My, My....there's a reason I called you one of the worst debaters out here
And I already noted how much it means to me that such a respected debater as yourself would take time out of your day to not only continue to respond to my downright awful posts, but also give me my own title!
You the real MVP GrayGhost.
More than a day, and still the respect threads cough up rubbish?
I'm assuming you're insinuating that I just pull all of my scans from respect threads.
Well, in a way you're almost right.
Believe it or not, I don't still have every issue of every comic I've ever read ever.
So sometimes, instead of going out to buy an entire issue when all I require is one scan, I just Google the image that I want. If it helps, I know exactly what I'm looking for each time, and as far as I know most debaters do this as well.
However, I think it is so impressive that you personally scan every issue you own and provide them from your personal collection. Brings a tear to my eye, your dedication does.
Oh, wait. You don't provide scans. You just insult people and provide rubbish arguments.
That's cool too.
1. Thawne and Mercury are class 100s? Haha seriously. Stop reaching.
When did I say that either of them were Class 100s? You asked for him one shotting people, and I provided that.
The Max Mercury feat isn't even an IMP which is the specific feat asked for
I noted that.
And an instance of Diana beating Wally is supposed to be him one shotting her?
It's more supposed to be him basically wrecking her and putting her on the ground with one hit, and her admitting that Flash could easily hit her like that hundreds of millions of times before she could react.
Presumably your respect thread failed to follow up with the rest of the fight then?
I could have shown the part prior where WW was able to tag Flash, the hit have absolutely no effect, and then Flash puts the whooping on her. But I didn't think that was necessary.
2. Talking aboutgrammar to ignore arguments is an interesting new tactic but just to clarify
1). It's not a new tactic.
2). I just really couldn't understand anything you said, it was that illegible.
Wally when mind controlled and bloodlusted failed to one shot either Jonn or Diana, the beginning of the Diana fight having been posted by you already
I believe the term is called " shooting yourself in the foot".
Well done. You just shot yourself in the foot
Couple things wrong here, first of which is your smug attitude.
1). Wally wrecked Diana's face.
2). Obviously he wasn't at 100%, as Wonder Woman herself noted that Flash could wreck her hundred of millions of times.
And on top of it, he left scorch marks, which WW again noted he knows better than to do.
3). Wally already one-shotted Zum, who was specifially noted to be in the "Superman Class and then some!"
So, since MMH is also in the "Superman Class," Wally should logically one-shot him as well.
So please, for once in this entire debate, provide some scans proving that a bloodlusted Wally can't one-shot J'onn.
3. I've already actually brought up two instances of a bloodlusted wally failing to do much against Jonn and Diana.
Two incorrect instances, I'm afraid.
Another instance would be his utter faikure to harm the Red King. Yet another instance would be his attempts doing jack all to Prime on a day hes being punched about by regular Clark
Scans plz.
Thanks a bunch.
and seriously? " none of his feats matter because he was not bloodlusted , hence we don't know his true potential"?
I don't believe I ever said that sentence once this entire debate.
There you go again, making things up.
THATS your argument? Well I guess Batman beats Superman then. Since hes always holding back and we neverwill know his " true potential" and we can assume anything we want
Sure, that's totally what I'm saying.
I mean Batman has hacked Doomsday clones who semd supes flying with their punches to pieces with a battle axe after all. Maybe hes a class 100 after all, by your logic
He probably is.
All hail Batgod.
4."every feat should be taken into consideration"
so Batman is a FTL, class 100 soloing character while Wally is simultaneously a multi versal guy and that dude who Nightwing ties up with his rope without looking.
Glad we settled that. Heaven forbid there might have been a flaw in your logic
Heaven forbid you pay any attention to what I say. Like ever.
5. So wait you aresaying " Wally can crack a multiversal armour BUT he himself absolutely isn't multiversal"
Yup.
I have to say though. For all my complaints about you being inconsistent , you are remarkably consistent in contradicting yourself/ consistently shooting yourself in the foot
Thanks bub.
6.So Wally can outperform the entire PC universe and beat up the COIE Anti Monitor but he can't beat the Living Tribunal when you yourself note stuff like "Wally can KO anyone if hes bloodlusted/ IMPing"
That's not at all my argument.
In fact, I'm not even stating that he can one-shot Surfer.
However, he has been shown to dish out one-shot punches to Superman level characters.
There is absolutely no reason why continuous IMPs that hit like White Dwarf Stars can't take down Surfer.
Any reason then why Wally should fail to beat LT, by your logic?
Because LT is Omniversal and Wally has no feats of beating an enemy of that caliber.
7. So you just went from " Flash sees the world frozen in time" to " slower guys can tag him when hes not bloodlusted"
It didn't go from anything.
Flash does see the world frozen in time, even when he's not trying to it slows down for him.
But slower guys tag him when he's just in character because he doesn't utilize his full speed.
Does that make sense? No.
But it's consistent to his character when not bloodlusted.
it would appear then , given that wally was not bloodlusted at the time he saw the world as frozen in time , that thats PIS given by your own admission a non bloodlusted Wally is slow enough to be tagged by Batman
Explained above.
Oh, and Batman tagged Kid Flash. Just sayin'.
In fact all those other occasions of Wally reacting in nanoseconds and the like are also obviously PIS, since most of them involve a non bloodlusted Wally and your own comments with regards to his speed
Nah, because there are times when a non-bloodlusted Flash moves fast while not in a fight, because he needs to get something done. I never said he neverutilizes his speed. I said it's rare.
And when he utilizes it whilst non-bloodlusted, it's usually not in a combat-oriented sense.
So basically every single Wally West comic minus 4 or 5 are PIS and the feats meaningless since you yourself flat out refuse to consider anything other than a bloodlusted Wally to be unusable
Nope.
But you can't show him getting tagged by Batman or DS as a usable feat for this debate when he wasn't bloodlusted in those instances, and he's bloodlusted here. His speed is consistent while bloodlusted, but it varies while in character.
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say that before it becomes clear.
While this is indeed a hilarious way to sidestep things like Wally getting beaten up by Martians on days he IMPs and reacts in picoseconds, I have to ask you though, how then did a bloodlusted Wally achieve Jack all vs Diana?
By being much, much faster.
Duh.
You truly do give a new meaning to the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot"
Thanks pal.
8. But of course we are. Even after that " awful flash retcon" we have various things like the "history of the DCU" in 52 which explicitly show Spectre fighting AM in full armour and failing to bust it
Truthfully I'm getting tired of all your ridiculous claims with no evidence to support what you say. You just say things with no regards to context, which makes me believe that you've never actually read the instances you bring up.
So, with that being the case, I'm going to start making you prove the claims you make. As I'm sure that will very quickly prove how full of it you really are.
So, to start, Show the History of the DCU where Spectre fails to bust his armor, please.
9. Wally West has however gone up against far weaker beings since and achieved exactly nothing. Fernus as just one example.
Show it, please.
Or if you like , bloodlusted, vs Red King,
Show it, please.
weakened Prime
Show it, please.
and hilariously Diana
I've addressed this already.
Your logic is really holding up well here
Thanks bub.
10. Post crisis superman is definitely in this battle and he definitely did lift an infinite weight that one time,just like Wally definitelydid job out a multiversal dude that one titime
sO post crisis has infinite strength based on that one feat, yes or no?
Show it, please.
11. Why does Nightwing tagging Wally not count when in your own words Batman tagging wally counts?
Because. Flash. Wasn't. Bloodlusted.
Repeating myself gets tiring.
Oh dear....the consistency is.....mind numbing
Thanks bub.
12. If Batman can tag a " holding bacj Kid Flash", why the hell do any of Wallys feats of reacting in nanoseconds and the like, while holding back count?
