enemy that's relentless in his attacks and usually right in his enemy's face. Another thing to consider, the fight with Sheba lasted all of two panels, while they both fought Midnighter for pages (and Zealots fight took hours). I don't know what would have happened with a prolonged fight, but I don't think them missing her for two panels mean they always would.

Cool, I got a Touched by God thing because he responded to me... not sure what it does though.

Can I ask what your opinion of this fight is? You seem to be knowledgeable of Wildstorm and we've been debating our interpretations of showings, but I don't think you've said what you think will happen yet. Do you believe that Deathstroke or Gorgon can't potentially beat Midnighter in a one on one exchange like some of the other posters here?

I'm not "blaming" the loss on it being a team fight or a free for all, merely stating there is context to the instance that needs to be acknowledged. In your original post you essentially said Midnighter beat Winter / Hellfire, and that was it. Simply saying "Midnighter beat Winter leaves out a key piece of information. We didn't see how Midnighter got that dominate position over Winter, it happened off panel and I personally believe the fact that it was large fight with many players on the board likely played a factor. I think the possibility that Winter and Midnighter were going mono e mono and Midnighter managed to put him in that hold is very unlikely, and its very probable he ambushed or blinded side him while he was engaged with another opponent, but the fact is we simply don't know one way or another. Same goes for the "fight" with Hellstrike. Midnighter beat Hellstrike via a plot device, it worked well with in the context of the issue but it's not something that could happen in a standard forum match. I fell like you simple stating "He beat Hellstrike" without acknowledging the context involved is very misleading. It would be like if I said "Wolverine beat Gorgon." and didn't bother clarifying or acknowledging the events that lead up to his hail marry pass victory.

I just don't see how based on his feats and showings against his peers anyone can come to the conclusion that Midnighter would stomp Slade. The are pretty much the same character... except Slade accomplishes his feats against members of the JLA, with crazy feats of their own. The claims about the effectiveness of Midnighter's battle computer are completely unsubstantiated, his power simply is not as effective in practice as people are pretending it is. Midnighter has spent his career doing what Slade is doing right now in the DCnU, violently killing scores of essentially no body characters so that he can appear to be "badass." People are pretending that Midnigher is going to treat Slade the same way he treats one of the third string X-Men or Avengers rip-offs he routinely kills, but that is bs. I don't see how anyone can look at Deathstroke's history, acknowledge the fact that Midnighter has had completive fights with several characters like Zealot or Grifter that could have swung either way and then say with confidence that Midnighter would stomp Deathstroke (I am aware you yourself never actually said this, but others in this post have).

Without amping Jack isn't much more then an agile class 10-20, with low level super speed and agility. I really don't see how his default attributes are above Spider-mans. If you have issue numbers you can cite so I can check them out I would be appreciative.

I don't know the instance you are referring to off the top of my head. I remember Nemesis saying that Grifter would need "a bigger gun" if he was going fight her, but that I wouldn't take that to mean she was bullet proof, especially since she still used her force field generator to block his bullets. Anyway I know that Zealot his been shot before, most famously in the events bridging the gab between Wildcats v1 and v2, that she used to fake her death, and then there is the instance you referenced (also I bet if we thought hard about it we could come up with more between us). So unless she has actually been seen shrugging off bullets, I would say that examples of her being shot trump rhetoric of her saying she is bullet proof. We are getting off topic with this branch of discussion though.

I think it implications are supposed to be that in the first two instances Midnighter was close enough to Grifter that he could get to him before Cole could get off a shot of, but in the third he had enough distance to take the shot without getting blitzed. At least that is how I interpreted it. Even with Midnighter's healing factor (which is rather anemic rather to some characters) and his speed feats (he doesn't have nearly as many bullet dodging examples as you claim, I can only think of two off the top of my head), I believe that Cole has the potential to shot Midnighter, and if he hit the right place, that could potentially be enough to Midnighter down for enough time to constitute a win. That issue was kind of bs anyway, I know Cole didn't have any of his Gen Factor abilities, but based on his history he should have fared better than he did. This is a guy who has taken on Backlash and Zealot in h2h even sans powers, instead he got treated like he was the Punisher or something. The brief fight in the team up is much more indicative of how a fight would realistically play out between the two, if you were going to be faithful to Midnighter's history and Coles.

Also Midnighter never avoided bullets from the so called "gun that can never miss" at least not on panel. Midnighter took the shooter out with his projectiles without ever engaging him directly. I'm not sure if that guy ever got a chance to fire that gun at Midnighter and Apollo.

@thedastardlyscoundrel:

If we don't know what happened with Midnighter and Winter and all we can see is that Midnighter beat him, what's the problem with me saying Midnighter beat him as if that's all it was? It wasn't a multi-page thing, it was what we were shown. Midnighter stated it matter of factly as well. You're assuming other people had some impact on it when that's not shown, and like I said, even if other people were involved, Midnighter would also have to deal with it and if something else happened, it just showed that he dealt with it better. I don't think I'm misleading anyone with my statements on Hellstrike. Midnighter distracted him. Yes, it's not something that happens in every fight, but Midnighter saw something he could use to distract Hellstrike for a second and get a free hit. It's not like that can't happen in other fights. Would you accept it if Midnighter threw an explosive dart and Hellstrike had to look away for a second? That distraction could easily be put in place of telling him to look at someone having sex in the middle of the fight. Midnighter basically told Hellstrike to look away. That's as much him playing on Hellstrike's mind and Hellstrike failing to keep focused as it is a "plot device". I think Midnighter could easily duplicate his victory over Hellstrike without a lesbian on the battlefield. What it seems to me is that when characters don't have enough showings and Midnighter beats them, it's meaningless because they opponents are fodder. But if Midnighter beats characters with plenty of history, it must be diminished for some other reason to maintain the view that Midnighter isn't really all that good because that's how some people like to see him.

If it's your opinion that Midnighter is the same character as Slade, good for you. If you don't agree with some people's thoughts on who Midnighter can beat, talk to the people you disagree with.

You didn't even know about Jack's physical attributes until I posted but you're still ready to make claims about his abilities as if what I've posted didn't happen. A tanker trailer like the one Jack threw is like 40 tons. That's not getting into the physics of throwing it as far as he did, just lifting it since I don't want to read too much into the feat (and working out the feat more than doubles the strength estimate). That puts him above your estimate of strength. Still don't see how he can have attributes above Spider-Man's? How about if I reiterate that he was shot in the torso, with a shotgun, at close range, twice, and was getting up seconds later? You seem set on saying Hawksmoor is Spider-Man lite, but even at his weakest, with all his other powers off, he's still more physically robust that Spider-Man. Give him his powers like he's got them 99% of the time and he can mess with gravity and make himself much stronger, and he can mess with his density and make himself stronger and more durable. Midnighter fought Jack when he was fully functional. He may not have been able to control the structure of the Carrier, but he was still in better shape than he was when he did the feats that I mentioned. There's no guide for the Wildstorm characters and even if there was, I doubt they'd give you numbers for Jack in a depowered state, but really, you should be able to see his abilities without a guide.

After Grifter shot Savant (when she got in the way of him shooting Tao), Zealot took her to get patched up and it was revealed that normally they're able to take bullets without an issue, but Grifter was using armor-piercing rounds, which is why Savant was injured. And the instances of her being shot that we've referenced are the greatest group of assassin on Earth who are trying to kill her and lead by someone of her own race, and a group of technologically enhanced monsters with guns. From all that, I think it makes more sense to say that she knows what she's talking about, the Coda aren't idiots and used ammunition that would hurt their target, and the enemies in volume 2 had bullets commensurate to the rest of their tech, so probably better than normal. You think it makes more sense that her words were untrue when nothing of the other option requires any sort of major leap in logic? I don't see why people like to make things harder than they are when there are explanations that fit with character statements in the world of the comic.

Of course you're going to interpret something so that it diminishes Midnighter's abilities, but c'mon, Grifter got manhandled twice before while aiming a gun at Midnighter. Midnighter dominated him more than once in that appearance, but you don't want to acknowledge that for whatever reason. You think a bullet would actually stop Midnighter even though they've bounced off his shoulder in the past, he's healed from a broken neck, and he could simply dodge them if he chose. It makes no sense to me, but you can believe it if you want. Sure, Grifter had the potential to shoot Midnighter, and that potential was never realized. Midnighter had the potential to wreck Grifter, and that was realized 3 times in the same fight. As for Midnighter dodging bullets, all I said was that he dodges bullets "time after time". You say he doesn't have as many examples of dodging bullets as I claim, but my claim would only require he have two. This is what instantly jumped to mind: He dodges the bullets of a chick with targeting enhancements. He dodges the bullets (along with many other projectiles also being fired at him at the time) of an enemy when he takes on a group of wanna-be x-men. He blocks bullets with his staff when fighting the army. He avoids a living laser (several times) that changes its direction to follow him and is never more than an arm's length away. And of course, his first appearance. You said he was never directly engaged and that the gun that could never miss wasn't even fired. See for yourself.

