Goku vs Superman Has Changed - Battles

#1 Edited by AHULL62781 (12 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

At kanzenshuu, old Japanese guidebooks were translated and it mentions that cell can destroy a solar system. At first I was mad that screw attack didn't use it, but found out the translation was in progress while the death battle was as well.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

There was a discussion about what Super Saiyan 2 was called BEFORE the author thought up Super Saiyan 3, so old guides were brought into the discussion.

Page 147

Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

Super Saiyan 2 used to be called Super Saiyan Grade V and it says Brolly has a different super saiyan form than all the others that's special to him.

A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!!

Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others!

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? IT MEANS THAT SCREW ATTACK MISSED SOMETHING BIG!

Cell can destroy a solar system according to the people who worked with Toriyama and Toriyama himself. It’s not my opinion, the author and his staff said so. An injured super saiyan two with one arm can overpower Cell. Gohan only held back because he was afraid the earth would blow up as a side effect of him using too much energy.

This means, with one hand, a super saiyan two can kill Cell.That makes a super saiyan two at least twice as strong as Cell. So that’s two supernovas of energy. Super Saiyan 3 increases that by 4 times to eight supernovas. And Super Saiyan 4 increases that by 10 times to 80 supernovas.

One last thing I want to state is that Goku used teleportion under stress in the manga several times and failed while under stress only ONCE when Kid Buu blew up the earth. Goku can keep up with Superman by teleporting to his location each time. Screw attack messed up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE7IgfU-5Nw

Also it's been revealed that the Dragon Ball gods do in fact create life, planets, and stars by providing the impetus for them. Please discuss in an intelligent manner.

#2 Posted by Lvenger (8228 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@AHULL62781: It's ironic you say discuss in an intelligent manner when the points you make aren't made in a coherent manner. Anyway Superman still beats Goku for now until this possible Super Saiyan God form comes. The Instant Transmission is never used in a combat sense anyway. Granted Goku could teleport away from Superman's hits and perhaps use an Instant Kamehameha but that wouldn't change much. And for that other point see my post below. All the other things are speculation and heresay otherwise.

Superman still wins this fight IMO. Better striking feats, more durable, can keep up with Goku's combat speed and can fight for longer due to better stamina thanks to yellow solar radiation reserves. Goku has shown he can't keep fighting at his peak for more than a day whereas Superman has kept a 3 day solar reserve charge during which he kept the Earth warm with a massive heat vision blast and had solar reserves to spare

@Lvenger said:

