Gladiator (While his confidence is at its peak) vs Superman

acewasp23 says:

"Methos says:

"Logic Mark III says:

"I don't remember a stipulation that Superman was underpowered...i have writing under that assumption. And stick to the main Superman, not a Super irradiated variant, or a Future enhanced version. I dont see what the harm is in Superman losing a fight. I mean the dude wins most of them whats one?"

no, you're stating that Gladiator is at his full strength... well we know that in full continuity, at full strength, Superman is equal to a **God**. so why give Gladiator the 'full confidence' treatment and not give Superman the same consideration? M"

because then superman would win lol. "

Exactly what I just said.

i'm not actually getting into the battle lol

i just want to know, why give Gladiator a power up for the battle, and not give Superman the same?

seems like you just want Gladiator to win to me

M

Gladiator at full power would throw everything but the kitchen sink at Superman. And when the dust settled and Superman was still alive his confidence would start to sway.

Logic Mark III says:

"Well Gladiator too has been described as a 'god' so i don't think Supes wins there"

Well people in Storm's tribe thought she was a goddess but dont tell me that puts her on Superman's level too.

Well Gladiator too has been described as a 'god' so i don't think Supes wins there

Logic Mark III says:

"Well Gladiator too has been described as a 'god' so i don't think Supes wins there"

so?

if Gladiator is that powerful, why not allow Superman the same powerup you've given Gladiator?

Gladiator at his canonical strongest, Vs Superman at his canonical strongest.

seems like the best way to do the match

M

Logic Mark III says:

"I have not taken away your Superman's feats such as his planet moving, i have not put him in Kryptonite chains, you guys are making any crap up now, i have in no way shape or form limited Superman"

i never said you limited him, i said the entire Fight was based on Gladiator having a bonus that Superman doesn't have

M

I have not taken away your Superman's feats such as his planet moving, i have not put him in Kryptonite chains, you guys are making any crap up now, i have in no way shape or form limited Superman

Gambler says:

"Gladiator at full power would throw everything but the kitchen sink at Superman. And when the dust settled and Superman was still alive his confidence would start to sway."

That's something I don't think the Gladiator backers are thinking of. His confidence boosts him, but it also weakens him as well. When he hits superman full force (how many times have we seen this in a comic) and superman doens't even budge. Then he eye beams superman full intensity and superman laughs...Gladiators powers are going to drop so low (like they did when sue knocked him out) that he will be right around the Things strength and resistance to injury. Superman could then thump him to sleep.

Logic Mark III says:

"Well it has been theorised he was a herald of Galactus so if it makes ya feel better he may be cosmic can you believe he is that powerful now [besides there are always exceptions to rules]? The issues elude me at this time but it is Marvel Comics Presents and he does this stuff while he is BORED. So imagine him determined and at his peak of confidence....."

NO! even a herald of Galactus cannot lift 250,000,000 tons!!

I am not saying that Storm is in his league all im saying is descriptions of the dude as something doesn't matter as Gladiator has been describe as the same, what is the issue here? why are you being tedious little fanboys?

Logic Mark III says:

"why are you being tedious little fanboys?"

i'm not...

i wasn't even arguing with you in the first place, my argument was with the thread maker who gave Gladiator a boost, while keeping Superman at his normal levels.

i'm not being a 'fanboy', i'm asking a simple question...

isn't it more fair in a fight to have the characters at the same level, not giving one an advantage while keeping the other back?

M

Logic Mark III says:

"I am not saying that Storm is in his league all im saying is descriptions of the dude as something doesn't matter as Gladiator has been describe as the same, what is the issue here? why are you being tedious little fanboys?"

I have no vested interest in either character. But if your telling me Gladiator can take Superman then I'll show you reasons why he cant.

At best Gladiator at full confidence is on Superman's level. And like Val and I said once Gladiator realized that Superman is every bit as durable as he is then his confidence would shrink and so would his power.

