@King-Stranglehold da first: Sorry just wanted to apologise, my argument seem very rude, trust me i am not always like that. I am having a bad day, and i had no right to take it out on you, i feel horrible about it, and i implore your forgiveness.
Deleting my response for now, will get back to you when i am feeling a lot better.
Just to give a summary of what i disagreed with you, there is nothing that shows Phoenix Force is multiverse, just a small collection of scan filled with character hyperboles. None of Phoenix feat has been universe +, be it via Avatar or the force as a whole.
Virtually every bio ever written on Phoenix point to her being universe. Saying she is multiversal based on empty derivals seems just wrong.
Once again sorry for a very rude reply, your reply was humble and warrented no so rebuttal from my part.
@King-Stranglehold da first: Sorry just wanted to apologise, my argument seem very rude, trust me i am not always like that. I am having a bad day, and i had no right to take it out on you, i feel horrible about it, and i implore your forgiveness.
Deleting my response for now, will get back to you when i am feeling a lot better.
Just to give a summary of what i disagreed with you, there is nothing that shows Phoenix Force is multiverse, just a small collection of scan filled with character hyperboles. None of Phoenix feat has been universe +, be it via Avatar or the force as a whole.
Virtually every bio ever written on Phoenix point to her being universe. Saying she is multiversal based on empty derivals seems just wrong.
Once again sorry for a very rude reply, your reply was humble and warrented no so rebuttal from my part.
No need to apologize. :)
I too was acting like a dick on this thread too, no need to delete your post.
Not every bio indicates that it is only universal. And none of it should seems like a hyberbole. I even explained how the Phoenix works. Also I believe narrations in comics should be looked at as 'God' and we should take what narrations tell us as the truth...
Also a list of the Phoenix Multiversal feats:
Projecting Pillars throughout the multiverse and creating an Energy Matrix - Host: Feron
Unknowingly combining two universes together - Host: Rachel Summers
Compressed alternate universes into singularity threaten to destroy them - Host: Necrom
Plucking the 616 universe from the multiverse and telekinetically controlling it atom by atom - Host: Jean Grey
We can keep going, but I agree to disagree since this wasn't even my main argument.
Not every bio indicates that it is only universal. And none of it should seems like a hyberbole. I even explained how the Phoenix works. Also I believe narrations in comics should be looked at as 'God' and we should take what narrations tell us as the truth...
Most bio does actually, if you notice my last post has scans from virtually every handbook where Phoenix has made appearence , barring 2009, i just dont have 2009 handbook. Same bio also says she "allegedly" is nexus to psionic energies of the multiverse, and the word allegedly actually means she is supposed to be, without any proof. If you like i can quote more bios at you.
Also a list of the Phoenix Multiversal feats:
Projecting Pillars throughout the multiverse and creating an Energy Matrix - Host: Feron
Unknowingly combining two universes together - Host: Rachel Summers
Compressed alternate universes into singularity threaten to destroy them - Host: Necrom
Plucking the 616 universe from the multiverse and telekinetically controlling it atom by atom - Host: Jean Grey
We can keep going, but I agree to disagree since this wasn't even my main argument.
I dont think we are going to get anywhere if we could keep going but i am still honestly interested if you can at least point me a feat from Phoenix i am missing.
There instances are misunderstood.
1. Being able to project pillars (it was a lighthouse and of same size anyways) across multiverse isnt even that impressive and there is a huge context involved. Feron waited for something called"Interface Alignment" to occur. That's something that happens on it's own. The "IA" is what allows simultaneous access to all realities. THEN at the moment of "Alignment" was the PF able to project (or create) a portal Tower in every reality simultaneously so the credit goes to Interface Alignment, he waited for this to happen, because Necrom apparently told him so , off panel.
2. Necrom is a sorcer supreme, and he was Feron's master, he was the one who took the pillar, and using the pillar, Interface Alignment as well as magic, was going to try and pull it off, as in combining all alternate universe into a singularity to destroy the omniverse. Note this is something he was planning to do, at no point did he actually do it. So that really isnt a multiverse feat like at all, unless we ignore all multiversal attuning to a same vibration once every 1000 years and opening a nexus.
If it helps clarify, Surtur recently in Thor: Everything Burns, using similar nexus approach was going to destroy entire multiverse, something way outside his pay grade normally. Havok did something similar as well, erased goblin from the omniverse using his connection via nexus.
