God Castiel takes on this team

I'm pretty sure the Leviathan didn't actually add to Castiel's power level as they aren't actual souls.

Just want to clarify since I just saw two posts implying that he can use them.

But anyways, I still hold that Castiel's mind is his weakness here. I don't know enough about any of the characters to know if they have the means to take advantage.

@LordFalcon said:

Illyria is just an enormous gargantuan tentacled monster. People might be shocked at what they see looking at Illyria, for the same reasons you and I witnessing a horrific car crash. But she aint Chtullu. Normal humans perceiving her would be fine. She reverted to her Old One form in the comics, normal humans had no problem perceiving her true form. Cas is a pure energy celestial entity that is so bright, virtually all humans and demons would have thier eyes burned out because they couldn't comprehend his essence. His radiance is overwhelming to most mere mortals and demons. And I doubt any of them can take away Cas's souls and leviathans against his will using some make shift spell. God Cas effortlessly broke the spell that binded Death himself. You know, the spell that not even Death can't override. And Cas nullified it. Dean, Sam, and Bobby were counting, actually hoping, Cas would show up because of Sam's desperate pleas. He has a family-like connection with them. That's not going to happen with this team that I set up against him. God Cas, for all his hubris and arrogance, gives two shits about Dark Willow and the rest. He's going for the kill. Neither side is given prep.

Her essence was too powerful for a human to hold which is why the shell was breaking and would have caused an explosion that would have caused the continents to shift is what I am getting at. In this scenario they don't need him to show up anywhere, if by chance they figure his weakness out they can just open the portal to purgatory from where they are is what I am saying, they have more than enough magic to make that possible along with a demon that can travel and open portals to any dimension she wants. I'm aware that he broke the binding that Death could not break, but it would be a pretty dumb binding of Death spell if he could just break it himself. I am not under the impression they will beat him outright, but under the right circumstances they can take him down. I don't know what you mean when you say uber Cole, but IMO that would be reality warping Avatar Cole, not powers from the wasteland Cole.

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

@The Stegman said:

Castiel literally makes the entire team cease to exist

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

I don't really think Cas has any showings to suppoert equalitybto Lucifer, much less superiority.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

You're right Cas's true form can only blind most humans and demons in their human vessels. And also his voice can cause earthquakes and tremers. But there is no evidence that a demon's true form can't stand an Angel's true form. I don't think any angel can go to hell willfully anytime they want to. As far as Lucifer creating Lilith, well he most likely used illusions and reality warping to torture her and turn her into a demon. Like the way he posed as Nick's wife to convince Nick to be his vessel. Lucifer was non-corporeal when he did that. When Sam was locked in the cage with Lucifer, he used illusions and reality warping to torture Sam. that's how demons are made. If Sam would have been there any longer, he would have been a demon. Cas was brought back to life soon after Sam and Adam jumped in the cage. He had a power increase. I think the cage was weakened ever since the seals were broken. Since then only a very powerful demon or angel can now just go in. we can only speculate exactly what Lovecraft has done. But what we do know is that he performed a ritual of some sort. We don't know what it is. To give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a very good chance that Ilyria can open the portal to Purgatory. Well you're right about Illyria blowing up had the power to destroy a continent, but God Cas blowing up had the power to destroy the entire earth in immolation according to Death himself.

But they did willingly go to hell to get Dean out so there goes that.

Lilith would have been a soul when he turned her, Nick was human so the need for illusions was prevalent, there is nothing to suggest such things even work on souls.

Sam was in that cage with him and there was never anything in the show that says his torture was an illusion especially demons like Alistair use the same technique on souls in hell and what Dean went through was very real, Sam suffered from hallucinations after and it turns out that is all they were and Lucifer was not really there talking to him. Saying he had a power increase is speculation, he was virtually powerless before his death, when he was brought back he was simply returned the way he was supposed to be with his connection to Heaven intact, he showed nothing to suggest his power was any greater than what it was before. More speculation, the cage was not weakened it was just opened and closed back up or they would not have needed the rings to reopen it, if it was weak then it should not be able to hold two of the most powerful angels let alone one. We know he didn't have the blood of a native, he only wanted to know what was on the other side if he had access to a native they could have told him, so we know he used a different method to open it up, which negates your statement about there only being one specific way as there were three ways in the show, and I bet Death can probably just walking in and out without spells the way he seems to be able to go anywhere he pleases. True about the fate of the Earth if he exploded, but Illyrias power was allowing her to destroy time itself as I said that is well beyond planetary destruction and ventures into the universal side of things.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

You're right Cas's true form can only blind most humans and demons in their human vessels. And also his voice can cause earthquakes and tremers. But there is no evidence that a demon's true form can't stand an Angel's true form. I don't think any angel can go to hell willfully anytime they want to. As far as Lucifer creating Lilith, well he most likely used illusions and reality warping to torture her and turn her into a demon. Like the way he posed as Nick's wife to convince Nick to be his vessel. Lucifer was non-corporeal when he did that. When Sam was locked in the cage with Lucifer, he used illusions and reality warping to torture Sam. that's how demons are made. If Sam would have been there any longer, he would have been a demon. Cas was brought back to life soon after Sam and Adam jumped in the cage. He had a power increase. I think the cage was weakened ever since the seals were broken. Since then only a very powerful demon or angel can now just go in. we can only speculate exactly what Lovecraft has done. But what we do know is that he performed a ritual of some sort. We don't know what it is. To give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a very good chance that Ilyria can open the portal to Purgatory. Well you're right about Illyria blowing up had the power to destroy a continent, but God Cas blowing up had the power to destroy the entire earth in immolation according to Death himself.