Well okay i think i know what you are getting at 1. The FF trick: that would not actually work now would it? Gladiator may not have been able to break the shield but that soft mushy man called Captain America behind the shield would have been so much road pizza even with Sue creating a force field [which i don't think is what she was explained as doing]2. The Cannonball incident: That was a joke an example of what i said writers do, they enhanced a sideline character like Cannonball by making him defeat a big man, anyway Gladiator was not defeated he got back up and all he wanted was the x-mens attention, at the en of that comic he doesn't send Cannonball because he is a child do you think if the Gladiator had had his ass handed to him for real he would have kept back a 'heavy hitter' like Cannonball? He CAN destroy planets i think Superman is going to feel that, he HAS survived Galaxy ruining explosions i think that will protect him from Superman. End of the day when you square it up Gladiator is AT LEAST AS strong, FASTER, MORE invulnerable, an a BETTER martial artist, all of this combined makes him able to take Superman down.

fair enough...

Gladiator is a heavy hitter at his full strength, i admit that :D

M

Why would his confidence shrink? WHY? he isn't a pussy, he has fought people on an above Silver Surfer levels of power. H has fought people on a Superman level before Hyperion and Supreme. Tell me what about the big S apart from fanboyism makes Gladiator run and cry like a little girl?

Logic Mark III says:

"I am not saying that Storm is in his league all im saying is descriptions of the dude as something doesn't matter as Gladiator has been describe as the same, what is the issue here? why are you being tedious little fanboys?"

Fanboys? I actually like Gladiator more than I like Superman. I dont like the fact that Superman is as powerful as he is because I think it limits what you can do with the character. But that doesnt change the fact that Gladiator isn't even in Superman's league. There's pages of evidence here showing that. Gambler just reiterated the most important aspect of this. Even if you assume that Gladiator is on the same level that Superman is, which is what I wanted Methos to try, Gladiator still loses. Superman has a long history fighting characters on his power level or higher and still coming out on top. While Gladiator has lost to weaker characters than himself simply because he loses confidence over the course of the fight. That alone should tell you that Gladiator will lose, so why are you being the fanboy?

He witnessed a huge chunk of is crew die at the hands of Vulcan and before in the Cassandra Nova arc [he has psi defenses for anyone wanting to say T-vo]Wolverine and beast merced a lot of his crew too, and all that did was piss him off and make him super invulnerable.

so Gladiator get's more powerful with his confidence, but looses power if his confidence goes down right?

M

If they could they would make Gladiator lose to Jubilee, if you look at all his appearances you can see there is great variability, but in all of his descriptions he is pegged as having incalculable power levels does that sound right then for him to be beaten by Cannonball? NO. Until people take him seriously [a few writers have] or he gets his own series we wont see him at a constant high level like Superma will we? its that simple.

Logic Mark III says:

"He witnessed a huge chunk of is crew die at the hands of Vulcan and before in the Cassandra Nova arc [he has psi defenses for anyone wanting to say T-vo]Wolverine and beast merced a lot of his crew too, and all that did was piss him off and make him super invulnerable."

Did you just compare Vulcan to Superman?

Logic Mark III says:

"If they could they would make Gladiator lose to Jubilee, if you look at all his appearances you can see there is great variability, but in all of his descriptions he is pegged as having incalculable power levels does that sound right then for him to be beaten by Cannonball? NO. Until people take him seriously [a few writers have] or he gets his own series we wont see him at a constant high level like Superma will we? its that simple."

ok, we'll stick with this thread... Superman (at normal levels of power) Vs Gladiator (with confidence at his peak, so supreme levels of power)

and i'll create a new thread to see how it should end up...

M

Logic Mark III says:

"If they could they would make Gladiator lose to Jubilee, if you look at all his appearances you can see there is great variability, but in all of his descriptions he is pegged as having incalculable power levels does that sound right then for him to be beaten by Cannonball? NO. Until people take him seriously [a few writers have] or he gets his own series we wont see him at a constant high level like Superma will we? its that simple."

I can agree with that. Thats an entirely different matter though.