3. Jean Feat from Here Comes Tomorrow is better than the above 2 but what you are saying isnt what happened. The universe she manipulate was Reality 15104 (Here Comes Tomorrow) which is but one of the possible alternate future of marvel 616. Even controlling one universe she did while she was in White Hot Room, where Phoenix is amped. An even then the only real feat we see her doing is extracting sublime atom, its rogue bacteria, from HCT future, which she did with help and 6 pages of prep, from her place of power. Seeing how Betsy , without Phoenix, was able to do this in white hot room
I dont see how Jean's feat is above universal.
4. Lastly to Rachel's feat,i know its somewhere later on Excalibur volume one, i cant recall the exact issue where it took place. Do you have the issue number, coz i know there is a context involved to 2 realities first merging and seperating together, with Rachel having very little to do with it, can you tell me the issue number i can go check. Its on Excalibur vol 1, about 20 odd issues after her fight with Galactus.
I have debate back and forth about Phoenix in comicvine, with many people know, i have yet to find anyone who has successfully pointed me to 1 feat from Phoenix that is universal +, heck as far as 616 universe is concerned her feats havent even been universal apart from cosmic awareness. I still strongly mantain, a lack of multiversal feat, bios explanation of her power being universe, writers commentary all point to the fact that Phoenix Force is all hyperbole and doesnt have multiversal power.
Not every bio indicates that it is only universal. And none of it should seems like a hyberbole. I even explained how the Phoenix works. Also I believe narrations in comics should be looked at as 'God' and we should take what narrations tell us as the truth...
Most bio does actually, if you notice my last post has scans from virtually every handbook where Phoenix has made appearence , barring 2009, i just dont have 2009 handbook. Same bio also says she "allegedly" is nexus to psionic energies of the multiverse, and the word allegedly actually means she is supposed to be, without any proof. If you like i can quote more bios at you.
Also a list of the Phoenix Multiversal feats:
Projecting Pillars throughout the multiverse and creating an Energy Matrix - Host: Feron
Unknowingly combining two universes together - Host: Rachel Summers
Compressed alternate universes into singularity threaten to destroy them - Host: Necrom
Plucking the 616 universe from the multiverse and telekinetically controlling it atom by atom - Host: Jean Grey
We can keep going, but I agree to disagree since this wasn't even my main argument.
I dont think we are going to get anywhere if we could keep going but i am still honestly interested if you can at least point me a feat from Phoenix i am missing.
There instances are misunderstood.
1. Being able to project pillars (it was a lighthouse and of same size anyways) across multiverse isnt even that impressive and there is a huge context involved. Feron waited for something called"Interface Alignment" to occur. That's something that happens on it's own. The "IA" is what allows simultaneous access to all realities. THEN at the moment of "Alignment" was the PF able to project (or create) a portal Tower in every reality simultaneously so the credit goes to Interface Alignment, he waited for this to happen, because Necrom apparently told him so , off panel.
2. Necrom is a sorcer supreme, and he was Feron's master, he was the one who took the pillar, and using the pillar, Interface Alignment as well as magic, was going to try and pull it off, as in combining all alternate universe into a singularity to destroy the omniverse. Note this is something he was planning to do, at no point did he actually do it. So that really isnt a multiverse feat like at all, unless we ignore all multiversal attuning to a same vibration once every 1000 years and opening a nexus.
If it helps clarify, Surtur recently in Thor: Everything Burns, using similar nexus approach was going to destroy entire multiverse, something way outside his pay grade normally. Havok did something similar as well, erased goblin from the omniverse using his connection via nexus.
3. Jean Feat from Here Comes Tomorrow is better than the above 2 but what you are saying isnt what happened. The universe she manipulate was Reality 15104 (Here Comes Tomorrow) which is but one of the possible alternate future of marvel 616. Even controlling one universe she did while she was in White Hot Room, where Phoenix is amped. An even then the only real feat we see her doing is extracting sublime atom, its rogue bacteria, from HCT future, which she did with help and 6 pages of prep, from her place of power. Seeing how Betsy , without Phoenix, was able to do this in white hot room
I dont see how Jean's feat is above universal.
4. Lastly to Rachel's feat,i know its somewhere later on Excalibur volume one, i cant recall the exact issue where it took place. Do you have the issue number, coz i know there is a context involved to 2 realities first merging and seperating together, with Rachel having very little to do with it, can you tell me the issue number i can go check. Its on Excalibur vol 1, about 20 odd issues after her fight with Galactus.
