Gladiator and Silver Surfer vs Superman and Flash

@all_mighty_beyonder:

JLA weakened the armor enough for Wally to shatter it. that's the context you're failing to grasp. If Wally faced AM alone from the begining he wouldn't even scratch him.

The JLA only made one hole, and it was in the middle of his chest.

Wally made holes all over his body with ease.

They didn't weaken his kneecaps, for example, and yet Wally was able to bust through them with ease.

you'll need a better feat where Wally have all the credits for, to prove your point.

That one is plenty.

Besides, if Wally really can break AM armor it would have saved him a lot of trouble against a lot of foes, like white martians, Cosmic gamblers...etc or are you saying those foes are more powerful than Coie Anti-Monitor? nah i don't think so. so next time bring up legitimate feat that belongs only to Wally, instead of a feat that belongs to all pre crisis JLA

1). Wally usually holds back.

2). Even when holding back, Wally can stomp White Martians.

3). I've already explained why the AM feat is impressive, even though I shouldn't have to considering busting the armor of someone who is Multiversal most definitely allows Wally to hurt Surfer.

oh good good, you know Surfer's feats, you saved me the trouble of bringing the scans (not that i can't bring them) so you admit Surfer has better than nanosecond reaction, which is precisely FTL reflex.

Of course I know Surfer's feats. Which is why I'm so positive that he doesn't have feats faster than Nanosecond reaction time.

His best reaction feat is breaking out of a fancy pair of cuffs, but that doesn't mean he can fight at nanoseconds, only perceive nanoseconds.

Which isn't useful at all against a guy like Wally who can have an entire fight in a picosecond.

sure sure Flash is faster but his hits are weak, they can't hurt Surfer who can withstand supernovas (need scans ask), the only way to hurt him is possibly an IMP, and i say possibly, because it's highly debatable that the IMP can hurt supernova durability.

Are you telling me that Surfer can take thousands of hits from a guy who hits like a white dwarf star?

the only thing that you fail to understand here, is that Wally can't use MFLT IMP. and i dare you, i double dare you prove that.

IMP works under lightspeed, Flash can't use IMP with FTL speed, because IMP works with relativity principles, the closer to lightspeed the more mass his punch gain, beyond lightspeed this principle is no more used.

IMP is lightspeed at best, and Surfer dodge lightspeed attacks easily. Flash won't be able to land a single IMP on Surfer.

Lol.

So you're telling me that the body approaches infinite mass the closer you get to lightspeed, and then once you surpass lightspeed the body just loses all of that?

That's so logically unsound I don't even know where to begin.

also lets add that Surfer can be completly immune to physical attacks if he wants by liquifying his body, punches whatever their power like IMP will just pass through him

Nope, because that would be matter manipulation, which is against the rules.

For anyone wondering who's unfamiliar with the feat in question, Jmarshmallow is the one who's relaying it correctly.

The combined forces of the(Silver-Age) heroes opposing The Anit-Montior were basically only capable of doing jack and sh!t to him.

They were then able to blow ONE hole in his chest after WALLY AMPED THEM to the point of being able to(when they couldn't even manage that previously).

Then The Anti-Monitor proceeds to one-shot ALL of them, and The Flash, in a fit of desperation, after commenting that The Anti-Monitor is "this time, too powerful to fall" totally dismantles the armor/doles out multiple times the damage the rest of the heroes had(again, combined WHILE AMPED).

Gallery

People may not like it, because it's inconsistent.

That's fine.

But don't go around pretending there's some ulterior context like the armor "having been weakened to the point of Flash being able to do it" because it suits how you'd like to see him portrayed.

The writers NEVER indicated /alluded/insinuated as much or otherwise.

Oh, and another little detail that's often overlooked: The Anti-Monitor was actually commented on by Flash as being MORE powerful than he originally was during the Crisis(presumably because Barry wasn't there in order to destroy the Anti-Matter cannon, and rob The Anti-Monitor of that advantage, also likely insinuated when Flash remarks that "this time he's too powerful to fall").

In other words: He busted the armor of an Anti-Monitor who was even MORE powerful than he originally was during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Yes. You just read that.

It's a ridiculously, inordinately, outrageously high-end feat.

But it happened.

Get over it.

@jmarshmallow: so if Wally never utilizes his speed, what makes you think he will here? And Wally is not undefeatable. Superheroes are not made to be Gods, and then morals on they lose to a street leveler.

Gladiator solos.

@xiix said:

For anyone wondering who's unfamiliar with the feat in question, Jmarshmallow is the one who's relaying it correctly.

The combined forces of the(Silver-Age) heroes opposing The Anit-Montior were basically only capable of doing jack and sh!t to him.

They were then able to blow ONE hole in his chest after WALLY AMPED THEM to the point of being able to(when they couldn't even manage that previously).

Then The Anti-Monitor proceeds to one-shot ALL of them, and The Flash, in a fit of desperation, after commenting that The Anti-Monitor is "this time, too powerful to fall" totally dismantles the armor/doles out multiple times the damage the rest of the heroes had(again, combined WHILE AMPED).

Gallery

People may not like it, because it's inconsistent.

That's fine.

But don't go around pretending there's some ulterior context like the armor "having been weakened to the point of Flash being able to do it" because it suits how you'd like to see him portrayed.

