#1 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

VS.

#2 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm, i dont know much about Cyrodiil and Skyrim. actually nothing. But, neither Gondor or Rohan have any type of inherent magic in their armies. So, if Cyrodiil and Skyrim do, then its lights out for the men of the 3rd age.

#3 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

WHO ARE THE CHALLENGERS FoR SKYRIM AN CYRODILL

or is this like a.everyone.vs everyone or.wat

#4 Posted by KingOfAsh (3627 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I favour Lord of the Rings, I have to say that Tambriel has a magical advantage.

#5 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

I love LOTRs, but the Empire has an entire section of their military devoted to Battlemages, something Gondor and Rohan would have no answer to. They can also arm their regular soldiers with enchanted weapons and armor, potions, magical buffs and as cost permits they can even give them high grade weapons and armor like ebony and Daedric, which is better than all but the most ancient and powerful gear in LOTRs.

In an extended siege the Empire also has the advantage of having healers. With Gondor/Rohan, that guy that took a sword in the gut and wandered back to camp is out of commission for like a month, provided he lives. With the Empire, he's back on his feet and ready for duty in 30 seconds.

#6 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

With magic: Team Tamriel

But what about without magic?

#7 Posted by niBBit (718 posts) - - Show Bio

@Inphase: I still would say Tamriel. If i'm not mistaken the Legion also has different species in their armies like Orcs/Bosmer and so on, so there armies are more versetile compared to the all Human LOTR armies. I don't know if this means anything but there is a new trailer from the new Elder Scrolls Online game and in it you see that a Nord beats undead werewolfs with his bare hands, so Nords>>Humans.

#8 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@niBBit: Well, Nords are human, but yeah, you're right about that.

#9 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Inphase said:

With magic: Team Tamriel

But what about without magic?

Even without magic they have a serious advantage. The Empire keeps plenty of ebony on hand for times of war, (why do you think it's illegal to sell ebony?) so that they can upgrade their soldiers from the basic imperial steel junk they normally have. Ebony weapons and armor would be too great of an advantage to overcome. The weapons can cleave through armor like it's nothing, and the protection is insane too. In fact, I'd say ebony > LOTRs mithril.

#10 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus: I don't know about Ebony>Mithril. I think if every soilder on team middle earths side had mithril they would definately win. But thats not the case here.

#11 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12368 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Tamriel stomps in a HORRIBLE mismatch, Rohan and Gondor are two kingdoms, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are two COUNTRIES with NINE kingdoms in either country, meaning 18 armies at LEAST. Cyrodiil isn't just composed of Legionares and city gaurds, they have Fighters Guild Mercenaries, Mages Guild Spell Swords, Thieves Guild Saboteurs, Dark Brotherhood Contract Killers, the Blades who are pretty much the Samurai Secret Service of the Empire and the Holy Warriors the Knights of the Nine, all secretly work for the better of the Empire in their own way and all must adhere to the call of war. Skyrim is even more dangerous, besides the Imperial Legion, the Stormclaoks, the Thalmor AND the City Gaurds, they have the A-Team of Werewolf Companions, the Mages College of Winterhold etc, they have the Dawngaurd who are just as good at killing people as they are at killing vampires, the Grey Beards and Parthanax the Dragon who usually stay out out of wars and conflicts but will intervene if it gets to them and they will bring a mountain down with their voices if they have to and there's the DRAGON in Whiterun that they could release to unleash hell on Gondor and Rohan who are what? Infantry and Cavalry each? They are fighting the Imperial Legion, the reserve guards of all nine cities, Skyrim and Cyrodiil Mercs, Battle Mages, Thieves, and Assassins, the Skyrim Legion Division, the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor, Orc Stronghold Warriors, the guards from the nine Skyrim Cities, the Knights of the Nine, the Blades in Cyrodiil and Skyrim, and Dawngaurd, plus Odahviing the Dragon of Whiterun, Grey Beards and their Ancient Dragon Parthanax. 11 armies plus 4 Grey Beards and 2 Dragons vs Rohan and Gondor...........