But they did willingly go to hell to get Dean out so there goes that.

Lilith would have been a soul when he turned her, Nick was human so the need for illusions was prevalent, there is nothing to suggest such things even work on souls.

Sam was in that cage with him and there was never anything in the show that says his torture was an illusion especially demons like Alistair use the same technique on souls in hell and what Dean went through was very real, Sam suffered from hallucinations after and it turns out that is all they were and Lucifer was not really there talking to him. Saying he had a power increase is speculation, he was virtually powerless before his death, when he was brought back he was simply returned the way he was supposed to be with his connection to Heaven intact, he showed nothing to suggest his power was any greater than what it was before. More speculation, the cage was not weakened it was just opened and closed back up or they would not have needed the rings to reopen it, if it was weak then it should not be able to hold two of the most powerful angels let alone one. We know he didn't have the blood of a native, he only wanted to know what was on the other side if he had access to a native they could have told him, so we know he used a different method to open it up, which negates your statement about there only being one specific way as there were three ways in the show, and I bet Death can probably just walking in and out without spells the way he seems to be able to go anywhere he pleases. True about the fate of the Earth if he exploded, but Illyrias power was allowing her to destroy time itself as I said that is well beyond planetary destruction and ventures into the universal side of things.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

You're right Cas's true form can only blind most humans and demons in their human vessels. And also his voice can cause earthquakes and tremers. But there is no evidence that a demon's true form can't stand an Angel's true form. I don't think any angel can go to hell willfully anytime they want to. As far as Lucifer creating Lilith, well he most likely used illusions and reality warping to torture her and turn her into a demon. Like the way he posed as Nick's wife to convince Nick to be his vessel. Lucifer was non-corporeal when he did that. When Sam was locked in the cage with Lucifer, he used illusions and reality warping to torture Sam. that's how demons are made. If Sam would have been there any longer, he would have been a demon. Cas was brought back to life soon after Sam and Adam jumped in the cage. He had a power increase. I think the cage was weakened ever since the seals were broken. Since then only a very powerful demon or angel can now just go in. we can only speculate exactly what Lovecraft has done. But what we do know is that he performed a ritual of some sort. We don't know what it is. To give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a very good chance that Ilyria can open the portal to Purgatory. Well you're right about Illyria blowing up had the power to destroy a continent, but God Cas blowing up had the power to destroy the entire earth in immolation according to Death himself.

But they did willingly go to hell to get Dean out so there goes that.

Lilith would have been a soul when he turned her, Nick was human so the need for illusions was prevalent, there is nothing to suggest such things even work on souls.

Sam was in that cage with him and there was never anything in the show that says his torture was an illusion especially demons like Alistair use the same technique on souls in hell and what Dean went through was very real, Sam suffered from hallucinations after and it turns out that is all they were and Lucifer was not really there talking to him. Saying he had a power increase is speculation, he was virtually powerless before his death, when he was brought back he was simply returned the way he was supposed to be with his connection to Heaven intact, he showed nothing to suggest his power was any greater than what it was before. More speculation, the cage was not weakened it was just opened and closed back up or they would not have needed the rings to reopen it, if it was weak then it should not be able to hold two of the most powerful angels let alone one. We know he didn't have the blood of a native, he only wanted to know what was on the other side if he had access to a native they could have told him, so we know he used a different method to open it up, which negates your statement about there only being one specific way as there were three ways in the show, and I bet Death can probably just walking in and out without spells the way he seems to be able to go anywhere he pleases. True about the fate of the Earth if he exploded, but Illyrias power was allowing her to destroy time itself as I said that is well beyond planetary destruction and ventures into the universal side of things.

souls should have no problem at all being next to an angels true form. I thought you said Lilith as a human was turned to a demon. I misread that. But still it's no big deal since it's just a soul and not a living person. Sam was Lucifer's true vessel, so he should be immune to Lucifer true form. And that's if Lucifer showed up as such. And manipulating time isn't destructive firepower. They're not the same thing. Illyria didn't use raw energy to destroy the universe. She was messing with time. Do you have the scans? I would like to see this.

