Gorgon and Deathstroke vs Midnighter

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Erik

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#51  Edited By Erik

@Decoy Elite said:

@Erik said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@CitizenBane said:

Again, Midnighter.

Did you really need to bump this after 4 hours to repeat who you thought won?

Hell yeah it is needed. You know how many lemmings will repeat the answer that is stated last? Tons.

Did you know Lemmings don't really do that whole follow each other off cliffs things? That was actually a myth created by a "documentary" where they claimed that was the case. In reality they just tossed a bunch of lemmings off a cliff and played back the footage again and again to make it seem like there were more lemming than the relatively few there were.

Hmmm.... Strange because I see lemming on this site all the time running right off that cliff.

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MyronLee26

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#52  Edited By MyronLee26

@Static Shock said:

@LordStoop said:

Couldn't Gorgon just turn him to stone.

That's only if Midnighter looks at him. Thing is, the battle computer in Midnighter's brain forewarns him of his opponent's abilities before the fight starts, and also allows him to know every move they make before they make them. This is because the battle computer forsees millions of different outcomes of the fight.

So Midnighter's battle computer allows him to detect every single power his opponent has in detail?

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Erik

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#53  Edited By Erik

@MyronLee26 said:

@Static Shock said:

@LordStoop said:

Couldn't Gorgon just turn him to stone.

That's only if Midnighter looks at him. Thing is, the battle computer in Midnighter's brain forewarns him of his opponent's abilities before the fight starts, and also allows him to know every move they make before they make them. This is because the battle computer forsees millions of different outcomes of the fight.

So Midnighter's battle computer allows him to detect every single power his opponent has in detail?

Yes.

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MyronLee26

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#54  Edited By MyronLee26

@Erik said:

@MyronLee26 said:

@Static Shock said:

@LordStoop said:

Couldn't Gorgon just turn him to stone.

That's only if Midnighter looks at him. Thing is, the battle computer in Midnighter's brain forewarns him of his opponent's abilities before the fight starts, and also allows him to know every move they make before they make them. This is because the battle computer forsees millions of different outcomes of the fight.

So Midnighter's battle computer allows him to detect every single power his opponent has in detail?

Yes.

So, if someone has superhuman strength, does it tell him exactly how strong his opponent is?

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Saren

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#55  Edited By Saren

@MyronLee26 said:

@Erik said:

@MyronLee26 said:

@Static Shock said:

@LordStoop said:

Couldn't Gorgon just turn him to stone.

That's only if Midnighter looks at him. Thing is, the battle computer in Midnighter's brain forewarns him of his opponent's abilities before the fight starts, and also allows him to know every move they make before they make them. This is because the battle computer forsees millions of different outcomes of the fight.

So Midnighter's battle computer allows him to detect every single power his opponent has in detail?

Yes.

So, if someone has superhuman strength, does it tell him exactly how strong his opponent is?

Probably. He could tell how fast one of Gamorra's super-soldiers was and state that he was faster still.

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Erik

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#56  Edited By Erik

@MyronLee26 said:

So, if someone has superhuman strength, does it tell him exactly how strong his opponent is?

Yes. All the character's capabilities are known to him in detail.

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WaveMotionCannon

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#57  Edited By WaveMotionCannon

Midnighter by a hair. Gorgon's "stare" is the only thing preventing a stomp by Midnighter. I don"t know if his battle computer factors in powers it does like combat situations/outcomes but if it does Midnighter wins this going away. Midnighter is Bats with instantaneous prep and Deathstrokes strength and reflexes times 10.

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Saren

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#58  Edited By Saren

@WaveMotionCannon said:

Midnighter by a hair. Gorgon's "stare" is the only thing preventing a stomp by Midnighter. I don"t know if his battle computer factors in powers it does like combat situations/outcomes but if it does Midnighter wins this going away. Midnighter is Bats with instantaneous prep and Deathstrokes strength and reflexes times 10.

Gorgon rarely uses his stare other than as a finishing move at any rate.

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difficlus

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#59  Edited By difficlus

@CitizenBane said:

@WaveMotionCannon said:

Midnighter by a hair. Gorgon's "stare" is the only thing preventing a stomp by Midnighter. I don"t know if his battle computer factors in powers it does like combat situations/outcomes but if it does Midnighter wins this going away. Midnighter is Bats with instantaneous prep and Deathstrokes strength and reflexes times 10.

Gorgon rarely uses his stare other than as a finishing move at any rate.

also have to factor in Gorgon's telepathy as work here...

