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#1 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku at Frieza Saga in Super Saiyan 1, represented by Thedarklordpandamonium

VERSUS

Yusuke Uramishi from the 3 King Saga, represented by Cadencev2 (sorry if this isn't the right pic, just link me to one)

~RULES~

-Both contestants will fight on Planet Namek just before it was destroyed; Yusuke has just killed Krillin, triggering Super Saiyan 1, and Goku has just killed...uh...someone Yusuke holds dear. Making Yusuke mad. Or something. (cadence, ideas?)

-Contestants start 1 mile apart

-Death Battle will not be referenced, for the sake of Thedarklordpandamonium not going Super Saiyan <- rule broken. Doesn't matter, since I curbstomped.

-Enough taunting and epic statements that morals may as well be on, but morals are actually off

~POST-VOTING~

Final Tally:

9-4 in favor of Goku represented by thedarklordpandamonium.

#2 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Notifications are bugged, but would you like to have the first post or shall I?

#3 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@cadencev2: Notifications are bugged, but would you like to have the first post or shall I?

You can go first :)

BTW that is the right pick. For the sake of the OP Goku kills Kurabara triggering Yuske Demon Mode.

IT IS ON!!!!!!!!!!

#4 Posted by SheenLantern (6453 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by dondave (35990 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good

#6 Posted by dondave (35990 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by nickzambuto (13327 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

At first look, SSJ1 Goku has the edge, looking forward to this.

#9 Posted by Jgames (1678 posts) - - Show Bio

Only way darklord is losing is if he horrible, because his only arguement he need to say is planet buster, yusuke tanked a nuke like blast, goku is a freaking planet buster XD

#10 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jgames said:

Only way darklord is losing is if he horrible, because his only arguement he need to say is planet buster, yusuke tanked a nuke like blast, goku is a freaking planet buster XD

The only way he is winning with that argument if he can prove that. Any feats of Goku blowing up a planet with one blast? Frieza could not even blow up Namek with one hit. He had to blow the core of the planet and it took 5 minuets!

So do not even go there with that lame argument.

#11 Edited by unBREAKable_Fs4 (1628 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good

Good luck to both debaters.

#12 Posted by camera_guy (233 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku FTW

@jgames said:

Only way darklord is losing is if he horrible, because his only arguement he need to say is planet buster, yusuke tanked a nuke like blast, goku is a freaking planet buster XD

This

#13 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

: AWWW YE!

So let me begin the murderstomp.

*cracks neck*

~Post dedicated to Kakarot88, He Who Watches From Above~

(if you want to skip this just ctrl+f 'conclusion')

Speed

The first advantage Goku has is his speed.

These are scans of Goku, in one of his earliest showings, before he had undergone basically any training or power increases or anything, dodging bullets from the Red Ribbon Army's AK-47s.

According to wikipedia AK-47 bullets move at 715 m/s, so on the lowest of low end showings Goku before any formulae must move at 715 m/s.

Now, there are arguments that his training exponentially increased his speed or something but as I consider these simply 'character statements' and not proof of worth we are going to be STICKING WITH 715 M/S.

(this will become much greater later on, as we put it into various formulae)

Strength

Now, I'm sure you all know that Goku can lift 40 tons in base form.

b*llsh*t.

Goku does not have a ki aura here!

Now, why is this important?

Well, ki auras are the auras around DBZ characters that form when they exert themselves. Goku had NO ki aura, and thus he was not exerting himself. Makes sense, as Saiyans ONLY exert themselves faced with OPPONENTS -not actual training.

This is Trunks suppressing his ki aura, all the way down to that of a human:

So, how much WAS he suppressing his ki aura?

Nobody knows, so this feat is basically useless.

BUT WHAT ISN'T USELESS is this feat:

which is teenage Goku easily throwing Piccolo.

Now in that particular scene, Piccolo stands approximatey 5.3 Goku's tall. Goku is listed at 5'9" and Piccolo at 7'5". Scaling them I was able to come that Piccolo stood 30.475ft tall.

5.3 Goku's x 69 inches (gokus height) = 30.475ft tall

That was an increase of over 400%

Using this I was able to calculate Piccolo's scaled weight. Piccolo base is stated to weigh 255lbs. When scaled up to 30.5ft a Giant Piccolo would weight over 16500 lbs. That is 8 tons alone.

8 tons you say? Pssh..that's no where near the 40 tons. Yeah true, but you have to consider that the 40 tons was attached to Goku's body. Piccolo was not. Because of that Goku used it as a lever.

Levers eh?

Piccolo's arm is 41% of his height and weighs approximately 5% of his total weight. This was calculated through measurements of artwork and through human anatomy.

So how long is Piccolo's arm?

According to the data, 41% of Piccolo's arm is about 149inches or 12.41ft. This arm would weight roughly 825lbs. That would leave the rest of his body to weight 15675lbs.

Off of some of the artwork I examined I was able to determine that the tip of Piccolo's finger was approximately 1/8 the size of his head. This is where Goku picked im up and threw him. So how long is it in comparison to his body?

The number comes out at 1.59 inches. He's a pretty big boy! And when that number is scaled in proportion to his height, it shows that goku grabs about 6.5 inches of his hand to throw him. (Nails not included -.-)

Now. When you put all of that information into a simple lever equation....it shows that goku had to lift with AT LEAST

359319.23 pounds of force in order to throw GIANT PICCOLO.

That's about 180 tons lifted as a teenager at Earth's gravity.