You get a whole panel just to tell you that the guy gets a chance to fire the gun. And what happens? Midnighter kills him in the next panel and Midnighter's uninjured on the next page. I'm sure you'll say something like "Well...who says he was even aiming at Midnighter?" or some similar foolishness because for some reason you can't accept it. I'm not really interested. It seems like you already have your view of the character firmly in place and I'm not going to be the one to change it.

@Buckshot said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel:

If we don't know what happened with Midnighter and Winter and all we can see is that Midnighter beat him, what's the problem with me saying Midnighter beat him as if that's all it was? It wasn't a multi-page thing, it was what we were shown. Midnighter stated it matter of factly as well. You're assuming other people had some impact on it when that's not shown, and like I said, even if other people were involved, Midnighter would also have to deal with it and if something else happened, it just showed that he dealt with it better. I don't think I'm misleading anyone with my statements on Hellstrike. Midnighter distracted him. Yes, it's not something that happens in every fight, but Midnighter saw something he could use to distract Hellstrike for a second and get a free hit. It's not like that can't happen in other fights. Would you accept it if Midnighter threw an explosive dart and Hellstrike had to look away for a second? That distraction could easily be put in place of telling him to look at someone having sex in the middle of the fight. Midnighter basically told Hellstrike to look away. That's as much him playing on Hellstrike's mind and Hellstrike failing to keep focused as it is a "plot device". I think Midnighter could easily duplicate his victory over Hellstrike without a lesbian on the battlefield. What it seems to me is that when characters don't have enough showings and Midnighter beats them, it's meaningless because they opponents are fodder. But if Midnighter beats characters with plenty of history, it must be diminished for some other reason to maintain the view that Midnighter isn't really all that good because that's how some people like to see him.

If it's your opinion that Midnighter is the same character as Slade, good for you. If you don't agree with some people's thoughts on who Midnighter can beat, talk to the people you disagree with.

You didn't even know about Jack's physical attributes until I posted but you're still ready to make claims about his abilities as if what I've posted didn't happen. A tanker trailer like the one Jack threw is like 40 tons. That's not getting into the physics of throwing it as far as he did, just lifting it since I don't want to read too much into the feat (and working out the feat more than doubles the strength estimate). That puts him above your estimate of strength. Still don't see how he can have attributes above Spider-Man's? How about if I reiterate that he was shot in the torso, with a shotgun, at close range, twice, and was getting up seconds later? You seem set on saying Hawksmoor is Spider-Man lite, but even at his weakest, with all his other powers off, he's still more physically robust that Spider-Man. Give him his powers like he's got them 99% of the time and he can mess with gravity and make himself much stronger, and he can mess with his density and make himself stronger and more durable. Midnighter fought Jack when he was fully functional. He may not have been able to control the structure of the Carrier, but he was still in better shape than he was when he did the feats that I mentioned. There's no guide for the Wildstorm characters and even if there was, I doubt they'd give you numbers for Jack in a depowered state, but really, you should be able to see his abilities without a guide.

After Grifter shot Savant (when she got in the way of him shooting Tao), Zealot took her to get patched up and it was revealed that normally they're able to take bullets without an issue, but Grifter was using armor-piercing rounds, which is why Savant was injured. And the instances of her being shot that we've referenced are the greatest group of assassin on Earth who are trying to kill her and lead by someone of her own race, and a group of technologically enhanced monsters with guns. From all that, I think it makes more sense to say that she knows what she's talking about, the Coda aren't idiots and used ammunition that would hurt their target, and the enemies in volume 2 had bullets commensurate to the rest of their tech, so probably better than normal. You think it makes more sense that her words were untrue when nothing of the other option requires any sort of major leap in logic? I don't see why people like to make things harder than they are when there are explanations that fit with character statements in the world of the comic.

Of course you're going to interpret something so that it diminishes Midnighter's abilities, but c'mon, Grifter got manhandled twice before while aiming a gun at Midnighter. Midnighter dominated him more than once in that appearance, but you don't want to acknowledge that for whatever reason. You think a bullet would actually stop Midnighter even though they've bounced off his shoulder in the past, he's healed from a broken neck, and he could simply dodge them if he chose. It makes no sense to me, but you can believe it if you want. Sure, Grifter had the potential to shoot Midnighter, and that potential was never realized. Midnighter had the potential to wreck Grifter, and that was realized 3 times in the same fight. As for Midnighter dodging bullets, all I said was that he dodges bullets "time after time". You say he doesn't have as many examples of dodging bullets as I claim, but my claim would only require he have two. This is what instantly jumped to mind: He dodges the bullets of a chick with targeting enhancements. He dodges the bullets (along with many other projectiles also being fired at him at the time) of an enemy when he takes on a group of wanna-be x-men. He blocks bullets with his staff when fighting the army. He avoids a living laser (several times) that changes its direction to follow him and is never more than an arm's length away. And of course, his first appearance. You said he was never directly engaged and that the gun that could never miss wasn't even fired. See for yourself.

You get a whole panel just to tell you that the guy gets a chance to fire the gun. And what happens? Midnighter kills him in the next panel and Midnighter's uninjured on the next page. I'm sure you'll say something like "Well...who says he was even aiming at Midnighter?" or some similar foolishness because for some reason you can't accept it. I'm not really interested. It seems like you already have your view of the character firmly in place and I'm not going to be the one to change it.

Would you have problem with, for example, someone saying that Wolverine has beaten Northstar, Human Torch and Electro? Because while that is all technically true there are important plot points and context behind each of those examples that are important. Midnighter may have beaten Winter and Hellstrike, but the how and the why of it is important, simply stating that he did it while leaving out important information is misleading. If you don't like the context of the example being leveraged against it, use a different example. I have to imagine every character's feats go through a similar vetting process on this forum when someone cites them, I'm not really sure why Midnighter should be exempt from it aside from the fact that you are a mod and you really seem to like him. Midnighter beat Hellstrike because he was distracted by his girl friend getting the sex done to her. What about example to you feel elevates him above someone like Deathstroke?

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said on this particular subject, but the fact is Zealot has never been shown on panel to be bullet proof to any calibre of bullet, she has been shown to be vulnerable to bullets of unspecified calibres, and aside from Zealot herself, many Coda warriors have been shot up on panel with a great deal of success. When the Coda came after Grifter in his hotel room after he hooked up with Zealot in v2, he turned their faces into something akin to exploded watermelons with his standard hand gun rounds. Her saying it simply isn't enough for me in and of itself for me to believe she is bullet proof, especially in light of everything we've seen on panel related to this subject. You think it is, and that is fine, but we will have to agree to disagree. I also think the Grand Sarin also shot her with Orange's busted up magnum too.

I know what Jack's attributes are, what I asked you is to cite some issue numbers that show cased feats you felt were representative of him being above Spiderman sans city amping, because Jack tossing a semi truck in Secret Origins isn't enough. Spider-man has lifted tanks, rail road cars, subway cars,city buses and of course crazier stuff like supporting the weight of the Daily Bugle, tossing a semi isn't outside Spider-man's strength class. It maybe be outside his baseline average strength capabilities... but that is equally (if not more so) true in regards to Jack. By default Jack is a Spider-man level opponent in terms of his strength, speed and agility, and both times they fought Jack primarily engaged Midnighter in a primarily melee exchange whether by choice or by extension of not having another option. I don't think Spider-man has ever been shot point blank with a shot gun like Hawksmoor was in Secret Origins, but Pete has tanked crazy amounts of blunt force damage, and powerful explosions, he's also caught bullets at least twice. Tanking a direct shot gun blast is something Peter has never done, but then again Cap has taken machine gun fire to the chest without his armor (also something Spider-man has never done), and I personally wouldn't make the case that Steve is more durable than Spider-man.

The phrase "time after time" has certain connotations attached to it that would require more than two examples for it to be accurate, but whatever. Grifter has shot faster people than Midnighter, with better and more numerous bullet dodging feats under their belt, as such I believe he is capable of doing the same to Midnighter. Aim dodging random villains and avoiding getting shot by top street marksmen like Grifter are two different things. Everyone is aware Midnighter has healed from a broken neck and having his back up heart ripped out but he was down long enough to constitute a win, if Grifter tagged him in the face or heart, Midnighter would be putting up any sort of offence or defence for at the very least a few minutes. As for Midnighter being bullet proof I would but that on the alternate end of the PIS spectrum of the time he was in a wheel chair and sling because of broken bones for four issues (he was also shot there also, through the hand and in the shoulder IIRC).