The writers NEVER indicated /alluded/insinuated as much or otherwise.

Oh, and another little detail that's often overlooked: The Anti-Monitor was actually commented on by Flash as being MORE powerful than he originally was during the Crisis(presumably because Barry wasn't there in order to destroy the Anti-Matter cannon, and rob The Anti-Monitor of that advantage, also likely insinuated when Flash remarks that "this time he's too powerful to fall").

In other words: He busted the armor of an Anti-Monitor who was even MORE powerful than he originally was during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Yes. You just read that.

It's a ridiculously, inordinately, outrageously high-end feat.

But it happened.

Get over it.

THANK YOU!

Someone who actually read the Comic lol.

I don't know where people are getting all of this extra context from...

Surfer and Gladiator probably

Because this is the Battle Forum, and it was specifically noted in the OP that Wally would be morals off and Bloodlusted in this fight. If he was morals on and in-character, then I'd agree that Surfer and Gladiator would win. However, it isn't.

So, because of that, he'll be utilizing the full extent of his speed, and thus be completely untouchable by anybody else in this Battle.

Lmfao

I agree though

This is actually the most properly debated thread I've ever been in in and witnessed

That's because I'm in here!

Wrong. They made more than a few holes and the armor had cracks in several spots. Also, even though the armor had been compromised, the feat itself is still suspect as Wally has NEVER done damage on that scale to something that durable. And if it was so easy for Wally to vibrate through the armor, why didn't Barry do it, who was even faster than Wally?

Gallery

If you look at the Anti-Monitor's face armor, it's clearly cracked.

That one was plenty?

Not really.

1) So does everyone in this battle usually except maybe Gladiator, so what's your point?

2) Wally is faster than White Martians are as they were described as around Kryptonian level characters. But White Martians have their ways of dishing out their own punishment:

Gallery

3) The Anti Monitor feat is not impressive when the scans are examined closely. Wally is not a multiversal threat. Like, not even close. And he certainly is not a threat to the a multiversal character.

You mean he has no quantifiable feats placing him in that class, maybe? And his so called nano second reaction feats are solid. The other nano second reaction feat involves the Surfer zipping from one dimension to the next. That's the part most people miss. It is actually part of him moving from one dimension/universe to the next.

Searching an entire planet in a matter of seconds for one dude and blitzing a guy from over a light year away put him at faster than nano second reaction times. And someone already mentioned: nano seconds and pico seconds don't mean squat to a character that can zip around and even engage in combat while moving through time, or even moving through dimensions. That's pretty fast. Even the speed force is indicated in terms of levels: sound, light, time, dimension and speed force (of course, what exactly speed force level is other than time travel or dimension hopping has never been elaborated upon by feats). In terms of speed, Surfer has done everything Wally has done. This would hold true for Gladiator as well, who has nano second combat feats as well as a feat for engaging in combat during a time stop.

So, yeah. Superman is way out of his element here. Wally, Glads and Norrin are all on a par speed/reaction wise.

Superman is not.

said:

sure sure Flash is faster but his hits are weak, they can't hurt Surfer who can withstand supernovas (need scans ask), the only way to hurt him is possibly an IMP, and i say possibly, because it's highly debatable that the IMP can hurt supernova durability.

Are you telling me that Surfer can take thousands of hits from a guy who hits like a white dwarf star?

You're joking right?

The narrative says he hits like a white dwarf. But what does the illustration show? Thawne getting popped? Really? This is your proof that Wally can really hit like a white dwarf? If he hit that hard, it would have destroyed the planet they were on. People who bust planets.....actually bust planets. Surfer on the other hand zips through stars and other wise coasts on the explosions from stars actually going nova for fun.

Which Wally has ZERO feats for. In terms of striking power, Wally is horribly outclassed by the other three.

Logic has little to do with comic book feats.

I'm not sure what he's telling you. But I'm telling the THAT is the way the IMP works. They work at or just below the speed of light. Wally has no feats that indicate he can dish out planetary level destruction that would put him in a class with the other three.

@xiix: @jmarshmallow:

Anti Monito's feat :

you're saying "Wally can destory a multiversal being's armor" let's refute this stupid claim word by word. but before that i invite every viner to use this answer and copy/paste it to completely destroy this silly Anti-Monitor feat.

Now let's start

Logic suggest that Wally would never ever even scratch a multiversal being, it makes no sens. it's absurd. Logic isn't in your side in this, that's one, ok, now let's continue,

Let's look into some context please instead of giving a character, aka Wally, credits he doesn't deserve.

First of all, Anti-Monitor got drained out of his energy by Dr Light, rendering him weaker, so forget the "multiversal" argument. and let's throw it to trash, that leaves us with "Wally can destroy a powerful being's armor"

Then, after being drained of energy, all JLA amped with speed force unleash their wrath on Anti-Monitor, giving a big blast that affected his entire armor (see how his armor looks so badly smitten by the balst in every spot and specially in the chest). that leaves us with "Wally can destroy a powerful being's smitten armor"

Now lets see what was the result of the JLA blast :

the armor has a gigantic teared hole in the chest, that leaves us with "Wally can destroy a powerful being's smitten armor with a gigantic teared hole"

and that's not all, let's check the other parts of this armor, we can see it's completely cracked from almost everywhere, arms, face, stomach, shoulders...etc

another closer look to the face completly cracked and weak, easy to shatter.

another close look to his shest, cracked neck, face and shoulders...etc

that leaves us with "Wally can destroy a powerful being's smitten and completely cracked armor with a gigantic teared hole".

then comes Wally and finishes off what left of the weakened armor :

Conclusion :

at the end what's the impressive feat that every Flash fan keep bragging about?

it's simply"Wally can destroy a powerful being's smitten and completely cracked armor with a gigantic teared hole" Not that impressive if you ask me, but cute. Let's give Wally and all his fans some sheering shall we.