The next thing we have to go on is Goku's training in the Capsule Corporation Spaceship in 100x gravity, where he can easily move around, even do pull-ups and push-ups, etc -and even states that he's now become 'used' to 100x gravity. This means that, in base form without any boosts except for the regular Oozaro Great Ape, Goku can lift...*drumroll*

18,000 tons!

Nifty, eh?

(again, this will become vastly greater once we put it through various formulae)

...except, y'know, this has no Ki Factor.

-.-

See, unlike most comics where feats are lifting heavy objects such as the earth, DBZ bases its character's strength ENTIRELY around striking with ki blasts.

So what we need...

...is striking strength.

(Now, I'm not going to use any scans for this next part, as most of these events are common knowledge, but if you need them just ask.)

Now, the infamous Goku vs Frieza fight is obviously going to be the peak of these calcs, as it shows the Goku we're using here.

Freiza’s durability is unable to withstand Goku's final blast to him on Namek BUT when the planet exploded he did not sustain any more damage. Frieza’s body was able to withstand the explosion of a medium sized planet without virtually any ki.

This is Goku's final blast to Frieza:

Even after the planet blowing up, Frieza doesn't take any damage more than the damage he took from Goku's final blast.

This means that, without basically any ki and CUT IN HALF, Frieza can tank the explosion of Planet Namek, which is the size of Earth.

This makes sense, since Frieza easily kicks away planet-busting attacks:

And, of course, Goku also survives the explosion of Planet Namek.

However, Frieza could NOT tank Goku's blast - meaning that Goku's blast HAD to have been just as destructive if not more than the blast which destroyed Namek, as otherwise Frieza would have laughed it off. Realistically this is like 2x or 4x based on power scaling and other stuff, but as I'm not using power-scaling we'll just assume it was enough energy to destroy Namek.

Namek, of course, is the size of the earth according to V-Jump.

Now, how much energy does it take to destroy the Earth?

Well, according to some grad students here it's 10^32 J. This means that Goku, in SS1, can easily tank and dish out blows that are far more than capable of destroying the Earth.

Power Multipliers

As we all know, the creator of DBZ, Akira Toriyama, didn't want to go through training every time Goku got a power boost to show off his limits, so rather created a set of multipliers that we, the fans, could use to find out Goku's potential.

First, by drinking the 'sacred water' atop Karin's Tower.

Now, what exactly IS this power increase?

Well, unfortunately, the English translation is idiotic and includes Vegeta making fun of Goku for not having a tail.

This is the Japanese scan:

Which, translated, means:

"Wanna hear something good?... When a Saiyan becomes an Oozaru, they reveal their true battle power 10 times what it is in human form!!!!"

But don't take my word for it -take the word of the Kanzenshuu, the official DBZ source.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-233/

Vegeta then explains to him that an Ōzaru Saiyan has a battle power ten times that of one in their human form. This means all of Goku's stats have now been MULTIPLIED BY TEN!

So here we obtain the first factor in our multiplication formula - x10.

As mentioned before, the next factor we have is Goku's training in the 100x gravity of the Capsule Corporation spaceship -after which he ADJUSTED TO 100X GRAVITY!

How is this possible? Well, it's because Saiyans have the unique ability to fight anywhere, overcoming and adapting to EVERYTHING. When Goku underwent training in Grand Kai's planet and did the infamous 40 ton-lifting feat, he actually managed to become straight-up 10 times better, as he adapted to live in 10 times gravity and as a result carried that over to Earth.

Thus, we can take Death Battle's 'gravity formula' stat of 586 and multiply that by 4.5 (180/40=4.5) and then another 10 (100/10=10) to get 45 x 586 for a whopping 26,370 times multiplier!

So here we obtain the second factor in our multiplication formula -x26,370

Let's keep going, shall we?

Next we have the Kaoi-Ken, Goku's ability to just flat-out increase his abilities, by a factor of up to...

...20!

So here we obtain the third factor in our multiplication formula - x20. x10 for great ape, x26,370 for gravity formula and now x20 for kaio-ken.

But we're not even done yet -I'm using Goku of the Frieza Saga for this fight.

And, if you remember this:

Then you'll remember that Goku in the Frieza also just casually happens to be...

...a mother.

flipping.

SUPER SAIYAN!!!

And this, as you all know, multiplies his already-incredible power by 50.

So here we obtain the last factor in our multiplication formula - x50. x10 for great ape, x26,370 for gravity formula, x20 for kaio-ken, and now x50 for super saiyan 1.

So now we're going to multiply ALL the stats we have to get Goku's power in the Frieza saga.

Conclusion - Goku's Stats in SS1

Speed:

715 m/s x 10 x 26,370 x 20 x 50 = 188,545,500,000 m/s, or 628.920091 times the speed of light.

Multipliers used:

-Great Ape x10

-Gravity Formula x26,370

-Kaio-Ken x20

-Super Saiyan 1 x50

Strength:

18,000 tons x 20 x 50 = 18,000,000 or 18 million tons.

Multipliers used:

-Kaio-Ken x20

-Super Saiyan 1 x50

Striking Power:

10^32 x 20 = 2^33, or enough energy to destroy 20 planets.

Multipliers used:

-Kaio-Ken x20

So, Goku is:

-628.920091 times the speed of light

-Strong enough to lift 18 million tons

-Powerful enough to destroy 20 planets at once

-Durable enough to tank a 20-planet-shattering-blow or 20 planet-shattering blows

(Note: I used only the most lowball-y feats. Not lowballing, Goku is:

-The speed of light squared

-Strong enough to lift a planet

-Powerful enough to destroy 20 solar systems

-Durable enough to tank a 20-solar-system-shattering-blow or 20 solar-system-shattering blows)

So combine Goku's massively superior stats with the fact that he's a genius fighter (no instant transmission, he learned instant transmission after frieza saga) and...