With the Superman vs Goku Death Battle and comic vs anime battles allowed on the battle forums once again, I’ve seen a rise in the number of DBZ fanboys using poor logic and misinterpreted evidence to present a false case of why DBZ characters are godlike planet busters or even galaxy busters. There are countless examples to talk about but I will only be addressing 2 of them in my posts.
1. Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Cell (insert DBZ character name) are planet/solar system busters
A commonly argued point is that most DBZ characters are capable of destroying planets with their energy blasts. This is a false claim that I will address. There is little evidence to show most DBZ characters are actual planet busters. To my knowledge, only 3 fit the bill:
1. Frieza in his final form threw a Death Ball at Namek’s core. Although this didn’t blow the planet up straight away, it caused a chain reaction in the core which blew the planet up in ‘5 minutes.’ Although it’s not straight away planet busting it’s as close as you can get.
2. Broly threw a Ki blast at a planet and destroyed it. This is a non canon example though as it is not clear where most of the DBZ movies fit into the actual anime/manga timeline but it’s one of the few actual planet busting examples in DBZ.
3. Kid Buu destroyed Earth during the Majiin Buu Saga with a large energy ball attack.
Only these 3 characters showed planet busting energy attacks. No one else in DBZ has shown that. So why is it claimed that they do? Simple; it’s based on statements made by characters in the show. I’ll take you through 3 examples of such claims.
Example 1: Vegeta remarks that he’ll blow up the Earth once Goku manages to get the upper hand with a Kaio Ken x3 attack. He then charges a Galick Gun and fires it at Goku who counters with a Kaio Ken x3 then 4 Kamehameha. The problem here is that both these beams were supposedly ‘planet busting attacks’ yet the sheer conflict between these beams didn’t cause planetary level destruction, just destruction in the area the beam struggle took place. Yajirobe wasn’t even vaporised by two ‘planet destroying’ beams! Ergo neither beam was capable of destroying the planet. Here’s what I’m talking about:
Example 2: Goku charges a Super Kamehameha against Cell from a high vantage point. Cell then states that Goku wouldn’t dare fire the Kamehameha from there as it would destroy the Earth. Everyone starts to panic as Goku charges up the attack more. Then Goku uses instant transmission to teleport behind Cell and fires his Super Kamehameha at Cell. Here’s the thing, all it does is release a massive explosion of energy that destroys just the top half of Cell’s body and surrounds the Cell Games Arena with a blinding flash. That’s all. No planetary level of destruction, no beam of energy zooming into space like Vegeta’s Final Flash. Once again Goku’s energy projection capabilities have been overestimated. Watch for yourself and see if this doesn’t make sense
Example 3: Gohan and Cell’s Kamehameha battle. Whilst charging up his attack, Cell claims he’s gathered enough energy to blow up the entire solar system. Again here’s the proof for this. Skip to 5:39 and you’ll see what I mean:
With encouragement from Goku, Gohan charges up a Kamehameha to counter Cell. The beam struggle rages backwards and forwards until Cell is distracted by an attack by Vegeta. Gohan takes the opportunity to overpower Cell’s attack and put everything he’s got into it. His Kamehameha overpowers Cell’s beam and Cell is destroyed. However, this proves Cell’s statement was useless speculation. In order to overpower Cell’s Kamehameha, Gohan’s attack must have been stronger than a solar system busting attack right? Well that’s not the case. As with Goku’s Kamehameha, only a large scale of destruction is wrought over the area Gohan and Cell are battling in. The solar system is still intact after Gohan’s energy attack destroys Cell so it can be obviously seen that Cell was overestimating his abilities given the result of the battle. Heck Earth and every planet is still there afterwards so obviously neither attack was anywhere near planet busting, let alone solar system destroying! Once again there is little evidence to suggest most of the DBZ characters who say they can destroy planets have the feats to back it up. In order to support their claim, DBZ fans have to use speculation and ABC logic in the form of power levels to back up their claim. Unfortunately evidence and feats>ABC logic. Does anyone think I’m wrong here?
2. In the DC Universe, Goku’s Ki attacks would be considered magic. Therefore Goku’s energy attacks are more harmful to Superman
This is a particularly audacious claim. But it can be easily disproved. Ki that characters like Goku, Vegeta and the other Z fighters use is different from magic in that a magic wielder usually draws on some external source or surroundings in order to be used. On the other hand, Ki attacks come from the user’s inner energy. Evidence that supports this comes from characters like Babidi or Old Kai. Neither of these 2 could hope to match Goku, Piccolo, Gohan or Vegeta in a physical confrontation in terms of strength and energy projection yet possess other powers Goku hasn’t shown such as possession, power enhancement, teleportation and making objects materialise out of thin air. The first 3 belong to Babidi, the last one to the Kais. Furthermore it has never been stated that Ki attacks are magical in any way so that clears up any doubt over Goku’s Ki attacks being more damaging to Superman in the way magical attacks are. However, Goku’s Power Pole is a magically enhanced weapon that is extremely durable and can extend to any length. It has been stated this weapon is magical in nature and Superman is vulnerable to magically enhanced weapons. But Ki attacks are not magical at all. Again can anyone debunk this?

#3 Posted by Immortal777 (3257 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.

#4 Posted by BlackWind (2076 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Immortal777 said:

I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.

Exactly. Why are they so obsessed with this? Even if Goku defeats Supes in some forum battle, he'll never be half as iconic.

#5 Edited by XImpossibruX (3344 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Immortal777 said:

I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.

Trust me bro, If Superman lost it would be the same exact thing.

The best thing to do is grab your popcorn because with the new DBZ movie and Super Saiyan god the sh*tstorm has just begun.

@BlackWind said:

@Immortal777 said:
I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.
Exactly. Why are they so obsessed with this? Even if Goku defeats Supes in some forum battle, he'll never be half as iconic.

I don't think anyone is more iconic then Superman, he was the first Superhero and literally has Super is his name.

#6 Posted by AHULL62781 (12 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

You AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION, nor are you logical. Official Japanese guidebooks written by the author and his staff, prove Cell is a solar system buster! Screw Attack used information from this source, but it wasn't fully translated. We have more information now. THIS IS PROVEN. THIS IS PROVEN. Cell can destroy a solar system according to the people who worked with Toriyama and Toriyama himself. It’s not my opinion, the author and his staff said so. An injured super saiyan two with one arm can overpower Cell. Gohan only held back because he was afraid the earth would blow up as a side effect of him using too much energy.