Gee I wonder who wins?!?!?!?!??!

#12 Posted by hudyman (1735 posts) - - Show Bio

Tamriel Could just send out the champion of cyrodil (Pre Ascended) along with The Dragon Born.

I dont see anything gondor and rohan have that could stop them.

#13 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12368 posts) - - Show Bio

@hudyman said:

Tamriel Could just send out the champion of cyrodil (Pre Ascended) along with The Dragon Born.

I dont see anything gondor and rohan have that could stop them.

The Champion could solo, even before he became a Daedric Deity ...

#14 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: No Dragons or Greybeards.

#15 Posted by GhostRider2 (3500 posts) - - Show Bio

Dragonborn solo with daedric armor and most of the shouts.

#16 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

Hate to rain on everyone's parade, but we don't know a goddamn thing about the population of Cyrodiil and Skyrim nor the sizes and composition of their armies. We know Gondor, on a good day, can field a professional army of perhaps up to a hundred thousand men. It doesn't matter how many mages they have if the Tamriel kingdoms can't field a tenth of that, and so far we have no reason to believe they can. Unless you're willing to argue that the few dozen men we see charging cities in Oblivion and Skyrim are their actual armies, this is abattle that basically cannot be debated at all..

#17 Posted by Agent9149 (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

They're aren't that many guards in skyrim

#18 Posted by hudyman (1735 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@hudyman said:

Tamriel Could just send out the champion of cyrodil (Pre Ascended) along with The Dragon Born.

I dont see anything gondor and rohan have that could stop them.

The Champion could solo, even before he became a Daedric Deity ...

yup

#19 Edited by The_Timely_Assassin (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

@Inphase said:

With magic: Team Tamriel

But what about without magic?

Even without magic they have a serious advantage. The Empire keeps plenty of ebony on hand for times of war, (why do you think it's illegal to sell ebony?) so that they can upgrade their soldiers from the basic imperial steel junk they normally have. Ebony weapons and armor would be too great of an advantage to overcome. The weapons can cleave through armor like it's nothing, and the protection is insane too. In fact, I'd say ebony > LOTRs mithril.

...Wait if it's illegal to sell Ebony how come my Dragonborn can by the stuff buy the truckload from random black smiths?

#20 Posted by hudyman (1735 posts) - - Show Bio

This guy solos.

(Champion of cyrodil)

#21 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Timely_Assassin said:

@Laurcus said:

@Inphase said:

With magic: Team Tamriel

But what about without magic?

Even without magic they have a serious advantage. The Empire keeps plenty of ebony on hand for times of war, (why do you think it's illegal to sell ebony?) so that they can upgrade their soldiers from the basic imperial steel junk they normally have. Ebony weapons and armor would be too great of an advantage to overcome. The weapons can cleave through armor like it's nothing, and the protection is insane too. In fact, I'd say ebony > LOTRs mithril.

...Wait if it's illegal to sell Ebony how come my Dragonborn can by the stuff buy the truckload from random black smiths?

Because F continuity.

But seriously, I'm not well versed on Fourth Era trade policies, but I know it was illegal in the Third Era. And it was just as easy to buy and sell in Morrowind and Oblivion, so once again, F continuity. Many NPCs in Morrowind will tell you that the buying and selling of ebony, (and glass, but no one cares about that) is illegal outside of strict Imperial sanctioned trade. Basically anyone that works at an ebony mine will tell you this, along with a few books. Privately buying and selling ebony is treason.

#22 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus: Yes, I remember this as well,

#23 Posted by Lord_Johnathan (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

At it's peak, the Cyrodilic Empire could send four legions over on an expedition to Akavir, so assuming equivalency to Roman legions, twenty four thousand troops for a cross-oceanic invasion.

#24 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lord_Johnathan said:

At it's peak, the Cyrodilic Empire could send four legions over on an expedition to Akavir, so assuming equivalency to Roman legions, twenty four thousand troops for a cross-oceanic invasion.

There's no real reason to assume that, but even so that was all of Tamriel, not just Cyrodiil.