That's why Cas thought Dean (being Michaels true vessel) could withstand the true form of an angel but that was not the case. The only human in the show that talked directly to an angel was Jimmy when Cas was preparing him, I don't think being a vessel has anything to do with it, and considering how devout Jimmy was it may have more to do with that. Firepower or manipulation is not an issue if the result is destructive then it counts as an act of destruction, the point is her power was enough to threaten it, the power in Cas was really nothing more than a bunch of souls, and souls were compared to being small nuclear reactors, the scope of his power didn't seem to go beyond affected the world, Illyria reached out farther when she attempted to directly attack a concept.

I don't really want to make this an Illyria vs Cas thing, she is only one of a group and IMO she can cause problems, Cole and Wyatt can warp reality, Glory may offer a great distraction because if I'm not mistaken she can only be killed if she is in Ben form which is why she was cursed into to take on a human form anyway, Ben was human and would eventually die and that would mean no more Glorificus for her co-rulers to worry about. Jasmine is also powerful, and as mentioned his human vessel can be affected by powerful being like Famine, Jasmine may have a chance against him, especially with the warring forces inside of him, is there anything stopping Willow from attempting to drain some of that power off, Dark Willow is reckless and loves to drain people. Don't get me wrong he can certainly win, but I think if they play right so can the team.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

You're right Cas's true form can only blind most humans and demons in their human vessels. And also his voice can cause earthquakes and tremers. But there is no evidence that a demon's true form can't stand an Angel's true form. I don't think any angel can go to hell willfully anytime they want to. As far as Lucifer creating Lilith, well he most likely used illusions and reality warping to torture her and turn her into a demon. Like the way he posed as Nick's wife to convince Nick to be his vessel. Lucifer was non-corporeal when he did that. When Sam was locked in the cage with Lucifer, he used illusions and reality warping to torture Sam. that's how demons are made. If Sam would have been there any longer, he would have been a demon. Cas was brought back to life soon after Sam and Adam jumped in the cage. He had a power increase. I think the cage was weakened ever since the seals were broken. Since then only a very powerful demon or angel can now just go in. we can only speculate exactly what Lovecraft has done. But what we do know is that he performed a ritual of some sort. We don't know what it is. To give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a very good chance that Ilyria can open the portal to Purgatory. Well you're right about Illyria blowing up had the power to destroy a continent, but God Cas blowing up had the power to destroy the entire earth in immolation according to Death himself.

But they did willingly go to hell to get Dean out so there goes that.

Lilith would have been a soul when he turned her, Nick was human so the need for illusions was prevalent, there is nothing to suggest such things even work on souls.

Sam was in that cage with him and there was never anything in the show that says his torture was an illusion especially demons like Alistair use the same technique on souls in hell and what Dean went through was very real, Sam suffered from hallucinations after and it turns out that is all they were and Lucifer was not really there talking to him. Saying he had a power increase is speculation, he was virtually powerless before his death, when he was brought back he was simply returned the way he was supposed to be with his connection to Heaven intact, he showed nothing to suggest his power was any greater than what it was before. More speculation, the cage was not weakened it was just opened and closed back up or they would not have needed the rings to reopen it, if it was weak then it should not be able to hold two of the most powerful angels let alone one. We know he didn't have the blood of a native, he only wanted to know what was on the other side if he had access to a native they could have told him, so we know he used a different method to open it up, which negates your statement about there only being one specific way as there were three ways in the show, and I bet Death can probably just walking in and out without spells the way he seems to be able to go anywhere he pleases. True about the fate of the Earth if he exploded, but Illyrias power was allowing her to destroy time itself as I said that is well beyond planetary destruction and ventures into the universal side of things.

souls should have no problem at all being next to an angels true form. I thought you said Lilith as a human was turned to a demon. I misread that. But still it's no big deal since it's just a soul and not a living person. Sam was Lucifer's true vessel, so he should be immune to Lucifer true form. And that's if Lucifer showed up as such. And manipulating time isn't destructive firepower. They're not the same thing. Illyria didn't use raw energy to destroy the universe. She was messing with time. Do you have the scans? I would like to see this.

That's why Cas thought Dean (being Michaels true vessel) could withstand the true form of an angel but that was not the case. The only human in the show that talked directly to an angel was Jimmy when Cas was preparing him, I don't think being a vessel has anything to do with it, and considering how devout Jimmy was it may have more to do with that. Firepower or manipulation is not an issue if the result is destructive then it counts as an act of destruction, the point is her power was enough to threaten it, the power in Cas was really nothing more than a bunch of souls, and souls were compared to being small nuclear reactors, the scope of his power didn't seem to go beyond affected the world, Illyria reached out farther when she attempted to directly attack a concept.

I don't really want to make this an Illyria vs Cas thing, she is only one of a group and IMO she can cause problems, Cole and Wyatt can warp reality, Glory may offer a great distraction because if I'm not mistaken she can only be killed if she is in Ben form which is why she was cursed into to take on a human form anyway, Ben was human and would eventually die and that would mean no more Glorificus for her co-rulers to worry about. Jasmine is also powerful, and as mentioned his human vessel can be affected by powerful being like Famine, Jasmine may have a chance against him, especially with the warring forces inside of him, is there anything stopping Willow from attempting to drain some of that power off, Dark Willow is reckless and loves to drain people. Don't get me wrong he can certainly win, but I think if they play right so can the team.