#7 Posted by Laurcus (1289 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Lvenger The only thing in that post that I agree with is that ki is not magic. Anyone that claims it is is grasping at straws, and frankly, doesn't know the source material.

Now, I'll take a crack at debunking the rest of your post. My argument can be summed up with the following 2 words. Ki control.

DBZ characters can control what their energy does. The answer really is as simple as that. A bigger attack is not a more powerful attack, it's just bigger, and when destroying planets which are primarily composed of rock, the size of the blast is what's important, not the potency.

Note the following numbers are completely arbitrary. They mean nothing outside of this demonstration.

Think of it like a grid. The planet is represented by 100 squares on the grid. Each square takes 1 unit of energy to destroy. An energy wave fired by x character has a total of 100 units of energy in it. This can be spread between any number of squares from 1 to 100. If x character chooses to attack all 100 squares, the planet is destroyed. If he chooses to spread it between 25 squares, only 1 is destroyed. The beam still contains the same total amount of energy though. It is still a planetary level attack, even if it only destroys 1% of it. Let's say a solar system is 1 million squares, each taking 1 unit of energy to destroy. Cell saying that he had gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system means he has 1 million units of energy to spend. Cell then chose to expend all his energy on only a few squares, (Gohan and the surrounding area) resulting in a beam that does not destroy the planet. That doesn't make Cell wrong though, there was still enough total energy to destroy the solar system, it was just applied in a way that limited its collateral damage. What you're doing is looking at the collateral damage caused, and then saying that since it only destroyed 1 square, it was only 1 unit of energy.

Now I want to give some examples, and ask you a few questions. In Dragon Ball at the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament, Piccolo unleashes a massive energy blast that wipes out basically the whole island. In DBZ, SS3 Goku fires a kamehameha wave when he fights Fat Buu, this energy blast causes minimal damage. Do you believe Dragon Ball era Piccolo's blast was more powerful than SS3 Goku's? Do you believe that Dragon Ball era Piccolo has overall more potent energy attacks?

Another question. Let's assume that you're right, and only Frieza, Broly and Majin Buu can destroy planets, (Vegeta destroys Arlia in filler, but we'll just ignore that) why do you think that is? Is Frieza more powerful than Vegito or SS3 Goku? How about Broly? Is it perhaps only possible with a special technique, one that even Goku is unable to duplicate? What do you think gives Frieza, Broly and Buu the power to destroy planets?

#8 Posted by Juiceboks (640 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.

#9 Posted by AHULL62781 (12 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

At kanzenshuu, old Japanese guidebooks were translated and it mentions that cell can destroy a solar system. At first I was mad that screw attack didn't use it, but found out the translation was in progress while the death battle was as well.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

There was a discussion about what Super Saiyan 2 was called BEFORE the author thought up Super Saiyan 3, so old guides were brought into the discussion.

Page 147

Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

Super Saiyan 2 used to be called Super Saiyan Grade V and it says Brolly has a different super saiyan form than all the others that's special to him.

A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!!

Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others!

#10 Posted by UltimateHero0406 (1860 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

As I suspected, Bills has cursed us all with an ocean of new DBZ fights that will go nowhere. Curse you Funimation!!! We were almost free!

#11 Posted by BlackWind (2076 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

Another thing that's wrong with these threads is that hype, character statements, filler, GT, and movie feats get thrown around like they're canon.

#12 Edited by AHULL62781 (12 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Juiceboks said:

I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.

Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character! Screw attack cannot be trusted. I KNOW MUTIVERSAL CHARACTERS ONE SHOT DRAGON BALL Z CHARACTERS! I DON'T THINK THEY'RE INVINCIBLE, JUST STRONGER THAN OTHERS ARE WILLING TO ADMIT!

#13 Posted by UltimateHero0406 (1860 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@AHULL62781 said:

@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw Attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character!

#14 Posted by Walzo (4177 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

Okay.

While he may be able to destroy a solar system, he still can't touch Supes when it comes to speed.

#15 Posted by Dredeuced (2872 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

People have countered that post before, @Lvenger in the debunk feats thread before, it's pretty poor form to bring up a corrected statement you posted before.

#16 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (5983 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX: Long time no see, bro

#17 Edited by AHULL62781 (12 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@UltimateHero0406 said:

@AHULL62781 said:
@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw Attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character!

To be honest, the more powerful versions of Superman would beat Goku, but Goku needs to be respected.

A SSJ 2 can kill Cell with one hand! That's twice as strong. SSJ 3 is 4 times that and SSJ 4 is 10 times that.