I said the gun was never fired at them, not that it was never fired. There is a distinction. Apollo bursts through the wall, the gun man turns and fires at the falling debris where Apollo made his entrance, then Midnighter takes him out with projectiles. I don't see anything there that leads me to believe Midnighter was ever in the path of the gunman, let alone that he was dodging bullets from an "unavoidable gun."

Midnighter wins because he is literally a walking PIS. 

@texasdeathmatch said:

Midnighter wins because he is literally a walking PIS.

I don't think he's a walking PIS. The real man of PIS is Karate Kid.

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

Well he's been beaten before by his opponent not making the first move so his battle computer won't have to simulate probabilities...

And yeah, Midnighter is one of my favorite characters :D Just wish that DC will do him justice in the upcoming series.

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

As for DCnU Midnighter, it looks like he will be beating up Grifter soon based on the solicits. So there is that.

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

The people that beat him was the people who waited for Midnighter to attack first. Other instances might be when outside factors are instantly added upon the scenario. Deathstroke and Gorgon will surely attack first cause Midnighter won't. He will wait for them to attack to have the battle processed in his mind.

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

The people that beat him was the people who waited for Midnighter to attack first. 

@texasdeathmatch: Hahahaha... It was the Kung Fu guy of some sort. I'll try to look for the scan tho xD.

@texasdeathmatch said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

...but it has happened. That's why he's beaten/killed numerous people above his power set.

Like? The larger percentage of people he kills are featless nobodies with passing resemblances to established DC and Marvel characters. When he fights other established characters from the Wildstorm U they often fight him competitively.

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

The people that beat him was the people who waited for Midnighter to attack first.

How interesting, I did not know that.

It was a Shang-Chi esq robot in the one-shot Authority: Human on the Inside. I would take it with a grain of salt though, as Midnighter has is instigated conflict many times and still been able to predict the outcome of a fight.

Reguardless, Gorgon is a telepath. Midnighter may know a million things Gorgon might end up doing, but Gorgon knows the one thing that Midnighter will do. Telepathy trumps battle computer. Midnighter is a gloried Prime Sentinel.

Apparently I can't post more than 5 times a day so I just threw this edit in here. :(

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

The people that beat him was the people who waited for Midnighter to attack first.

How interesting, I did not know that.

i loophole in his combat computer, if he acts first he can't run the simulations

......this still here? Midnighter.

@texasdeathmatch said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

@texasdeathmatch said:

@emperorznb: Oh for sure, but to have the ability to basically beat anyone by creating millions of scenarios of the outcome, that's pretty PIS to me. Though I still think he's an awesome character :D

But in practice that has never really happened though. Plenty of people have fought him evenly and held their own, I'm not sure why Deathstroke and Gorgon would fare differently.

...but it has happened. That's why he's beaten/killed numerous people above his power set.

Like? The larger percentage of people he kills are featless nobodies with passing resemblances to established DC and Marvel characters. When he fights other established characters from the Wildstorm U they often fight him competitively.

@thedastardlyscoundrel: So what will Gorgon's telepathy do? See here, when the Gorgon moves, Midnighter already knows all of Gorgon's special abilities as well as the next moves he will do. So if Gorgon can see Midnighter moves, Midnighter can see a lot of probabilities on how to defeat Gorgon even if he can read Midnighter's next moves and will know each and every move until the end of the battle. Gorgon has already been defeated by Wolverine even with the use of Gorgon's telekinesis and Midnighter is a whole lot better than Wolverine.

@CitizenBane said:

......this still here? Midnighter.

ikr...

@thedastardlyscoundrel: Midnighter showed telepathy resistance in the latest Stormwatch issue.

@Dex_Starr said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: Midnighter showed telepathy resistance in the latest Stormwatch issue.

And he has shown telepathic resistance in Wildstorm as well.

@CitizenBane said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: Midnighter showed telepathy resistance in the latest Stormwatch issue.

And he has shown telepathic resistance in Wildstorm as well.

Midnighter still wins even without telepathic resistance IMO.

@Static Shock said:

@Renny: He was able to fight Apollo, though. Besides, Tomi only kills gods because his sword is made to do so. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was defeated by Wolverine after his stone gaze turned back on him.

I see no reason why Gorgon could solo, nor has he shown anything that would support that he could.

In all fairness he usually kicks the crap out of Wolverine and beat Elektra and Wolverine together, so Wolverine getting lucky and using his stone stare against him due to plot isn't a great example.

@Electric_Sheep said:

@Static Shock said:

@Renny: He was able to fight Apollo, though. Besides, Tomi only kills gods because his sword is made to do so. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was defeated by Wolverine after his stone gaze turned back on him.

I see no reason why Gorgon could solo, nor has he shown anything that would support that he could.

In all fairness he usually kicks the crap out of Wolverine and beat Elektra and Wolverine together, so Wolverine getting lucky and using his stone stare against him due to plot isn't a great example.

Gorgon's a great example of what top tier skill backed by TP and married with true superhuman speed in evidence looks like. He makes Wolverine look slow. He's a beast.

Midnighter does not solo this IMO.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Electric_Sheep said:

@Static Shock said:

@Renny: He was able to fight Apollo, though. Besides, Tomi only kills gods because his sword is made to do so. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was defeated by Wolverine after his stone gaze turned back on him.

I see no reason why Gorgon could solo, nor has he shown anything that would support that he could.

In all fairness he usually kicks the crap out of Wolverine and beat Elektra and Wolverine together, so Wolverine getting lucky and using his stone stare against him due to plot isn't a great example.

Gorgon's a great example of what top tier skill backed by TP and married with true superhuman speed in evidence looks like. He makes Wolverine look slow. He's a beast.

Midnighter does not solo this IMO.

I'd like to see Gorgon's speed being compared to Midnighter's. Midnighter is a lot faster than Gorgon. So what if Gorgon has TP? Midnighter can see how the battle could end a million ways possible and the end is him winning it. Midnighter would make Wolverine look like a slug.

All this talk of Gorgon's TP doesn't mean much if Midnighter can just block him. And Tomi isn't Jackson King, he has no invasive telepathy.

@CitizenBane said:

All this talk of Gorgon's TP doesn't mean much if Midnighter can just block him. And Tomi isn't Jackson King, he has no invasive telepathy.

Right. That's the common misconception of people here.

@emperorznb said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Electric_Sheep said:

@Static Shock said:

@Renny: He was able to fight Apollo, though. Besides, Tomi only kills gods because his sword is made to do so. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was defeated by Wolverine after his stone gaze turned back on him.

I see no reason why Gorgon could solo, nor has he shown anything that would support that he could.

In all fairness he usually kicks the crap out of Wolverine and beat Elektra and Wolverine together, so Wolverine getting lucky and using his stone stare against him due to plot isn't a great example.

Gorgon's a great example of what top tier skill backed by TP and married with true superhuman speed in evidence looks like. He makes Wolverine look slow. He's a beast.

Midnighter does not solo this IMO.

I'd like to see Gorgon's speed being compared to Midnighter's. Midnighter is a lot faster than Gorgon. So what if Gorgon has TP? Midnighter can see how the battle could end a million ways possible and the end is him winning it. Midnighter would make Wolverine look like a slug.

Right. A slug. Sounds like a little fan wanking to me.

Wolverine's been shown moving faster than the human eye could follow more than a few times. One of his more iconic battles with Creed had Psylocke unable to follow them with her mind, they were moving too fast. Wolverine's dodged bullets point blank. Like his son, Daken, he's disappeared in plain view of his opponent. He likes to tank because he can and this gives him a bad rep. But his speed is definitely superhuman so let's not get too carried away here k?

Gorgon impressing Wolverine with his combat speed, dwarfing him with it really, is significant. Midnighter has done little to suggest he's "a lot faster" than Gorgon.

@CitizenBane said:

All this talk of Gorgon's TP doesn't mean much if Midnighter can just block him. And Tomi isn't Jackson King, he has no invasive telepathy.