Checkmate, Cadencev2. Checkmate.

#14 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be interesting.

@cadencev2 said:

@jgames said:

Only way darklord is losing is if he horrible, because his only arguement he need to say is planet buster, yusuke tanked a nuke like blast, goku is a freaking planet buster XD

The only way he is winning with that argument if he can prove that. Any feats of Goku blowing up a planet with one blast? Frieza could not even blow up Namek with one hit. He had to blow the core of the planet and it took 5 minuets!

So do not even go there with that lame argument.

The reason why Frieza did not blow up Namek outright was because of the energy he had at the time and he wanted to challenge Goku at full power, also he didn`t target the core. In his base form he destroyed Planet Vegeta with a PL of 530,000 and that planet has 10x the gravitational force of Earth, Goku during the Saiyan Saga would easily have enough power to blow up a planet his PL was 150,000,000 when he went up against Frieza in his Final Form who had a PL of 120,000,000.

#15 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

Welllll I just posted about everything I had to say...e_e

#16 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@neongamewave:

Welllll I just posted about everything I had to say...e_e

My post was an earlier one. I know, just read it and you did a great job in the introduction to how powerful SSJ1 Goku is.

#17 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku fanboys. I could say S Class demons can also destroy Planets with the feats and statements, but DBZ fanboys are impossible lol.

@thedarklordpandamonium I am kicking this off. Your taking too long and the DBZ Fanboys are getting reckless =)

First thing to note is everyone claiming "Goku can blow up a planet!" "Goku can move Speed of Light!" "Goku is stronger than god!" All BS.

First thing first... Power Levels

Power levels have NO BEARING on anything in life. Sorry DBZ fanboys, it does not.

Dragon Ball ENTIRE series no Power Levels.

Dragon Ball Z Sayain to Frieza Saga. Power Levels are used.

Dragon Ball Z Android to Cell Saga. No Power levels mention.

Dragon Ball Z Cell Saga through Buu Saga. No Power Levels Menation.

Dragon Ball GT (Uncanon but still there) No Power Levels said or mention.

Dragon Ball Z Movies... NO POWER LEVELS!

So any argument on Power Levels is base on a 2 out of 20 saga showings of Power Levels?

Kinda weak isnt it? Especially when the Power Levels are dismiss by the creator of DBZ already in statements to fans.

Ouch... that hurts the whole power level argument.

Energy Power

Question. Can Goku blow up a Moon?

Answer. Yes I believe he can, Roshi and Piccolo did it.

Question. Can Goku blow up a Planet?

Answer. Not in one blast during Frieza Saga. Frieza himself failed to blow up Namek after being at 100% power! Also he could ONLY blow up the planet by hitting the core of the planet. I can blow up earth by sending 3 or 4 nukes in the earths core.

Goku is not a "OMG I can vaporize the planet" at SS1.

Speed

Question. Is Goku faster than light?

Answer. Hell no. You said we cannot use Death Battle. That is fine, however the math on the speed is well done.

Base Goku was close to Mach 44 at Super Sayain 1.

This is by far the MOST Accurate Speed of Goku in the whole DBZ Feat list!

Now this is not including the The x100 Times Gravity training. So he may well be around Mach 100 area.

What about Yuske!? Well, here is some good math calcs.

Sensui Speed (Which was inferior to Yuske's in the battle) was Around Mach 50+

Then Yuske after training more than doubling his power for the 3 Kings Saga.

Here is one. Mach 357.

Here is another lowballing at Mach 102.

Fact is Yuske is clearly between Mach 100-350 during 3 Kings.

What is the point of all this? I think Yuske is faster than Goku during 3 Kings Saga than Goku was as SS1 during Frieza Saga.

Strength and Durability

No doubt this will be the core of the debate.

#18 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Wow your stats are so messed up. You made this for Super Sayain one? Over a million tons? LOLOL

And that is Base Line Goku from BUU SAGA!!!

Your Calcs are WAY OFF!

What About Yuske? Yuske as a S Class Demon power is so insane the Human World cannot contain it!

Also Yuske as a S Class demon is a world buster just by flexing his muscles.

Here Yuske nearly breaks the City Size Battlefield flexing!

Yuske Spirit Gun leaves a 500 foot deep Gash way over the Horizen.

Yuske Spirit Gun as a way weaker B Class Demon was City Busting in size.

Yuske moves so fast that he can Speed Blitz A and S Class demons in a near instant.

Here the weaker Sensui had to hold his power back to not destroy the earth.

Yuske is busting Mountains with a punch.

Yuske so powerful he makes Tornados with his Punches!

Sensui as a S Class and busting Mountains with a punch could not kill the A Class Kurama, Kurabara, or Hiei in a 10 minuet beatdown.

As S Classes there Durability is greater.

The weak S Class Sensui remains unaffected by the Japan Earthquaking energy of Koenma with ease.

Hiei gets some bruise ribs from a attack with the force of a Nuke.

CONCLUSION!

Check Mate.