Cell = supernova

SSJ 2 = 2 supernovas

SSJ 3 = 8 supernovas

SSJ 4 = 80 supernovas

KAMEHAMEHA is 1.5 times multiplier. So 120 supernovas. This is Goku's real limit.

#18 Posted by Alexman113 (485 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@AHULL62781 said:

Cell can destroy a solar system

The thing is, we don't really know what this means. Does it mean that if Cell fired his Kamehameha at the center of the solar system and it exploded that the blast would envelope the entire solar system, thus destroying it. Maybe, but again we dont know. It could also be saying that if he fired his kamehameha at one planet and all planets are lined up in their normal fashion, that he has enough energy to sustain a blast long enough to go through them all. One feat deals with raw destructive power and the other deals with a sustainability while both equate to a solar system being destroyed. It is just speculation what he meant.

#19 Posted by hunter5024 (118 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

I disagree with screw attack too, but as they said, they aren't measuring the characters' strength by who they've beaten, they're measuring them by their own personal accomplishments. I don't really see how something Gohan did against Cell is even relevant in a fight between Goku and Superman anyways.

#20 Posted by XImpossibruX (3344 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@XImpossibruX: Long time no see, bro

ELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#21 Edited by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@AHULL62781 said:

@UltimateHero0406 said:
@AHULL62781 said:
@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw Attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character!
To be honest, the more powerful versions of Superman would beat Goku, but Goku needs to be respected.
A SSJ 2 can kill Cell with one hand! That's twice as strong. SSJ 3 is 4 times that and SSJ 4 is 10 times that.
Cell = supernova
SSJ 2 = 2 supernovas
SSJ 3 = 8 supernovas
SSJ 4 = 80 supernovas
KAMEHAMEHA is 1.5 times multiplier. So 120 supernovas. This is Goku's real limit.

Goku isn't Gohan, so Cell being killed by Gohan using one-hand, doesn't relate to this at all.

In fact, I don't see how it's relevant at all, he fired a Kamehameha with one-hand, it probably would've had the same effect if he was able to use two.

And like always, character and even author statements mean very little when the character has no feats to support the statement. Sure, Akira Toriyama could have stated Cell was a solar system buster, does it matter? No, because he's done nothing to suggest he is.

Everyone still claims ScrewAttack was terrible, and didn't use this or that, and yet all of these people whining about it still haven't presented a better argument themselves. Accept the fact Superman has beaten Goku, and wait until the new DBZ movie comes out.

Edit: Just saw you added scans. No idea why you posted them. It's not like Goku could survive a planet/star exploding on top of him. Why pretend like he could? It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes people groan at these Goku vs Superman debates. People posting scans that don't even make sense when posted.

#22 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (5983 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX said:

@Ancient_0f_Days said:
@XImpossibruX: Long time no see, bro
ELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How was your vacation.

#23 Posted by Wardemon32 (768 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

This makes no sense to me and doesn't prove that he would beat Superman

Reasons why:

He blew up a planet, not a solar system. If it was a supernova and it was directed towards Earth(or whatever planet) it would cause the whole solar system to blow up.
None of them have been shown to blow up a while solar system. A Supernova is a supernova, no matter how weak it is, if it goes up it's blowing EVERYTHING up weather it was a "weak" one or not.
If Goku EVER let go a kameha like that nothing in their vicinity would exist which he's never done before.
Goku let go a kamehameha directly infront of Cell and all he did was break into peices. Tha should have blasted him away like any other punch would or atleast disenegrate.
What I said in the point on top of this would mean that their ki attacks just push you back instead of cutting off a peice of your body or something unlike Supermans. So that means that their blast and pretty much like Cyclops, not explosive but it moves you back.

#24 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (894 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Alexman113 said:

@AHULL62781 said:
Cell can destroy a solar system
The thing is, we don't really know what this means. Does it mean that if Cell fired his Kamehameha at the center of the solar system and it exploded that the blast would envelope the entire solar system, thus destroying it. Maybe, but again we dont know. It could also be saying that if he fired his kamehameha at one planet and all planets are lined up in their normal fashion, that he has enough energy to sustain a blast long enough to go through them all. One feat deals with raw destructive power and the other deals with a sustainability while both equate to a solar system being destroyed. It is just speculation what he meant.

what you're saying is too much of speculation. when you hear, an X person can destroy a solar system, what's the first idea that comes to your mind? that he needs to put planets and sun in line to do it???!! it makes no sense, that's not the solar system dude. the solar system is the solar system. circular or elliptic (not straight line) if it said he can destroy it, then he can, no need to awkward and fancy philosophies to understand that. it's a simple sentence with a simple meaning.