Gorgon's the 'original' Mister X. Which is to say, he used his TP as a form of precog in battle long before Mister X came on the scene. Whether it helps him with Midnighter or not is debatable. But I can point out at least a half dozen instances stating Wolverine is highly TP resistant, and yet it works on him. Emma Frost was unable to control Wolverine. Citing too much scarring from his mind being tampered with building a strong resistance ... so TP resistance is very debatable and often plot induced.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@emperorznb said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Electric_Sheep said:

@Static Shock said:

@Renny: He was able to fight Apollo, though. Besides, Tomi only kills gods because his sword is made to do so. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was defeated by Wolverine after his stone gaze turned back on him.

I see no reason why Gorgon could solo, nor has he shown anything that would support that he could.

In all fairness he usually kicks the crap out of Wolverine and beat Elektra and Wolverine together, so Wolverine getting lucky and using his stone stare against him due to plot isn't a great example.

Gorgon's a great example of what top tier skill backed by TP and married with true superhuman speed in evidence looks like. He makes Wolverine look slow. He's a beast.

Midnighter does not solo this IMO.

I'd like to see Gorgon's speed being compared to Midnighter's. Midnighter is a lot faster than Gorgon. So what if Gorgon has TP? Midnighter can see how the battle could end a million ways possible and the end is him winning it. Midnighter would make Wolverine look like a slug.

Right. A slug. Sounds like a little fan wanking to me.

Wolverine's been shown moving faster than the human eye could follow more than a few times. One of his more iconic battles with Creed had Psylocke unable to follow them with her mind, they were moving too fast. Wolverine's dodged bullets point blank. Like his son, Daken, he's disappeared in plain view of his opponent. He likes to tank because he can and this gives him a bad rep. But his speed is definitely superhuman so let's not get too carried away here k?

Gorgon impressing Wolverine with his combat speed, dwarfing him with it really, is significant. Midnighter has done little to suggest he's "a lot faster" than Gorgon.

Wolverine's speed isn't really relevant here, both Gorgon and Midnighter are much faster than him. But I agree that comparing Wolverine's speed to a slug is downplaying the character. Gorgon's best speed feat would be the time he sliced off Slingshot's arms while she was mid-blitz. However Midnighter broke the neck of Impetus when he was mid-blitz, and by all indications Impetus is much faster than Slingshot. He was tooling most of the Authority and Stormwatch at the time. So Midnighter's speed feat is considerably better than Tomi's speed feat.

@CitizenBane said:
All this talk of Gorgon's TP doesn't mean much if Midnighter can just block him. And Tomi isn't Jackson King, he has no invasive telepathy.
Gorgon's the 'original' Mister X. Which is to say, he used his TP as a form of precog in battle long before Mister X came on the scene. Whether it helps him with Midnighter or not is debatable. But I can point out at least a half dozen instances stating Wolverine is highly TP resistant, and yet it works on him. Emma Frost was unable to control Wolverine. Citing too much scarring from his mind being tampered with building a strong resistance ... so TP resistance is very debatable and often plot induced.

Not really the same thing, though. Midnighter was the only member of the Authority who resisted the TP of John Clay, who brought 70% of the world's population under his control. That's a very impressive resistance feat right there. His only problem with a telepath as far as I recall would be when Battalion cut off his access to his battle computer, but Gorgon isn't capable of something like that.

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's combat speed is relevant. Tomi dwarfing said speed in combat is relevant IMO. Logan's tagged speedsters as well. Quicksilver and Speed Demon come to mind. He's casually tagged Storm's cape with precision while she was flying at him at faster than hurricane wind speeds. Wolverine's combat speed (not avoidance or acrobatics mind you) have more than kept stride with Spider-Man. Even had Peter questioning whether or not Logan was the faster of the two (which he isn't, but still impressive). So squelching Logan's combat speed as Tomi has, repeatedly, is highly relevant.

And Wolverine resisting Emma Frost's TP (more than once), breaking Mesmero's control, causing Xavier pause (when having to delve into Logan's psyche) all show that TP resistance did little to prevent Mister X and Gorgon from predicting his moves and attack patterns. It's a different brand of TP. Non intrusive in that they are not seeking to control or manipulate.

@Super_SoldierXII: He has displayed speed and strength to go toe-to-toe with Lobo for a while, dodged lasers and creating a blur to the one blasting him, kicking an incoming artillery projectile back to where it came from, speed blitzing Khaizen Gamorra's superman ripoffs, tagged up with Impetus who was messing with Stormwatch really well and killed a clone of himself, spat his teeth with a force and velocity of a bullet, and soloed the Authority while mind-controlled. I wouldn't even think Wolverine nor Gorgon could touch Midnighter coupled up with his battle computer.

@emperorznb said:

@Super_SoldierXII: He has displayed speed and strength to go toe-to-toe with Lobo for a while, dodged lasers and creating a blur to the one blasting him, kicking an incoming artillery projectile back to where it came from, speed blitzing Khaizen Gamorra's superman ripoffs, tagged up with Impetus who was messing with Stormwatch really well and killed a clone of himself, spat his teeth with a force and velocity of a bullet, and soloed the Authority while mind-controlled. I wouldn't even think Wolverine nor Gorgon could touch Midnighter coupled up with his battle computer.

1) Lobo? Sheesh (read: yuck). DC putting Midnighter in the same book as Lobo is not doing the character a service. Haven't read that so I cannot comment further. Though I could just as easily say Wolverine's gone 'toe to toe' with Thor for a few panels as well. Even making him bleed. See what I'm saying ... ?

2) Doged lazers; who hasn't?

3) Moved so fast as to appear a blur huh? Again, who hasn't? Even *gasp* Wolverine who is akin to a slug whence drawn against the mighty Midnighter has moved so fast as to appear a blur.

4) Kicked artillery. Captain America has cought a missile with his bare hands. And?

5) Spitting teeth out like bullets? Don't see that particular strategy garnering a 'w' here. All that tells me is someone knocked his teeth out.

6) Solo'd Authority, you mean like how Deathstroke solo'd the JLA or the Teen Titans?

Saying Gorgon couldn't even 'touch' Midnighter means this debate is pretty much finished as your book is closed to discussion regardless. I mean no offense, I just tend not to warm up to anyone's opinion that this is a stomp in favor of Midnighter which is what you are suggesting here. Ridiculous.

I think that if Deathstroke could play mental chess via fighting techniques with Midnighter, he may allow Gorgon the opening he needs to use "Grass Cutter" to Kill Midnighter...but it's a close one requiring actual teamwork on the part of Deathstroke and Gorgon.

The not@emperorznb said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Electric_Sheep said:

@Static Shock said:

@Renny: He was able to fight Apollo, though. Besides, Tomi only kills gods because his sword is made to do so. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was defeated by Wolverine after his stone gaze turned back on him.

I see no reason why Gorgon could solo, nor has he shown anything that would support that he could.

In all fairness he usually kicks the crap out of Wolverine and beat Elektra and Wolverine together, so Wolverine getting lucky and using his stone stare against him due to plot isn't a great example.

Gorgon's a great example of what top tier skill backed by TP and married with true superhuman speed in evidence looks like. He makes Wolverine look slow. He's a beast.

Midnighter does not solo this IMO.

I'd like to see Gorgon's speed being compared to Midnighter's. Midnighter is a lot faster than Gorgon. So what if Gorgon has TP? Midnighter can see how the battle could end a million ways possible and the end is him winning it. Midnighter would make Wolverine look like a slug.

Here we go. Midnighter is NOT faster than Gorgon, he isn't even faster than Wolverine. He has virtually no speed feats what-so-ever under his belt. Wolverine would beat Midnighter 10/10, even if Wolverine wasn't stronger, faster and more skilled (which he is), his healing factor is far to powerful for Midnighter to even comprehend being able to beat him. If Midnighter ran him fighting Wolverine a billion times in his head, the only thing he would see is the billion ways Wolverine would kick his ass. You guys act like Midnighter is the only character with a battle computer, Wolverine has dealt with sentient machines with quantum battle computers before, and he has done fine; that couple with the fact that Midnighter doesn't have a single win over a Wolverine calibre opponent and you would need to be insane to thing that Midnighter has a chance at taking the majority from him in a fight. Jesus.

@CitizenBane said:

Wolverine's speed isn't really relevant here, both Gorgon and Midnighter are much faster than him. But I agree that comparing Wolverine's speed to a slug is downplaying the character. Gorgon's best speed feat would be the time he sliced off Slingshot's arms while she was mid-blitz. However Midnighter broke the neck of Impetus when he was mid-blitz, and by all indications Impetus is much faster than Slingshot. He was tooling most of the Authority and Stormwatch at the time. So Midnighter's speed feat is considerably better than Tomi's speed feat.