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Guardiandevil83

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#60  Edited By Guardiandevil83

@CitizenBane: You honestly believe the Midnighter could take two opponents who are just as enchanced as himself? He has been wounded in battle before and Slade should have the reflexes, skill, and firepower to put Midnighter's back againgst the wall, Gorgon only increases his chances. I remember in his solo midnighte fought that chick who was somewhat on the same level as apollo..but not nearly as skilled and was still tagged..Slade is very good at what he does not to mention a team buster. Gorgon took down two very skilled fighters in the marvel u at the same time, one said to be one of the greatest hand to hand fighters on marvel earth.

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Saren

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#61  Edited By Saren

@Guardiandevil83 said:

@CitizenBane: You honestly believe the Midnighter could take two opponents who are just as enchanced as himself? He has been wounded in battle before and Slade should have the reflexes, skill, and firepower to put Midnighter's back againgst the wall, Gorgon only increases his chances. I remember in his solo midnighte fought that chick who was somewhat on the same level as apollo..but not nearly as skilled and was still tagged..Slade is very good at what he does not to mention a team buster. Gorgon took down two very skilled fighters in the marvel u at the same time, one said to be one of the greatest hand to hand fighters on marvel earth.

Neither Wolverine nor Elektra are even in the top 5 Marvel H2H fighters. Midnighter's speed, strength and reflexes are well above Gorgon and Deathstroke. Midnighter broke the neck of Impetus, a speedster who was tooling most of the Authority and Stormwatch at the same time, while he was mid-blitz. Without doors, Midnighter takes it in a close match. With doors, he'd win very easily.

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Super_SoldierXII

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#62  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

Going with team. So there ...

Wonder if lemmings are tasty ...

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Super_SoldierXII

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#63  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

@CitizenBane said:

@Guardiandevil83 said:

@CitizenBane: You honestly believe the Midnighter could take two opponents who are just as enchanced as himself? He has been wounded in battle before and Slade should have the reflexes, skill, and firepower to put Midnighter's back againgst the wall, Gorgon only increases his chances. I remember in his solo midnighte fought that chick who was somewhat on the same level as apollo..but not nearly as skilled and was still tagged..Slade is very good at what he does not to mention a team buster. Gorgon took down two very skilled fighters in the marvel u at the same time, one said to be one of the greatest hand to hand fighters on marvel earth.

Neither Wolverine nor Elektra are even in the top 5 Marvel H2H fighters. Midnighter's speed, strength and reflexes are well above Gorgon and Deathstroke. Midnighter broke the neck of Impetus, a speedster who was tooling most of the Authority and Stormwatch at the same time, while he was mid-blitz. Without doors, Midnighter takes it in a close match. With doors, he'd win very easily.

Oh? Who are in the top 5 in your opinion?

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Saren

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#64  Edited By Saren

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Guardiandevil83 said:

@CitizenBane: You honestly believe the Midnighter could take two opponents who are just as enchanced as himself? He has been wounded in battle before and Slade should have the reflexes, skill, and firepower to put Midnighter's back againgst the wall, Gorgon only increases his chances. I remember in his solo midnighte fought that chick who was somewhat on the same level as apollo..but not nearly as skilled and was still tagged..Slade is very good at what he does not to mention a team buster. Gorgon took down two very skilled fighters in the marvel u at the same time, one said to be one of the greatest hand to hand fighters on marvel earth.

Neither Wolverine nor Elektra are even in the top 5 Marvel H2H fighters. Midnighter's speed, strength and reflexes are well above Gorgon and Deathstroke. Midnighter broke the neck of Impetus, a speedster who was tooling most of the Authority and Stormwatch at the same time, while he was mid-blitz. Without doors, Midnighter takes it in a close match. With doors, he'd win very easily.

Oh? Who are in the top 5 in your opinion?

There's Mr. X, Iron Fist, Echo, Mantis, the Gorgon and more. I'm not even going to get into people like Gamora.

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Guardiandevil83

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#65  Edited By Guardiandevil83

Wolverine should be in the top five he's beaten Cap, Shang Chi, and Iron Fist at one point or another..but on topic I just believe that Slade, who has taken down flash's, and given Batman one of the greatest tactians and fighters in his universe trouble with the help of someone who has nearly the same reflexes, and fighting ability..should come close to a win. I agree that Midnighter is a beast though..he did better against Lobo then Apollo did..I still can't figure out how strong he is though..and I have a lot of books during Ellis' run lol.