#19 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: You know Frieza chose not to blow up Namek because he wanted to fight Goku? Also Goku was moving at hypersonic speeds during Dragon Ball and he escaped Frieza`s light ball which explodes instantly, he did this all in base form, as he also dodged a laser and became faster than lightning within Dragon Ball once again and he dodged Tien`s Solar Flare just in time to snatch Roshi`s sunglasses and Roshi moves at supersonic speeds as well as reacts at those speeds. If he can`t blow up a planet then that mean`s Frieza can`t and we all know that is a blatant lie as Frieza blew up Planet Vegeta. Claiming Yusuke can blow up a planet while Goku can`t is considered to be a form of bias in my book and it would be more speculation on your part than on any DBZ fan`s part to believe it to be true without proof while having to resort to a form of powerscaling in your own way. I know both series extremely well having read the Yu Yu Hakusho manga, watched the entire anime while the same can be obviously said for DBZ and I know for a fact that Yusuke even in his Mazoku form doesn`t stand a chance against a SSJ1 Goku.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2970-5/dragon-ball/chapter-321.html

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2972-10/dragon-ball/chapter-323.html

#20 Edited by Dratini1331 (7028 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it sad that the thing I'm most held up one here is that Goku is only 5'9"? I'm just sitting here like, "He's a great hero of fiction, and he's only 5'9"? Bull!" ... I guess that makes sense though...

Also, bookmarked for later ^.^

#21 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@cadencev2: You know Frieza chose not to blow up Namek because he wanted to fight Goku? Also Goku was moving at hypersonic speeds during Dragon Ball and he escaped Frieza`s light ball which explodes instantly, he did this all in base form, as he also dodged a laser and became faster than lightning within Dragon Ball once again and he dodged Tien`s Solar Flare just in time to snatch Roshi`s sunglasses and Roshi moves at supersonic speeds as well as reacts at those speeds. If he can`t blow up a planet then that mean`s Frieza can`t and we all know that is a blatant lie as Frieza blew up Planet Vegeta. Claiming Yusuke can blow up a planet while Goku can`t is considered to be a form of bias in my book and it would be more speculation on your part than on any DBZ fan`s part to believe it to be true without proof while having to resort to a form of powerscaling in your own way. I know both series extremely well having read the Yu Yu Hakusho manga, watched the entire anime while the same can be obviously said for DBZ.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2970-5/dragon-ball/chapter-321.html

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2972-10/dragon-ball/chapter-323.html

He tried to blow up the planet, he did not want to fight Goku, he was afraid of Goku! He even says how he missed the core.

Point is the argument of Frieza being a Planet Vaporizer is false. He can destroy Planets, but not into atoms like some people belive. He does it by destroying the cores.

As for faster than Tiens Lights. Bulls**t. He moves before Tien fired the attack. As simple as that.

Debunked.

Also why are you interfering in my CAV?! WTF!

#22 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be interesting.

The reason why Frieza did not blow up Namek outright was because of the energy he had at the time and he wanted to challenge Goku at full power, also he didn`t target the core. In his base form he destroyed Planet Vegeta with a PL of 530,000 and that planet has 10x the gravitational force of Earth, Goku during the Saiyan Saga would easily have enough power to blow up a planet his PL was 150,000,000 when he went up against Frieza in his Final Form who had a PL of 120,000,000.

Also Power Levels?! Really?!

First thing first... Power Levels

Power levels have NO BEARING on anything in life. Sorry DBZ fanboys, it does not.

Dragon Ball ENTIRE series no Power Levels.

Dragon Ball Z Sayain to Frieza Saga. Power Levels are used.

Dragon Ball Z Android to Cell Saga. No Power levels mention.

Dragon Ball Z Cell Saga through Buu Saga. No Power Levels Menation.

Dragon Ball GT (Uncanon but still there) No Power Levels said or mention.

Dragon Ball Z Movies... NO POWER LEVELS!

So any argument on Power Levels is base on a 2 out of 20 saga showings of Power Levels?

Kinda weak isnt it? Especially when the Power Levels are dismiss by the creator of DBZ already in statements to fans.

Ouch... that hurts the whole power level argument.

Power Levels mean JACKL S**T!

#23 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@neongamewave said:

@cadencev2: You know Frieza chose not to blow up Namek because he wanted to fight Goku? Also Goku was moving at hypersonic speeds during Dragon Ball and he escaped Frieza`s light ball which explodes instantly, he did this all in base form, as he also dodged a laser and became faster than lightning within Dragon Ball once again and he dodged Tien`s Solar Flare just in time to snatch Roshi`s sunglasses and Roshi moves at supersonic speeds as well as reacts at those speeds. If he can`t blow up a planet then that mean`s Frieza can`t and we all know that is a blatant lie as Frieza blew up Planet Vegeta. Claiming Yusuke can blow up a planet while Goku can`t is considered to be a form of bias in my book and it would be more speculation on your part than on any DBZ fan`s part to believe it to be true without proof while having to resort to a form of powerscaling in your own way. I know both series extremely well having read the Yu Yu Hakusho manga, watched the entire anime while the same can be obviously said for DBZ.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2970-5/dragon-ball/chapter-321.html

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2972-10/dragon-ball/chapter-323.html

He tried to blow up the planet, he did not want to fight Goku, he was afraid of Goku! He even says how he missed the core.

Point is the argument of Frieza being a Planet Vaporizer is false. He can destroy Planets, but not into atoms like somepeople belive. He does it by destroying the cores.

As for faster than Tiens Lights. Bulls**t. He moves before Tien fired the attack. As simple as that.

Debunked.

Also why are you interfering in my CAV?! WTF!

Frieza didn`t want to blow up the planet and if you can tell the after effects of their fight left to the damaging and destruction of Namek in the end, Frieza did not exert himself or use up all of his power he was just concern with having to stay on the planet and have his energy drain from the explosion.

Not true. So why was he able to destroy Planet Vegeta in one blast in his weakest form it never targeted the core, it started vaporizing from the beginning.