#25 Posted by 18hunt (2245 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

I just did some studying and bills is the new strongest on dbz... This is pre movie info (a lot of anime movies give pre info)

Online

#26 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (4574 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@BlackWind said:

@Immortal777 said:
I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.
Exactly. Why are they so obsessed with this? Even if Goku defeats Supes in some forum battle, he'll never be half as iconic.

Yeah, not like he's invincible. There's a boat load for people from manga and comics that can lol stomp him.. why people obsess with Goku vs superman is beyond me.

#27 Edited by MisterGuyMan (1747 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Juiceboks said:

I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.

Everyone has Ki but not everyone can use it. That's why even if a Farmer has even a paltry power level, he can't use it to scale with some one that is skilled in Ki manipulation.

@xeon1cs said:

Goku isn't Gohan, so Cell being killed by Gohan using one-hand, doesn't relate to this at all.
In fact, I don't see how it's relevant at all, he fired a Kamehameha with one-hand, it probably would've had the same effect if he was able to use two.
And like always, character and even author statements mean very little when the character has no feats to support the statement. Sure, Akira Toriyama could have stated Cell was a solar system buster, does it matter? No, because he's done nothing to suggest he is.
Everyone still claims ScrewAttack was terrible, and didn't use this or that, and yet all of these people whining about it still haven't presented a better argument themselves. Accept the fact Superman has beaten Goku, and wait until the new DBZ movie comes out.
Edit: Just saw you added scans. No idea why you posted them. It's not like Goku could survive a planet/star exploding on top of him. Why pretend like he could? It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes people groan at these Goku vs Superman debates. People posting scans that don't even make sense when posted.

Well in the manga Goku was measured to have 3,000 kili and 300 is enough to destroy a planet. Kili in DBverse is an actual measurement so having 3,000 kili is a feat. Screwattack screwed up when they missed that translation. It was out already when the video was released.

#28 Posted by terry2012 (4609 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX: All of it is so true.

#29 Posted by 18hunt (2245 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

In America he may not be as iconic but in Japan that is a different story, they put him on school ads with goten, commercials, posters and more

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#30 Posted by Dextersinister (2920 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

I've watched DB recently and I recall Goku being capable of destroying a planet at the end of the Freiza saga.

#31 Edited by Vaeternus (3999 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Immortal777 said:

I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.

I know right, I guess some DBZ fans just can't handle Supes beating Goku *shrugs* not saying the OP but DBZ nutty fans in general, but hey to be fair I've seen nutty Marvel fans and Batman fans too at times people that think Batman can beat anyone or Odin can beat anyone, just as ridiculous at times.

#32 Posted by NeonGameWave (5111 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

Goku would beat Superman and with his new SSJG form it is now more so evident. I find this new find to be interesting however I always believed Goku would beat Superman and Screw Attack`s video is wrong in some areas. Goku is the better fighter, he is more endurant, versatile, doesn`t hold back and has the range advantage.

#33 Posted by Immortal777 (3257 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@BlackWind said:
@Immortal777 said:
I don't understand why DBZ fans have this need for Goku to be able to beat Superman it just doesn't make sense.
Exactly. Why are they so obsessed with this? Even if Goku defeats Supes in some forum battle, he'll never be half as iconic.
Yeah, not like he's invincible. There's a boat load for people from manga and comics that can lol stomp him.. why people obsess with Goku vs superman is beyond me.

Yea thats right Goku isn't invincible thats obvious. There's a boat load of people from manga and comics that can lol stomp Superman and Goku why people obsess with Goku vs Superman is crazy.

#34 Posted by NeonGameWave (5111 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@AHULL62781 said:

@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character! Screw attack cannot be trusted. I KNOW MUTIVERSAL CHARACTERS ONE SHOT DRAGON BALL Z CHARACTERS! I DON'T THINK THEY'RE INVINCIBLE, JUST STRONGER THAN OTHERS ARE WILLING TO ADMIT!

Awesome points and I agree.

#35 Posted by name12345 (560 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

OMG... your post is so wrong... you know nothing about DBZ.

anyway this isn't even a fight, Goku stomps.

#36 Posted by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

Goku would beat Superman and with his new SSJG form it is now more so evident. I find this new find to be interesting however I always believed Goku would beat Superman and Screw Attack`s video is wrong in some areas. Goku is the better fighter, he is more endurant, versatile, doesn`t hold back and has the range advantage.