Not really the same thing, though. Midnighter was the only member of the Authority who resisted the TP of John Clay, who brought 70% of the world's population under his control. That's a very impressive resistance feat right there. His only problem with a telepath as far as I recall would be when Battalion cut off his access to his battle computer, but Gorgon isn't capable of something like that.

Again: Midnighter is not faster than Wolverine, but I'll leave that alone for now. Midnighter beat a inept zombie Impetus by extending his bo-staff at the right moment while Impetus was running past him. But lets ignore that and just pretend he hit him by virtue of being fast enough, this is the guy that he managed to tag:

Gallery

That's Swift having to trouble contending with Impetus speed and one shotting him. Slingshot is faster than Impetus.

@emperorznb said:

@Super_SoldierXII: He has displayed speed and strength to go toe-to-toe with Lobo for a while, dodged lasers and creating a blur to the one blasting him, kicking an incoming artillery projectile back to where it came from, speed blitzing Khaizen Gamorra's superman ripoffs, tagged up with Impetus who was messing with Stormwatch really well and killed a clone of himself, spat his teeth with a force and velocity of a bullet, and soloed the Authority while mind-controlled. I wouldn't even think Wolverine nor Gorgon could touch Midnighter coupled up with his battle computer.

The Lobo fight is non-canon. Laser dodging and blur movement is street level standard. The artillery shell kick is PIS. Khaizen Gamorra's soldiers aren't "Supermen" ripoffs, the are fodder with flight speed and energy blasts, not superhuman combat speed. Impetus ran into his extending bo-staff, and wasn't even fast enough to beat Swift in a one on one fight. Bullet tooth is PIS. He was preped for his fight with the Authority and there was jobbing / CIS on their part because Midnighter is a friend.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@emperorznb said:

@Super_SoldierXII: He has displayed speed and strength to go toe-to-toe with Lobo for a while, dodged lasers and creating a blur to the one blasting him, kicking an incoming artillery projectile back to where it came from, speed blitzing Khaizen Gamorra's superman ripoffs, tagged up with Impetus who was messing with Stormwatch really well and killed a clone of himself, spat his teeth with a force and velocity of a bullet, and soloed the Authority while mind-controlled. I wouldn't even think Wolverine nor Gorgon could touch Midnighter coupled up with his battle computer.

1) Lobo? Sheesh (read: yuck). DC putting Midnighter in the same book as Lobo is not doing the character a service. Haven't read that so I cannot comment further. Though I could just as easily say Wolverine's gone 'toe to toe' with Thor for a few panels as well. Even making him bleed. See what I'm saying ... ?

2) Doged lazers; who hasn't?

3) Moved so fast as to appear a blur huh? Again, who hasn't? Even *gasp* Wolverine who is akin to a slug whence drawn against the mighty Midnighter has moved so fast as to appear a blur.

4) Kicked artillery. Captain America has cought a missile with his bare hands. And?

5) Spitting teeth out like bullets? Don't see that particular strategy garnering a 'w' here. All that tells me is someone knocked his teeth out.

6) Solo'd Authority, you mean like how Deathstroke solo'd the JLA or the Teen Titans?

Saying Gorgon couldn't even 'touch' Midnighter means this debate is pretty much finished as your book is closed to discussion regardless. I mean no offense, I just tend not to warm up to anyone's opinion that this is a stomp in favor of Midnighter which is what you are suggesting here. Ridiculous.

Seriously, it's like these guys have never read a comic before. They just skimmed a bio and looked at the pictures in a respect thread and came here to fan wank Midnighte.,

The only two impressive feats there are PIS, and even some of them have been replicated. Captain America once dove into the ocean, and kicked a freaking torpedo out of the water and back ship that shot it!

@thedastardlyscoundrel: The Lobo fight is non-canon yes... but it did show that Midnighter can do it. The artillery shell kick is not PIS, Midnighter has the capabilities to do that. Khaizen's soldiers have enough speed so that Apollo can't catch up with them. Midnighter thought about what is happening during his fight with Impetus. He extended his Bo-Staff when Midnighter knew that Impetus was near. Yeah... like Deathstroke prepped with the JLA.

@thedastardlyscoundrel: You're thegentlemanrogue, aren't you? I believe Buckshot has already addressed you here, where your proclivity to downplay Midnighter and overstate Wolverine at the same time was noted. All your points are generally repeated from there. So........yeah, there's no reason for me to address that. Like he said, you have your view of the character firmly in place and no amount of evidence will displace that.

@emperorznb said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: The Lobo fight is non-canon yes... but it did show that Midnighter can do it. The artillery shell kick is not PIS, Midnighter has the capabilities to do that. Khaizen's soldiers have enough speed so that Apollo can't catch up with them. Midnighter thought about what is happening during his fight with Impetus. He extended his Bo-Staff when Midnighter knew that Impetus was near. Yeah... like Deathstroke prepped with the JLA.

Wolverine beat Lobo in a non canon book as well. Batman has fought him two or three times as well. Neither of them can realistcly but up a fight with Lobo for any extend period of time. Please cite a single other example of Midnighter demonstrating either the strength or the speed that would be required for him to kick an tank shell. Outside of that one isolated example his best strength feat is bludgeoning Assassin8 with a fridge, or tearing up a rail road track. Kicking a tank shell back at the tank that fired it is so lubriciously above all his other feats that it isn't even funny. There is a difference between flight speed and combat speed. Mrs Marvel can fly to Jupiter in a few panels. Iron Man can flew to the sun in seconds. Outside of flight they don't have any significant super speed, same goes for the Khaizen soldiers. Fair enough on the JLA thing.

@CitizenBane said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: You're thegentlemanrogue, aren't you? I believe Buckshot has already addressed you here, where your proclivity to downplay Midnighter and overstate Wolverine at the same time was noted. All your points are generally repeated from there. So........yeah, there's no reason for me to address that. Like he said, you have your view of the character firmly in place and no amount of evidence will displace that.

Afraid not, but I agree with most of what he says he does raise many of the same points, which I can't say is entirely surprising, anyone who has actually read a Midnighter comic should be view things that way.

@thedastardlyscoundrel: You made the claim that Midnighter only mows down fodder and doesn’t beat anyone of note. I brought examples of who he beat. I don’t have a problem with you bringing context (did I say that anywhere?) if it's relevant. What creates an issue is that you seem to be bringing context in an attempt to make it appear as though Midnighter could not have gotten those wins out of that context. You question if Midnighter could beat Winter in a one on one fight even though there is absolutely nothing on panel to indicate that anyone interfered with their fight (and definitely not in a way that would ONLY benefit Midnighter), and you seem to be crediting Hellstrike’s defeat to him being distracted even though it was clearly Midnighter who distracted him (Midnighter had agency no matter how much you’d like to remove that with your passive wording) and that could have been done just as well with a shuriken, an explosive, or simply a lie (since Hellstrike looked away to verify Midnighter’s statement, it could have easily been anything else or nothing at all and it would have worked). I’m not giving Midnighter any special treatment. If you want to act like his wins aren’t possible elsewhere, prove it.

Not all Coda warriors are Kherubim. I wouldn’t expect them all to be bullet-proof, though honestly, I recall them going down to blades far more often than bullets. That is of course except for when Grifter is shooting at them, as you’ve brought up, but since Grifter uses the rounds that pierce their flesh (again, he was the one that shot Savant in the situation that brought to light the whole bullet-proof thing), I would expect him to be able to. As for your idea of what happened when Zealot fought Grand Sarin, it’s incorrect. The Grand Sarin carried her own gun and used that on Zealot, and since she was released in order to kill Zealot, her packing the appropriate rounds would not be unbelievable, would it? Would it be a stretch at all?

Why is Jack displaying greater strength or durability than Spider-man not enough just because you say it isn’t? You want to see what Jack can do without any help from the city and in the only situation where that’s possible, he shows feats above Spider-Man, but you don’t want to accept that for some reason. Spider-Man lifting and supporting (not even throwing for several football fields) things that are outside of his listed stats is not on Jack’s level. Not the other way around. Jack, at his weakest, was outperforming Spider-Man. You choose not to accept it because it doesn’t fit your view of the character. And Spider-Man catching a bullet in his hand when he focused on it extremely hard (not to mention that another bullet flew through his other hand and into his shoulder) doesn’t give him the same durability as someone taking shotgun blasts unaware. Spider-Man’s feat was speed and timing more than durability. Spider-Man is Jack Hawksmoor Lite in terms of physical robustness.