Do you have any proof? Goku even dodges a laser and was moving at supersonic speeds in the beginning so him being FTL during the beginning of Dragon Ball Z makes sense, Tien`s Solar Flare was fired immediately and it is meant to be a blinding light as well that encompasses most of the area.

Not trying to interfere to stir anything just trying to point out the inaccuracies because the structure of your statements seemed to be heavily biased towards Yu Yu Hakusho making the purpose of this matchup a concern brought to my attention.

#24 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@neongamewave said:

This is going to be interesting.

The reason why Frieza did not blow up Namek outright was because of the energy he had at the time and he wanted to challenge Goku at full power, also he didn`t target the core. In his base form he destroyed Planet Vegeta with a PL of 530,000 and that planet has 10x the gravitational force of Earth, Goku during the Saiyan Saga would easily have enough power to blow up a planet his PL was 150,000,000 when he went up against Frieza in his Final Form who had a PL of 120,000,000.

Also Power Levels?! Really?!

First thing first... Power Levels

Power levels have NO BEARING on anything in life. Sorry DBZ fanboys, it does not.

Dragon Ball ENTIRE series no Power Levels.

Dragon Ball Z Sayain to Frieza Saga. Power Levels are used.

Dragon Ball Z Android to Cell Saga. No Power levels mention.

Dragon Ball Z Cell Saga through Buu Saga. No Power Levels Menation.

Dragon Ball GT (Uncanon but still there) No Power Levels said or mention.

Dragon Ball Z Movies... NO POWER LEVELS!

So any argument on Power Levels is base on a 2 out of 20 saga showings of Power Levels?

Kinda weak isnt it? Especially when the Power Levels are dismiss by the creator of DBZ already in statements to fans.

Ouch... that hurts the whole power level argument.

Power Levels mean JACKL S**T!

Not true. They lose relevancy after the earlier arcs because of how much more powerful the characters become but they are for the most part consistent for there to be valid arguments as to why one character excels over the other during a fight that is the truth to their meaning of existence and they are made further important within the official handbooks as well as guidebooks such as Kanzenshuu as well as Super Exciting Guide also they are referred throughout the manga but by different methods of interpretation as proven with Babidi`s kili measurements. Which is what you overlooked and it doesn`t disapprove why Goku wouldn`t be able to blow up a planet, putting destructive output aside, his punches even in base - SSJ1 form were able to severely damage Frieza who has planetary durability and the same character who can tank a Spirit Bomb so how does Yusuke compete with him exactly? Also this was accomplished by a Goku with morals and Goku was holding some power back during the actual fight.

#25 Edited by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Your counter-argument was using Death Battle.

*shakes head*

Well, I'm ready for votes if that's your only response.

Looking at all your scans you have nothing on SS1 Goku if you're resorting to Death Battle.

They used 586 instead of 26,370 in their gravity formula and didn't account for the x10 for great ape oozaro. That's like a x500 difference even if you're going off of that scan, which is of TRANSVERSE SPEED not combat speed. Bruce Lee, Usain Bolt...you know the drill. (if anyone wants me to prove his transverse speed is uber-fast too I can do that, but for now Goku traveled across Namek which was stated as the size of earth in a second and not instant transmission since he learned that after this occured. And after the formula, this makes him even more massively ftl.)

My scans were of Goku dodging 715 m/s bullets, so he moves 715 m/s. In SS1 with all the multipliers, he's 628-odd times the speed of light. I proved this incontestably and your only response was to quote Death Battle at me.

#27 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Your counter-argument was using Death Battle.

*shakes head*

Well, I'm ready for votes if that's your only response. Looking at all your scans you have nothing on SS1 Goku if you're resorting to Death Battle. They used 586 instead of 26,370 in their gravity formula and didn't account for the x10 for great ape oozaro. That's like a x500 difference even if you're going off of that scan, which is of TRANSVERSE SPEED not combat speed. Bruce Lee, Usain Bolt...you know the drill. My scans were of Goku dodging 715 m/s bullets, so he moves 715 m/s. I win.

Yeah I am ready for votes sense most of what your argument is really base on lack of feats and proof.

As for Neogamer hijacking this and debating for you with more baseless feats, I am ready for votes.Closing Arguments.

Strength and Durability

All increases with his jump to S Class.

He can clearly punch 20+ Toguro Class Demons into Space now.

Sensui also explain in metaphorical detail how durable A Class and S Class beings are.

He link it to the most powerful attacks only taking a little HP at a time. Proving how insane durable these beings are.

Aura

Yuske receives insane power boost once he makes the jump to S Class, fully accessing his Demon Energy as well Spirit Energy.

Powers of S Class is very serious. They are considered World wreckers and hence why they need to stay in the Demon Realm where the Plane is larger and more Durable. Examples below.

1) King Yamma who is a A Class throws such powerful fits in the Underworld, it crosses dimensions into the Human World as some of the worst Earth Quakes and Disasters in human history.

2-3) Sensui releases some of his S Class power, he has to hold most of it back still in fear of destroying the planet.

4-5) Yuske and Sensui punches and speed generate mass Tornados.

6-8) Sensui is hit by a Forcefield Barrier that is design to contain planet wrecking S Class power. Sensui breaks free of it and sends it into space. The whole of Japan had a earthquake in Sensui forcing this energy away from him.

A and S class demons are such a threat and so powerful that the Underworld, barely with a hand full of A Class beings themselves, are force to make Barriers that keep such power away from their realm and the human realm.

Another example below.

Just to gauge the power of S Classes. Her is a Battle Field the size of a city, by merley charging up for attacks, the power of Yuske threatens to break this Battlefield in pieces.