My opinion on Superman's speed is based on feats. What is yours based on?

Sorry you don't understand the time travel thing. You should read more comics with characters that time travel. Maybe then it will become clear.

?

And Supes just doesn't have valid reaction feats to keep up with Gladiator.

And okay, so no transmutation. Doesn't make any difference as Surfer has used his entire body as a battering ram. He's taken out battalions of battle cruisers including several very large ones in Annihilation, so yeah. There is that.

Gladiator and Surfer murder stomp Wally and Superman. Superman shouldn't even really be in this fight.

@blackstaroblivion: ooooww, i was about to make a badass response, you completely stole the lights with your more awsome answer :P

good points all what i wanted to say you said it even better. check my previous post just above this one

Actually, I thought yours was better. Very nicely done.

Nice blowing up the scans of Anti-Monitor's armor totally cracked!

Supes and Wally stomp. I do admit that Gladiator is underrated, but SS is often highly hyped.

thanks

@all_mighty_beyonder:

@blackstaroblivion: If ya don't mind, I'm going to skip your whole AM rebuttal, as it's essentially the same as Beyonder's, and there's really no need for me to repeat myself.

So with that being said, I hope to make this brief.

That one was plenty?

Yup.

1) So does everyone in this battle usually except maybe Gladiator, so what's your point?

My point is that Wally can hurt Surfer, but Surfer can't even see Wally.

I thought that was clear...

2) Wally is faster than White Martians are as they were described as around Kryptonian level characters. But White Martians have their ways of dishing out their own punishment:

Never said they didn't!

You mean he has no quantifiable feats placing him in that class, maybe?

I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.

And his so called nano second reaction feats are solid. The other nano second reaction feat involves the Surfer zipping from one dimension to the next. That's the part most people miss. It is actually part of him moving from one dimension/universe to the next.

Travel speed, completely useless here.

Searching an entire planet in a matter of seconds for one dude

1). We don't know how long that actually took.

2). Surfer has Cosmic Awareness, so he didn't actually look at every face in a matter of seconds.

3). Wally has done the same, but he's done it faster. And his feat is actually given a quantifiable time.

and blitzing a guy from over a light year away put him at faster than nano second reaction times.

Travel speed.

And someone already mentioned: nano seconds and pico seconds don't mean squat to a character that can zip around and even engage in combat while moving through time, or even moving through dimensions. That's pretty fast. Even the speed force is indicated in terms of levels: sound, light, time, dimension and speed force (of course, what exactly speed force level is other than time travel or dimension hopping has never been elaborated upon by feats). In terms of speed, Surfer has done everything Wally has done. This would hold true for Gladiator as well, who has nano second combat feats as well as a feat for engaging in combat during a time stop.

Show me ONE combat speed feat where the Surfer has an ENTIRE FIGHT in a picosecond.

Not where he moves from one place to another in a picosecond.

Not where he does one action in a picosecond.

Not even where he hits a guy in a picosecond.

But where he is able to have both conversation, run around a lot, and exchange several blows in a picosecond.

Go ahead. I'll be waiting.

So, yeah. Superman is way out of his element here. Wally, Glads and Norrin are all on a par speed/reaction wise.

Wally is on a different level speed wise than everybody here, and I'll be waiting on your evidence to prove the contrary.

You're joking right?

The narrative says he hits like a white dwarf. But what does the illustration show? Thawne getting popped? Really? This is your proof that Wally can really hit like a white dwarf? If he hit that hard, it would have destroyed the planet they were on. People who bust planets.....actually bust planets. Surfer on the other hand zips through stars and other wise coasts on the explosions from stars actually going nova for fun.

Which Wally has ZERO feats for. In terms of striking power, Wally is horribly outclassed by the other three.

I'm really not going to have an argument with you about a clear, on panel statement.

His hits are like a white dwarf star.

Simple as that.

So no, it wouldn't bust the planet, because the force isn't applied to the entire planet, it's applied to Thawne's face. Just like when Thor hits someone it doesn't necessarily bust the planet every time. It's a concentrated blow that's only applied to a specific target.

Savvy?

Logic has little to do with comic book feats.

Agreed!

I'm not sure what he's telling you. But I'm telling the THAT is the way the IMP works. They work at or just below the speed of light.

And you're wrong. If you build infinite mass the closer you get to lightspeed, you're not just going to suddenly lose that mass once you surpass it.

Wally has no feats that indicate he can dish out planetary level destruction that would put him in a class with the other three.

And we've already established that a white dwarf star could bust a planet, so this is just wrong.

Cheers.