Because his speed varies when in character.
However, he wasn't moving all that fast when Batman tagged him.
Oh wait, ive got it. Wally can react in nanoseconds while holding back, except when he is tagged by Batman , but the time Nightwing tagged him is utter PIS by your logic
I didn't call the Nightwing showing PIS.
Brilliant. Just brilliant
Appreciate it.
12. " I'm going to say Wally is stronger than a guyowho as a kid clears out a galaxy worth of planets amd tosses around neutron stars for fun.....based on a bloodlusted Wally failing to beat post crisis Diana?"
Mhhhhm.
Oooh. ..The logic
Yup.
13. Post crisis supes hasn't actually faced a bloodlusted Wally, iirc. Post crisis Jonn and Diana on the other hand have done just fine
Show it, please.
14.Hunter sure did beat the crap out of Diana before. .....losing
She didn't outspeed Hunter. IIRC she used her lasso and Zoom had the upperhand the entire fight and was super cocky.
Wally sure did ( barely) manage to keep up with Zoom after receiving 3 different amps
A fully Bloodlusted Hunter who wasn't super cocky towards Diana.
15.Blindfolded Diana has beaten both Wally and Zoom. By your logic every feat counts, so is Diana millions of times faster than Wally, yes or no?
Nope. Blindfolded Diana has never beaten a bloodlusted Wally, and the Zoom instance Hunter had the upperhand literally the entire fight until Diana got him with the lasso, which she wouldn't have accomplished without him being cocky.
Please, for the love of all that's good, learn what context is.
since slade tagged Wally, is noted to be faster than him while doing so , Slade absolutely is by your logic faster than Wally, yes or no?
Nope.
and hey its not even like it has happened just the once , he's done it time and again
so Sladis faster, yes or no?
Nope.
16. So when Jonn and Diana can beat up your theoretical bloodlusted wally, why do you feel Gladiator and surfer can't?
They can't beat up my theoretical bloodlusted Wally, that's the key here.
17. Wait. ...did you just say Slade is stronger/ faster than Glads amd surfer? o_0
Nope.
18. So you can't find feats for Wally moving so fast God himself has to intervene to stop the annihilation of civilizations and yet you claim that Wally is faster than PC Supes?
Yup.
Good grief. The logic. At least you can note the feats stated amd observe that PC characters are faster. But nope.
I didn't note that. I noted that you're asking for too specific of a feat.
I could just as easily say "Show me a time where PC Supes one-shotted Zum, and if you can't than Wally is stronger."
Your logic amounts to "Show me an exact replica of a feat that one character did, and if the other character hasn't done it then he obviously can't."
That's honestly just stupid. You're asking for a super specific feat that only one character has done, when Wally fighting an entire fight in a picosecond is a far more impressive feat. Him not doing the other feat doesn't suddenly make him weaker.
Duh.
19. i realise your knowledge of DC is limited to what little you can glean from respect threads but seriously, even a percusroy glance at some wiki reveals Wally was depowered to speed of sound levels after the crisis
*Applauds ignorance*
20. When I note that Wallys best feats involve time travel as opposed to your rubbish from wikis including ignoring hilarious stuff like how Wally was depowered upto circa Zero hour, I would say yes, I know about Wallys time travel feats
*More applause*
As it is, when do you feel Wally did anything time travel related in his fight with Zoom before the amp?
When did I say he did anything time travel related in his fight with Zoom?.....
13. Surfer and Gladiator being fast enough to fight people across time itself/ time stops being faster than beings who move at absolute zero is more than good enough to start with as to why they thrash Wally
Show it, please.
14. Batman can tag a dudewho reacts in picoseconds without himself being capable of reacting in picoseconds?
Ooh the logic
Wally doesn't always move at that speed, just like Superman doesn't always utilize his full strength, just like Surfer doesn't always go straight for Matter Manipulation, and just like a runner in the real world doesn't always move at the same speed all the time. Sometimes they walk, sometimes they sit down, sometimes they jog, sometimes they sprint.
It varies.
And thatwas officially the last time I'm going to explain that to you.
Savvy?
15. So wait let me get this straight
you want to legitimately claim simultaneously that Wally can react in picoseconds amd see time as frozen .....but when he faces Batman , Batman is fast enough to tag him ......but when I ask the question as to how this is possible without batman himself being capable of reacting in picoseconds. ...you answer with " blah blah blah" and " inane arguments"
wow
16. So once again, Wally can, by your logic
I would respond but I just made a vow to ignore your ignorance from this point on.
A) be tagged by Batman when not bloodlusted
B) react in nanoseconds when not bloodlusted
C) both these feats are simultaneously valid
What. An. Argument.
17. You do realise tha this flies in the face of " Wally was not bloodlusted, so 99% of his showings don't count except when I want them to logic" that you are dishing out I hope?
18. Lol you just used the word " consistency" in your argument. YOU.
lol
Mmmmkay.
19.Those respect threads are REALLY not delivering for you today are they? That's followed by slade tagging Wally, again.
Neat.
But I'm sure that doesn't count because Wally wasn't "bloodlusted"
Oh but im also sure the blitzing slade part counts, since you were kind enough to post it, even though wally was NOT ......bloodlusted?
Ooh the logic
Yup yup.
As for slade being faster Oliver flat out stated in Identity crisis that slade was faster where it mattered most
Mhmmm.
" like beating a blind man at I spy " eh?
No I won't say you are QUITE as bad. You atr making a decent effort though
Well thanks.
Keep it up. Don't forget to keep lovin them respect threads. Guy like you would literally have to stop posting without them
Totes man.
As an aside , the wonder woman feat was almost as hilarious as the time you posted a non canon fan translation of Gokus speed , while admitting yourself that you had no idea where it was from , in a desperate attempt to show why Goku was faster than the surfer
1). I don't believe that was in a Goku vs Surfer thread.
2). IIRC I was just checking to see if anyone knew where that scan came from.
3). I don't believe I was arguing with anyone.
4). I don't believe Surfer was involved in any way, shape, or form.
5). I think it's really quite flattering that you pay so close attention to my debating career, and I love that you're in such desperate need to not look foolish here that you're digging up anything you can to "discredit" me, if you want to even call it that. You're going to have to try better than that though. I'm sure during my time here I've had to have said something worse than that!
6). Goku would beat Surfer :)
Especially when we have stuff like Diana's immediate reaction to that "one shot punch" being " Stay down? Heh ...not likely"
What? She never says that.
More lies! Cool!
So what is it, exactly?
Is it a silver surfer thing? Or a bad debating thing?
It's a Gray Ghost thing I guess.
You obviously just bring out the best in me. <3
Hey! Jmarshmallow is one of the better debaters here. Between you and him, he's the one providing scans. You're not.
Well thank you so much mate! xD
However, there's no point reasoning with him lol...
He obviously has a very firm opinion of me, so there's really no point trying to convince him otherwise.
I truly do appreciate the compliment though my friend!
Okay...
Most of what you had to say to me appears to have been a series of hasty responses, not very well thought out at all. I will focus on the key statements you made:
What a wonderful start to a friendly debate. I can tell this will be fun.
Look. I can tell you are really sincere about all this, but the fact is, Surfer and Wally both have demonstrated they can move and react, engage in combat while moving through time. Question for you. How much time passes when a character travels time?
*wait for it, wait for it....*
Lol. That's s a ridiculous question, and given that time travel isn't possible, it's totally theoretical. However, the answer I'm assuming you want is that time doesn't pass when you're time traveling.
Allow me a follow up question.
Other than time travel, which isn't necessarily a power granted by speed rather than just being a regular power, what feats does Surfer have that match up to Wally having an entire fight in a picosecond?