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

You're right Cas's true form can only blind most humans and demons in their human vessels. And also his voice can cause earthquakes and tremers. But there is no evidence that a demon's true form can't stand an Angel's true form. I don't think any angel can go to hell willfully anytime they want to. As far as Lucifer creating Lilith, well he most likely used illusions and reality warping to torture her and turn her into a demon. Like the way he posed as Nick's wife to convince Nick to be his vessel. Lucifer was non-corporeal when he did that. When Sam was locked in the cage with Lucifer, he used illusions and reality warping to torture Sam. that's how demons are made. If Sam would have been there any longer, he would have been a demon. Cas was brought back to life soon after Sam and Adam jumped in the cage. He had a power increase. I think the cage was weakened ever since the seals were broken. Since then only a very powerful demon or angel can now just go in. we can only speculate exactly what Lovecraft has done. But what we do know is that he performed a ritual of some sort. We don't know what it is. To give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a very good chance that Ilyria can open the portal to Purgatory. Well you're right about Illyria blowing up had the power to destroy a continent, but God Cas blowing up had the power to destroy the entire earth in immolation according to Death himself.

But they did willingly go to hell to get Dean out so there goes that.

Lilith would have been a soul when he turned her, Nick was human so the need for illusions was prevalent, there is nothing to suggest such things even work on souls.

Sam was in that cage with him and there was never anything in the show that says his torture was an illusion especially demons like Alistair use the same technique on souls in hell and what Dean went through was very real, Sam suffered from hallucinations after and it turns out that is all they were and Lucifer was not really there talking to him. Saying he had a power increase is speculation, he was virtually powerless before his death, when he was brought back he was simply returned the way he was supposed to be with his connection to Heaven intact, he showed nothing to suggest his power was any greater than what it was before. More speculation, the cage was not weakened it was just opened and closed back up or they would not have needed the rings to reopen it, if it was weak then it should not be able to hold two of the most powerful angels let alone one. We know he didn't have the blood of a native, he only wanted to know what was on the other side if he had access to a native they could have told him, so we know he used a different method to open it up, which negates your statement about there only being one specific way as there were three ways in the show, and I bet Death can probably just walking in and out without spells the way he seems to be able to go anywhere he pleases. True about the fate of the Earth if he exploded, but Illyrias power was allowing her to destroy time itself as I said that is well beyond planetary destruction and ventures into the universal side of things.

souls should have no problem at all being next to an angels true form. I thought you said Lilith as a human was turned to a demon. I misread that. But still it's no big deal since it's just a soul and not a living person. Sam was Lucifer's true vessel, so he should be immune to Lucifer true form. And that's if Lucifer showed up as such. And manipulating time isn't destructive firepower. They're not the same thing. Illyria didn't use raw energy to destroy the universe. She was messing with time. Do you have the scans? I would like to see this.

That's why Cas thought Dean (being Michaels true vessel) could withstand the true form of an angel but that was not the case. The only human in the show that talked directly to an angel was Jimmy when Cas was preparing him, I don't think being a vessel has anything to do with it, and considering how devout Jimmy was it may have more to do with that. Firepower or manipulation is not an issue if the result is destructive then it counts as an act of destruction, the point is her power was enough to threaten it, the power in Cas was really nothing more than a bunch of souls, and souls were compared to being small nuclear reactors, the scope of his power didn't seem to go beyond affected the world, Illyria reached out farther when she attempted to directly attack a concept.

I don't really want to make this an Illyria vs Cas thing, she is only one of a group and IMO she can cause problems, Cole and Wyatt can warp reality, Glory may offer a great distraction because if I'm not mistaken she can only be killed if she is in Ben form which is why she was cursed into to take on a human form anyway, Ben was human and would eventually die and that would mean no more Glorificus for her co-rulers to worry about. Jasmine is also powerful, and as mentioned his human vessel can be affected by powerful being like Famine, Jasmine may have a chance against him, especially with the warring forces inside of him, is there anything stopping Willow from attempting to drain some of that power off, Dark Willow is reckless and loves to drain people. Don't get me wrong he can certainly win, but I think if they play right so can the team.