Team 2

@jmarshmallow: To put it in perspective; during the original Crisis, The Anti-Monitor was hit with that same attack( except in this case it was after having his power drawn from him by Dr. Light AND Alex Luthor). Not to be underestimated, the combined forces of the heroes had earlier in the story been referenced to as capable of "decimating a solar-system", not to mention Dr. Light redirecting the energy she'd absorbed from the local binary-star and hitting him with it in addition to withholding it's energy from him.

Again, basically the same attack, with seemingly an ADDITIONAL energy-drainer against a weaker Anti-Monitor(and obviously no Flash in this case).

Gallery

He was back up on the next page, with the same amount of damage done as shown when The Flash amped them(oh, and killed Wonder-Woman in one shot).

Gallery

His armor was finally destroyed after he was weakened FURTHER due to his shadow-demons being mystically sabotaged in anticipation of him re-absorbing them, Kal-L remarking he was "still too strong" to significantly harm, and resorted to hitting him...........with a fuking moon.

Gallery

So basically it took TWO high-end energy-drainers/manipulators sapping his power, getting hit by a combined attack that could potentially level a solar-system(in addition to being attacked by Negative-Woman AND the energy of a star shot at him by Dr. Light), then AFTER his armor had a "gigantic teared hole", tampering with his personal-power to the point of remarking it was "destroying him from the inside", having Kal-L admit he was STILL too damn durable to finish off conventionally, then that same silly lightweight smashing a celestial body into him to get the job done that Flash had displayed in literally 1 panel against an Anti-Monitor that was still more powerful than the one fought during the original Crisis that was STATED(not ASSUMED) as having had his power diminished to a "terrible degree".

And still it required everything short of the kitchen-sink(literally) being thrown at him as well as subterfuge to dismantle his shell completely.

Now, to recap: The Flash picked up the slack against an Anti-Monitor who started off with more power, had less of it drained, none of his personal potency redirected against him, heroes that weren't fighting as strategically, and the inability to chuck a moon in his face(which would've proven ineffective due to previously typed reasons, anyway).

Gee.

How could anyone be impressed by that, amirite?

Again; it's inconsistent, and I wouldn't use it, but it happened.

Suck it up, and get over it, people.

.

@all_mighty_beyonder said:

@blackstaroblivion said:

@all_mighty_beyonder said:

ooooww, i was about to make a badass response, you completely stole the lights with your more awsome answer :P

good points all what i wanted to say you said it even better. check my previous post just above this one

Actually, I thought yours was better. Very nicely done.

Nice blowing up the scans of Anti-Monitor's armor totally cracked!

thanks

His armor wasn't totally cracked , get your eyes checked.

People still questioning Wally's Speed?

@jmarshmallow:

1. Saying he one shotted a martian implies he has class 100- one shotting power

This is contradicted by a variety of things. Including failure to one shot any of the White Martians, to the point of getting overwhelmed by them in subsequent fights

2. The second thing. You said Wally busted up AMs armour. This is something the Spectre when powered up by .....everybody could not

For this showing to be valid you have to automatically assume that Wally vastly exceeds the power levels of spectre or indeed PC Kryptonians and the like

So either

A) Wally is more powerful than spectre ( amd various other PC characters)

B) The showing is PIS at its finest

As an aside, which other showing of Wallys even remotely approaches this? Also what makes Wally faster than a PC Kryptonian?

Wally solos

@jacthripper: Based on?

@jmarshmallow

SS silver skin grants him enough durability to tank hits from Galactus level beings before succumbing to physical damage.

He can and will tank 1,000+ white dwarf star hits. If Flash can even get that many in.

SS Then turns intangible.

SS then proceeds to stomp everyone singlehandedly.

- Omniscience.

@omniscience: surfer can't turn intangible otherwise there are so many characters who shouldn't be a problem to him physically yet he gets hit all the time

@thegrayghost: Superior combat speed and striking power

Also, when frozen, Dondave and jrmarshmallow all agree on something, they're almost always right

@jacthripper: Superior striking power? Based on what

Superior combat speed ?

Based on what? The fact that both Wally and Surfers best feats involve fighting through centuries? Or maybe the times Surfer is shown to be faster than Nova who moves at absolute zero and how Wally fares against that? How about the time Gladiator moved interstellar distances in hours and fought Thor on a day the universe is frozen in time?

No comment on what the other posters say beyond the fact that you should have your own opinions

It's funny to note that it has taken nearly 7 pages before surfer surviving universal energies that galactus himself could not and manipulating said energies to beat Galactus level beings to be brought up

Well at least Wally finally has some competition in the " way above anything else ever done by the character over decades/ completely inconsistent one off feat department"

All we need now is for someone to bring up superman lifting an infinite weight to really set up this *scintillating* debate

@jacthripper:

1. Lets see,off the top of my head, the time Norrin busted the planet and its surroundingmoons vs Morg with a headbutt . Morg was KOd by the impact. Surfer wasn't even scratched

2. Whoa....I really won't pursue that tactic if I were you. " slower character with no speed feats whatsoever tags speedster" is basically the plot of every flash issue ever

And you've got to admit getting" tagged by hulk " is a lot more impressive than getting " tagged by heat wave"