Wait...what? How does Goku have ANY of those things over Superman? Goku may not hold back most of the time, but he always lets his opponents reach their most powerful points, or even helps them get their so he can have a better fight. He's an idiot.

Also what evidence? We know absolutely nothing about SSJG, or the context it's used in.

#37 Posted by Dextersinister (2920 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@NeonGameWave said:
Goku would beat Superman and with his new SSJG form it is now more so evident. I find this new find to be interesting however I always believed Goku would beat Superman and Screw Attack`s video is wrong in some areas. Goku is the better fighter, he is more endurant, versatile, doesn`t hold back and has the range advantage.
Wait...what? How does Goku have ANY of those things over Superman? Goku may not hold back most of the time, but he always lets his opponents reach their most powerful points, or even helps them get their so he can have a better fight. He's an idiot.
Also what evidence? We know absolutely nothing about SSJG, or the context it's used in.

Goku hold's back nearly all the time, nearly everyone in the DB universe hold's back. I agree though, Goku risked the lives of everyone he knew when he allowed Frieza to power up and only survived because he got lucky with the super siayan transformation.

#38 Posted by BlackWind (2076 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

Goku more versatile? Gimme a break. Can Goku read an entire library and memorize every book in 20 seconds? Didn't think so.

#39 Posted by NeonGameWave (5111 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: Goku`s willpower is greater, he`s much more skilled in combat and his combat speed is a lot faster, he can react in combat better than Superman also many like to say Superman is invincible when that is not the case he has his limits as well.

Based on what was shown and said, I wouldn`t be surprised if SSJG alone just proves why Goku is superior. If it allowed him to take on Bills who is far above Buu, Frieza and Cell as he can use magic, is a reality warper and can destroy planets then I`m pretty sure he could defeat Superman although we have to wait until March 30th.

#40 Posted by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

@xeon1cs: Goku`s willpower is greater, he`s much more skilled in combat and his combat speed is a lot faster, he can react in combat better than Superman also many like to say Superman is invincible when that is not the case he has his limits as well.
Based on what was shown and said, I wouldn`t be surprised if SSJG alone just proves why Goku is superior. If it allowed him to take on Bills who is far above Buu, Frieza and Cell as he can use magic, is a reality warper and can destroy planets then I`m pretty sure he could defeat Superman although we have to wait until March 30th.

How is his willpower greater? How is he more skilled in combat? What proof do you have his combat speed is "a lot" faster? Or that his reaction speed is faster?

Stating things without evidence doesn't make them true.

#41 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

feats>claims

#42 Posted by Laurcus (1289 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@AHULL62781 said:
@UltimateHero0406 said:
@AHULL62781 said:
@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw Attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character!
To be honest, the more powerful versions of Superman would beat Goku, but Goku needs to be respected.
A SSJ 2 can kill Cell with one hand! That's twice as strong. SSJ 3 is 4 times that and SSJ 4 is 10 times that.
Cell = supernova
SSJ 2 = 2 supernovas
SSJ 3 = 8 supernovas
SSJ 4 = 80 supernovas
KAMEHAMEHA is 1.5 times multiplier. So 120 supernovas. This is Goku's real limit.
Goku isn't Gohan, so Cell being killed by Gohan using one-hand, doesn't relate to this at all.
In fact, I don't see how it's relevant at all, he fired a Kamehameha with one-hand, it probably would've had the same effect if he was able to use two.
And like always, character and even author statements mean very little when the character has no feats to support the statement. Sure, Akira Toriyama could have stated Cell was a solar system buster, does it matter? No, because he's done nothing to suggest he is.
Everyone still claims ScrewAttack was terrible, and didn't use this or that, and yet all of these people whining about it still haven't presented a better argument themselves. Accept the fact Superman has beaten Goku, and wait until the new DBZ movie comes out.
Edit: Just saw you added scans. No idea why you posted them. It's not like Goku could survive a planet/star exploding on top of him. Why pretend like he could? It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes people groan at these Goku vs Superman debates. People posting scans that don't even make sense when posted.

You do realize Frieza survives exactly that, right? After being cut in half, and blasted by Goku to the point that he thought Frieza was dead. Almost dead Frieza > planet explosion.

Real talk here, level with me 100%, do you really think SS3 Goku has lower durability than Frieza?