Yes i did compare Superman to Vulcan...MIND OVER MATTER, people underestimate that...if you take that power out of comics its freaking insane Superman would be a shitsmear on a wall to someone with Telekinesis [and in that comic Vulcan wasn't far off of its true use as he was out to kill them]. if he wanted to he could just tear anyone in half with a thought he is probably the most powerful telikinetik in the MU, yet his vast power couldn't even reach Gladiator because he BELIEVED HIMSELF UNTOUCHABLE. [how is Superman gonna hit something that his attacks cant even get to within a few inches of?]

here we go...

http://www.comicvine.com/message/gladiator-at-full-power-vs-superman-at-full-power/212781/&c=0&0

both of the characters at Full power... that seems to be a more fair argument

M

Logic Mark III says:

"Yes i did compare Superman to Vulcan...MIND OVER MATTER, people underestimate that...if you take that power out of comics its freaking insane Superman would be a shitsmear on a wall to someone with Telekinesis [and in that comic Vulcan wasn't far off of its true use as he was out to kill them]. if he wanted to he could just tear anyone in half with a thought he is probably the most powerful telikinetik in the MU, yet his vast power couldn't even reach Gladiator because he BELIEVED HIMSELF UNTOUCHABLE. [how is Superman gonna hit something that his attacks cant even get to within a few inches of?]"

So now not only can Gladiator (who you just stated beat Vulcan. With one punch I might add) kill Superman but Vulcan can to. I think we have a clear cut case of Marvel fanboyism.

That punch that dropped Vulcan wouldn't have done the same damage to Superman and Gladiator's confidence would have dropped.
Post Edited:2007-08-21 20:54:15

Didn't you read what i said Mind over matter. In its truest form it trumps any level of invulnerability matter is putty to you, you think molecules into what you want. That is the true definition of the power as i understand it. I said Superman because that is who we are discussing but it could be anyone Hulk, Supreme, GLADIATOR [apart from his untouchable thing but without it he is gone]. If you read x-men the end when Cassandra Nova lops off a female Gladiators head with but a thought...see mind over matter, i'm not being biased i o like the Big S but i refuse to believe he is undefeatable and one of the people who i feel can beat him is Gladiator.

Post Deleted.

Dude i explained that stuff before, if you look at him overall there are huge gaps in his character, in this Gambits cars give him trouble and Deathbird [a 1-2 tonner at best] can punch him an he feels it. YET when he fought the FF, as i have said he survived a blast capable of destroying half the Milkyway and flew straight to Earth all it did was make him cranky an unreasonable.

Logic Mark III says:

"Dude i explained that stuff before, if you look at him overall there are huge gaps in his character, in this Gambits cars give him trouble and Deathbird [a 1-2 tonner at best] can punch him an he feels it. YET when he fought the FF, as i have said he survived a blast capable of destroying half the Milkyway and flew straight to Earth all it did was make him cranky an unreasonable."

So why is that example any less helpful to the debate as you bringing up the Vulcan arc? If anything I think you've shown Gladiator to be one of thee most inconsistent characters in Marvel. From the issues I've seen they use Gladiator as a stepping stone, a character to use so people can see how powerful the OTHER fighter is.

If he had a series as long running as Superman's and was developed as Superman had been do you think he would have these little snafu's where he loses to people 1000's of times lower in power than him? NO. He would be stalemating other popular characters in that way they do...have a little fight realise they are equal and on the same side then go beat up a bad guy wouldn't they. But he isn't a hero, doesn't have his own comic and is useful in advancing plot and such so writer's can do what they want with him and many have chosen to make him a whipping boy, but some have stuck to his descriptions and made him somewhat as powerful as he is.

Logic Mark III says:

"If he had a series as long running as Superman's and was developed as Superman had been do you think he would have these little snafu's where he loses to people 1000's of times lower in power than him? NO. He would be stalemating other popular characters in that way they do...have a little fight realise they are equal and on the same side then go beat up a bad guy wouldn't they. But he isn't a hero, doesn't have his own comic and is useful in advancing plot and such so writer's can do what they want with him and many have chosen to make him a whipping boy, but some have stuck to his descriptions and made him somewhat as powerful as he is. "

Well put. But as it stands now even at full power he cannot defeat Superman.