Also, Roman legions never held 6,000 men. The count always somewhere in between 4,200 and 5,200, meaning if you assume equivalency the Akavir expedition was in the range of 16,000 to 20,000 men.

#25 Posted by Frocharocha (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude, The Elder Scrolls protagonists solos all these armies. the dudes are ridiculous Overepowered. The Lore versions way more. A full powerful DragonBorn can destroy whole continents with i'ts Fus Roh Dah.

#26 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Frocharocha said:

Dude, The Elder Scrolls protagonists solos all these armies. the dudes are ridiculous Overepowered. The Lore versions way more. A full powerful DragonBorn can destroy whole continents with i'ts Fus Roh Dah.

The Elder Scrolls 'armies' are generally a dozen or so guys running wildly without a so much as a passing nod to any sort of tactic or formation so color me a bit unimpressed in that regard.

Now the lore angle sounds more interesting, though I must say I heard no such thing during my playthrough. So some sources would be welcome.

#27 Posted by NeonGameWave (8499 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyrim wrecks. The Champion could solo.

#28 Posted by Lord_Johnathan (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@Lord_Johnathan said:

At it's peak, the Cyrodilic Empire could send four legions over on an expedition to Akavir, so assuming equivalency to Roman legions, twenty four thousand troops for a cross-oceanic invasion.

There's no real reason to assume that, but even so that was all of Tamriel, not just Cyrodiil.

Also, Roman legions never held 6,000 men. The count always somewhere in between 4,200 and 5,200, meaning if you assume equivalency the Akavir expedition was in the range of 16,000 to 20,000 men.

Well assuming equivalency would make sense considering that the Cyrodilic Empire is a ridiculously blatant copy of the Roman Empire and Tamriel is roughly the size of Africa. The eradication of the Akavir Expedition at Ionith was a serious enough loss to be called a "Disaster" though. But to be fair, the Romans would also look dimly upon an expedition that wiped out four of their best legions.

#29 Edited by Frocharocha (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@Frocharocha said:

Dude, The Elder Scrolls protagonists solos all these armies. the dudes are ridiculous Overepowered. The Lore versions way more. A full powerful DragonBorn can destroy whole continents with i'ts Fus Roh Dah.

The Elder Scrolls 'armies' are generally a dozen or so guys running wildly without a so much as a passing nod to any sort of tactic or formation so color me a bit unimpressed in that regard.

Now the lore angle sounds more interesting, though I must say I heard no such thing during my playthrough. So some sources would be welcome.

That's because of gameplay purposes. It's basically impossible to create a 1000 battle in a Elder Scrols game. Every NPC has i'ts own system of dialogues, that's why when you try to spawn battles the game crashes. In fact, the TES armies are just big as from the ones of LTOR.

#30 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lord_Johnathan said:

Well assuming equivalency would make sense considering that the Cyrodilic Empire is a ridiculously blatant copy of the Roman Empire and Tamriel is roughly the size of Africa. The eradication of the Akavir Expedition at Ionith was a serious enough loss to be called a "Disaster" though. But to be fair, the Romans would also look dimly upon an expedition that wiped out four of their best legions.

Yeah, on further thought I suppose assuming legions are legions is reasonable enough. That doesn't invalidate my other points though. It is still an empire of Tamriel, not Cyrodiil.

#31 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Frocharocha said:

That's because of gameplay purposes. It's basically impossible to create a 1000 battle in a Elder Scrols game. Every NPC has i'ts own system of dialogues, that's why when you try to spawn battles the game crashes. In fact, the TES armies are just big as from the ones of LTOR.

We have no other source other than the gameplay. I mean, if you dig out some novelization or lore which states with even remote certainty how big their armies are, I'm all ears. But until then just saying their armies are as big as the LOTR ones doesn't make it so.

#32 Edited by Kellar21 (444 posts) - - Show Bio

The things you see in game are just representations,it has always been that way.

In Oblivion,the Imperial City would be the size of the whole map,the city in the game is smaller than the Mage's guild.It has close to 1 million habitants.