As for Screwattack. I've seen dozens of better arguments, on this site and others. They use so much speculation in their arguments. If a Comic Vine user used one tenth as much speculation as Screwattack they'd be drawn and quartered, banned, kicked in the teeth and just generally humiliated and laughed at by everyone that read their garbage post.

#43 Edited by NeonGameWave (5111 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: Goku keeps rising during a fight against his enemies, he always pushes himself and never gives up during a fight no matter how much punishment he endures through. He has trained far longer from the beginning of when he was a kid and has mastered varying styles of martial arts, also he is a lot faster when it comes to sheer combat speed, his reaction speed and reflexes are also a factor. His fights with Cell, Frieza and Kid Buu, and Meta Cooler prove it.

2:09 - 2:58

#44 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (11378 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

Luke Skywalker destroys both of these clowns.

#45 Posted by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

@xeon1cs said:
@AHULL62781 said:
@UltimateHero0406 said:
@AHULL62781 said:
@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw Attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character!
To be honest, the more powerful versions of Superman would beat Goku, but Goku needs to be respected.
A SSJ 2 can kill Cell with one hand! That's twice as strong. SSJ 3 is 4 times that and SSJ 4 is 10 times that.
Cell = supernova
SSJ 2 = 2 supernovas
SSJ 3 = 8 supernovas
SSJ 4 = 80 supernovas
KAMEHAMEHA is 1.5 times multiplier. So 120 supernovas. This is Goku's real limit.
Goku isn't Gohan, so Cell being killed by Gohan using one-hand, doesn't relate to this at all.
In fact, I don't see how it's relevant at all, he fired a Kamehameha with one-hand, it probably would've had the same effect if he was able to use two.
And like always, character and even author statements mean very little when the character has no feats to support the statement. Sure, Akira Toriyama could have stated Cell was a solar system buster, does it matter? No, because he's done nothing to suggest he is.
Everyone still claims ScrewAttack was terrible, and didn't use this or that, and yet all of these people whining about it still haven't presented a better argument themselves. Accept the fact Superman has beaten Goku, and wait until the new DBZ movie comes out.
Edit: Just saw you added scans. No idea why you posted them. It's not like Goku could survive a planet/star exploding on top of him. Why pretend like he could? It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes people groan at these Goku vs Superman debates. People posting scans that don't even make sense when posted.
You do realize Frieza survives exactly that, right? After being cut in half, and blasted by Goku to the point that he thought Frieza was dead. Almost dead Frieza > planet explosion.
Real talk here, level with me 100%, do you really think SS3 Goku has lower durability than Frieza?
As for Screwattack. I've seen dozens of better arguments, on this site and others. They use so much speculation in their arguments. If a Comic Vine user used one tenth as much speculation as Screwattack they'd be drawn and quartered, banned, kicked in the teeth and just generally humiliated and laughed at by everyone that read their garbage post.

So does Gohan at the end of DBZ have lower durability than Frieza?

#46 Posted by Laurcus (1289 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@Laurcus said:
@xeon1cs said:
@AHULL62781 said:
@UltimateHero0406 said:
@AHULL62781 said:
@Juiceboks said:
I love DBZ probably more than the majority of DC but in all honesty alotta things in the DBZuniverse just dont make sense or are inconsistent. Like for example how Master Roshi can destroy the moon with only a power level of 180. What does the power level measure? How much power that person can output? If Master Roshi can destroy the moon than the farmer that Raditz scanned with a PL of 1 should be able to destroy something that requires 1/180 of the power needed to destroy the moon like a mountain range. Makes very little sense when you think about it. Many things in DBZ are hyperboles and assumptions like the power of the Kai's and characters who say theyre capable of certain feats but have little to nothing back them up. Goku is powerful no doubt about it, but looking at Supes feats and what he's been shown capable of I just dont see how people can truly believe that he pales in comparison to Goku's power.
Screw Attack made up their own FAN CALCULATIONS. I'm using GUIDEBOOKS written by the author and his staff. Screw Attack had Vegeta beating Shadow! That's impossible! Shadow, Sonic, and Silver fought a multiversal being in Sonic 2006 and beat it. Super Shadow should one shot ANY Dragon Ball Z character!
To be honest, the more powerful versions of Superman would beat Goku, but Goku needs to be respected.
A SSJ 2 can kill Cell with one hand! That's twice as strong. SSJ 3 is 4 times that and SSJ 4 is 10 times that.
Cell = supernova
SSJ 2 = 2 supernovas
SSJ 3 = 8 supernovas
SSJ 4 = 80 supernovas
KAMEHAMEHA is 1.5 times multiplier. So 120 supernovas. This is Goku's real limit.
Goku isn't Gohan, so Cell being killed by Gohan using one-hand, doesn't relate to this at all.
In fact, I don't see how it's relevant at all, he fired a Kamehameha with one-hand, it probably would've had the same effect if he was able to use two.
And like always, character and even author statements mean very little when the character has no feats to support the statement. Sure, Akira Toriyama could have stated Cell was a solar system buster, does it matter? No, because he's done nothing to suggest he is.
Everyone still claims ScrewAttack was terrible, and didn't use this or that, and yet all of these people whining about it still haven't presented a better argument themselves. Accept the fact Superman has beaten Goku, and wait until the new DBZ movie comes out.
Edit: Just saw you added scans. No idea why you posted them. It's not like Goku could survive a planet/star exploding on top of him. Why pretend like he could? It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes people groan at these Goku vs Superman debates. People posting scans that don't even make sense when posted.
You do realize Frieza survives exactly that, right? After being cut in half, and blasted by Goku to the point that he thought Frieza was dead. Almost dead Frieza > planet explosion.
Real talk here, level with me 100%, do you really think SS3 Goku has lower durability than Frieza?
As for Screwattack. I've seen dozens of better arguments, on this site and others. They use so much speculation in their arguments. If a Comic Vine user used one tenth as much speculation as Screwattack they'd be drawn and quartered, banned, kicked in the teeth and just generally humiliated and laughed at by everyone that read their garbage post.
So does Gohan at the end of DBZ have lower durability than Frieza?