Gambler you hit it on the head, he is a plot device f you look at most of his appearances, but look at his descriptions of power levels and most of those appearances he has made don't tally. So some things have to be looked at for what they are pure plot and other character advancement. Take Hulk v.s Gladiator for instance, disregarding strength an invulnerability, when Gladiator tried to fly Hulk into space he was stopped, now how does big ol' Hulk stop a guy who can travel 100 times faster than light from taking him into space? it would have happene and Hulk would have realised 5 minutes later that he was in space and Gladiator would be on Miami beach sunning himself drinking Cocktails thinking how it was funny that a green muscleman thought he could take the leader of the Sh'iar Imperial Guard, a Planet crushing , sun flying through badass with a Mohawk.

Logic Mark III says:

"Gambler you hit it on the head, he is a plot device f you look at most of his appearances, but look at his descriptions of power levels and most of those appearances he has made don't tally. So some things have to be looked at for what they are pure plot and other character advancement. Take Hulk v.s Gladiator for instance, disregarding strength an invulnerability, when Gladiator tried to fly Hulk into space he was stopped, now how does big ol' Hulk stop a guy who can travel 100 times faster than light from taking him into space? it would have happene and Hulk would have realised 5 minutes later that he was in space and Gladiator would be on Miami beach sunning himself drinking Cocktails thinking how it was funny that a green muscleman thought he could take the leader of the Sh'iar Imperial Guard, a Planet crushing , sun flying through badass with a Mohawk."

Lmao.

Logic Mark III says:

"If he had a series as long running as Superman's and was developed as Superman had been do you think he would have these little snafu's where he loses to people 1000's of times lower in power than him? NO. He would be stalemating other popular characters in that way they do...have a little fight realise they are equal and on the same side then go beat up a bad guy wouldn't they. But he isn't a hero, doesn't have his own comic and is useful in advancing plot and such so writer's can do what they want with him and many have chosen to make him a whipping boy, but some have stuck to his descriptions and made him somewhat as powerful as he is. "

I like what youre saying but think of Thor. Think of how ridiculously powerful he was in his regular series, but when they put him in the Avengers or he showed up in someone else's comic, he was radically depowered. All too often the most powerful characters are used to elevate the weaker characters. I'm not sure that would change even if Gladiator had his own comic. He would have to gain the popularity of Superman or Wolverine for that to be the case.

Logic Mark III says:

"Gambler you hit it on the head, he is a plot device f you look at most of his appearances, but look at his descriptions of power levels and most of those appearances he has made don't tally. So some things have to be looked at for what they are pure plot and other character advancement. Take Hulk v.s Gladiator for instance, disregarding strength an invulnerability, when Gladiator tried to fly Hulk into space he was stopped, now how does big ol' Hulk stop a guy who can travel 100 times faster than light from taking him into space? it would have happene and Hulk would have realised 5 minutes later that he was in space and Gladiator would be on Miami beach sunning himself drinking Cocktails thinking how it was funny that a green muscleman thought he could take the leader of the Sh'iar Imperial Guard, a Planet crushing , sun flying through badass with a Mohawk."

that actually made me laugh out loud...

brilliant :D

M

Well this has been fun but for now i must sleep. If anything comes from this it is that Gladiator has not been given his dues, and thats a shame. Long live all cape wearing, last sons of exploded planets, vulnerable to some radiation, underpants on the outside of their trousers wearing Ubermench on a mission.

roflol... see ya :D

M

Forever says:

"Logic Mark III says:

"I am not saying that Storm is in his league all im saying is descriptions of the dude as something doesn't matter as Gladiator has been describe as the same, what is the issue here? why are you being tedious little fanboys?"

Fanboys? I actually like Gladiator more than I like Superman. I dont like the fact that Superman is as powerful as he is because I think it limits what you can do with the character. But that doesnt change the fact that Gladiator isn't even in Superman's league. There's pages of evidence here showing that. Gambler just reiterated the most important aspect of this. Even if you assume that Gladiator is on the same level that Superman is, which is what I wanted Methos to try, Gladiator still loses. Superman has a long history fighting characters on his power level or higher and still coming out on top. While Gladiator has lost to weaker characters than himself simply because he loses confidence over the course of the fight. That alone should tell you that Gladiator will lose, so why are you being the fanboy?"