I have debate back and forth about Phoenix in comicvine, with many people know, i have yet to find anyone who has successfully pointed me to 1 feat from Phoenix that is universal +, heck as far as 616 universe is concerned her feats havent even been universal apart from cosmic awareness. I still strongly mantain, a lack of multiversal feat, bios explanation of her power being universe, writers commentary all point to the fact that Phoenix Force is all hyperbole and doesnt have multiversal power.
If you read your bios it said it just says 'prime universal force of life'...
1. Here's a scan for that. The Projection of a tower throughout the Multiverse so that it could exist in all existing realities at once.
It shows that the Phoenix has a connection to the multiverse. Also it said he called to the Phoenix avatar to do it...
2. Here's the scan...Necrom with a insignificant portion of the Phoenix Force (dubbed as the Anti-Phoenix) managed to compress Alternate Universes into singularity...You can see he has the Phoenix Force and Nightcrawler even states he does.
Doesn't mean he couldn't have...And when was Surtur going to destroy a multiverse?
3. Um...That doesn't make sense..The White Hot Room is a part of the Phoenix(the heart of the Phoenix) and it exist outside the universe. It just amps the avatars. Also...
Here Comes Tomorrow is the alternate reality that diverged from the prime 616 Reality. The story starts in the aftermath of Planet X from New X-Men where Magneto killed Jean Grey via lethal electro-magnetic pulse.
Then fast forward 150 years into the future, a Phoenix Egg was found by some astronauts which lead to the rebirth of Jean Grey. With that has been said, it is clear that Jean Grey and the White Phoenix of the Crown are all characters from the prime Universe..
What she did was cut off the future which was 15104 reality which left the 616 reality for her to control atom by atom.. She did not control the future, she cut if off which by virtue of logic means that what she controlled that instance was the present, which is the 616 reality. It was shown and proven on panel.. even he official bio says so..
4. Here's the scan...Rachel Summers managed to combine two universes without even knowing it.
There were many times that Phoenix was at universal levels. Again we can agree to disagree. I don't really care for this debate since it wasn't the original argument. Do you at least agree that House of M Wanda wins???
Because no one has shown that Ghost Rider is resistant to reality wrapping and I have asked a million times for certain characters to show me which they have not.
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
You never proved Ghost Rider is immune to reality wrapping and the scans you posted with Zadkiel didn't even indicate that he was using reality wrapping. Also if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, you would have to prove its on the same level as House of M Wanda's. No offense but you also seem to think transmutation is the same as reality wrapping.
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
You never proved Ghost Rider is immune to reality wrapping and the scans you posted with Zadkiel didn't even indicate that he was using reality wrapping. Also if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, you would have to prove its on the same level as House of M Wanda's. No offense but you also seem to think transmutation is the same as reality wrapping.
really? where did I sau Transmutation is the same as Realty Warping. Quote me. I merely stated GR is immune to Reality Warping and Transmutation. You simply just want to pick fights and ignore my post. At least some people took the time to read the facts rather than taking your word Yahweh is Arron's version of God he used in his stories. I also dont try quoting Fan Made Wikis.
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
You never proved Ghost Rider is immune to reality wrapping and the scans you posted with Zadkiel didn't even indicate that he was using reality wrapping. Also if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, you would have to prove its on the same level as House of M Wanda's. No offense but you also seem to think transmutation is the same as reality wrapping.
really? where did I sau Transmutation is the same as Realty Warping. Quote me. I merely stated GR is immune to Reality Warping and Transmutation. You simply just want to pick fights and ignore my post. At least some people took the time to read the facts rather than taking your word Yahweh is Arron's version of God he used in his stories. I also dont try quoting Fan Made Wikis.
I don't have any intentions on picking fights. I am just correcting some errors. When I asked you to post scans of GR resisting reality wrapping, you posted a scan of Nul using transmutation on the GR, so I got the idea that you thought transmutation is the same as reality. You can call it a fan made wikia all you. Heck others on this thread quoted things from the 'fan made wikia' to prove you wrong and they were correct. I believe you are using fan made wikia as an strawman argument to dodge it, For the most part Marvel wikia is accurate. But even so I told you to look up Thor# 300 volume 1 in which Yahweh first appeared. Also U asked you again who is the Judo-Christian 'God' in Marvel if Yahweh is not it. It's certainly not the OAA...So does the Judo-Christian 'God' not exist in the Marvel universe, yet he was mention multiple times in the Marvel universe. I want to hear your statement. Again you're saying Fan Made Wikia's because that wikia totally messes up your whole argument.