controlling something isn't the same as having the energy output to destroy something. It's like Pyro and Human Torch. Pyro can only manipulate fire but the human torch can produce fire to super nova levels. All Illyria did was controlling time on a wide scale. She didn't generate any energy to destroy the universe like say Michael Demiurgos. Manipulation isn't the same as pure destructive power and energy. And anyway, Illyria in her true form was taken down by Beta George and demon jets by wolfram and hart. This proves Illyria isn't a universal destroyer but a universal manipulator. Durability is proportionate to power. And if she had the power to destroy the universe then there's no way she can be taken down that easily. That would never happen to God Castiel as only God or Death himself can take him down using raw power. God Castiel has the power of the sun. each soul is equivalent to a nuclear reactor, put millions of them together and you get energy as powerful as the sun. Those were Eve's words. God Castiel was pretty much evolved past his angel weakness and limits even though technically he wasn't god. the blade didn't work, the sigils didn't work, he was powerful enough to override spells. So it's highly unlikely that Jasmine's charm would work on him. Famine affected him as a regular angel.

her manipulations would have led to that destruction and that is the point, had she been successful that is what would have happened, the energy output is not the issue, her own energies allow her to manipulate time on that scale. Those things taking her down do not prove she can't destroy the universe. Durability is not proportionate to power, there are tons of fictional beings that have normal human durability and have power that far outweighs that. More speculation about God and Death being the only beings able to take him down especially since the Leviathan were doing a pretty good job of taking him down from the inside while he has the souls inside of him. Cas was not evolved he was mutated and there is a difference he was the only one that thought he was evolved and God until Death told him he was nothing but a mutated angel and his vessel was deteriorating. Famine did not directly affect Cas though he affected his vessel which was still vulnerable as it was the weakness of the vessel that made it impossible for him to contain all the souls he took in, while in the vessel Cas had to give into the physical urges of his vessel as an angel Cas would not need to eat (and never did) but Jimmy had a passion for red meat and Cas was powerless to resist this, Jasmines manipulations have a similar affect in that they affect the person physically, which is why it takes her blood to undo it, if the vessel is affected by her Cas would be too.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@LordFalcon said:

Her essence was too powerful to hold for a human who was not made or chosen to contain her. Take a look what happened to Nick, the vessel that contained Lucifer. He was decaying much faster than Illyria did in Fred's body. So you can't say that makes Illyria unique in that regard. And they said her blowing up would have destroyed North America only. just one continent.

Opening purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and sigil. Not just any power or spell can open it. Without this spell, only God himself can open it. Maybe Death too. God created purgatory and only he can open it. The only other way is to use that spell. Even if Illyria can make another eclipse. I don't see how she or the others can open purgatory without the right specific ingrediants and knowledge. And since this is a ritual, it requires prep. And like I said, both sides get no prep.

Fine, you can use Avatar Cole since he is more powerful than Uber(wasteland)Cole.

it turned out no human could contain her she blamed it on the weakness of the entire species. I don't really get what you are trying to argue, the point remains that her true essence is just as dangerous to people as his true form is. North America is connected to another continent and Asia is not far off, it being destroyed would indeed cause a shift in the continents.

Opening a portal to purgatory requires a specific spell, blood and a sigil, just like the only way to open Lucifers cage was the seals and then the rings, but apparently low end angels like Cas can open it to get Sam out, Death can go in and out as he pleases and according to Wayne Whittaker so can fairies. There is more than one way to open Purgatory, Eve was released without that spell sigil or the blood of native, and H.P. Lovecraft and his friends did not have any of those ingredients or the ones used to free Eve and they opened it, Illyria has the power to open portals to dimensions and apparently had few limitations in that department, so that don't need a ritual.

You can't hold that against the angels or archangels because no human was chosen or made to contain Illyria. That doesnt mean her essence is more powerful. Ben was created to hold Glory. And she is a Hell God. Illyria didn't really plan ahead that far. She didn't even expect her army to be destroyed in Val'ha'nesh. The point is virtually no human or demon can look at his true form without getting killed or blinded. Illyria's true form doesn't have the same effect. People would have no problem perceiving her true form. We're talking about perception here. Cas had his powers increased after he was blown up by Lucifer. He barely got what was left of Sam out of the cage. Death is at the top dicotomey with God as far as cosmics go. I don't know what your talking about fairies. I must of missed that one. Releasing Eve required another ritual. I forgot that and should have mentioned it. And Lovecraft performed a ritual as well, but we don't know exactly what spell it was. For all we know, it could have been the same ritual that the winchesters and bobby peformed and Raphael and Crowley before them. When they said she would destroy North America, it was wiping out all life. Unless you can show me otherwise. Michael and Lucifer were capable of wiping out all life around the globe as a mere side effect when focusing their attacks on each other. God Cas is at least in their tier or higher.