Also when do you feel Norrin has ever been beaten by Hulk, short of the time a weakened mind controlledNorrin slapped around both hulk and the war bound before .....stopping to fight hulk altogether to start thanking him. At which point hulk beat down the ( still weakened) surfer

3.Wally has " consistently also been tagged by regular humans" using that argument you used earlier

That's because the dude literally has one power: speed. So of course he will have more feats, especially when he had a waaay longer solo. As a side effect of his over exposure he has also gotten tagged many more times, using your argument about the surfer

Superman has more powers than Wally. Speed isn't his only power. So he has fewer speed feats. That doesn't mean we shouldn't count them does? By your logic, only quantity matters apparently

Surfer has still more powers. So he has fewer feats still ( lesser appearances too). But he DOES have them. And nothing to contradict those beyond " slower character tags him" which as I pointed out can be used as a devastating argument against wally

So finally. Does surfer have wallys Quantity of feats? No. Does he match if not surpass the quality? Yes

Wait you are honestly using " surfer flies, Wallys a sprinter , hence gravity" as an argument? What

As it is surfer has reaction/ thinking feats that do not even involve flying

Also we have specifically had story arcs addressing how the speed force reduces wind resistance/ friction etc( JLA classified red king arc)

No Thor doesn't have FT combat speed considering he was protected from the dilation by Reeds belt. Everything else except gladiator was frozen in the universe

It was a time dilation caused by a being using glacatus as his personal universal vaccum cleaner. They were at the perimeter of the universally bubble where the dilation was maximum and in reedd own words everything was frozen

The nuke feat was confirmed to be slower than light on panel. Later again by a different writer

iTs not wallys best feat

Wallys " consistency" also involves him getting consistently tagged far more often. Surfers far fewer appearances as a lead character , and variety of powers means we see a lot less of his speed

As it is , he has a dozen reaction feats, on par or greater than Wallys and nothing to contradict them. So that's enough for me

@pablosl:

Yeah. I I was not really muself when I wrote this. Sorry you took that personally!

But in regards to the battle itself Clark will be the winner in a fight. More tactical and has better reaction feats. As for the claims of Gladiator having better striking feats I should agree, but that does not mean he could hit with that much force with every punch in a fight, especially with Superman. Also these feats are perfectly debatable.

Also Im a big time comics fan in general of DC and Marvel, for eg Surfer is one of my favorite characters. But That doesn't mean that Im biased towards any. My opinion is subject to change but again, Gladiators' striking feats are questionable.

I know he busted planets with mere punches, but if someone gave me a size comparison to those planets as compared to, say, the Shadow Moon that actually knocked out Superman (which by the was kind of magic based, and we all know Superman against magic is kind of a lost cause) I would conseal.

As those planets could be the size of Pluto wich is actually smaller than some moons of Jupiter.

See my point here?!

Also, how dense were these planets?! Cause for eg Jupiter and Saturn are planets but they are made of mostly gas. So as I said these feats are perfectly questionable and debatable.

I would backup this DC team in this set up at 100%.

But MVP is Wally. Cause I don't know why, but his SA feats are still used in these battle forums.

And if were using only New52 characters I would have voted for the Marvel team.

Hope the explanations help make me seem less biased and I don't know what else.

Cheers.

@xiix: LOL!

Yeah bro, there's absolutely no way that Flash can do any damage to Surfer, since clearly him busting AM's armor is soooooo unimpressive. Honestly, the Avengers probably could have done it easily. With one hand behind their back.

Probably both hands behind their back if Surfer is helping them out.

@thegrayghost:

1. Saying he one shotted a martian implies he has class 100- one shotting power

It's not really an implication, it's a clear on panel feat. If you don't like it, get over it. It happened.

This is contradicted by a variety of things. Including failure to one shot any of the White Martians, to the point of getting overwhelmed by them in subsequent fights

He only has one-shot capabilities when he goes lightspeed or above, which he hardly ever does in combat because it's against his character.

But when he does, he actually 9 times out of 10 does one-shot.

2. The second thing. You said Wally busted up AMs armour. This is something the Spectre when powered up by .....everybody could not

For this showing to be valid you have to automatically assume that Wally vastly exceeds the power levels of spectre or indeed PC Kryptonians and the like

Nope. Because Spectre never had to bust through his armor, he went up against the Raw Energy Form of Anti Monitor.

You know, that same form that came back after Wally busted through his armor, completely unharmed?

So your argument was flawed from the start, because I'm not claiming that Wally is now Multiversal in power. He didn't beat the Anti-Monitor, he just busted through a Multiversal being's armor.

Which is more than enough to say he can hurt Surfer, considering all the Heroes in DC were unable to do so, even when amped.

So either

A) Wally is more powerful than spectre ( amd various other PC characters)

No, for reasons explained above.

B) The showing is PIS at its finest

You can feel free to believe that. However, it should be noted that naming every feat that doesn't support your argument as PIS is weak debating.

As an aside, which other showing of Wallys even remotely approaches this?

The fact that it's been noted several times that the faster he goes, the more powerful his blows, which is completely logical from a scientific standpoint. So hundreds of blows all going faster than light would reasonably destroy most beings.

Also what makes Wally faster than a PC Kryptonian?

Far superior feats.

That, and I don't think Surfer's EVER used intangibility in a fight.

Ever.

So it makes perfect sense it'd be one of the first thing he does. In a fight...........