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#66  Edited By Saren

@Guardiandevil83 said:

Wolverine should be in the top five he's beaten Cap, Shang Chi, and Iron Fist at one point or another..but on topic I just believe that Slade, who has taken down flash's, and given Batman one of the greatest tactians and fighters in his universe trouble with the help of someone who has nearly the same reflexes, and fighting ability..should come close to a win. I agree that Midnighter is a beast though..he did better against Lobo then Apollo did..I still can't figure out how strong he is though..and I have a lot of books during Ellis' run lol.

Cap and Shang Chi aren't among the best either, and Logan wouldn't beat current Iron Fist. Midnighter's stalemated Zealot, who's arguably one of the top 3 if not the number one fighter in her universe. Slade has beaten Flashes with prep, it's not like he'd stand a chance if they decided to blitz him into oblivion. He beat Batman because of his enhanced stats, by his own admission his skill is inferior to Batman's.

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#67  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

@CitizenBane:

Only Iron Fist and Gamora (by reputation moreso than showings) belong on that list IMO. Gamora is 'ify' due to being quite powerful outside of her top tier skills. How much of her reputation is hyperbole is really still open to debate ...

Mister X is a doubtful candidate as well, due to a larger percentage of his abilities being based on his mutant ability to map his oponent's moves. Robbed of this advantage, Wolverine's beaten him. Twice. Iron Fist humiliated him as well ... Mister X fails to impress.

Gorgon is also enhanced to an undisclosed degree. So how much is skill, and how much is his 'mutation' (speed, strength, TP etc.) remains unknown.

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#68  Edited By Saren

@Super_SoldierXII: By that logic Wolverine doesn't belong on the list either, his mutation enhances his durability, speed, strength and stamina.

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#69  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

@CitizenBane said:

@Guardiandevil83 said:

Wolverine should be in the top five he's beaten Cap, Shang Chi, and Iron Fist at one point or another..but on topic I just believe that Slade, who has taken down flash's, and given Batman one of the greatest tactians and fighters in his universe trouble with the help of someone who has nearly the same reflexes, and fighting ability..should come close to a win. I agree that Midnighter is a beast though..he did better against Lobo then Apollo did..I still can't figure out how strong he is though..and I have a lot of books during Ellis' run lol.

Cap and Shang Chi aren't among the best either, and Logan wouldn't beat current Iron Fist. Midnighter's stalemated Zealot, who's arguably one of the top 3 if not the number one fighter in her universe. Slade has beaten Flashes with prep, it's not like he'd stand a chance if they decided to blitz him into oblivion. He beat Batman because of his enhanced stats, by his own admission his skill is inferior to Batman's.

I honestly think you're confusing hand to hand skill with 'who can beat who'.

Iron Fist takes Wolverine in a slight majority due to powerset moreso than skill.

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#70  Edited By Saren

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Guardiandevil83 said:

Wolverine should be in the top five he's beaten Cap, Shang Chi, and Iron Fist at one point or another..but on topic I just believe that Slade, who has taken down flash's, and given Batman one of the greatest tactians and fighters in his universe trouble with the help of someone who has nearly the same reflexes, and fighting ability..should come close to a win. I agree that Midnighter is a beast though..he did better against Lobo then Apollo did..I still can't figure out how strong he is though..and I have a lot of books during Ellis' run lol.

Cap and Shang Chi aren't among the best either, and Logan wouldn't beat current Iron Fist. Midnighter's stalemated Zealot, who's arguably one of the top 3 if not the number one fighter in her universe. Slade has beaten Flashes with prep, it's not like he'd stand a chance if they decided to blitz him into oblivion. He beat Batman because of his enhanced stats, by his own admission his skill is inferior to Batman's.

I honestly think you're confusing hand to hand skill with 'who can beat who'.

Iron Fist takes Wolverine in a slight majority due to powerset moreso than skill.

And how much does Wolverine's powerset contribute to lowering that majority?

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Guardiandevil83

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#71  Edited By Guardiandevil83

I would think the ranking is Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Taskmaster. These are earth bound..Gamora is on an entirely diffrent level.

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#72  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII: By that logic Wolverine doesn't belong on the list either, his mutation enhances his durability, speed, strength and stamina.

No. By that logic we need to work off hand to hand skill showings moreso than a who beats who scenario. Shang Chi beating Wolverine (in a training session) is a HUGE skill showing due to Wolverine being the more 'powerful' adversary (for example). Wolverine beating Shang Chi, conversly, not so much so due to said power difference. Wolverine beating Captain America in Origins is a decent skill showing, but were Steve to have beaten Logan that would have been a more impressive one due to Wolverine being the more powerful of the two on paper ... etc. etc.

It's proportional IMO.