Why are you arguing over whether Grifter could shoot Midnighter as if it matters? You wanted to show that Midnighter couldn’t beat Grifter, yet he laid him out multiple times in one fight while remaining unharmed even though Grifter had his gun drawn. Grifter thinking he could shoot him (and not proving it) the third time doesn’t change what happened the first two times he drew his gun. You’re trying to argue what could have happened if Midnighter hadn’t already proven his superiority. ”If Grifter tagged him in such a way blah blah blah.“ Why argue that? He simply didn’t. And why assume he even could if Midnighter has dodged bullets before? Why is it different if Grifter is holding the gun? Does it make the bullet travel faster? Midnighter has blocked bullets with his staff. To think Grifter could hit him, you’d have to not only ignore that Midnighter has dodged bullets in the past, but also that he’s blocked them. And since you brought up the time he was shot when he was in a wheelchair, I’ll remind you, his powers had been shut off (by a being that could F*** with the Carrier) at the time he was shot. What’s funny, is that even with his powers off, his legs barely working, and a broken arm, the agent still thinks he’s a significant enough threat that he decides to shoot him in his other arm just to be safe.

And your response to my image is about what I expected.

I feel like I’ve addressed the core points of your argument. First, that Midnighter’s wins are only against fodder and that makes them meaningless. Untrue because he doesn’t only beat fodder and even if he did, you can see his abilities in those fights. Second, that when Midnighter fights established characters, he can’t beat them. Untrue because of the three you listed, he clearly beat one, was beating another when they were interrupted, and it could be argued that he beat the third, even though they are nearly sacred cows and one is his physical superior. And third, when Midnighter beats established characters, it doesn’t count because of the context. Untrue because you haven’t proven that context was integral to Midnighter’s wins or couldn’t be duplicated in another scenario. I also think I’ve done a better job than you at defending my positions in secondary arguments that have come up (Zealot being able to take bullets, Hawksmoor being more physically robust than Spider-Man, and Midnighter being able to handle a bullet).

I am unsure why Midnighter’s ability to see what people will do is discredited (or should I say, the attempt was made to discredit it) while Gorgon’s ability to see what someone will do next was not, even though Gorgon is the one who got himself turned to stone because he didn’t see Wolverine getting ready to trick him into looking at himself.

I don't usually ask for support of any kind, but I'm willing to admit that I may be off-base, someone other than thedastardlyscoundrel/thegentlemanrogue/someoneelsefromkmcthatthinkswolverineisgodandmidnighterisalamepretender tell me if my reasoning is completely bonkers. Check my paragraph with the bold segments and tell me where I'm making grievous errors.

And there it is :)

team

this fight will have an awesome display of martial arts but nighter takes it

Buckshot makes great points and I would not downplay Midnighter as an awesome character with great feats. That said, I would not downplay Tomi or Slade either (as some have) who have equally great feats ... arguable as this comment may be. Fact is, Midnighter belongs in a debate against two of comicdoms toughest street level hombres. That in and of itself is testament to the character's potential and accomplishments. I just have yet to be convinced he can take the majority against the two. One on one, yes. Both together? No. I give it to team still 6.5/10 (or more).

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

Again: Midnighter is not faster than Wolverine, but I'll leave that alone for now. Midnighter beat a inept zombie Impetus by extending his bo-staff at the right moment while Impetus was running past him. But lets ignore that and just pretend he hit him by virtue of being fast enough, this is the guy that he managed to tag:

Gallery

That's Swift having to trouble contending with Impetus speed and one shotting him. Slingshot is faster than Impetus.

Neglecting to mention something? Swift beat a zombie Impetus too, and she did far worse against him than Midnighter did. The Impetus she faced wasn't even taking her seriously (he even tells her "this is just for sport" while he was beating the crap out of her). He threw her into a wall and then moved on to the Carrier's baby universe, and while he was circling it Swift basically flew into him. He didn't even know she was coming. In Prime, Swift couldn't even catch the zombie Impetus, she crashed into Fuji while chasing him. Battalion states that he'd be surprised if she had actually managed to catch him. That same zombie Impetus took down Fahrenheit and Blademaster, and dodged multiple energy strikes from Hellstrike, to the point where he says "this eejit's making mincemeat out o' us", to which Battalion replies "Midnighter! We need your help with Impetus. You're the only one who can do this".

Now for the actual encounter between Midnighter and Impetus, he runs towards him while dodging several blades that Midnighter throws at him. Just before he reaches him Midnighter extends his staff and swings it into Impetus' path. You can argue that he wouldn't have been able to do without his battle computer calculating where Impetus would show up, but that really makes no difference since disabling his enhancements isn't possible in this match. Slingshot is faster than Impetus? I'd like to see some proof of this.

Sigh deathstroke and midnighter are practical the same expect deathstroke actually fight noteworthy people , flash and kyle ryner are just a few I could name. Comicvine just has a boner for midnighter. Midnighter strength and reflexes are not greater the deathstroke. I tried to be a little understanding in the last few post because I know how butthurt Midnighter fans get but come gorgon or deathstroke with this setup win on their own or together.

@Buckshot said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel: You made the claim that Midnighter only mows down fodder and doesn’t beat anyone of note. I brought examples of who he beat. I don’t have a problem with you bringing context (did I say that anywhere?) if it's relevant. What creates an issue is that you seem to be bringing context in an attempt to make it appear as though Midnighter could not have gotten those wins out of that context. You question if Midnighter could beat Winter in a one on one fight even though there is absolutely nothing on panel to indicate that anyone interfered with their fight (and definitely not in a way that would ONLY benefit Midnighter), and you seem to be crediting Hellstrike’s defeat to him being distracted even though it was clearly Midnighter who distracted him (Midnighter had agency no matter how much you’d like to remove that with your passive wording) and that could have been done just as well with a shuriken, an explosive, or simply a lie (since Hellstrike looked away to verify Midnighter’s statement, it could have easily been anything else or nothing at all and it would have worked). I’m not giving Midnighter any special treatment. If you want to act like his wins aren’t possible elsewhere, prove it.

Not all Coda warriors are Kherubim. I wouldn’t expect them all to be bullet-proof, though honestly, I recall them going down to blades far more often than bullets. That is of course except for when Grifter is shooting at them, as you’ve brought up, but since Grifter uses the rounds that pierce their flesh (again, he was the one that shot Savant in the situation that brought to light the whole bullet-proof thing), I would expect him to be able to. As for your idea of what happened when Zealot fought Grand Sarin, it’s incorrect. The Grand Sarin carried her own gun and used that on Zealot, and since she was released in order to kill Zealot, her packing the appropriate rounds would not be unbelievable, would it? Would it be a stretch at all?

Why is Jack displaying greater strength or durability than Spider-man not enough just because you say it isn’t? You want to see what Jack can do without any help from the city and in the only situation where that’s possible, he shows feats above Spider-Man, but you don’t want to accept that for some reason. Spider-Man lifting and supporting (not even throwing for several football fields) things that are outside of his listed stats is not on Jack’s level. Not the other way around. Jack, at his weakest, was outperforming Spider-Man. You choose not to accept it because it doesn’t fit your view of the character. And Spider-Man catching a bullet in his hand when he focused on it extremely hard (not to mention that another bullet flew through his other hand and into his shoulder) doesn’t give him the same durability as someone taking shotgun blasts unaware. Spider-Man’s feat was speed and timing more than durability. Spider-Man is Jack Hawksmoor Lite in terms of physical robustness.

Why are you arguing over whether Grifter could shoot Midnighter as if it matters? You wanted to show that Midnighter couldn’t beat Grifter, yet he laid him out multiple times in one fight while remaining unharmed even though Grifter had his gun drawn. Grifter thinking he could shoot him (and not proving it) the third time doesn’t change what happened the first two times he drew his gun. You’re trying to argue what could have happened if Midnighter hadn’t already proven his superiority. ”If Grifter tagged him in such a way blah blah blah.“ Why argue that? He simply didn’t. And why assume he even could if Midnighter has dodged bullets before? Why is it different if Grifter is holding the gun? Does it make the bullet travel faster? Midnighter has blocked bullets with his staff. To think Grifter could hit him, you’d have to not only ignore that Midnighter has dodged bullets in the past, but also that he’s blocked them. And since you brought up the time he was shot when he was in a wheelchair, I’ll remind you, his powers had been shut off (by a being that could F*** with the Carrier) at the time he was shot. What’s funny, is that even with his powers off, his legs barely working, and a broken arm, the agent still thinks he’s a significant enough threat that he decides to shoot him in his other arm just to be safe.

And your response to my image is about what I expected.