Also I did not ignore a hint of what you said, you on the other hand ignored what me and others have said about House of M Wanda being beyond universal and the scans. So if you wanna say I'm ignoring what you're saying then you might want to look in the mirror.
Whether or not SW wins this depends on whether or not she can reality warp ghost rider....which I doubt by the way. I can think of many guaranteed wins for ghost rider
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
You never proved Ghost Rider is immune to reality wrapping and the scans you posted with Zadkiel didn't even indicate that he was using reality wrapping. Also if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, you would have to prove its on the same level as House of M Wanda's. No offense but you also seem to think transmutation is the same as reality wrapping.
really? where did I sau Transmutation is the same as Realty Warping. Quote me. I merely stated GR is immune to Reality Warping and Transmutation. You simply just want to pick fights and ignore my post. At least some people took the time to read the facts rather than taking your word Yahweh is Arron's version of God he used in his stories. I also dont try quoting Fan Made Wikis.
I don't have any intentions on picking fights. I am just correcting some errors. When I asked you to post scans of GR resisting reality wrapping, you posted a scan of Nul using transmutation on the GR, so I got the idea that you thought transmutation is the same as reality. You can call it a fan made wikia all you. Heck others on this thread quoted things from the 'fan made wikia' to prove you wrong and they were correct. I believe you are using fan made wikia as an strawman argument to dodge it, For the most part Marvel wikia is accurate. But even so I told you to look up Thor# 300 volume 1 in which Yahweh first appeared. Also U asked you again who is the Judo-Christian 'God' in Marvel if Yahweh is not it. It's certainly not the OAA...So does the Judo-Christian 'God' not exist in the Marvel universe, yet he was mention multiple times in the Marvel universe. I want to hear your statement. Again you're saying Fan Made Wikia's because that wikia totally messes up your whole argument.
Also I did not ignore a hint of what you said, you on the other hand ignored what me and others have said about House of M Wanda being beyond universal and the scans. So if you wanna say I'm ignoring what you're saying then you might want to look in the mirror.
Here is why I find the Wiki unacceptable.
You should proof of a god name Yahweh in Thor 300.
However that is as far as anything goes.
1) There is no quote, scan, or Source that shows Yahweh made Humans. None. All made up in a wiki with no source.
2) There is no proof Yahweh is the same God in Arron's GR run as God has never been referred to anything but simply God or Father.
3) The Name Yahweh is the name of the God Head of other Gods of Edom that the Jews used as the name for their God. So the Yahweh you showed at the council of God heads would be the God of Edom Gods.
4) Marvel Official Site has no info or source description for Yahweh
Over and above there is NO real connection in anything other than personal theory here of Yahweh being Arron's God.
As for my own knowledge of this god is that in the Ghost Rider comics back in the 70s and 80s had refered to the Judeo Christain God Almighty. We even had a Jesus stranger who banish Mephisto with ease.
This is not a new concept for GR comics.
Then we have Unidentified Angels still show in the 90s like Uriel.
A real Angel of great power in Christain mythology. This angel alone rival Mephisto in power. This one Angel.
Then in the 2000s we have more Angels than ever inluding Lucifer himself as a bonafied Hell Lord.
Even now we only have cryptic and walking on eggshells descriptions of Juedeo Christian God.
Again more Angels of vast power that been here before mankind exist. These 2 comment they should have stuck with the Dinosaurs. Where did they come from?
Even Dr. Strange is not FULLY understanding GR origins or where his power come from. The Sorcerer Supreme is clueless to GR potential and power source and knows only the basics.
as seen GR refers to the God of his power which created this dimension of lost Souls and Ghost Riders.
A whole Cosmos dedicate to Lost souls and Ghost Rider alone by God. Even caleb says here it Older than Earth. Older than the Eldar Gods then!
Heck know from Garth ennis that the Ghost Rider bu itself is equal to a Hell Lord and have their own Realm.
All are descriptions of this God that Jason Arron and Garth Ennis keep portraying in their GR titles.
Its a standing fact that God from the Judeo Christian faith is a long standing God in Ghost Rider series and GR series alone.
He has never been refereed to or called anything else but God, God Almighty, or the Father.
My Facts stand that the God backing GR is at the very least World Level and is a Divine power that easily banishes Hell Lords with his power. His Angels are Hell Lord powered alone. Lucifer alone is a mere Hell Lord in power to this God.