@jmarshmallow: 1. Saying Wally one shots class 100 characters 9 times out of ten needs to be supported by feats and not speculation

For example- I sayWally can NOT one shot class 100 characters because he has on different occasions failed to onw shot wonder woman, Jonn , Superman in Bizarros body, ( weakened) SBP on a day Supes is putting him down with a punch and ......white Martians

These are instances that contradic the one time wally did one shot a class 100

Hence Wallys feats are invalid. Can he hurt class 100s with his blows? Yes he can and has. Can he one shot them? No he can't

2. The spectre fought AM in full armour in COIE and failed to bust it

" he didn't beat a multiversal dude. He just busted through his armour"

Thats bizarre logic. Not least because the AMs armour specifically stored the energy of universes and Wally would have to be multiversal to break through anyway

Also. This now means even assuming the factthat mmultiversal guys armour is not multiversal despite .....at a very basic level thia armour not cracking under the power of a dude who even without amps holds apart universes, eveb ignoring all of that, for Wally to break through he needs to be more powerful than just as one example PC Supes

Please show me the feats that make Wally more powerful than a guy who as a kid throws about neutron stars millions of lightyears and tows a galaxy worth of planets

And no....since we are playing the " any one off feat contradicted by decades of consistent character feats counts " game, Wally isn't particularly hurting a guy who can survive the energies of the expanding universe, which galactus himself admits he can't

So a scientific explanation for a guy who moves FTL.....interesting. so no actual feats that approach the AM feat then?

Again, I asked for feats that make Wally faster than PC characters

So far im not seeing much in your argument other than a casual disregard for consistency and a bias towards the DC characters

Which reminds me. Considering you claimed Batman tagging Flash as a legitimate feat, how do you feel the marvek characters perform here, considering both are faster than Batman

Heck I remember you being plenty happy to disregard stuff likw " Flash sees world as frozen" back then

My, my . Not even consistent in your own biased logic are you?

@thegrayghost:

1. Saying Wally one shots class 100 characters 9 times out of ten needs to be supported by feats and not speculation

It is feats. He consistently one shots when he gives it his all.

For example- I sayWally can NOT one shot class 100 characters because he has on different occasions failed to onw shot wonder woman, Jonn , Superman in Bizarros body, ( weakened) SBP on a day Supes is putting him down with a punch and ......white Martians

These are instances that contradic the one time wally did one shot a class 100

Those are all instances where Wally isn't bloodlusted, morals off, or at the very least trying his hardest. So no, that logic doesn't work.

Hence Wallys feats are invalid.

Feats don't just become invalid because you don't like them.

Can he hurt class 100s with his blows? Yes he can and has

Easily.

. Can he one shot them? No he can't

Yes, he can, when bloodlusted. An IMP is fully capable of one-shotting most characters, and for those with super good durability, then he just busts out multiple IMPs.

2. The spectre fought AM in full armour in COIE and failed to bust it

No, he didn't.

" he didn't beat a multiversal dude. He just busted through his armour"

Thats bizarre logic. Not least because the AMs armour specifically stored the energy of universes and Wally would have to be multiversal to break through anyway

And look at that, he did.

Also. This now means even assuming the factthat mmultiversal guys armour is not multiversal despite .....at a very basic level thia armour not cracking under the power of a dude who even without amps holds apart universes, eveb ignoring all of that, for Wally to break through he needs to be more powerful than just as one example PC Supes

Then Wally is more powerful than PC Supes.

Please show me the feats that make Wally more powerful than a guy who as a kid throws about neutron stars millions of lightyears and tows a galaxy worth of planets

I did, I showed you him busting Anti-Monitors armor.

That feat makes him superior to PC Supes.

And no....since we are playing the " any one off feat contradicted by decades of consistent character feats counts " game, Wally isn't particularly hurting a guy who can survive the energies of the expanding universe, which galactus himself admits he can't

Anti-Monitor > Galactus.

Wally can still hurt him.

So a scientific explanation for a guy who moves FTL.....interesting. so no actual feats that approach the AM feat then?

None that you'd listen to, since you ignore blatant on panel statements.

Again, I asked for feats that make Wally faster than PC characters

And I have already provided one.

Show me PC characters having an entire fight in a picosecond.

If you can't, Wally is faster.

So far im not seeing much in your argument other than a casual disregard for consistency and a bias towards the DC characters

So far I'm not seeing anything in your argument besides the usual disregard for clear feats that you refuse to accept unless I literally provide you every single feat that Wally has ever performed.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you when you keep ignoring feats. I don't care that you don't like it, I don't care that you don't think it's consistent.

I. Don't. Care.

It happened, so you need to accept that. If you can't, oh well.

Which reminds me. Considering you claimed Batman tagging Flash as a legitimate feat, how do you feel the marvek characters perform here, considering both are faster than Batman

They lose.

Duh.

That's kinda the point of this entire debate.

Heck I remember you being plenty happy to disregard stuff likw " Flash sees world as frozen" back then

I never once disregarded it.

My, my . Not even consistent in your own biased logic are you?

Of course I am.

The problem is that my actual logic is completely different from the constant Straw Man Fallacies that you like to pull out of nowhere.

@jmarshmallow:

1.he " consistently" one shots?