I feel like I’ve addressed the core points of your argument. First, that Midnighter’s wins are only against fodder and that makes them meaningless. Untrue because he doesn’t only beat fodder and even if he did, you can see his abilities in those fights. Second, that when Midnighter fights established characters, he can’t beat them. Untrue because of the three you listed, he clearly beat one, was beating another when they were interrupted, and it could be argued that he beat the third, even though they are nearly sacred cows and one is his physical superior. And third, when Midnighter beats established characters, it doesn’t count because of the context. Untrue because you haven’t proven that context was integral to Midnighter’s wins or couldn’t be duplicated in another scenario. I also think I’ve done a better job than you at defending my positions in secondary arguments that have come up (Zealot being able to take bullets, Hawksmoor being more physically robust than Spider-Man, and Midnighter being able to handle a bullet).

I am unsure why Midnighter’s ability to see what people will do is discredited (or should I say, the attempt was made to discredit it) while Gorgon’s ability to see what someone will do next was not, even though Gorgon is the one who got himself turned to stone because he didn’t see Wolverine getting ready to trick him into looking at himself.

I don't usually ask for support of any kind, but I'm willing to admit that I may be off-base, someone other than thedastardlyscoundrel/thegentlemanrogue/someoneelsefromkmcthatthinkswolverineisgodandmidnighterisalamepretender tell me if my reasoning is completely bonkers. Check my paragraph with the bold segments and tell me where I'm making grievous errors.

This notion that Midnighter's battle computer > telepathy or body reading is simple insane. I already brought up the Sheeba / Zealot / Nemesis example, but aside from that Regis beat the crap out of Midnighter for two pages precisely because he could read his mind, and telepathy trumps a battle computer. This is what Gorgon would do to Midnighter:

Gallery

Even if we ignore the context that facilitated those wins for a moment, what is it about those two particular examples that you feel illustrates that he operates above the levels of Deathstroke or Gorgon? Seriously, ask yourself what did Midnighter actually do in those two examples? He choked a guy out, and he punctured a containment suit, then incapacitated his opponent while he was panicking. If Deathstroke was put in that story in place of Midnighter and it played out verbatim, would you say "That is bs!" I doubt it. The Hellstrike example isn't even remotely impressive, Nigel was completely no selling Midnighter's assault prior to being distracted and no I don't think it is likely that Midnighter could have accomplished the same thing in a one on one exchange without the benefit of that timely plot device distraction. What would he do? Toss his shuriken and little explosive darts and say "Oh no, look out behind you!!!" I don't see it, and I doubt any distraction he could come up with on the fly would catch Hellstrike by surprise nearly as much as seeing his girlfriend having sex with someone else. That's pretty shocking. The possibility exists that it could happen... but it's just not likely. Same goes for the Winter example. In a fight that only involves him and Midnighter, how does Midnighter got on his back and choke him out? Why would Winter even come into melee range?

Jack never "displayed greater strength and durability," than Spider-man. He tossed a semi. Spider-man has matched and topped that several times, I already cited a few examples of it. Maybe if Jack had tossed the semi "several football fields" and not 10 yards like actually happened you would be on to something... but that isn't what happened. Spider-man also caught a rifle bullet in Grim Hunt, but it was implied that he was amped at the time.

You expected my response!?! Are you Midnighter? *gasp* Or maybe you knew because you aren't an idiot, and as such recognize it is really the most obviously and logical interpretation of the feat and deep down you agree with me?

Yeah you're right, I went back and checked the issue and it was the Grand Sarin's gun. For some reason I remembered it being Orange's magnum with most of barrel mostly blown off. Anyway while I was doing that I also went back and checked v1 issues where Grifter shot Savant by mistake, and Zealot never says that she nor Savant are bullet proof or can't be harmed by anything short of armour piercing rounds. Lady Tron says she thought Zealot was invulnerable like Majestic, and she says "Kenesha and I are very very touch, but the Grifter was using armour piercing shells." Not exactly a concrete affirmation of her being bullet proof. For me personally, especially in light of all the times she has been shot, I need more than a line of questionable anecdotal evidence for me to say with any degree of confidence that she is bullet proof. I wouldn't be surprised if Zealot actually demonstrated some degree of bullet turning ability in the future, I just want to see it before I take it as gospel.

It's different because Grifter is one of the best marksmen in comicdom and doesn't telegraph his shot like the a featless nobody? Even a featless nobody with *oooooooooo* "targeting enhancements!" Just look at Grifter's feats, its not difficult to see he is of a MUCH higher pedigree of gunmen than the handful that Midnighter has managed to dodge. Making it much more difficult for him to be aim dodged, like the a run of the mill gunman? Grifter explicitly stated that Midnighter was not "faster than a bullet," and Captain Atom said he was the fastest man he had seen without powers, but that still puts him below superhuman speed. Typical street level aim dodging, isn't enough to avoid Grifter. Punisher has shot the web shooters off Spider-man's wrists and good old Peter has much better speed and bullet dodge feats than Midnighter. Midnighter was fast enough and close enough that he could attack Grifter before Cole had time to get a shot off, the implication of the end of the fight being that he was too far away for Midnighter to stop him from getting a shot off. It also helped that Grifter was jobbed out in that issue.

Hawksmoor stalemated Midighter once, and then lost a close battle back and forth battle with him on the carrier, a powerless Grifter lost to Midnighter, but stalemated him with the aid of his Gen Factor abilities in their second fight, Zealot stalemated or had the slight advantage in h2h over Midnighter in round one, and round 2 she clearly had the advantage in combat with her weapons and Midnighter only one via interference, and even then he still was worse for ware than Zealot was, limping, holding his side and bleeding all over the Carrier. We know what those characters are capable of, we've seen their feats... but the consensus seems to beat that even though Midnighter is depicted as have even back and fourth fights with those characters, that he would stomp Deathstroke like the no name fodder Midnighter typically fights? Why? Because he has a battle computer? Please. Midnighter's battle computer simple is not that effective. Yes it's really impressive how Midnighter kills lots of fodder, but when he fights a real superhero with feats of their own he doesn't preform nearly as well.

What strength, speed, healing, skill or battle computer feats does Midnighter have that suggest he could take a comfortable majority from Slade? None. The tank shell kick and tooth bullet are PIS, and even if we pretend they aren't (and pretend Slade's PIS aren't either), what do either of those have that even holds a candle to tagging he Flash? Does anyone here truly believe that Midnighter would win a scan war against Deathstroke? That if you compared the most impressive accomplishments of both characters, that Midnighter will end up with the more impressive list? Get real.

@CitizenBane said:

@thedastardlyscoundrel said:

Again: Midnighter is not faster than Wolverine, but I'll leave that alone for now. Midnighter beat a inept zombie Impetus by extending his bo-staff at the right moment while Impetus was running past him. But lets ignore that and just pretend he hit him by virtue of being fast enough, this is the guy that he managed to tag:

Gallery

That's Swift having to trouble contending with Impetus speed and one shotting him. Slingshot is faster than Impetus.

Neglecting to mention something? Swift beat a zombie Impetus too, and she did far worse against him than Midnighter did. The Impetus she faced wasn't even taking her seriously (he even tells her "this is just for sport" while he was beating the crap out of her). He threw her into a wall and then moved on to the Carrier's baby universe, and while he was circling it Swift basically flew into him. He didn't even know she was coming. In Prime, Swift couldn't even catch the zombie Impetus, she crashed into Fuji while chasing him. Battalion states that he'd be surprised if she had actually managed to catch him. That same zombie Impetus took down Fahrenheit and Blademaster, and dodged multiple energy strikes from Hellstrike, to the point where he says "this eejit's making mincemeat out o' us", to which Battalion replies "Midnighter! We need your help with Impetus. You're the only one who can do this".

Now for the actual encounter between Midnighter and Impetus, he runs towards him while dodging several blades that Midnighter throws at him. Just before he reaches him Midnighter extends his staff and swings it into Impetus' path. You can argue that he wouldn't have been able to do without his battle computer calculating where Impetus would show up, but that really makes no difference since disabling his enhancements isn't possible in this match. Slingshot is faster than Impetus? I'd like to see some proof of this.

I wasn't trying to argue that Swift's encounter against Impetus was better or more impressive, just point out that she was cable of hitting him and in the previous fight she was keeping lock step with him before she crashed into Fuji, in order to illustrate that Impetus was not faster than Slingshot. How fast do you think Swift can fly at max? 200 - 300 mph? Not all that fast compared to most modern speedsters. She was able to keep up and tag him when it came to it, even if her reflexes weren't up to par with her speed. Slingshot ran from San Juan to Caja De Muertos in two panels. She has nice speed blitzes under her belt, against the Dark Avengers.