*wait for it, wait for it....*
I think you deem it a ridiculous question because you know the answer, as you arrived at the proper conclusion: the answer I'm assuming you want is that time doesn't pass when you're traveling time. And this of course blows your pico second argument out the window as anything remotely approaching a time travel feat, particularly one where combat is engaged in.
So, now you're saying what is widely accepted around here as reaction feats are now travel feats? Strange, you even called them nano second reaction feats earlier.Did you have a change of heart or something? They are clearly reaction feats. And they are only the start of the Surfer's reaction speed.
Feats where he just travels from one point to another are travel speed feats.
Feats where he dodges/reflects/counters something are reactions speed feats.
Feats where he fights at a certain speed are combat speed feats.
Surfer really only has travel speed feats, and some reaction speed feats. He has noimpressive combat speed feats when compared to Wally.
About five seconds. That's if I talk slow. An entire planet of randomly scattered people over the entire planet.
Wally did it in a picosecond.
Disagree. If a character can move and react in a certain frame, then they can engage in combat in the same frame. And Wally's searching the crowd of 1/2 million for the two white martians engaging in telepathic shenanigans didn't cover the entire planet did it? We both know it didn't. Yet the two feats bear a remarkable resemblance to one another. There are some notable differences however. Wally only had to find the two martians that were happy about what was going on. This would've been evident by people who were actually facing the action. The Surfer had to search an entire planet, half of it shrouded in darkness, the other half in light. Some people on an elevator. Other's in bed asleep. Others at the mall. All positioned differently. That's 5 billion people (the population of earth at that time) randomly scattered all over the planet.
If he had used his cosmic awareness, he would never have had to leave. You are completely wrong on this point. The Surfer has sensed energy signatures, bio signatures, etc...from many light years away. He even traced Alicia through time before. He would never have left the spot if he had used his cosmic awareness. And why would Surfer try using his cosmic awareness to search a planet that Doctor Strange just said he searched in astral form, albeit unsuccessfully. Heck, he even says as much in his dialogue with the Surfer below. Then he tells everyone, that he is "going to make a thorough search of the planet. Please be patient." The context clearly indicates that the Surfer performed a physical search of the planet.
It's off panel, so what you're trying to impose as fact is just speculation.
He could have just as easily used Cosmic Awareness, and it would have made more logical sense if he did. You yourself just admitted that he sensed energy signatures from light years away.
So what logical sense does it make for him to make a physical search of the planet if his Cosmic Awareness is that effective?
So, with that being the case, you're just speculating, and it is nowhere near as impressive as Wally, considering Wally did the same exact feat in a shorter amount of time, and it actually happened on panel.
Your logic is faulty because it ignores the context of the feat. Doctor Strange just said he tried to perform the search in his astral form and came up with nothing, so why would the Surfer search for him using the similar method of cosmic awareness? Additionally, he specifically said on panel that he was going to make a thorough search of the entire planet. As well, the Surfer would never have had to leave the spot he was in had he been using cosmic senses. Had he used his cosmic senses, it would've looked like this:
Like most of what you've said so far, you are quite mistaken.
Wally's fastest feats are time travel, just like the Surfer's fastest feats are time travel.
Time Travel isn't a combat speed feat, and sometimes it's not even a speed feat. Countlesscharacters in fiction can travel through time without reaching a certain speed.
Professor Paradox from Ben 10. Are you suddenly saying he's FTL now just because he can time travel?
It's not considered a speed feat unless it's specifically noted as being accomplished via speed, and even if it is it's not a combat or reaction speed feat, it's a travel speed feat because it only consists of moving from one spot to another.
So...this is travel speed? He's not even on his board
No, that would be a reaction speed feat.
And I already noted that one. The problem with it is it only puts him in the nanosecond range, and all it means is he can react in a nanosecond, as it's at best a reaction speed feat.
Wally had an entire fight in a picosecond, which would mean his reaction speed based off that feat alone would be easily in the attosecond range. Which as you may or may not know is much, much faster than nanoseconds. Surfer get's blitzed.
I love how you move from Wally moving into the attosecond range from the pico second range, as if that is somehow more impressive than moving through time. Time travel is a frame in which a character thinks, moves and reacts, if they do it under their own speed. This is an indicator of the character's reaction speed as time is incorporated into concepts like distance and speed. Many seem to forget PC Superman and Barry Allen's races occurred while traveling time. Clearly they had no problem interacting with one another while travelling time, therefore they could engage in combat while moving through time just as Wally, the Surfer and Gladiator have demonstrated they can.
And you have ignored the time travel feats because you're hoping to pin your hopes of winning this argument on a 3 dimensional speed feat in the pico second range. Or the atto second range.
Or whatever.
Heh.
Neither Surfer or Gladiator get blitzed. They are on par with Wally in terms of reaction speed. I included a pretty little picture that might help you understand time travel a little better:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Clearly, PC Supes and Barry interacted while moving through time, so when Gladiator and Surfer demonstrate feats for engaging in combat while moving through time, why is it swept aside?
Answer? You don't have a credible one.
Next.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
And the thing people miss is he is aware he only has a nano second to react and finishes his thought before he reacts.
I've already explained that.
You're reaching. Big time. And nano is only the beginning of his speed. Like I said, he and Wally can travel time.
Explained this too.
That is the text book definition of a reaction feat. If he could only travel that fast and not react, he would never have even seen Thanos at that speed, much less been able to react.
Cosmic Awareness, much like Spidey-Sense, doesn't qualify as reaction speed. It's a separate power and serves as a sort of precognition.
So with that being said....
Try again.
Try again.
Your response above makes no sense whatsoever.
I understand how the Surfer's cosmic awareness works.
The Surfer battles red shift in the heart of a black hole where time comes to a stop. I figure that one will be one of the easiest for you to understand.
Time would come to a stop without being anywhere near picosecond combat speed.
You're gonna need something more specific than just "comes to a stop."
No. He isn't. They both move through time. That is to say, they both move through 4th dimensional space, where time no longer matters.
And I've explained several reasons why that is irrelevant. But because you seem to be having trouble, I'll lay it out for you again.
1). Time traveling isn't a speed feat unless it's specifically noted to be accomplished via speed, or else every time traveler in fiction is FTL.
2). Even if a character accomplishes it via speed, it's a travel speed feat, not a combat speed feat.
Not sure if you're just being difficult or if you just genuinely don't understand.
C). None of the above.
Your logic is just ridiculous, and I mean no offense by that. Truthfully I can't tell from your tone whether you're purposefully trying to be condescending or if you truly believe what you're saying has any semblance of a credible argument.
I'm going to assume the latter because you seem like an alright guy overall, it's just your arguments that are inane, not you yourself.
So how is it that a pico second would even pass when time is stopped? Are you even listening to yourself?
And my logic isn't ridiculous. You just don't understand time travel.
Explain to me how a pico second is faster that what Gladiator does below?
Gladiator engaged Thor in combat.
During stopped time. The time line incidentally, originally 30 years from when the Fantastic Four left earth and expanded to 100 years as the rift became larger. Yet Gladiator had not problem engaging in combat.
While moving through time.
Moving through time is faster than a simple pico second reaction feat.
Try again.
His best IMP is from JLA 3, which is actually the first instance of the IMP. He knocked a white martian cross continent. THAT is the best IMP feat by Wally.
It was a great IMP feat, sure. But the actual force behind it was equal to a white dwarf star.
Punch that Wally hit Thawne with = White Dwarf Star.
White Dwarf Star = IMP.
IMP = any punch when Flash has reached or surpassed light speed.
Easy peasy.
Period. Why Thawne, who has few feats to speak of regarding any durability, was not absolutely shattered in that feat is beyond me.