In Skyrim,Solitude is way bigger and has way over 150000 people,Whiterun is also bigger and with around 60000 people,that battle in the civil war had like 20000 soldiers in both sides.

With that in mind I think TES wins because they have acess to magic and advanced materials(ebony and enchantments),while mithril is very,very rare in LOTR.There's also the fact that 3rd age Kingdoms were just a shadow of what they once were.

A better match would be the Kingdom of Númenor and the Noldor armies,that would be interesting.

#33 Edited by Militaris (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Just prior to the War with Saruman it was likely that Rohan could muster 15,000 men. While Gondor had a army of around 15,000 guarding Minas Tirith, with a further 30,000 guarding the southern fiefs.

Plus they may, or might not have access to the army of the dead.

Sadly these no half decent way to estimate the army sizes of the Cyrodiil and Skyrim.

#34 Edited by Tr41light (1 posts) - - Show Bio
@kellar21 said:

The things you see in game are just representations,it has always been that way.

In Oblivion,the Imperial City would be the size of the whole map,the city in the game is smaller than the Mage's guild.It has close to 1 million habitants.

In Skyrim,Solitude is way bigger and has way over 150000 people,Whiterun is also bigger and with around 60000 people,that battle in the civil war had like 20000 soldiers in both sides.

With that in mind I think TES wins because they have acess to magic and advanced materials(ebony and enchantments),while mithril is very,very rare in LOTR.There's also the fact that 3rd age Kingdoms were just a shadow of what they once were.

A better match would be the Kingdom of Númenor and the Noldor armies,that would be interesting.

No offense but the first 3 sentences looks like they were made by a kid and there is a reason why people don't put random numbers. Yes Mithril is very rare and yes during the Third Age Gondor, Rohan, Anor, the Race of Men were a shadow of it's former self which can also be said about Cyrodiil during the Fourth Era as for Rohan it's debatable since Rohan sure didn't participate in the Last Alliance.

#35 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

Boromir solos. FOR GONDOR!

#36 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

I call bollocks on Elder Scrolls victory if magic is not counted.

Just prior to the War with Saruman it was likely that Rohan could muster 15,000 men. While Gondor had a army of around 15,000 guarding Minas Tirith, with a further 30,000 guarding the southern fiefs.

Plus they may, or might not have access to the army of the dead.

Sadly these no half decent way to estimate the army sizes of the Cyrodiil and Skyrim.

I counted for Cyrodiil... In-game, the capital has about 40 soldiers. Did you see the "final battle" where they gathered all the strength of Cyrodiil? There was like 20 soldiers all in all!!!

I think Skyrim ha a higher number but I'm being generous in giving them 500 soldier all in all.

#37 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (19594 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't played tes a lot, but from what I've seen of skyrim, how much will be the total ? Like.. 1500?

#38 Edited by reikai (4575 posts) - - Show Bio

Armies in the Skyrim game are not to scale. Just like in WoW. WoW game, you only see a couple dozen guys in a fort, plus people outside for the army. Actual novelization, there's several hundred people at forts and castles and thousands camped outside.

And you should know no matter how many bandits you kill, there will always be more bandits in the same place again later on. ESO is pretty much showing us how massive the armies are in TES-verse. Anyway, TES has an abundance of magic users; conjurers, battlemages, necromancers, etc. Gondor and Rohan just don't have anything that can save them in that area.

#39 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12368 posts) - - Show Bio

Elderscrolls people still winning ....... yeah...

#40 Posted by Kellar21 (444 posts) - - Show Bio

@tr41light

No offense but the first 3 sentences looks like they were made by a kid and there is a reason why people don't put random numbers. Yes Mithril is very rare and yes during the Third Age Gondor, Rohan, Anor, the Race of Men were a shadow of it's former self which can also be said about Cyrodiil during the Fourth Era as for Rohan it's debatable since Rohan sure didn't participate in the Last Alliance.