This Gods is older than Earth it would seem. Older than Odin and any Patheon as well the Eldar Gods.
This God has made its own Cosmos for Ghost Riders.
This God's power as claimed by arron's writing and the Angel Zadkiel will unmake the Cosmos.
All facts.
Zadkiel with all the power of this Almighty God could not kill or unmake the Ghost Riders who are Gods Wrath on earth.
Here is Jason Aaron's description of zadkiel power from God. Aaron says its the power to remake creation then who the hell can really argue that?
So when Zadkiel fails to Reality Warp them with the power over Creation of 616 earth (alot like wanda did, she affected Marvel Earth and nothing else in the universe) why should GR not be immune to Wanda Reality Warping power?
This is my argument and you will either agree or disagree.
If you read your bios it said it just says 'prime universal force of life'...
1. Here's a scan for that. The Projection of a tower throughout the Multiverse so that it could exist in all existing realities at once.
It shows that the Phoenix has a connection to the multiverse. Also it said he called to the Phoenix avatar to do it...
2. Here's the scan...Necrom with a insignificant portion of the Phoenix Force (dubbed as the Anti-Phoenix) managed to compress Alternate Universes into singularity...You can see he has the Phoenix Force and Nightcrawler even states he does.
Doesn't mean he couldn't have...And when was Surtur going to destroy a multiverse?
I did not ask you for a scan, i said there was context involved, i.e. the alignment.
Here is what i said.
"Being able to project pillars (it was a lighthouse and of same size anyways) across multiverse isnt even that impressive and there is a huge context involved. Feron waited for something called"Interface Alignment" to occur. That's something that happens on it's own. The "IA" is what allows simultaneous access to all realities. THEN at the moment of "Alignment" was the PF able to project (or create) a portal Tower in every reality simultaneously so the credit goes to Interface Alignment, he waited for this to happen"
So here is the complete 3 scans from Excalibur 50 where Merlyn explains Roma how the tower was created.
Excalibur 50
Gallery
More specifically this panel:
"And when a series of interfaces across the multiverse were alighned, the localized energy fields merged to create an energy matrix of awesome power".
So the creation of lighthouse in every plane of reality was because of the interface alignment which is what allowed the access to all realities , its has very little do with the power of the Phoenix Force.
This is further backed by the bio
Phoenix Handbook 2010
So again it was thanks to the "interface alignment" that the feat was possible its not Phoenix power.
Nercom actually waited for the interface alighment and the lighthouse in order to compress the realities.
Surtur was going to burn the entire multiverse during Thor: Everything burns
3. Um...That doesn't make sense..The White Hot Room is a part of the Phoenix(the heart of the Phoenix) and it exist outside the universe. It just amps the avatars. Also...
Not sure why you posted that bio, never asked you to.
White Hot Room lies in M'kraan crystal, which is a nexus to all realities, and biggest advatange of nexus is it allowed 2 things:
1. Simulaneous access to all realities.
2. Access to limitless power
That is why Betsy without the power of Phoenix was able to call upon all of their reality counterparts.
Here Comes Tomorrow is the alternate reality that diverged from the prime 616 Reality. The story starts in the aftermath of Planet X from New X-Men where Magneto killed Jean Grey via lethal electro-magnetic pulse.
Agreed, but its still not 616, will get to that later :)
Then fast forward 150 years into the future, a Phoenix Egg was found by some astronauts which lead to the rebirth of Jean Grey. With that has been said, it is clear that Jean Grey and the White Phoenix of the Crown are all characters from the prime Universe..
Partly agree, partly disagree.
What she did was cut off the future which was 15104 reality which left the 616 reality for her to control atom by atom.. She did not control the future, she cut if off which by virtue of logic means that what she controlled that instance was the present, which is the 616 reality. It was shown and proven on panel.. even he official bio says so..
Now here is when i disagree.
Here comes tomorrow is a possible, divergent reality from 616, much like out Guardian of the Galaxy, Reality 691 is. It is not 616, it has never been 616.
Bios back it up
As it reads "In one future, Phoenix severed an alternate future of reality 15104, from the rest of the multiverse and nudged Cyclops of Earth 616 to reopen the Xavier institute".
And that is exactly what she did. The whole Reality 15104 was created because Cyclops decided to leave X-men, so what Phoenix did was nudged (or asked, or make, or mind r@pe, whichever one you choose) Cyclops not to leave X men thereby preventing the creation of Reality 15104 altogether.