Since when does Thawne not have durability feats?
And on top of that, Prof. Zoom is protected by the Speed Force just like every other speedster.
So the reason why he wasn't "shattered" is because of his durability, and his Speed Force protection. However, they weren't enough to prevent him from getting one-shotted.
It wasn't equal to a white dwarf star. That was the point. The white dwarf star at best amounts to narrative hyperbole. It amounted to Zum being knocked cross continent. Sentry was knocked by Blue Marvel into orbit. Does that mean he strikes with the force of a white dwarf star? (amped) Hulk was knocked into orbit by Thor. Does that mean he strikes with the force of a white dwarf star? I think not.
Again, narrative hyperbole.
And produce one single feat that shows the IMP works over the speed of light. Just one. I dare you.
And those scans above of Garrick and Max Mercury (LOL)? Completely irrelevant. Since when have Max Mercury and Jay Garrick been planet busters?
Your arguments are very lacking.
And the speed force provides some protection, but nearly what you seem to be implying it does.
Try again.
@jmarshmallow I'm actually bored with this topic but I did notice one thing just scanning the reply's. Your scan about Wonder Woman fighting flash. You say she say's he could hit her like that hundreds of millions of times before she could react...Your exact words:
"It's more supposed to be him basically wrecking her and putting her on the ground with one hit, and her admitting that Flash could easily hit her like that hundreds of millions of times before she could react."
But the scan actually does not say that.
The scan is actually her speculating, and it doesn't say a thing about before she can react. Doesn't even say in a few seconds or a few minutes or even an hour, it says IN A NIGHT.
1. I personally prefer " not posting scans but giving specific issue numbers" over " out of context scans pulled from God knows which respect thread, with no idea about the context whatsoever"
I'm not asking for Issue Numbers, I want scans.
2. In comment 291 of this very thread I asked you on what basis you were implying Wally can one shot class 100s
You responded with " Wally one shots 9 times out of 10 when bloodlusted ( which is in itself hilarious considering there have not been 10 instances of Wally beating class 100s) "
In subsequent posts I keep asking you on what basis you are saying he one shots CLASS 100s, and you turn up with.....the Zum instance , two non class 100s and Diana NOTgetting one shotted by Wally
So you just seriously backtracked from all of that with " I never said Class 100s!"
Contradiction count: 1
What Jmarshmallow actually said: When did I say that either of them were Class 100s? You asked for him one shotting people, and I provided that.
What Gray Ghost says Jmarshmallow said: I never said Class 100s!
Blatant Lies Count: 1
3. No, it was supposed to be an instance of Wally KOing people with one blow, not " wrecking" or speculation , straight up KO, certainly not Diana winning the fight
These are your exact words from comment 339 " Thats 4 instances of him taking down people with a SINGLE BLOW"
Contradiction count: 2
Did you not see her kneeling on the ground completely wrecked after just onehit? And then admitting that Wally could do that same hit hundreds of millions of times?
We must have been looking at different scans.
Ignorance Count: 1
4. But your respect thread certainly did not turn up with the part where Diana tags him and puts him down. Reading the issue doesn't sound like a bad idea now, does it?
As it is, thats not him one shotting anyone. Thats him losing to someone who literally shrugged off his bloodlusted punch with a " heh"
Gray Ghost's argument: Everything you post is from respect threads, you have no idea what you're posting, you're so dumb.
Gray Ghost hasn't posted a single scan up to this point in the argument.
Hypocrisy Count: 1
5. " obviously he wasn't at a 100%"
You just went from " bloodlusted wally one shots Diana to giving excuses for why he lost
Wow
What Gray Ghost thinks Jmarshmallow's argument is: You just went from "Bloodlusted wally one shots Diana" to giving excuses for why he lost
What Jmarshmallow's argument actually is: Wally was clearly affected by the Strain in a negative way, as Diana herself noted that he usually is able to run without leaving scorch marks, but failed to do so in their encounter. And on top of that, Wally could have hit her "hundreds of millions of times," noted by Diana herself, but chose not to do so. So even if his morals were looser than they usually were, he was clearly not completely all there. He could have easily pounded her to oblivion, and Diana herself notes. And one punch from him, even affected by the Strain which as mentioned had a negative effect on Wally in a moral, mental, and physical sense but didn't completely bloodlust him, was able to put Diana on her knees. Did it knock her out? No. But again, that wasn't Wally operating at full capacity, and it still packed an extremely powerful wallop.
Ignorance Count: 2
Speculating about his condition, now eh? You truly have no idea what was happening in the issue do you? Wally had the starro strain taking over his body
Contradiction count: 3
Clearly you know exactly which comics I've read and which ones you haven't.
Ignorance Count: 3
6. Talking about the one instance again ? Are we seriously going to revert now to the earlier pattern of " When else has he one shotted a class 100?" Followed by you posting out of context scans of him beating non class 100s , sometimes not even with an IMP and ......losing to actual class 100s?
Gray Ghost's argument: One scan of Wally one-shotting a White Martian who was specifically noted to have Superman Class durability isn't enough to prove he can one-shot characters with Superman Class durability. And don't count the multiple instances where it's stated his punch hits like a White Dwarf Star, because the scans are obviously lying.
Gray Ghost hasn't posted a single feat for Surfer nor Gladiator's durability.
Hypocrisy Count: 2.
7. Martian Manhunter is significantly above regular white Martians to the point of one shotting 6 of them at the same time as far as that goes
1). MMH never one shot 6 at a time. IIRC it was 3.
2). Hyperclan White Martians >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fodder White Martians.
here's the scan
http://imgur.com/a/FfbSr
Lol.
Are. You. Kidding. Me.
It literally says in the TITLE OF THE SITE that MMH was fighting Barry.
You've been whining this entire time, claiming that I just "pull scans from respect threads," and then for the VERY FIRSTscan you actually provide in this ENTIRE debate, it's completely and utterly pointless
You do realize we're arguing about Wally, right?
Any validity that you still retained was lost in that point.
I think that deserves points for both Ignorance and Hypocrisy.
Ignorance Count: 4
Hypocrisy Count: 3
7.Two incorrect instances, when in one Diana won.....?
Contradiction count: 4
Gray Ghost's argument: Diana won.
Diana's argument: Wally could hit me hundreds of millions of time and I can't do anything about it because he's a complete blur.
Ignorance Count: 5
8. The Red King stuff Is from JLA classified . Red King seemingly kills most of the league. Wally goes bsrserk and tries to kill him, achieves nothing
Superboy Prime is from the Sinestro Corps war special. Wally and Jay punch him, fail to do anything. Clark punches him, nearly ends the battle
im sure " googling the image I want" will help you here
Gray Ghost's entire argument during this entire debate: You need to post more scans, because the ones you've posted aren't enough.
*Jmarshmallow requests Gray Ghost for scans*
Gray Ghost's response: Get them yourself.
Hypocrisy Count: 4
9. When repeatedly asked throughout the thread as to why Batman can tag him, you note its because hes not bloodlusted
the implication being, all of Wallys feats minus 4 or 5 are by this logic rendered meaningless
now you deny it
contradiction count:5
What Gray Ghost either is either blatantly ignoring or truly not capable of understanding: Wally's speed varies, just like any other normal person's speed varies. Whilst in character, he usually operates at slower speeds thus allowing slower people to tag him. Just like most of the time, normal people tend to walk from place to place instead of running.
However, sometimes while in character, Wally speeds up for certain situations, just like a normal person can speed up whenever they feel like it's necessary. That means that it VARIES whether or not he's running fast or slow while in character, just like it VARIES when a normal person chooses to walk or run in any given situation.
However, when he's fully bloodlusted, he's not holding back at ALL and thus is ALWAYS utilizing his full speed, just like a normal person would be utilizing their full speed if they were chasing someone.