I never said her essence was more powerful only that it is harmful to humans. His true form does not kill it only blinds and it really only does that to humans and demons in humans and some humans as he mentioned can withstand it, humans as a whole are too weak to contain Illyria, there was even a gigantic demon that proved too weak to contain her essence and power. When they stormed Hell in search of Dean they would have been in their true forms, if it were that easy to kill demons not in meat suits, all they would have needed to stop that entire season from happening was to go to Hell and stand around. Lucifer created Lilith, I would assume in his true form and she was fine. There is nothing to suggest he got an increase in power after God brought him back, he was turning human towards the end, and cut off from Heaven, when he came back he had his powers and connection back that is an increase when you consider how much power he lost before. He got all of Sam except the soul, and barely still means he did it, by the rules placed on the cage originally it should have been impossible for him. Lovecraft would have had to have the blood of a native of Purgatory to do the same spell Dean and Bobby did, nothing suggest he had that, if he did then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the attempt to open the portal to see what was on the other side. Point is there are other ways into Purgatory, just like there were other ways to get into the cage. Wes said Rand and McNally would have to re-draw their maps if she exploded, that means more than just lives would have been destroyed. Illyria with her full power went on a rampage to destroy time itself, she is pretty powerful, and anybody that can actually destroy time is a universal power.

You're right Cas's true form can only blind most humans and demons in their human vessels. And also his voice can cause earthquakes and tremers. But there is no evidence that a demon's true form can't stand an Angel's true form. I don't think any angel can go to hell willfully anytime they want to. As far as Lucifer creating Lilith, well he most likely used illusions and reality warping to torture her and turn her into a demon. Like the way he posed as Nick's wife to convince Nick to be his vessel. Lucifer was non-corporeal when he did that. When Sam was locked in the cage with Lucifer, he used illusions and reality warping to torture Sam. that's how demons are made. If Sam would have been there any longer, he would have been a demon. Cas was brought back to life soon after Sam and Adam jumped in the cage. He had a power increase. I think the cage was weakened ever since the seals were broken. Since then only a very powerful demon or angel can now just go in. we can only speculate exactly what Lovecraft has done. But what we do know is that he performed a ritual of some sort. We don't know what it is. To give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a very good chance that Ilyria can open the portal to Purgatory. Well you're right about Illyria blowing up had the power to destroy a continent, but God Cas blowing up had the power to destroy the entire earth in immolation according to Death himself.

But they did willingly go to hell to get Dean out so there goes that.

Lilith would have been a soul when he turned her, Nick was human so the need for illusions was prevalent, there is nothing to suggest such things even work on souls.

Sam was in that cage with him and there was never anything in the show that says his torture was an illusion especially demons like Alistair use the same technique on souls in hell and what Dean went through was very real, Sam suffered from hallucinations after and it turns out that is all they were and Lucifer was not really there talking to him. Saying he had a power increase is speculation, he was virtually powerless before his death, when he was brought back he was simply returned the way he was supposed to be with his connection to Heaven intact, he showed nothing to suggest his power was any greater than what it was before. More speculation, the cage was not weakened it was just opened and closed back up or they would not have needed the rings to reopen it, if it was weak then it should not be able to hold two of the most powerful angels let alone one. We know he didn't have the blood of a native, he only wanted to know what was on the other side if he had access to a native they could have told him, so we know he used a different method to open it up, which negates your statement about there only being one specific way as there were three ways in the show, and I bet Death can probably just walking in and out without spells the way he seems to be able to go anywhere he pleases. True about the fate of the Earth if he exploded, but Illyrias power was allowing her to destroy time itself as I said that is well beyond planetary destruction and ventures into the universal side of things.

souls should have no problem at all being next to an angels true form. I thought you said Lilith as a human was turned to a demon. I misread that. But still it's no big deal since it's just a soul and not a living person. Sam was Lucifer's true vessel, so he should be immune to Lucifer true form. And that's if Lucifer showed up as such. And manipulating time isn't destructive firepower. They're not the same thing. Illyria didn't use raw energy to destroy the universe. She was messing with time. Do you have the scans? I would like to see this.

That's why Cas thought Dean (being Michaels true vessel) could withstand the true form of an angel but that was not the case. The only human in the show that talked directly to an angel was Jimmy when Cas was preparing him, I don't think being a vessel has anything to do with it, and considering how devout Jimmy was it may have more to do with that. Firepower or manipulation is not an issue if the result is destructive then it counts as an act of destruction, the point is her power was enough to threaten it, the power in Cas was really nothing more than a bunch of souls, and souls were compared to being small nuclear reactors, the scope of his power didn't seem to go beyond affected the world, Illyria reached out farther when she attempted to directly attack a concept.

I don't really want to make this an Illyria vs Cas thing, she is only one of a group and IMO she can cause problems, Cole and Wyatt can warp reality, Glory may offer a great distraction because if I'm not mistaken she can only be killed if she is in Ben form which is why she was cursed into to take on a human form anyway, Ben was human and would eventually die and that would mean no more Glorificus for her co-rulers to worry about. Jasmine is also powerful, and as mentioned his human vessel can be affected by powerful being like Famine, Jasmine may have a chance against him, especially with the warring forces inside of him, is there anything stopping Willow from attempting to drain some of that power off, Dark Willow is reckless and loves to drain people. Don't get me wrong he can certainly win, but I think if they play right so can the team.