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Super_SoldierXII

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#73  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Guardiandevil83 said:

Wolverine should be in the top five he's beaten Cap, Shang Chi, and Iron Fist at one point or another..but on topic I just believe that Slade, who has taken down flash's, and given Batman one of the greatest tactians and fighters in his universe trouble with the help of someone who has nearly the same reflexes, and fighting ability..should come close to a win. I agree that Midnighter is a beast though..he did better against Lobo then Apollo did..I still can't figure out how strong he is though..and I have a lot of books during Ellis' run lol.

Cap and Shang Chi aren't among the best either, and Logan wouldn't beat current Iron Fist. Midnighter's stalemated Zealot, who's arguably one of the top 3 if not the number one fighter in her universe. Slade has beaten Flashes with prep, it's not like he'd stand a chance if they decided to blitz him into oblivion. He beat Batman because of his enhanced stats, by his own admission his skill is inferior to Batman's.

I honestly think you're confusing hand to hand skill with 'who can beat who'.

Iron Fist takes Wolverine in a slight majority due to powerset moreso than skill.

And how much does Wolverine's powerset contribute to lowering that majority?

Well, in New Avengers, Marvel had Wolverine one upping Iron Fist in a sparring match on skill alone. However, Logan's enhancements certainly played to his advantage as did Danny's chi. Rand didn't use 'the Fist' and Logan didn't pop the claws, but Danny's natural use of chi to enhance his performance is as much a part of his basic powerset as are Logan's enhancements due to his mutation.

Danny's ever expanding diversity in use of the Iron Fist gifts are what give him the majority win IMO. Were it simply a hand to hand fight, fist versus claw, I'd give it to Wolverine because I'm sure Logan would soak more fists (no more than soaking class 100 blows) than Danny would 'claw' as it were.

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ThexX

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#74  Edited By ThexX

Midnighter wins here but it is close. His battle computer would tell him about Gorgons stone stare and Deathstroke powers too. And for Gorgon begin a telepath could some tell me was he reading Elektra mind are was he maybe just reading her body movements.

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#75  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

@ThexX said:

Midnighter wins here but it is close. His battle computer would tell him about Gorgons stone stare and Deathstroke powers too. And for Gorgon begin a telepath could some tell me was he reading Elektra mind are was he maybe just reading her body movements.

Both. He's like a Mister X but beyond peak human proportions (speed that made Wolverine raise an eyebrow) and with the ability to turn people to stone with a glance.

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nick_hero22

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#76  Edited By nick_hero22

bump

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Erik

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#77  Edited By Erik

Mismatch.

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vance_astro

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#78  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Erik said:

Mismatch.

That's what I was thinking.
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nick_hero22

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#79  Edited By nick_hero22

@Vance Astro said:

@Erik said:

Mismatch.

That's what I was thinking.

Instead of yelling mismatch actually make a case for Midnighter.

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Erik

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#80  Edited By Erik

@nick_hero22:

I did not yell it. I stated it because it is a fact.

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#82  Edited By nick_hero22

@Erik said:

@nick_hero22:

I did not yell it. I stated it because it is a fact.

I was talking to Vance but it would be nice if you made a case for Midnighter.

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#83  Edited By Static Shock
@nick_hero22: The mismatch was noted when it was revealed that Gorgon has telepathy and that it's used to read moves. At the same time, telepathy is a notable weakness of Midnighter's that could potentially mess with the battle computer's effectiveness. At that point, how is anyone supposed to make a case for Midnighter? 
 
In any case, you wanted your thread unlocked, so maybe you should entertain us. 
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Dex_Starr

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#84  Edited By Dex_Starr

I really hate Midnighter's new costume.

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#85  Edited By Erik

@nick_hero22 said:

@Erik said:

@nick_hero22:

I did not yell it. I stated it because it is a fact.

I was talking to Vance but it would be nice if you made a case for Midnighter.

It is not a mismatch in Midnighter's favor. Vance did not yell anything either from what I saw. He simply agreed with my statement.

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nick_hero22

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#86  Edited By nick_hero22

@Static Shock said:

@nick_hero22: The mismatch was noted when it was revealed that Gorgon has telepathy and that it's used to read moves. At the same time, telepathy is a notable weakness of Midnighter's that could potentially mess with the battle computer's effectiveness. At that point, how is anyone supposed to make a case for Midnighter? In any case, you wanted your thread unlocked, so maybe you should entertain us.

I wanted my thread unlocked because some people were making good cases on both sides and I was really enjoying the match and based on the posts in this thread it's not a mismatch.

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Erik

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#87  Edited By Erik

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

I really hate Midnighter's new costume.

Same.