Savvy?
Ignorance Count: 6
10. When faced with the consequences of your own logic of " every feat counts no matter how stupid" when applied to Batman you flat out deny it before sarcastically talking about Batgod
Contradiction count: 6
What Gray Ghost claims he did: I made you face the consequences of your own logic.
What Gray Ghost actually said: I mean Batman has hacked Doomsday clones who semd supes flying with their punches to pieces with a battle axe after all. Maybe hes a class 100 after all, by your logic
How Jmarshmallow responded:
He probably is.
All hail Batgod.
I thought that was an appropriate response. Answer sarcasm with sarcasm. What do you want me to do, argue with you about a character that isn't even involved in this battle?
Okay, guess we'll go super off-topic for a while.
So, your argument for this debate seems to revolve around consistency, and what you define as consistency is that you need a boatload of feats in order to be consistent.
Well, so far we already have two instances of Batman that, by your own admittance, would put him as a Class 100. Assuming that two isn't enough for you to consider something "consistent" because you seem to believe that you need 500 bajillion showings in order to be consistent, I'll provide some more:
What's that you say, five isn't enough? Well, alright then slugger.
So lets see...that's 3 more showings, plus the five I posted above, added to the 2 that we mentioned above....
That's 10 showings that would put Batman as a Class 100. So, since you agreed everything is explained by consistency, then that would mean that consistently Batman is a Class 100.
Is that the answer you wanted?
So, now we're at an impasse. Clearly since consistency is defined by having lots of feats according to you, then that would mean that Batman is a Class 100 since he now has at least 10 feats that would put him at a Class 100.
Now you could (and I'm sure you will) argue "Jmarshmallow, you're so stupid and contradicting, 10 scans over an entire career of comics isn't consistent. You're gonna need more than that."
Well now, that could work, but there would be a small problem that arises from it:
You would need to then provide eleven feats (because 10 obviously isn't enough, amirite?) that would prove Surfer and Gladiator's speed, strength, and durability is above Wally and Supes.
You can handle that, right? I mean I know how good you are at providing evidence.
Hypocrisy Count: 5
Ignorance Count: 7
12. Ignoring basic logic now are we?
So Wally can crack a multiversal armour.....without himself being multiversal?
Good grief
Yes, because a being that was given powers from a galactic planet eater is totally logical.
Hypocrisy Count: 6
Oh, and he didn't just "crack" it. He busted it.
13. You just went from" Wally one shots class 100s" in comment 294( telling me to "get over it" when questioned) to claiming you never claimed Wally can one shot class 100s
Contradiction count:8
What Gray Ghost said in his post prior to this one: So Wally can outperform the entire PC universe and beat up the COIE Anti Monitor but he can't beat the Living Tribunal when you yourself note stuff like "Wally can KO anyone if hes bloodlusted/ IMPing"
How Gray Ghost says Jmarshmallow responded to this comment: "I never claimed Wally can one shot class 100s"
How Jmarshmallow actually responded: "That's not at all my argument. In fact, I'm not even stating that he can one-shot Surfer. However, he has been shown to dish out one-shot punches to Superman level characters. There is absolutely no reason why continuous IMPs that hit like White Dwarf Stars can't take down Surfer."
Blatant Lies Count: 2
14. LT is " omniversal?" Based on what?
Being the second most powerful character in Marvel, besides I guess Protege and Scathan if you want to count them.
And consideration you flat out noted " wally can bring down anybody with IMPs", how do you reconcile that with this latest statement?
Jmarshmallow never once said throughout this entire debate that Wally can bring down anybody with IMPs.
Blatant Lies Count: 3
Based on your logic, if Wally can IMP Anti Monitor despite every other feat contradicting this, what exactly do you base him not beating LT on?
What Gray Ghost keeps saying Jmarshmallow said: Wally beat Anti-Monitor, and Anti-Monitor is Multiversal, so Wally must be Multiversal.
What Jmarshmallow has been repeatedly saying this entire debate: Wally didn't actually beat the Anti-Monitor, he just busted his armor. And it took hundreds of IMPs for him to do that, and then Anti-Monitor came back in his pure Energy Form completely unfazed.
Blatant Lies Count: 4
Its the still the same Infinite mass punch, thousands of times over. And even assuming LT is "omniversal", why exactly would Wally struggle to put him down considering he beat a multiversal beinh so easily?
Gray Ghost continues to ignore what I've been saying.
Ignorance Count: 8
15. Ha seriously?
"Wally sees the world as frozen but slower guys tag him and when that guys name is Batman im gonna count it, when its say surfer, im not "
oh boy. How do you reconcile THIS latest bit of garbage to Diana beating him ?
Let me guess. " it counts when diana does it....but for some reason in this battle, Surfer ain't pulling it off"
Contradiction count: 10
Gray Ghost continues to ignore what Jmarshmallow is saying, lies that he said things that he didn't, and repeats previous garbage that's already been discussed.
Blatant Lies Count: 5
Ignorance Count: 9
15. Batman has also tagged Barry Allen and Bart Allen among other speedsters. Just saying
Cool.
16. So wait....." the times Wally shows superspeed when non bloodlusted totally count while at the same time him being tagged by joe humans also count"
Explained countless times.
Allow me to repeat myself in case you missed it:
"Wally's speed varies, just like any other normal person's speed varies. Whilst in character, he usually operates at slower speeds thus allowing slower people to tag him. Just like most of the time, normal people tend to walk from place to place instead of running.
However, sometimes while in character, Wally speeds up for certain situations, just like a normal person can speed up whenever they feel like it's necessary. That means that it VARIES whether or not he's running fast or slow while in character, just like it VARIES when a normal person chooses to walk or run in any given situation.
However, when he's fully bloodlusted, he's not holding back at ALL and thus is ALWAYS utilizing his full speed, just like a normal person would be utilizing their full speed if they were chasing someone."
I'm not going to add any points here, I don't think it's fair to count the same ignorance against you twice.
oh the logic. And who decides which of these feats count? So if I were to make a Nightwing vs non bloodlusted Wally thread now, would you vote for Nightwing or not on the basis of this logic?
Or will we have yet another contradiction?
Do you believe Batman/ NW etc beat a non bloodlusted Wally yes or no?
On the battle forum, I would support Wally due to vastly superior feats.
However, fights in comics have context, fights on the Battle Forum don't.
17. But I sure can use feats of Diana and Jonn, those " at best lightspeeders" tagging Wally just fine when bloodlusted, can't I ?
*waiting on scans of Jonn or Diana tagging a fully functional bloodlusted Wally*
Based on this logic, why if any reason do surfer and glads not one shot?
They're not fast enough, that's why.
And " because he wasn't bloodlusted" is a hilarious tactic to handwave hundreds of issues as it is
Question that I'm sure Gray Ghost will ignore: Does Surfer use Matter Manipulation in every single fight he's in? Because if he doesn't, then obviously him being able to use it is inconsistent.
*waits for you to ignore your logic being thrown back at you*
19. Its in the history of DCU backup to 52, the series that followed infinite crisis
I don't recall the exact issue which showed the fight
Or you could yknow just check Crisis
Jmarshmallow asks Gray Ghost for scans.
Gray Ghost skirts around it.
Hypocrisy Count: 7
Heck when do you feel Spectre fought a non armoured AM? Scans please
Gray Ghost asks Jmarshmallow for scans.
Jmarshmallow obliges.
Just because of the fact of how hypocritical it was not providing scans and then asking me for them, another point.
Hypocrisy Count: 8
And its not my job to pony up scans if you haven't actually read the comics.
.....are you serious? That's actually exactly your job. That's how debates work. You make a claim, and then you back it up with evidence.