You answered my question with another question...

And I already know where you're going with this. You're saying that Gohan died when Kid Buu blew up the Earth, therefore planet explosion > Gohan, right?

Well, that's a very flawed way to look at things, and here's why. Namek's explosion was just Namek blowing up. Frieza destroyed the core, that caused the planet to blow up. Buu blew up the Earth with a giant energy ball, and the blast very clearly hit Gohan. Gohan took the force of Buu's blast and the planet blowing up. And we cannot assume that just because Buu's blast blew up a planet that the blast's output was perfectly equal to the amount of force required to do so.

The truth is, we don't know how much total energy was in Buu's blast.

Now since I've indulged you by answering your question, I would appreciate it if you'd answer mine. So does Gohan at the end of DBZ have lower durability than Frieza?

#47 Posted by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Laurcus: What about people who didn't have the blast dropped on them? What about Tien? His powerlevel was what...around 100,000,000 at the time? He couldn't survive it, yet a dying Frieza, who Goku gave a little energy to was able to?

#48 Edited by Parallax_Hal_Jordan (261 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

So does Gohan at the end of DBZ have lower durability than Frieza?

I just want to clarify this.Gohan was unconscious,and when they're unconscious their PL drop drastically ,that's why they loose their Ssj state,or how Vegeta was able to kill Reecome and Burter (both stronger than him in that moment of the manga).Since their "stats" (strength,durability,speed,etc) are bound to their PL,that's why the explosion was able to kill Gohan,Goten,Trunks and Piccolo.Less PL mean less "stats",another example of this is Krillin being able to hurt Vegeta (who lower his PL)

#49 Edited by Laurcus (1289 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@Laurcus: What about people who didn't have the blast dropped on them? What about Tien? His powerlevel was what...around 100,000,000 at the time? He couldn't survive it, yet a dying Frieza, who Goku gave a little energy to was able to?

I'd have to watch the scene again, but it looked to me like Buu's blast consumed the whole planet. So I would guess that it hit Tien as well. We also don't really know what Tien's power level was, but that's beside the point.

You still didn't answer my question.

Edit: Just watched it again. Freeze frame at 4:46, Buu's blast clearly destroys the entire planet. Buu didn't cause a planetary explosion by damaging the planet like Frieza did, his blast was the explosion.

#50 Edited by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 2 months, 26 days ago - Show Bio

@Laurcus: The question of whether Frieza has greater durability than SSJ3? No, he doesn't. But that's still not the point, it could have been Frieza's physiology that allowed him to live, it could have been sheer luck. Tien isn't exactly a top-tier character in DBZ, but I'd like to think a cut in half, dying Frieza isn't more powerful than him, 3 sagas later.

As far as I know, the blast didn't consume the entire planet, it had the same Death Ball effect, minus the planet splitting apart, and rather just blew up.

Edit: You'd see the same thing from a nuclear explosion. Still doesn't change the fact it looks like it cratered into the Earth, then the planet just exploded, rather than his blast consuming the entire planet.