controlling something isn't the same as having the energy output to destroy something. It's like Pyro and Human Torch. Pyro can only manipulate fire but the human torch can produce fire to super nova levels. All Illyria did was controlling time on a wide scale. She didn't generate any energy to destroy the universe like say Michael Demiurgos. Manipulation isn't the same as pure destructive power and energy. And anyway, Illyria in her true form was taken down by Beta George and demon jets by wolfram and hart. This proves Illyria isn't a universal destroyer but a universal manipulator. Durability is proportionate to power. And if she had the power to destroy the universe then there's no way she can be taken down that easily. That would never happen to God Castiel as only God or Death himself can take him down using raw power. God Castiel has the power of the sun. each soul is equivalent to a nuclear reactor, put millions of them together and you get energy as powerful as the sun. Those were Eve's words. God Castiel was pretty much evolved past his angel weakness and limits even though technically he wasn't god. the blade didn't work, the sigils didn't work, he was powerful enough to override spells. So it's highly unlikely that Jasmine's charm would work on him. Famine affected him as a regular angel.

her manipulations would have led to that destruction and that is the point, had she been successful that is what would have happened, the energy output is not the issue, her own energies allow her to manipulate time on that scale. Those things taking her down do not prove she can't destroy the universe. Durability is not proportionate to power, there are tons of fictional beings that have normal human durability and have power that far outweighs that. More speculation about God and Death being the only beings able to take him down especially since the Leviathan were doing a pretty good job of taking him down from the inside while he has the souls inside of him. Cas was not evolved he was mutated and there is a difference he was the only one that thought he was evolved and God until Death told him he was nothing but a mutated angel and his vessel was deteriorating. Famine did not directly affect Cas though he affected his vessel which was still vulnerable as it was the weakness of the vessel that made it impossible for him to contain all the souls he took in, while in the vessel Cas had to give into the physical urges of his vessel as an angel Cas would not need to eat (and never did) but Jimmy had a passion for red meat and Cas was powerless to resist this, Jasmines manipulations have a similar affect in that they affect the person physically, which is why it takes her blood to undo it, if the vessel is affected by her Cas would be too.

In her old one form, she is bigger and taller than even the tallest skyscrapers. She's supposed to have durability at least for her size. Which she didn't. Don't compare normal humans with powers far beyond outweighing their durability. That is absolutely no comparison. She's the size of a small mountain. The fact that she was taken down so easily despite her size makes her look weak. And again, Firepower does not equal manipulation. And even then, Angels generally exists outside of time. God Cas's temporal abilities exceeded at an exponential rate far beyond past his regular self. Regular Cas can go forwards and backwards in time within at least a couple of decades leisurely. Her time manipulation won't work on him. And his temporal powers probably won't work on her. Both of their temporal powers cancel each other out as they're likely both immune to each other's time manipulation. So this leaves up to pure firepower and destructive energy. God Cas has far greater planet immolating firepower that effortlessly bypasses her weak durability. And it's Leviathans, not Leviathan. There hundreds or even thousands of them in him. He is immune to both his vessel and his own weaknesses. Jasmine charm will not work on him because most likely he can override it. There is no indication that he can't.

I don't care what anyone say, is the best character of all time

Illriya I was talking about

Problem is we actually don't know what Cas was after he swallowed all of Purgatory's souls he got stabbed by an Angel blade and completely shrugged it off. He kill a full powered Arc Angel by clicking his fingers and he broke Death's restraints just by thinking it (where as it had taken Sam and Dean to find all the horse man rings and seal Lucifer and they weren't even sure that broke his binding). So unless they have the power to hold out long enough for the Leviathan's to eat him from the inside out, what can they actually do to stop him?

@Strider92 said:

Problem is we actually don't know what Cas was after he swallowed all of Purgatory's souls he got stabbed by an Angel blade and completely shrugged it off. He kill a full powered Arc Angel by clicking his fingers and he broke Death's restraints just by thinking it (where as it had taken Sam and Dean to find all the horse man rings and seal Lucifer and they weren't even sure that broke his binding). So unless they have the power to hold out long enough for the Leviathan's to eat him from the inside out, what can they actually do to stop him?

we know exactly what he was after he took all the souls of Purgatory, he was a mutated angel, nothing more and nothing less. They can stop him by sending him and his souls back to where they (the souls) came from, Purgatory, doing that is well within Illyrias power, Jasmine could only be killed by her father, and Cas is not her father. They knew that getting rid of Lucifer would break Deaths binding, because part of being locked in the cage made it so that Lucifer had no power to effect the world while imprisoned, we know this because he could not take any action until released.

@LordOfAllHumans: It's been stated that any form of Angel can be killed by an Angel blade, Seraph, Arc, Cupid etc... and yet when he was stabbed it had absolutely no effect by that logic he can't be an Angel. He would have been an entity more along the lines Eve. That's exactly my point they sealed Lucifer thus Death has no-one to control him but it didn't break those bindings as soon as Lucifer gets free of his seal he'll go straight back to being bound to him.