Truthfully I don't care one lick whether you believe I read the comics or not. That doesn't change the fact that you made a claim, and are unable to back up those claims with anything resembling evidence.
Yet again proving your hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy Count: 9
find them yourself , since you are so adept at finding fights of wally getting beaten while bloodlusted , apparently
*applauds*
Ignorance Count: 10
20. Supermans feat is from Final Crisis: Superman Beyond part 1
Duh. Read the issue. Or check a respect thread,as is your wont
Not my job to read you issues
It's your job to provide evidence.
Or, it would be, if you actually knew how to have a proper debate.
Ignorance Count: 11
21. Oh and how fast was he moving when Batman tagged him? Supersonic? Hypersonic? Superluminal?
And who decides? You?
Truthfully I don't know how fast he was going. However, clearly he wasn't going Superluminal, unless you actually believe Batman is FTL.
Use logic.
22. Thats hilarious. You just ignored PC Supes' feats with a " Mmmh"
Well done
Im not even sure this counts as a contradiction so much as a flat out refusal to actually attempt to debate logically
You mean that feat you didn't post when I specifically asked for it?
Hypocrisy Count: 10
23. So why did Jonn and Diana tag a bloodlusted flash?
Contradiction count: 11
Jmarshmallow already explained the Diana instance in full depth above, while Gray Ghost has refused to post the J'onn instance.
Ignorance Count: 12
24. I actually know what context is. The difference being im not following your logic of " every feat counts ever"
What Gray Ghost says Jmarshmallow's logic is: Every feat counts ever.
What Jmarshmallow's actual logic is: Every feat should be taken into consideration, and looked at from an unbiased viewpoint. The more consistent it is with the character, the more valid it is.
Blatant Lie Count: 6
By that logic, whatever be the circumstances Diana tagging Wally and Zoom means she is as fast as them, nevermind how cocky zoom was , this dude blocks a 1000 hits from Wally without looking . And Diana has flat out beaten a bloodusted wally
Ignoring this means you are contradicting your own logic. ...again
contradiction count: 12
Gray Ghost once again ignores the importance of context.
Ignorance Count: 13
25.. 3 " Nopes" ignoring your own logic as applied to slade
contradiction count: 15
Gray Ghost continues to ignore all the times Jmarshmallow has already addressed this point, and pretends as if Jmarshmallow skipped over it.
Hypocrisy Count: 11
If Wally doesn't have feats where God himself asks him to stop speeding/ crossing an infinite universe , not that exact thing maybe but anything on that scale at all, means he is slower than supes by some distance
1). That feat isn't quantifiable. Do you know how fast he was actually going?
2). That's not a combat speed feat.
3). I'm not sure why you're arguing for Supes when he's on Wally's team.
27.two " applauds ignorance" s when your flawed / out of context scans are pointed out
*applauds ignorance*
and lets see on the 3 threads ive seen you in
Let's, shall we?
A) you had no idea about Batman Black and white being non canon
1). There's no proof it's non-canon. It's all a play, yes. But it's not necessarily non-canon unless you have proof of that, which I'm sure you won't provide.
2). If it was non-canon, how would me not knowing have any indication on my overall knowledge of comics? It's not like there's a big sticker on the side of the comic that says "NON-CANON."
B) posted scans you yourself admitted you had no idea where they were from in the goku thread
Exactly, I admitted I didn't know where they were from, so I'm not sure why you consider that as bad either. It's not like I claimed they were legitimate, immediately when asked I admitted I didn't know where they're from and asked if Nickzambuto did. Sorry for not knowing something, I guess?
C) posted scans of Diana beating Wally as.....Wallly one shotting class 100s?
Addressed this in full.
So really it should be me applauding your ignorance
*appluads ignorance*
Gray Ghost's arguments have no real substance, so he continues to attempt to discredit Jmarshmallow and attack him personally as if that somehow would make him any more right. Not to even mention that his attempts are just lame.
Ad hominem Count: At this point I've lost count, but it's probably reasonable to assume it's..
28. You flat out implied that both Zoom arcs were time travel related
"Flat out implied."
Makes sense.
Which is it, did I imply it or did I actually flat out say it?
Because if it's the former, then you get an Ignorance Point. If it's the latter, then it's a Hypocrisy Point.
Aw heck, Points for both!
Ignorance Count: 14
Hypocrisy Count: 12
29. So.....when we have stuff posted by yourself about how Wally sees the world in slow motion even when hes not trying. ..... now you are trying to say " sometimes they jog, sometimes they sprint ...hence they can be tagged"
While the audacity to contradict yourself in the same post must be appluaded, you truly do need to just sit back and reread this thread just once, to truly understand just how piss poor an argument you are making
oh and contradiction count: 17
Gray Ghost ignores the fact that Wally sees the world in slow motion subconsciously when a bullet was being fired at him, so him controlling his own speed isn't a contradiction.
Ignorance Count: 15
28. After this we have 5 " mmms" and " oks"
When once agin faced with the prospect of ignoring your own logic
Contradiction coun.....yknow what ? This is so childish im going to just ignore those statements
Cheers!
29. It was I belive in a " who can beat surfer "thread
And no you flat out posted the scan, claimed it to be genuine before getting thumped in the subsequent debate with me, leaving and responding later to another poster witj " I dunno where its from but I found it online so its cool"
Contradiction count: 18
That's not at all how it went.
You were abusing the same ridiculous arguments that you're using right now, wanking Surfer like usual. Then you asked for feats for them "laughing at light speed anything," despite the fact that Goku's been dodging Solar Flare's (light) since he was a kid.
I then provided a scan, and in that same post said I was done debating with you because of your rubbish arguments.
Very soon after, an actual credible debater asked where the scan was from and I said that I found it and did some research on it, and its origin is up for debate.
Here's exactly what Jmarshmallow said:
What the heck? I've never seen that before, is that an official translation? If so Superman can go F@#$ himself.
I dunno actually lol. I saw someone post in on here, and I did some research on it.
Some people claim it's just an edited scan, while others say it's an official Viz Media translation.
I don't know which is true though..
Never once claimed that it was legitimate.
So, with that being said:
Blatant Lie Count: 7
30. Diana absolutely did say that. Read the issue
Scans, please.
*Jmarshmallow waits for Gray Ghost to ignore his request for scans yet again, because apparently it's "not his job to pony up scans." That's an exact quote, by the way.*
So in conclusion in response to my 20 odd questions( split up here) you came up with 19 contradictions , sometimes managing to contradict the earlier contradictions themsleves and responding to what little you could with " where are the scans which I somehow can google for Goku, Batman and Wally but not when they adversely affect my position"
So 19 contradictions then. Bravo. Im not sure even I have thrashed anyone quite so comprehensively
Well, funny thing you mentioned that actually.
Because it turns out your high score is even better!
We have 7 Counts of Blatantly Lying.
12 Counts of Exposed Hypocrisy.
And 15Counts of Ignorance.
So, let's add that up and we have....
Would you look at that?
THIRTY-FOUR counts of poor debating.
And if I add in all the Ad Hominem, then we have Over 9,034 counts!
So really, that's a new record! You should be very proud!
I'd give you a medal or something, but....well, I'm sure the Title is plenty!
I guess we did manage something from all of this, the long unanswered questiom of " exactly how many times can I guy shoot himself in the foot", appears to finally havw been answered
Wait, but you kept saying I shoot myself in the foot?....
Whelp, make it 13 Counts of Hypocrisy.
And oh one last thing. If you are going to be posting on a comic debate site.....the least you can do is read SOME comics. Respect threads can only get you so far
Thanks for the tip!
Savvy?
Savvy!
Now my question for you...