I totally agree with Forever. I am a huge Gladiator fan and I would love to think Gladiator could stand up to Superman...but he cannot. Marvel and DC are just on different levels. Marvels strong men have Class 100 strength able to routinely lift over 100 tons. Even someone like Gladiator or Champion that can lift far over 100 tons cannot lift 250,000,000 tons!! Kurse is far over class 100 and he can lift around 400 maybe 500 tons which is again not even in superman's ballpark. IF you are a marvel fan, which by the way I am, then you have to admit that marvel just doens't go that powerful other than Guys like Galactus!! You cannot possibly believe that Marvel created Gladiator to be 500000 times stronger than Kurse who is about 4 times stronger than Thor! Marvel originally had Thor at 95 tons, Wonderman is still at 95 tons, Hyperion is at 75 tons. You think Gladiator has even one tenth of supermans 250,000,000 tons?

Valkaad says:

"I totally agree with Forever. I am a huge Gladiator fan and I would love to think Gladiator could stand up to Superman...but he cannot. Marvel and DC are just on different levels. Marvels strong men have Class 100 strength able to routinely lift over 100 tons. Even someone like Gladiator or Champion that can lift far over 100 tons cannot lift 250,000,000 tons!! Kurse is far over class 100 and he can lift around 400 maybe 500 tons which is again not even in superman's ballpark. IF you are a marvel fan, which by the way I am, then you have to admit that marvel just doens't go that powerful other than Guys like Galactus!! You cannot possibly believe that Marvel created Gladiator to be 500000 times stronger than Kurse who is about 4 times stronger than Thor! Marvel originally had Thor at 95 tons, Wonderman is still at 95 tons, Hyperion is at 75 tons. You think Gladiator has even one tenth of supermans 250,000,000 tons?"

Too many people dont want to look at the differences between the companies. Incalculable strength in Marvel would be calculated to something well below Superman in DC.

thats true... the companies do differ greatley when it comes to measuring strength and power levels...

what they consider to be an 'omega' class mutant, isn't actually that powerful in the DCU

M

Methos says:

"thats true... the companies do differ greatley when it comes to measuring strength and power levels... what they consider to be an 'omega' class mutant, isn't actually that powerful in the DCU M"

When youre right, youre right.

thats what makes crossover battles quite hard to argue about...

especially ones that look balanced at first glance, like this one, but when you get into the logistics of it are way off...

M

Methos says:

"thats what makes crossover battles quite hard to argue about... especially ones that look balanced at first glance, like this one, but when you get into the logistics of it are way off... M"

I have said before that none of marvels bricks can come close to even someone like solomon grundy, much less Powergirl or Wonderwoman!!

thats true...

it's just stupid and ends up with stupid Marvel Vs DC arguments...

M

which i learned very quickly.

thank god :D

M

I know the levels by which things are measured are different between the companies but i don't see why they would not be able to move out of those bounds, if a character is shown to be strong enough to affect planets are you still saying he is only capable of 100 tons worth of damage? Besides Gladiators strength is usually unspecified/incalculable [incalculable is incalculable full stop]. I agree that a lot of Marvel people are lower in PHYSICAL Strength [i don't think Marvel Omega's are weaker than DC characters because end of the day characters with control over matter and reality, which marvel has a lot of, override mere muscle men...Superman: 'i can lift the moon' Phoenix: 'i can turn you into the moon' no contest]but that doesn't mean ALL are. I don't see why you cant see the Gladiator is AT LEAST as powerful when, even though he has had less chance to show them, he has done feats on Superman's level and beyond.

its a draw!

HHEHEHE yeah they look at each other say i like you style and go for a brewski, and use their x-ray vision on girls locker rooms throughout the cosmos. THE MOST POWERFUL PERVES IN THE GALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAXY!!!!