Seriously? Thats pretty much the reason we are having this debate. I would like to see some of these " consistent" examples of yours

2.Wally was just to take two of them utterly mind controlled and bloodlusted in his fights against Diana and Jonn.

Your logic is holding up great so far

3.Feats don't beome invalid because " I don't like them". Feats become invalid when they contradict decades of independent presentation.

Your logic on the other hand is " every feat counts no matter how inconsistent"

So by your logic. Heat wave . Nightwing. These are but two characterswho have tagged Wally on a day hes using his speed

since these feats now count, by your logic, how badly do you feel Surfer amd Gladiator stomp Wally considering their own speeds?

3.So Wally can beat the Living Tribunal with IMPs by your logic, yes or no?

Try not to contradict yourself on this one at least. .......

4. Have you even read COIE? The spectre fights AM in full armour. Theres an actual plot point about how his armour didn't bust, before that awful Flash retcon

5.So at this point you are flat out saying Wally is multiversal justnot to lose an argument? Dear me

6.Wally more powerful than the spectre?

This is just getting sad now....

So once again, which other feat of wallys even approaches this particular showing

Also how powerful do you feel post crisis supermanis considering his own one off feat of lifting infinity?

7. Nightwing tagged Wally without even looking. That makes nightwing faster than Wally

See what I did there? Thats your logic. An utter disregard for consistency just so you cam win an argument while blatantly contradicting your own logic to do so

Case in point. Your own statements have you noting Batman can tag Flash. But now that you no longer feel a desperate need to support batman, you are perfectly fine saying wally sees the world as frozen and reacts in picoseconds

Wow. Hypocrisy at its best

8. Again, using your own logic, Wally is more powerful than PC Supes because he busted AMs armour while supes couldn't, please give me any reasons as to why this logic is wrong then:

Post crisis supes is faster than Wally because he out reacted him

blindfolded Diana is millions of times faster than wally as she tagged Zoom

Slade is faster than Wally because Ollie said so , amd Slade impaled him

Batman is faster than Wally, by your own statements

sImce by your logic all these statements are true, surfer and Gladiator one shot Wally yes or no? Certainly they are both millions of times faster and stronger than Slade

9. Show me Wally crossing an infinite universe following supergirl so fast God needs to send his errand boy to ask Supes to slow down before destroying endless civilizations , and .....entering heaven itself

In fact lets keep expectations low here. Scans of Wally crossing millenia in seconds,to reach the end of time , cross the time curtain.....reach the bbeginning of time and come back to the present to prevent the story taking place in the first place

Picoseconds is all fine and dandy. ...not quite as impressive as actually moving through time

in this case changing events before they even happen

Coincidentally wallys actual best feats which you are ignoring involve some nifty time travel by themselves, if not at PC Supes levels

11. So hilariously you dodge yet anither question about the time you totally went " Batmam can tag the flash" and now are totally going " Flash can react in picoseconds"

You flat out count any and every feat as valid regardless of consistency. ....except when it comes to your own statements about how Batman can tag te flash , which would automatically imply Flashs speed is meaningless since literally everyone can now tag the flash by your logic

At which point you go into full on " Flash reacts in picoseconds" mode

now as your complete lack of an argument is being torn to shreds yet again, you flat out proclaim wally to be multiversal, above PC Spectre

You say hes above PC Supes on the bais of the logic " he cracked the armour, supws didn't" , but are almost certainly going to ignore the time slade impaled Wally and was noted to be faster

Since all feats count. ....slade> AM now, right?

Your arguments are some of the worst I've heard on the vine, ever and thats saying something

beyond a mindless loyalty to X Dc character in the thread, you show zero consistency or logic in your arguments to the point of happily going from " Batman wins cause he tags Flash" to " LOL Flash can't be beaten ever, can't be tagged ever and IMPS the Living Tribunal!" In the next

Uggh....what a waste of a debate

I think a point being missed here is this fight is morals off and bloodlusted. Simply put, there is no hero, Marvel or DC, who can keep up with Flash going all out. This is the crux of some people's problem with Flash: if he was operating at full potential, he could solo his entire Universe before they knew what was going on. Flash IS that powerful. Simply because Wally's personality prevents him from using his speed that way normally does not mean he won't if his inhibitions are turned off. Wally can get tagged by street-levelers because he never utilizes his speed fully in fights, due to his character's personality. Him getting tagged IS legit, just as for this fight no one being able to react to him IS legit, with no contradictions. It seems to me @thegrayghost is conflating two separate ideas into one and claiming contradiction as a result. Going all out, there is no character in fiction, save maybe Zoom, who can keep up with Wally.

And as for who wins, if it wasn't clear: Team DC. I actually checked into this because it had so many posts and the title led me to believe this should be a Marvel pantsing of DC, but it got much more interesting. Lol

@jmarshmallow

Okay...

Most of what you had to say to me appears to have been a series of hasty responses, not very well thought out at all. I will focus on the key statements you made:

My point is that Wally can hurt Surfer, but Surfer can't even see Wally.

I thought that was clear...

Look. I can tell you are really sincere about all this, but the fact is, Surfer and Wally both have demonstrated they can move and react, engage in combat while moving through time. Question for you. How much time passes when a character travels time?