Wally and Supes beats Surfer and Gladiator.
P.S. If the third person confuses you, it's so that anybody who might be reading this can more easily see what I'm having to deal with here. I figured third person would be a lot clearer.
For example, @thebourneposter wanted to see my response, amirite?
@blackstaroblivion: Honestly, I would respond to your post, but you didn't provide any actual new substance to any of my points, you basically just rehashed what I've already addressed. I wouldn't mind it if it was so late right now, Plus I just made an extremely long post in reply to Gray Ghost that basically responds to any points you made.
So I suppose that could qualify as my response to you as well.
@jmarshmallow I'm actually bored with this topic but I did notice one thing just scanning the reply's. Your scan about Wonder Woman fighting flash. You say she say's he could hit her like that hundreds of millions of times before she could react...Your exact words:
"It's more supposed to be him basically wrecking her and putting her on the ground with one hit, and her admitting that Flash could easily hit her like that hundreds of millions of times before she could react."
But the scan actually does not say that.
The scan is actually her speculating, and it doesn't say a thing about before she can react. Doesn't even say in a few seconds or a few minutes or even an hour, it says IN A NIGHT.
Yeah I'll admit I misworded, however the point is still the same.
She admits Flash is much, much faster than her, and if he wanted to he could hit her hundreds of millions of times. The fact that she calls him an "indistinct blur" means that she actually did admit she really can't react to him.
@jmarshmallow on a completely unrelated topic...I'm trying to find a specific scan and am not having much luck. Maybe you can help me out. The scan shows Lex Luthor walking through a Jungle and talking about ways to hurt Superman. He mentions Kryptonite, Brute Force, Magic, and Chi(maybe not in that order).
Well I'd be happy to try mate!
Would you happen to know if it was Pre Crisis, Post Crisis, or New52?
I'm actually not positive. I'm pretty sure it was not New52 though. And I remember seeing it in some thread on here but I do not remember which thread it was.
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but are you referring to this?
Honestly, I would respond to your post, but you didn't provide any actual new substance to any of my points, you basically just rehashed what I've already addressed. I wouldn't mind it if it was so late right now, Plus I just made an extremely long post in reply to Gray Ghost that basically responds to any points you made.
So I suppose that could qualify as my response to you as well.
Unfortunately for you, your unintelligible response to Gray Ghost really didn't cover any of the points I brought up.
More than likely, you've chosen the path of least resistance because you really don't have a credible response to any of my questions. And Superman has no business in a fight he isn't even in the same speed tier as the rest.
Good luck with the rest of your arguments to Gray Ghost, who incidentally, has been ripping you to shreds throughout this entire discussion.
sure he has. @jmarshmallow just destroyed him but I am not surprised you would say otherwise. How do you sleep with those Glasses on?
But I'm confused, glasses on lol?
Honestly, I would respond to your post, but you didn't provide any actual new substance to any of my points, you basically just rehashed what I've already addressed. I wouldn't mind it if it was so late right now, Plus I just made an extremely long post in reply to Gray Ghost that basically responds to any points you made.
So I suppose that could qualify as my response to you as well.
Unfortunately for you, your unintelligible response to Gray Ghost really didn't cover any of the points I brought up.
More than likely, you've chosen the path of least resistance because you really don't have a credible response to any of my questions. And Superman has no business in a fight he isn't even in the same speed tier as the rest.
Good luck with the rest of your arguments to Gray Ghost, who incidentally, has been ripping you to shreds throughout this entire discussion.
sure he has. @jmarshmallow just destroyed him but I am not surprised you would say otherwise. How do you sleep with those Glasses on?
But I'm confused, glasses on lol?
Fanboy Glasses, that which skews fanboys perception to what they want to see and not what really there. Kinda like Nostalgia glasses.
The rules all but nullifies all of Silver Silvers strengths to have it a lopsided battle in favor of team two (DC Team). I guess the DC Fanboys need something to puff their chest out. We know that all of DC characters are all too powerful that it is almost comical. Yes, yes, DC has the power characters blah blah but guess what? I bet you were in line to watch the Marvel Characters in the big screen right? DC Fanboys can dine in the glory of Comic Vine battles while Marvel dominates the Feature Film screen.
Cheers!
This influx of new people....
Considering that I used very clear and concise grammar, the only reason it would be hard to understand is if your knowledge of the English language was lacking. So here you clearly admit that you understood my arguments.
I understand you are talking in circles and trying to pretend that you know what you’re talking about when anyone on these forums that has read more than two comic books and reads one of your posts realizes your arguments have little to no merit at all.
Not only do you not have the first clue about the Surfer or Gladiator, you evidently haven’t read much Flash either.
And yet just one sentence prior you were incredibly firm in your belief "unintelligible," which as I've defined means impossible to understand, fits the description of my arguments.
Yes. Basically, your arguments are ridiculous.
So, here's a perfect example of what you and Gray Ghost have been during the entire duration of this debate: Saying one thing, me proving the hypocrisy and ignorance of your posts, and then you being incapable of admitting that you're wrong.
Not really. It’s been you insisting that Wally has a pico second combat feat which tops anything the Surfer has done. You asked me to present a feat from the Surfer that tops it. I did. You then said it was inadmissible because it had to do with time travel. I also asked you previously how much time elapses when a character moves through time. Instead of giving a straight answer, you asked another in a long line of nebulous questions which really didn’t have anything to do with anything.
Not sure why I'm continuing after just blatantly making it known that you are so biased and prejudiced you can't even admit your wording is wrong. But I suppose I will. Moving on. Please, elaborate. Because let's review our main argument here and its respective scans.
You’re continuing because you think you know something when in reality you know nada. Your pride has taken over when in reality you should not have even entered this conversation.
And there’s no bias on my part. The only bias appears to be yours. You have no argument. No relevant scans.
And you’re on a comic book web site trying to pretend you know something when all you’ve done throughout this entire thread is spout a lot of nonsense.
Moving on.
Flash's ability to hurt Surfer.
Would be a zero.
Next.
Busting Anti-Monitor armor. Obviously, certain people want to call this PIS.
Correct.
Utter PIS.
Proceed.
While in my personal opinion claiming every feat you don't like is PIS seems like a weak form of debating, I suppose there's no way to argue againstPIS.
But there is.
It begins with someone actually knowing what a character has consistently demonstrated they are capable of and not capable of within the scope of their respective continuity, something you evidently were not aware of.
Continue please.
So while this feat would most definitely mean he could hurt Surfer after enough hits, there's no way to argue against personal opinion, which is what PIS is since it's a made-up concept. Moving on.
How does Wally vibrating through the Anti-Monitor (again, utter baloney) translate into Wally hurting the Surfer? Doesn’t Wally have some limitations to his ability to vibrate through objects?
So let me rephrase my last question so everyone (including you) understands my question clearly:
Does Wally have any limits on his vibratory powers? If so, what are they?
Moving on.
One-shotting Zum. Wally one-shotted a character that was specifically noted to have Superman Class durability.
Really? White Martians are that tough, eh?
Let’s examine this statement:
Uh huh. Let's put Kyle's words to the test shall we?
Okay. Well, just how much of Superman's powers do they have?
Curious, mermaid man, is this what you meant by superman like in power level? Cause I aint seein' it. I mean, if Jonn (or bloodlusted, known affectionately by "Fernus"), who admittedly is around Superman's level of power, how much relevance do you think Kyle and Bruce's statements really have here, particularly as we already know White Martians have zero morals and are always bloodlusted?
Therefore, Wally hurt who exactly? Oh, right. Zum.
Moving on.
Even if you would argue that Surfer's durability is superior (which is of course arguable, but let's not get into that),
Oh, but let’s.