None taken,those numbers are relatively correct according to other sources in lore I believe(in-game books,MK,etc...),I got them from the TES Lore reddit(IIRC,it has been some time).Although I can't pinpoint the sources I believe they are correct as they do not contradict the known lore and IIRC game developers said it was this way.(the scale I mean)

Even then, magic is non-debatable,magic in TES is much more prolific and useful for battle,while in LOTR few could use it that way(Galadriel,Gandalf,Elrond?),there's still conjuration and necromancy.

Again 2nd Age and 1st and 2nd Age Noldor armies would be a better match(it would be a HUGE debate over Númenor tech level(they had flying ships and ironclads!!!),but them so did the Empire(and their ships to fly in the Aetherius)

#41 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Discounting the overpowered TES champion characters and what not, TES verse would win.

#42 Posted by XLR87T3 (2999 posts) - - Show Bio

Watch 1:28-5:59. A single Archmage can solo an army of 150 men attacking him at once. Durability and offense are outstanding.

#43 Posted by joshmccloud1 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

I love both franchises, I think they are both great, but I'm gonna have to give it to LOTR.

Gondor has the Army of the Dead. With or without magic, TES loses. All of the regular soldiers would be wiped out in one charge, and there would be too many spectral soldiers for all the magic users in Nirn to deal with. These are not your average ghosts, their blades ignore all armor and weapons and cut straight into the flesh. I highly doubt that a simple Turn Undead Spell would do anything to them. The legion troops are all wearing shitty leather armor with patches of chainmail here and there and there. Hardly any of them wear the plate metal legion armor that's actually worth a damn. The Stormcloaks wear ragtag padded leather/chainmail armor with little metal studs. Gondor's soldiers are each outfitted with leather hauberks over which is a layer of chainmail, and over that is gondor steel plate mail. Cyrodil and Skyrim have no great cavalry to speak of and Rohan's cavalry charged at mumakil oliphants over 4 stories tall..... and won. Rohirrim riders have better armor than most of the empire and Stormcloaks. Plus Giant Eagles and Ents. Besides, Gandalf is immortal, whoop any archmage's ass even on a bad day.

I know there's some grammatical errors in there, but lets have a modicum of maturity and just pay attention to the overall message.

#44 Edited by reikai (4575 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Gondor doesn't have an undead army. That was a one-time deal for Aragorn, not for Gondor.

2. TES have dealt with undead; skeletons, draugr, zombies, liches, ghosts and specters. Battlemages have this in the bag.

3. Gandalf as The Gray/White is worthless. As a Mortal Wizard, his power is crap next to TES mages. Skyrim has the College of Winterhold and Cyrodill has their own magic academy group.

4. Skyrim townguards and orc strongholds deal with Giants and their Mammoths. The Empire has dealt with numerous threats over millennia. The latest of which being both the Thalmor and the return of the Dragons.

5. Magic users in TES can reduce people to ashes effortlessly. TES online proved that.

#45 Edited by joshmccloud1 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Gandalf defeated a Balrog, a giant demon made of fire and darkness, powers: fire breath, giant sword of fire, giant whip of fire, flight. Read the Silmarillion and you'll see just how pathetic dragons are compared to a Balrog, demon of the underworld. Legolas could just shoot all the mages in the head from over 150 yards away. Legolas fought alongside Gondor and Rohan soldiers in more than one instance, he counts.

Yeah, the Empire "dealt" with the Thalmor(who, I assume wouldn't be fighting alongside Skyrim, and Cyrodil). Unconditional surrender aka defeat isn't really a good thing to base your argument on. Giants and mammoths are nothing compared to mumakil, trolls, and the fell winged beasts the nazgul rode. And I might consider letting TES have the "with magic" victory, but without it, TES gets ground into the dust by the steeds of Rohan, and the steel of Gondor.

Also, Aragorn is the King of Gondor, why assume that he's already used the Army of the Dead? No one has set a specific time for the battle. We can just assume he has it up his sleeve. Besides, he didn't have to release the dead from service. If you want to cry and whine about whether Gondor gets the Army of the Dead, then TES doesn't get Paarthurnax, Odaahving, or the greybeards. Orc strongholds only care about themselves, they wouldn't participate. Expecting them to fight would be like expecting the thousands of bandits to fight as well.