Yuske S Class power also transforms Pu, his demon beast that reflects his own soul, who is used for speed and travel.

Pu's durability shrugs off A Class beings best shots.

Pu's speed is a flash of light across Japan.

As for Yuske Rei Gun, it greatly enhances in power.

1-3) Rei Gun leaves a deep gash across the planet and leads to over the Horizen.

4-5) Rei Gun casual Mountain busts and proves capable of one shotting Sensui in his most powerful Defense form.

Yuske is so powerful at this point that he can knock back A Class beings with a shouted Arua Blast.

Yuske also increases his durability via Healing.

Yuske also has Aura Healing that he learned from Genkai to heal the most debilitating wounds in seconds.

Battles

First set of battles is Yuske easily overpowering Humans who gain special powers.

Like the Doctor. A human who can cut anything like a razor with his hands as well heal any wound. He also possess faster than the human can see speed and super human durability. His last power was Demon Insects that he control in his "zone" that can infect anyone with a bite with a debilitating sickness. Yuske simply was too much for him in this one sided battle.

Then Yuske cracking the case of this powerful former detective Sensui, is engaged in a chase scene of Sensui. This leads him to battle the very unique Sniper.

Sniper can infuse any object with his Spirit Energy and Control, as well propel them with the force of a Sniper Rifle round, Mach 2+ roughly. Add to that he marked Yuske so all hit projectiles would never miss. In the end it was Hiei own speed that stepped in and ended this threat.

The we are treated to another sweet and quick match of A class Hiei vs Yuske.

Speed wise Yuske has improved alot.

Lets look at the very Epic Battle of Yuske vs Sensui!

Yuske as a A Class fights and prevails over the A Class personalities of Sensui. Sensui then switches into his main personality, the Holy Chi S Class Sensui. He easily kills Yuske in this form. This Death leads to Yuske reaching S Class demon power himself.

Yuske as a S Class Demon just dominates the Holy Chi S Class Sensui. Even more so when Yuske S Class Demon father took control of Yuske body to show Yuske how to properly use Yuske full power. Something Yuske did not wish to do.

The last full battle we see is Yuske preparing to become strong enough to take his father place as 1 of the 3 strongest Demons in the Demon Plane. He beats the S Class Hokushin and 3 other A classes in short order.

After all this Yuske ends up throwing a Dark Tournament with the most powerful Demons. The winner rules the Demon Plane.

Another of waht can be considered the last full battles is Yuske easily speed blitzing and knocking into space 20+ A Class demons.

The true final battle of Yuske was against one of the Top 3 most powerful demons in the Demon plane, Yomi. I am not bothering posting the whole fight, as it is not there. It is nothing more really than Yuske swapping 2 blows with Yomi before the book cuts out. Then Yuske breaks it down how long their match was and who won after 60 hours of fighting Yomi straight before losing to Yomi! However this left that powerful Demon in such bad shape that he lost to a weaker foe. At the end of the day a Winner was declared.

Yuske so wins this.

#28 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Notification system does not, of course, work, so I just PM'd everyone who posted.

#29 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Hijacking the debate? Most of what you posted for Yusuke is pure assumption on if he can planet bust in comparison to Goku who goes by a legit mathematical scaling system and you haven`t proven why my feats are baseless, your more leaner to agree that Yusuke would stomp a Ghost Rider Zarathos but Dante and others would have trouble, Goku is light speed, can blow up a planet also he can fly as well, Yusuke has never tanked any energy blast that rivals Goku`s Spirit Bomb or Genkai Dama and even the Kamehameha. Did you know that the Spirit Bomb is a planet buster as confirmed by King Kai himself who instructed Goku on the technique, which is why Goku has to be careful while in harnessing and focusing the energy?

#30 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@cadencev2: Hijacking the debate? Most of what you posted for Yusuke is pure assumption on if he can planet bust in comparison to Goku who goes by a legit mathematical scaling system and you haven`t proven why my feats are baseless, your more leaner to agree that Yusuke would stomp a Ghost Rider Zarathos but Dante and others would have trouble, Goku is light speed, can blow up a planet and has is FTL also he can fly as well, Yusuke has never tanked any energy blast that rivals Goku`s Spirit Bomb or Genkai Dama or Kamehameha also did you know that the Spirit Bomb is a planet buster as confirmed by King Kai himself who instructed Goku on the technique, which is why Goku has to be careful while in harnessing and focusing the energy?

No presumption than your BS use of Power Level!

Example.

This is Trunks with a Higher Power level in this SS1 Almost SS2 form mix, but was SLOWER than SS1 Form!

Power level is such BS when measuring anything. No sir, we go by feats. Show me Goku Busting ANY planet!

Yusuke was not only stated but proven that only S Class Demons can battle in the Demon plane because the Earth Plane is too small for their Power level!

I showed feats that supported this as well. So it is in now way more presuming than half the crap I seen posted for Goku here.

Let the Feat speak for themselves!

#31 Edited by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku for me.

I like Yuyu Hakusho, especially the Sensui fight and 3 kings saga, but there is no proof that Yusuke could planet bust, even Raizen do not have this feat.

Fixed

#32 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas said:

Goku for me.

I like Yuyu Hakusho, especially the Sensui fight and 3 kings saga, but there is proof that Yusuke could planet bust, even Raizen do not have this feat.

So your saying there is proof Yuske can Planet Bust. Since we never seen Goku Planet Bust or hint to be able to without a Spirit Bomb gathering energy from a galaxy... that failed to kill Frieza I might add, as Frieza Saga SS1?

What are you saying?