Prove to me that Wally’s durability is anywhere near what the Surfer’s is or Gladiator’s.
Go ahead.
I dare you.
I’ll be waiting right here.
Moving on.
then you'd have to at least admit that multiple hits that can one-shot Superman Class characters would eventuallytake down Surfer.
That’s if we operated under your erroneous assumption that white martians have consistently demonstrated, by feats, that they really are on Superman’s level.
Which clearly they are not.
Next.
That's a pretty simple argument.
How sad that you appear to be basing your whole A B C logic around the comment of Kyle Rayner made in JLA 2, that was later debunked by what actually happens to white martians when confronted by characters on their level of power.
Simple argument. Well that much is for sure.
Moving on.
Not seeing how it is in any way is "evasive, biased, and not supported by scans." Moving on.
Your responses are exactly that.
Evasive, biased and not supported by scans. And when you do submit scans, you make out of context statements about them.
Moving on.
White Dwarf Star. It's made very clear that Wally hits with the force of a White Dwarf Star.
Oh, right yeah. Another one of those statements made in a comic that really are not supported by any relavant feats whatsoever. Kinda like that white martians are on Superman’s level of power as the scans above clearly indicate (sarcasm at no charge!).
There's really no way to argue this if you disagree with it, because you'd be arguing with a clear statement.
Yeah. A statement not supported by feats. But do, go on….
If you have beef with it, take it up with the writers, not me.
Writer’s say lots of things. Not all writer’s are known for their respect for continuity either.
*coughs, Jeph Loeb*
Believing anything other than what was clearly stated would be bias on your part, not mine.
Believing anything other than what is clearly stated would be the result of someone actually researching what was said by actually looking for supporting information on the subject, not just picking a few words off a page in a comic and running with it.
My suggestion is learn to actually read what the comic is saying and then stop making out of context statements.
So, with that being the case, multiple hits with the force of a White Dwarf Star is most definitely enough to take down Surfer. Moving on.
White dwarf star = knock out of Eobard Thawne, who has zero feats for weathering extended physical attacks from class 100s. Wow.
I’m really….
Underwhelmed.
Proceed.
So I'm not seeing any evasiveness, bias, or inability to provide related scans.
Right. Part of bias has to do with a person’s inability to see they are clearly biased.
Which you are.
Next.
However, while I have provided evidence for my side, what evidence have you provided that Surfer can tag Wally?
Surfer can time travel, so clearly he can fight in picoseconds.
....and that's it.
You almost got it right. Surfer and Gladiator can move through time, so someone moving in a pico second would appear to moving in slow motion to him.
You almost got it though. Hey, we live in a time where mediocrity is rewarded…give yourself a pat on the back!
Which I've thoroughly debunked, unless you're of the opinion that suddenly Professor Paradox from Ben 10 is FTL?
I don’t know. Does Professor Paradox from Ben 10 travel time on sheer speed alone?
Moving on.
Or Doc Brown from Back To the Future invented an FTL car, since it traveled in time. Since, you know, according to your logic Time Traveling is apparently an automatic FTL feat. I could have sworn that the DeLorean went 88 mph though....
But obviously I'm wrong. Totally FTL. /sarcasm
I’m glad you added the disclaimer at the end that you were being sarcastic. Honestly, I couldn’t tell the difference between your previous statements and this one because they all sound so silly to me.
In terms of time travel, there are several ways characters travel time in comics.
When you can tell me how Gladiator, the Surfer and Wally travel time, then we’ll talk, because honestly, I’m beginning to think you don’t really know.
Next.
No, you have not. I'm going to ask one more time in case you're not getting it.
PLEASE. PROVIDE. ME. A. COMBAT. SPEED. FEAT. THAT. SPECIFICALLY. NOTES. HOW. FAST. SURFER. IS.
Oh look. Someone on the internet is trying to caps lock me to death.
I’ve already provided it and it clearly has gone over the top of your head.
Question for you: what speed does a character have to be moving at in order to travel time? Give me a straight answer if you can. Anything other than a serious, direct response tells me you either don’t know, or you are being evasive.
Your answer please.
No Time Traveling. No baloney of fighting in some super special dimension where time doesn't exist.
Since when do you dictate the parameters of admissible comic book feats? I can’t help it if the feat went completely over your head, but that’s your problem, not mine. And you just answered your own question. Scrier and the Surfer traveled dimensional space into the timeless realm of the Other and engaged in combat with them.
What makes you think that any character can just enter the 4th dimension without some power to do so, or that they have not already otherwise been empowered to do by others?
An actual, quantifiable combat speed feat putting him in the picosecond range.
Show me a feat of Wally engaging in combat during stopped time, or while otherwise traveling time, which otherwise makes pico second reaction feats laughable.
Incidentally, time travel/time stop trumps said pico second feat.
Moving on.
Obviously, you consistently skirting around providing such a feat proves that Surfer doesn't have on.
Your failure to understand the very simple feats I presented is really not my problem. You should pick up a Silver Surfer comic and actually read one. You might learn something.
Matter of fact, you may want to pick up an issue of Flash and read it while you’re at it.
Mysterious? There's nothing "mysterious" about it.
I've provided it multiple times in this thread.
It's one thing to be wrong, it's another entirely to blatantly ignore feats.
Never said it was?=.
Moving in a timeless realm isn't fast.
Since time doesn't exist in that realm, it's not an actual speed feat. He could have been moving at 100 mph.
Moving in a timeless realm may or may not be fast depending on how the time traveler gets there. Thor has done it several times using Mjolnir and Doctor Strange has done it by magic as has Mephisto and others. Higher cosmic entities move through time because often characters on that level of power transcend time itself. Galactus, the Watcher and celestials come to mind.
How do Wally, Gladiator and the Surfer do it?
Do you actually have any evidence that makes that feat even the slightest bit quantifiable?
Oh, and while I'm at it, post the instance in question as well.
Savvy?
I have plenty of evidence that makes Gladiator and the Surfer's time travel feats very quantifiable. This far you've pinned your hopes of having some semblance of an argument on a pico second reaction feat by Wally, a PIS feat against the Anti Monitor...which has absolutely no relevance here as Wally can't vibrate through the Surfer any way and white martians.
Wow. Impressive.
EDIT:
Almost forgot. I noticed your incorrect remarks regarding the Wonder Woman/Wally West fight from JLA Classified 17.
Here is your back and forth with @thegrayghost:
he " consistently" one shots?
When Bloodlusted, yes.
Seriously? Thats pretty much the reason we are having this debate. I would like to see some of these " consistent" examples of yours
Zum. Thawne. Max Mercury. Wonder Woman.
And an instance of Diana beating Wally is supposed to be him one shotting her?
It's more supposed to be him basically wrecking her and putting her on the ground with one hit, and her admitting that Flash could easily hit her like that hundreds of millions of times before she could react.
Presumably your respect thread failed to follow up with the rest of the fight then?
I could have shown the part prior where WW was able to tag Flash, the hit have absolutely no effect, and then Flash puts the whooping on her. But I didn't think that was necessary.
. Wally wrecked Diana's face.
. Obviously he wasn't at 100%, as Wonder Woman herself noted that Flash could wreck her hundred of millions of times.
Let's examine that a bit:
We've already discussed Zum above. Max Mercury? You're joking right?
Here's the fight with Wonder Woman:
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So let's be clear at this point. Diana wonders how many times he can hit her in a night. Now given that Dianas top feat has her taking a nuclear missile, the above scans mileage may vary.
Moving on.
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And finally, in JLA Classified we have a compassionate Diana helping Wally out of the control of Starro:
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So is this what you were shooting for when you said "one shot"? Diana sticking out her arm, Wally running into it and him spinning off out of control?
Just curious.
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