*wait for it, wait for it....*

Travel speed, completely useless here.

So, now you're saying what is widely accepted around here as reaction feats are now travel feats? Strange, you even called them nano second reaction feats earlier.

Did you have a change of heart or something? They are clearly reaction feats. And they are only the start of the Surfer's reaction speed.

1). We don't know how long that actually took.

About five seconds. That's if I talk slow. An entire planet of randomly scattered people over the entire planet.

2). Surfer has Cosmic Awareness, so he didn't actually look at every face in a matter of seconds.

If he had used his cosmic awareness, he would never have had to leave. You are completely wrong on this point. The Surfer has sensed energy signatures, bio signatures, etc...from many light years away. He even traced Alicia through time before. He would never have left the spot if he had used his cosmic awareness. And why would Surfer try using his cosmic awareness to search a planet that Doctor Strange just said he searched in astral form, albeit unsuccessfully. Heck, he even says as much in his dialogue with the Surfer below. Then he tells everyone, that he is "going to make a thorough search of the planet. Please be patient." The context clearly indicates that the Surfer performed a physical search of the planet.

3). Wally has done the same, but he's done it faster. And his feat is actually given a quantifiable time.

Wally's fastest feats are time travel, just like the Surfer's fastest feats are time travel.

So...this is travel speed? He's not even on his board

And the thing people miss is he is aware he only has a nano second to react and finishes his thought before he reacts.

You're reaching. Big time. And nano is only the beginning of his speed. Like I said, he and Wally can travel time.

Travel speed.

That is the text book definition of a reaction feat. If he could only travel that fast and not react, he would never have even seen Thanos at that speed, much less been able to react.

Try again.

Show me ONE combat speed feat where the Surfer has an ENTIRE FIGHT in a picosecond. Not where he moves from one place to another in a picosecond. Not where he does one action in a picosecond. Not even where he hits a guy in a picosecond. But where he is able to have both conversation, run around a lot, and exchange several blows in a picosecond.

Go ahead. I'll be waiting.

The Surfer battles red shift in the heart of a black hole where time comes to a stop. I figure that one will be one of the easiest for you to understand.

Wally is on a different level speed wise than everybody here, and I'll be waiting on your evidence to prove the contrary.

No. He isn't. They both move through time. That is to say, they both move through 4th dimensional space, where time no longer matters. Not sure if you're just being difficult or if you just genuinely don't understand.

I'm really not going to have an argument with you about a clear, on panel statement.

His hits are like a white dwarf star.

Simple as that.

So no, it wouldn't bust the planet, because the force isn't applied to the entire planet, it's applied to Thawne's face. Just like when Thor hits someone it doesn't necessarily bust the planet every time. It's a concentrated blow that's only applied to a specific target.

Savvy?

His best IMP is from JLA 3, which is actually the first instance of the IMP. He knocked a white martian cross continent. THAT is the best IMP feat by Wally. Period. Why Thawne, who has few feats to speak of regarding any durability, was not absolutely shattered in that feat is beyond me. Having said that, you're going to have to produce better feats for damage from Wally if you wan to be taken serious here.

And you're wrong. If you build infinite mass the closer you get to lightspeed, you're not just going to suddenly lose that mass once you surpass it.

Yet that is exactly how it happens because, as mentioned, it's a comic book feat. And theoretically, any character approaching the speed of light should be able to throw an IMP. But when a character is as strong as the Surfer (Wally has no known super strength, the other three obviously do), an IMP is even more devastating. Superman proved this:

Again, the IMP works at or near the speed of light.

And we've already established that a white dwarf star could bust a planet, so this is just wrong.

Huh. Too bad that's clearly not what the feat shows.

@jestersmiles: My eyes work great. Any other response than: "his armor is clearly compromised, in several places in fact", is the wrong response.

Let me get you that doctor. sec.....

For anyone wondering who's unfamiliar with the feat in question, Jmarshmallow is the one who's relaying it correctly.

The combined forces of the(Silver-Age) heroes opposing The Anit-Montior were basically only capable of doing jack and sh!t to him.

They were then able to blow ONE hole in his chest after WALLY AMPED THEM to the point of being able to(when they couldn't even manage that previously).

Then The Anti-Monitor proceeds to one-shot ALL of them, and The Flash, in a fit of desperation, after commenting that The Anti-Monitor is "this time, too powerful to fall" totally dismantles the armor/doles out multiple times the damage the rest of the heroes had(again, combined WHILE AMPED).

Gallery

People may not like it, because it's inconsistent.

That's fine.

But don't go around pretending there's some ulterior context like the armor "having been weakened to the point of Flash being able to do it" because it suits how you'd like to see him portrayed.

The writers NEVER indicated /alluded/insinuated as much or otherwise.

Oh, and another little detail that's often overlooked: The Anti-Monitor was actually commented on by Flash as being MORE powerful than he originally was during the Crisis(presumably because Barry wasn't there in order to destroy the Anti-Matter cannon, and rob The Anti-Monitor of that advantage, also likely insinuated when Flash remarks that "this time he's too powerful to fall").

In other words: He busted the armor of an Anti-Monitor who was even MORE powerful than he originally was during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Yes. You just read that.

It's a ridiculously, inordinately, outrageously high-end feat.

But it happened.

Get over it.