#33 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Please stop debating after voting has been called. It defeats the point of 'calling for voting'. You agreed to stop and so did I. I won't persuade the people who vote for you, you shouldn't persuade the people who vote for me.

(btw your argument was answered in my post, if you read it you should know)

#34 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@cadencev2:

Please stop debating after voting has been called. It defeats the point of 'calling for voting'. You agreed to stop and so did I. I won't persuade the people who vote for you, you shouldn't persuade the people who vote for me.

I agree, I just do not understand what he said. He says...

but there is proof that Yusuke could planet bust

Which means he believes Yuske can Planet Bust. Then says...

even Raizen do not have this feat.

Which means... he cannot? I am legit confuse and not debating to change his mind. I like him to clarify what he meant.

#35 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Oh, okay.

*re-reads*

...waaaaaaaaat...

o_O

Typo, maybe? I don't have any problem with Yusuke and Goku both being planet-busters.

#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Oh, okay.

*re-reads*

...waaaaaaaaat...

o_O

Typo, maybe? I don't have any problem with Yusuke and Goku both being planet-busters.

I just want to know which is a typo. I am about to PM him.

#37 Posted by SMXLR8 (1392 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@neongamewave said:

@cadencev2: Hijacking the debate? Most of what you posted for Yusuke is pure assumption on if he can planet bust in comparison to Goku who goes by a legit mathematical scaling system and you haven`t proven why my feats are baseless, your more leaner to agree that Yusuke would stomp a Ghost Rider Zarathos but Dante and others would have trouble, Goku is light speed, can blow up a planet and has is FTL also he can fly as well, Yusuke has never tanked any energy blast that rivals Goku`s Spirit Bomb or Genkai Dama or Kamehameha also did you know that the Spirit Bomb is a planet buster as confirmed by King Kai himself who instructed Goku on the technique, which is why Goku has to be careful while in harnessing and focusing the energy?

No presumption than your BS use of Power Level!

Example.

Tis is Trunks with a Higher Power level but was SLOWER than SS1 Form!

Power level is such BS when measuring anything. No sir, we go by feats. Show me Goku Busting ANY planet!

Yusuke was not only stated but proven that only S Class Demons can battle in the Demon plane because the Earth Plane is too small for their Power level!

I showed feats that supported this as well. So it is in now way more presuming than half the crap I seen posted for Goku here.

Let the Feat speak for themselves!

Many use that as an excuse when the reason why Trunks was slow was because of the ki he was exerting in comparison to others, for example Vegeta and Gohan isn`t slow.

We go by feats and common sense, feats themselves lead to ABC logic in many cases, also Vegeta was about to bust the planet its further evidenced with Ki Sense which all DBZ characters have and Goku as the rest could sense the energy that he was resonating, Goku`s Kamehameha was powerful enough to overpower Vegeta`s Galick Gun the same attack he threatened the planet with.

Ki sensing is the ability to sense the location, life force, and power level of anyone; the stronger and closer the enemy, the more powerful the sensation. Also, if one has higher energy, he can sense strong people from afar.

Where`s the proof or feat of him planet busting? See how the logic and hypocritical question can be put into reverse, Goku and the rest actually have something to go by even if Goku couldn`t planet bust he still is too much for Yusuke.

There are a lot of sources and evidences placed on Goku`s behalf its just Yu Yu Hakusho bias that refuses to accept it within and during the earlier DBZ threads you were different you were more open but as soon as Yu Yu Hakusho became more present in your arguments you seemed to have swayed away what`s with this change?

Feats are nothing without logic and evidence which Goku has

#39 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8:

I can't.

Imma Super Saiyan.

:VVV

@neongamewave:

stahp

not your cav mate

but thank you for voting goku

2-0 goku

#40 Edited by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (9819 posts) - - Show Bio

Might give this a read later, should be good o .o

Too long for me to want to read right now

#41 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Your right, my apologies just wanted to correct his accusations and biases, they concern me. And no problem as confirmed my vote goes to you as well as your character of debate Goku, good job on the debate.

#43 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: What change was the flood of research and facts I seen from both sides of the tables. I been reading many superman vs Goku, Yusuke vs Goku, and Thor vs Goku threads to see that there is many valid points why Goku feats are dismissed or easily explained away.

Do I belive SS3 Goku could beat Superman? Yes I do. However SS3 Goku from Buu Saga is leagues above SS1 Goku from Frieza Saga. SS1 Buu Saga is also <<<< SS1 Goku from Frieza Saga.

Problem with DBZ is the lack of feats of power. Battle of the Gods for example. the most powerful Goku form SSJG! Yet his battle was not anymore destructive or impressive as his battle with Cell! Which is to say Severely Planet Busting lacking in feats of any kind.

DBZ is very very inconsistent.

#44 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

that's because battle of the gods was terribad.

one does not simply introduce a villain who can casually blow up the galaxy and not defeat him EVEN AFTER INTRODUCING THE LONG AWAITED NON-GT SUPER SAIYAN AFTER SS3.

#45 Edited by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas said:

Goku for me.

I like Yuyu Hakusho, especially the Sensui fight and 3 kings saga, but there is no proof that Yusuke could planet bust, even Raizen do not have this feat.

So your saying there is proof Yuske can Planet Bust. Since we never seen Goku Planet Bust or hint to be able to without a Spirit Bomb gathering energy from a galaxy... that failed to kill Frieza I might add, as Frieza Saga SS1?

What are you saying?

I have typed too fast. Sorry for the confusion.

I remember his conversation with Master Genkai saying "If you want to destroy the world, come to me first" might mean plunge it to chaos resulting to the end of mankind not literally the earth.