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nick_hero22

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#88  Edited By nick_hero22

@Erik said:

@nick_hero22 said:

@Erik said:

@nick_hero22:

I did not yell it. I stated it because it is a fact.

I was talking to Vance but it would be nice if you made a case for Midnighter.

It is not a mismatch in Midnighter's favor. Vance did not yell anything either from what I saw. He simply agreed with my statement.

Hey many users said that Midnighter would win

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#89  Edited By Static Shock
@nick_hero22 said:

I wanted my thread unlocked because some people were making good cases on both sides and I was really enjoying the match and based on the posts in this thread it's not a mismatch.

I don't think you read my post thoroughly. 
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#90  Edited By Erik

@nick_hero22 said:

Hey many users said that Midnighter would win

And?

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#91  Edited By Static Shock
@nick_hero22 said:

Hey many users said that Midnighter would win

But, they also don't know that telepathy is his weakness and that Gorgon can use it to do the same thing he does as far as reading moves. 
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#92  Edited By Dex_Starr

@Static Shock said:

@nick_hero22 said:

Hey many users said that Midnighter would win

But, they also don't know that telepathy is his weakness and that Gorgon can use it to do the same thing he does as far as reading moves.

Not saying who wins, but by reading another thread here it looked like all of Midnighter's fights against telepaths that he lost against were because of different circumstances.

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#93  Edited By Static Shock
@Hohenheim_of_light: Such as?
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#94  Edited By Fetts

Impressive *golf claps*. Most impressive. Tough call. Either Midnighter barely takes this or it's a stalemate.

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#95  Edited By Saren

@Static Shock said:

@nick_hero22 said:

Hey many users said that Midnighter would win

But, they also don't know that telepathy is his weakness and that Gorgon can use it to do the same thing he does as far as reading moves.

Battalion used TP to stop Midnighter's brain from receiving signals from his battle computer. To the best of my knowledge Gorgon has never used telepathy that invasive. He reads minds and can probe further to uncover memories, but he's never actually shut down someone's mind or anything like that. And Midnighter does have telepathic resistance, he was able to resist the TP of John Clay, who brought 70% of the world's population under his control. In the most recent issue of Stormwatch, he displayed TP resistance again when the alien antibody tried to use Martian Manhunter's telepathy against him.

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Static Shock

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#96  Edited By Static Shock
@Dex_Starr: There are other examples of him falling prey to telepathy, though. 
 
@CitizenBane said:

Battalion used TP to stop Midnighter's brain from receiving signals from his battle computer. To the best of my knowledge Gorgon has never used telepathy that invasive. He reads minds and can probe further to uncover memories, but he's never actually shut down someone's mind or anything like that. And Midnighter does have telepathic resistance, he was able to resist the TP of John Clay, who brought 70% of the world's population under his control. In the most recent issue of Stormwatch, he displayed TP resistance again when the alien antibody tried to use Martian Manhunter's telepathy against him.

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Saren

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#97  Edited By Saren

@Static Shock said:

@Dex_Starr: There are other examples of him falling prey to telepathy, though.

@CitizenBane said:

Battalion used TP to stop Midnighter's brain from receiving signals from his battle computer. To the best of my knowledge Gorgon has never used telepathy that invasive. He reads minds and can probe further to uncover memories, but he's never actually shut down someone's mind or anything like that. And Midnighter does have telepathic resistance, he was able to resist the TP of John Clay, who brought 70% of the world's population under his control. In the most recent issue of Stormwatch, he displayed TP resistance again when the alien antibody tried to use Martian Manhunter's telepathy against him.

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TheWitchingHour

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#98  Edited By TheWitchingHour

I think a lot of people are short selling Gorgon here. He is incredibly powerful and versatile and quick. I think he would do a decent job against Midnighter one on one. Gorgon would lose but it would be a very good fight. Slade is a top tier street leveler but these two are slightly out of his league. He makes a relatively small but important difference. Gorgon would lose in a one on one confrontation but he barely wins with Slades assistance.

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Erik

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#99  Edited By Erik

@CitizenBane: @Static Shock:

That is an alternate universe Midnighter.

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#100  Edited By Saren

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think a lot of people are short selling Gorgon here. He is incredibly powerful and versatile and quick. I think he would do a decent job against Midnighter one on one. Gorgon would lose but it would be a very good fight. Slade is a top tier street leveler but these two are slightly out of his league. He makes a relatively small but important difference. Gorgon would lose in a one on one confrontation but he barely wins with Slades assistance.

Slade and Tomi have equitable speed and reaction time, though Slade is stronger. Midnighter's stats are still higher.