@Strider92 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: It's been stated that any form of Angel can be killed by an Angel blade, Seraph, Arc, Cupid etc... and yet when he was stabbed it had absolutely no effect by that logic he can't be an Angel. He would have been an entity more along the lines Eve. That's exactly my point they sealed Lucifer thus Death has no-one to control him but it didn't break those bindings as soon as Lucifer gets free of his seal he'll go straight back to being bound to him.

any form of angel that was part of natural creation maybe, but Death is supposed to be at least partly omniscient, and he clearly stated, that he has seen God and Cas was no God and called him a mutated angel, proven by his vessel decomposing. He didn't change "species", Eve is something completely different than angels so he would not be anything like her, he was still an angel and still had a grace or he would have exploded a lot sooner then they were expecting, he was just an incredibly powerful angel. The highest are the archangels and he was above that so it makes since that a weapon that was only created to kill archangels or lower wouldn't work on him. If it didn't break the binding then he would not have been available for being bound by Sam, Dean and Bobby. Sam was being tortured personally by Lucifer in the cage, Death went into the cage and got Sams soul out, this would lead one to believe that Lucifer was right there as there was nothing to suggest he took a break on Sam, so if he were still bound why not just command Death to let him out too?

@LordOfAllHumans: Thats actually a good point he can't still be bond to Lucifer if he managed to enter the cage and not get bossed around by Lucifer. Well the fact that whether Castiel was or wasn't an Angel after the transformation can be debated (in my opinon he wasn't as Angel blades, Holy fire and Angel banishing sigils didn't work on him) but it still comes down to the same thing. If he doesn't have the weakness of an Angel anymore and their exists no lore on whatever he became how do you put him down?(Apart from waiting for the Leviathan's to eat him of course)

@Strider92 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: Thats actually a good point he can't still be bond to Lucifer if he managed to enter the cage and not get bossed around by Lucifer. Well the fact that whether Castiel was or wasn't an Angel after the transformation can be debated (in my opinon he wasn't as Angel blades, Holy fire and Angel banishing sigils didn't work on him) but it still comes down to the same thing. If he doesn't have the weakness of an Angel anymore and their exists no lore on whatever he became how do you put him down?(Apart from waiting for the Leviathan's to eat him of course)

It really can't be debated, Death has more knowledge about the universe than any other being shown, if he says he was a mutated angel, then he was still an angel only mutated, the way the X-Men are human, but mutated. We only call him God Cas because Cas was delusional and corrupted, since he was more powerful than Raphael he believed he was God as he believed the will of archangels to be absolute so in his eyes anything that could take one out must be God, remember he spent some time looking for God as he thought that was the only being other than Michael powerful enough to stop Lucifer, he was wrong. No lore on him does not mean there is not a way to stop him, all that means is that humans have never faced anything like him before, as all the lore comes from books written by men. Death gave them a way to take him down, and it worked, all they needed to do was reopen the portal the hard part would have been getting him to show up, but he did anyway, so opening the portal was all it took and there is nothing to suggest Illyria can't open a portal to Purgatory and the souls will leave him, they were trying to get out anyway, as soon as the portal opened they jumped at the chance to return home. Not being affected by angel blades and enochian sigils just meant that he was powerful enough to circumvent them, that does not mean he was no longer an angel, same way Alistair was able to resist being killed by a blade that kills demons, hew as still a demons, but he was a powerful one and apparently more powerful than the blade. Raphael and Gabriel seemed to be under the impression that holy fire from holy oil would kill them as it was stated to do, but it only banished Michael for a short time, is Michael not an angel because something that kills and binds angels didn't affect him?

He'd have problems with UberCole. If GodCas is susceptible to being removed from existence, UberCole would take it.

Just look at GodCas' best attack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5K1A5EFDSo&t=0m42s and now compare that to what Cole survived BEFORE becoming an Avatar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT0fk25JUpM&t=1m59s. Cole survives that attack from Castiel. Castiel wouldn't be able to kill him.

So if Castiel could be removed from existence, UberCole with his Avatar powers erases him. Avatars have that kind of mojo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b53XhElLY1I&t=12m35s andhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b53XhElLY1I&t=2m15s

Supernatural's Death hinted that GodCas could be killed. If it's in any way like how Raphael died, then Cole could definitely swing that. I think the way it works in Supernatural is that if an Angel wields more power than another Angel, they can simply snap their fingers and blow them up(An ArchAngel did it to Castiel in S4, Lucifer did it to Castiel in S5, GodCas did it Raphael in S6). The Avatars feats and powers are more impressive than Cas', and they are certainly capable of making someone explode, so it's a possibility that Cole could blow up GodCas.

@CitizenBane said:

None of them have the tools or the power to actually kill him.

Scenario 1 : Cas definitely takes it .

Scenario 2 : Hard to predict .

Btw , new thread : http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/god-castielfrom-supernatural-vs-mad-jim-jaspers/657457/#2

Is this more of a fair fight ?