IIRC the whole theme of Yuyu Hakusho is the preservation of mankind in the hands of Makai monsters.

#46 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas:

...huh

(makes no sense since i don't watch yu yu hakusho)

well okay.

#47 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@neongamewave: What change was the flood of research and facts I seen from both sides of the tables. I been reading many superman vs Goku, Yusuke vs Goku, and Thor vs Goku threads to see that there is many valid points why Goku feats are dismissed or easily explained away.

Do I belive SS3 Goku could beat Superman? Yes I do. However SS3 Goku from Buu Saga is leagues above SS1 Goku from Frieza Saga. SS1 Buu Saga is also <<<< SS1 Goku from Frieza Saga.

Problem with DBZ is the lack of feats of power. Battle of the Gods for example. the most powerful Goku form SSJG! Yet his battle was not anymore destructive or impressive as his battle with Cell! Which is to say Severely Planet Busting lacking in feats of any kind.

DBZ is very very inconsistent.

What are you trying to prove exactly? I have done the same and much more, having analyzed the debates fairly from both sides also having seen your attitude as well as stance on the Yu Yu Hakusho threads as well, I know both series and characters extremely well if you are to question my knowledge on either DBZ or Yu Yu Hakusho, I believe Yu Yu Hakusho has the better story but not more powerful characters it can be debated on if Bleach characters can take on Yu Yu Hakusho characters although Bleach is accused of being a reflective rip off of Yu Yu Hakusho which I myself can understand.

Now that`s a different argument for another day it has no bearing here or on the discussion at hand and I too also agree that Goku would beat Superman within his SSJ3 form but I also know that Yusuke even in his Mazoku form stands no chance against a SSJ1 Goku and SSJ1 Goku from Buu Saga is>>>>SSJ1 Goku from Frieza Saga considering the amount of experience he attains while learning to control his Ki levels and power. Goku also gains more knowledge in battle as well. It was you who also created the useful Debunk A Feat DBZ Manga/Anime thread if I`m not mistaken which I certainly am not. Although you do rather go by feats rather than powerscaling which is interconnected with the feats themselves in regards to the fundamental of Ki energy the thread itself still sparked interest in proving why powerscaling can be used and factored in when in the debating of DBZ characters.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/debunk-a-feat-dbz-mangaanime-730592/

Its not the lack of feats its more so the quantification also SSJG Goku and Battle of Gods is not a good example due to the fact that of Goku`s more so impressive feats confirmed and displayed throughout the movie a good deal of their fight took place in space comparing the collateral damage to that of an earlier fight with Cell doesn`t further your evidence or debunk mine considering what I mentioned earlier about Goku`s new attained feats. He was sable to bust a hole in King Kai`s planet which has 10x the gravity of earth and is a small condensed object meaning it would be immensely durable from the inside-out also Goku is able to absorb Bills` attack which was about to destroy the earth and collateral damage doesn`t mean much because most times the DBZ characters focus their attacks which is why much damage isn`t done, Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon is known for destroying the moon yet it only makes a small crater or less when fired at Raditz, why is that? Because its called Ki Control and Ki Size which Akira Toriyama himself confirmed as well as mentioned within Kanzenshuu, Mortein even created a thread based on this misconception.

Akira Toriyama:" When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/4055-46445/forums/destructive-power-of-dbz-characters-679193/

In ways it does when in dealing with the elementals of quantification but comics are no better which is why I question your concern when it comes to feats luckily it doesn`t suffer from what comics suffer from so it shouldn`t be DBZ`s inconsistency that is a concern but how inconsistent it is when dealing with quantification a character like Superman suffers from a lot of these issues. The thing with DBZ is that theoretical and commonsensical thinking can be factored in with the feats making it more evident and adding more meat to the bone it actually makes you think more when you think about it, mangas aren`t usually designed to go by a description and linear demonstration of feats anyways as comics do as they have a narrator clarifying the panels while mangas have their feats more so elaborated in the guidebooks and handbooks but a benefit a manga has, is having one author and sole creator instead of 10 or 20 having to change what the other laid down as foundation.

#48 Posted by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas:

...huh

(makes no sense since i don't watch yu yu hakusho)

well okay.

One question, why did you think Goku could win without knowing the character you're up against?

You have guts bro.

#49 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@overlordarhas said:

Goku for me.

I like Yuyu Hakusho, especially the Sensui fight and 3 kings saga, but there is no proof that Yusuke could planet bust, even Raizen do not have this feat.

So your saying there is proof Yuske can Planet Bust. Since we never seen Goku Planet Bust or hint to be able to without a Spirit Bomb gathering energy from a galaxy... that failed to kill Frieza I might add, as Frieza Saga SS1?

What are you saying?

I have typed too fast. Sorry for the confusion.

I remember his conversation with Master Genkai saying "If you want to destroy the world, come to me first" might mean plunge it to chaos resulting to the end of mankind not literally the earth.

IIRC the whole theme of Yuyu Hakusho is the preservation of mankind in the hands of Makai monsters.

Yes, also it was stated 5 different times that the reason S Classes were kept from entering Earth is because they can Destroy the World. It is also further explain the Demon Plane is so much more vast to the human one so S Classes can exist.

Future reference.

Thanks for clearing that up.

#50 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas:

Because in the challenge a viner thread when I was like 'i want to debate' Cadence posted scans from Death Battle.

And typically people who refer to Death Battle when debating about Goku have no idea what they're talking about (as evident here)

So assuming he was going by Death Battle's depiction of Goku, I was relatively sure Goku would win (and he does stomp)