Nah, Midnighter could probably have tagged Impetus even sans combat computer, anticipating where a speedster's movement / plan of attack is what skilled street levels do. It's how Slade and Batman have hit members of the Flash family and how Wolverine tagged Speed Demon ect ect ect.

@thedastardlyscoundrel: You brought up the Sheba example but simply bringing it up doesn’t prove your point. You’re trying to say her ability was better than midnighter’s because Zealot and Nemesis couldn’t tag her when they tagged Midnighter. If it was so much better though, why did they compare her ability directly to his? You assuming it was better completely ignores anything else going on in that interaction but that ability (which is ironic given your attempt to attribute Midnighter’s wins against Winter and Hellstrike to anything but his ability and looking to the context in those fights, a double standard that reveals your bias if your feelings weren’t already clear). Nemesis and Zealot tag Midnighter because he doesn’t dance around and try to avoid their attacks nearly as much as Sheba did, and Nemesis had added help from a neurological agent and Hawksmoor getting in Midnighter’s way (not something I made up but something Midnighter references, though you haven’t responded to me presenting those details you left out either time I’ve done it, more of your double standard since it was you insisting that we acknowledge context even when there was less of it that was relevant in the examples you wanted to use). And all that not even getting into how their fight with Sheba was two panels long instead of the multiple pages that Midnighter fought them for. As for Regis, he wasn’t just telepathic, he also physically dominated Midnighter when it came to stats. It’s not just that he knew what Midnighter could do, but he also had the physical body to do something about it. And when we look at Gorgon’s display of move reading in battle we see that it clearly wasn’t good enough to not see Wolverine preparing to trick him into turning himself into stone. Neither his telepathy nor his physical abilities are on the level they need to be to duplicate Regis’ display.

What I displayed with examples of him beating Winter and Hellstrike (and Grifter, and Hawksmoor, and arguably Zealot) is that he doesn’t just beat fodder, which is the point you were attempting to make. You’re confused if you think that other than a few sentences I’ve been talking to you about Midnighter being equal to Gorgon or Deathstroke. Why would Midnighter not be able to distract Hellstrike in another fight? He got Hellstrike to look away from him, there didn’t need to be anything where Hellstrike actually looked for that to work. Hellstrike needed to be looking away before he could register anything surprising, so even if Midnighter had been lying it would have worked. Midnighter has shown he can move faster than can be seen, so in the time Hellstrike looked away, he could have acted regardless of if there was sex going on. And until you provide some shred of evidence that something interfered with Midnighter’s fight with Winter (something that could only be advantageous for Midnighter), your attempts to diminish that win are baseless.

If Jack hasn’t topped Spider-Man’s durability, show me him getting shot and being ok with it. Again, him catching bullets is more speed and timing than durability, but that’s all you’re able to reference. Also, I looked at the feats you listed of Spider-Man’s strength and the only one on the level of Jack’s feat is him throwing a space ship and I’m disregarding it because either the ship wasn’t as heavy as you think it was or it was, and the feat is just beyond Spider-Man’s abilities so it was bad writing. Spider-Man has an established strength limit so if he threw a ship it either wasn’t as heavy as your random estimate or it was heavier than his long-established limit and something he should not have been able to do (which is likely given how old that feat is). As for it not covering the distance I said, the comic gives a distance of 500 yards. That’s how far Jack was from the robot. I think if Jack Hawksmoor is able to hit Superman hard enough that he bleeds, he’s out of Spider-Man’s strength range.

Zealot says they’re very tough but armor piercing rounds were able to harm her sister. Seems to me that the “but” is indicating that the armor piercing rounds exceed their toughness, and that the whole statement would be irrelevant if the rounds Grifter used didn’t do anything more than normal ones would. Regardless, the original point was that Midnighter stalemating Zealot is still a display of his ability. You equate Zealot to Cap physically, but add on to Cap maybe 10,000 years of unwavering dedication combat and anyone who could stalemate that character armed or unarmed would need to have tremendous ability. You say Midnighter only won because of interference and it seems to me to be another attempt to disregard any of his wins against established characters. If Maul interfered with the fight, Midnighter would have to deal with that interference just as much as Zealot did. They were both affected by Maul barging in, but Midnighter uses it to win while Zealot ends up with a sword in her throat. It displays his greater level of focus and adaptability, but it doesn’t make it any less of a win. Honestly though, I think it was part of his plan. He introduced weapons and because of that Zealot brought into the fight the weapons that Midnighter would use to force her down. It could be that everything happened in just a way to make it so Midnighter would have control of Zealot’s sword, or it could be that, fully in line with his powers, he knew what would happen if he acted a certain way and chose the outcome he wanted. And whether or not he was injured after the fight doesn’t matter, Zealot gave up because she acknowledged that she could not beat him in that battle (despite, regardless of what you think of my theory on his plans, an interference that affected them both equally).

Grifter shooting Midnighter is different in your head because you want it to be. Midnighter has blocked bullets out of the air. Even if you want to call everything else he’s done “aim dodging”, he’s knocked bullets out of the air, and that’s a bit beyond simply avoiding the general direction of a gun. Grifter not telegraphing his actions would matter if Midnighter’s computer couldn’t simply tell him what Grifter was going to do. That seems to be your problem, assuming that the combat computer doesn’t let him actually know what someone’s going to do next even though that’s been made clear. He says he knows the moves people are “preparing to make”, not the ones they might make, what they’re actually going to do. There was a whole issue dedicated to trying to show what a day in the life of Midnighter was like. He didn’t just see a lot of possible things, he knew, back to front, exactly how a fight (actually a series of fights) would go if he chose certain actions. He “knows every move you’ll make, and how to counter it”, not just random possibilities but the moves that will be made. You seem to want to ignore that his character is based on this ability because him only seeing possibilities makes him easier to beat. He does see millions of ways a fight could go, but he also knows how it will go because he can pick and choose what to do knowing what the consequences will be. As for Grifter, he was confident he could hit Midnighter but he never showed it. Grifter making statements about Midnighter means nothing. So does Captain Atom making statements about him.

So to summarize the fights you’re using to attempt to say that Midnighter doesn’t do all that well against established characters:

Jack Hawksmoor

Fight 1: In a city, so able to increase his strength, durability, and speed (beyond levels that, at their weakest are greater than Spider-Man’s), and has precognition and can see from every window, stalemated Midnighter.

Fight 2: On the Carrier, so likely at base stats (physically more robust than Spider-Man). Midnighter seemed to be winning when the fight ended. (And by seemed to be winning, I mean he hit Jack multiple times, avoided many of Jack’s hits, getting tagged only once on panel, and grinning through the fight.)

Zealot: Multi-hour back and forth resulting in a stalemate. Case can be made that Midnighter capitalized on a distraction that affected both of them or that he instigated the addition of weapons that would allow him to take victory.

Grifter

Fight 1: Grifter pulls a gun on Midnighter three times but never gets a shot off (even when Midnighter is facing away from him) and gets bones broken and shuriken lodged in his neck and spine. Win for Midnighter.

Fight 2: Midnighter catches Grifter (whose gen active powers allow him to detect nearby life) unaware and knocks both guns out of Grifter’s hands and pins him down. While they’re talking, Grifter breaks free and hits Midnighter a few times. They stop fighting to deal with another issue.

So Midnighter stalemates or beats all of them. Hawksmoor held his own but he’s a 40 tonner that moves like Spider-Man on his worst day. Zealot held her own for hours , and she’s Cap with a sex change, a bad attitude and about 10000 years of practice. Grifter got embarrassed in one fight and though their second fight ended early, he didn’t impress, unless you think a few punches on someone about as durable as concrete and able to get up after spaceships crash on him and heal from getting impaled through the chest in the middle of battle is a stalemate after Grifter had already been disarmed. (A couple other things to consider with the Grifter fight where he didn’t die: First issue of their team-up book and Midnighter was playing nice as evidenced by him asking about them being on the same side and giving him time to act while he still had one gun.) Midnighter has good showings against these established characters, not to mention others. I know you’ll never accept that he has good showings against characters that aren’t fodder, and I’ll just have to learn to live with that.

It boggles my mind how quick you are to dismiss Midnighter’s wins against Winter, Hellstrike, and Zealot because of interference, but you see absolutely no issue with crediting Nemesis with a win over Midnighter when he was literally doused in a neurologic agent and actually complains about how Hawksmoor interferes in the fight. And I just realized how interrupted Grifter’s fight was. After Midnighter broke his arm and laid him out the first time, Void teleports his baton away so Midnighter goes to beat her up, and after Midnighter disarms Grifter and prepares to crush his skull, Captain Atom throws Apollo, fresh from the sun, at him from through a Door.