Grant Morission explained that in the questionaire section in X men 155
Rather clear i would say, Scott walked away from X-men Reality 15104 happened, Jean from white hot room affect Scott's decision in the past and hence the reality never took place
"Jean made sure that horrible future would never take place by making him stay with Emma instead".
No where does it even remotely allude that she manipulated, or control 616 reality, all she did was control Cyclop's head accessed from White Hot Room.
So what Jean damanged by manipulating sublime atom was Reality 15104, not 616 as its clearly stated on bio. 616 Reality was never affected to begin with, all that changed was Scott not leaving Emma and hence the creation of this horrible future timeline never happened.
The feat is good, awesome, but still universal , and not even the full fledged 616 universe but rather an orphan, possible future of 616, even that accessed from a nexus of all reality, privy of unlimited power.
4. Here's the scan...Rachel Summers managed to combine two universes without even knowing it.
I never asked you for a scan, i asked your for a issue number, this was my last reply:
". Lastly to Rachel's feat,i know its somewhere later on Excalibur volume one, i cant recall the exact issue where it took place. Do you have the issue number, coz i know there is a context involved to 2 realities first merging andseparatingtogether, with Rachel having very little to do with it, can you tell me the issue number i can go check. Its on Excalibur vol 1, about 20 odd issues after her fight with Galactus."
I know the feat exists, i know people have tired to wank this feat, and when i was quoted the issue number and went back to check there was context involved, cant recall it on the top of my head so i am asking you for the issue number. Note how it says even in the scan "realities repaired itself" rather than anything to do with Rachel.
There were many times that Phoenix was at universal levels. Again we can agree to disagree. I don't really care for this debate since it wasn't the original argument. Do you at least agree that House of M Wanda wins???
Because no one has shown that Ghost Rider is resistant to reality wrapping and I have asked a million times for certain characters to show me which they have not.
Phoenix has worked at universal, in various alternate realities, yes not in 616, apart from awareness.
Not too sure on HOM Wanda, seeing what she did she likely could, also Wanda main feat wasnt even reality warping but unleasing of Chaos Wave. Reality Warping from wanda was limited to 616 reality and 616 reality only, it was a universal wrap. The biggest point however was, thanks to the wrap Chaos Wave was released, ripping outside 616 that literally tore Omniverse to shreds, thats the kind of power.
I think Wanda would win.
@CadenceV2 said:
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
I think wanda would win man, given her power. People under-estimate Wanda, her showing of power in HOM, is better than anything we have seen from the likes of Pre-Retcon Beyonder, Molecule Man , Living Tribunal or even Infinity Gauntlet.
In order to grant one wish, she lets out the chaos wave that tore apart from omnvierse, then in order to correct the flaw she utters 3 mere words "No more mutant", as she is not in complete control of her power the warp is only limited to 616, but the chaos wave heal the entire omniverse she ripped to shreds.
I think Wanda has enough firepower to put down even Zarathos, but thats assuming Wanda is somehow in control of her powers, and willing to use it, i dont think even Wanda ever wanted to destroy so many alternate realities.
@Killemall: Na she cant put him down and she cant erase him either, and there is no prep she also knows nothing about him GR knows nothing either also, GR doesnt need to know since he is hard to kill and he never prep but thats not the point, she atacks and then GR applies the penance stare.I doubt she will be atack at full power from the start but it makes no difference.
@CadenceV2: Again God means nothing. Like i have shown you, the WRITER is God of Marvelverse. Any other claim is false.
"I really don't care about how much more powerful her reality warp is to Zadkiel." Ok what?? So by your logic not even PR-Beyonder can do anything to GR.
Can you show me wen GR resist some reality warping. No hell lord, no angel some one the can actually warp reality.
@Killemall: Na she cant put him down and she cant erase him either, and there is no prep she also knows nothing about him GR knows nothing either also, GR doesnt need to know since he is hard to kill and he never prep but thats not the point, she atacks and then GR applies the penance stare.I doubt she will be atack at full power from the start but it makes no difference.
Its not about prep its just that her showing of power dwarfs anything we have seen Ghost Rider or Zarathos withstand. We know Zarathos, given time, can be defeated by Mephisto in hell, his durability is by no means unlimited, and you compare Mephisto's showing of power against say Wanda's showing of power its like comparing a pistol against nuke.
Also Wanda's power is Chaos Magic, reasonable to believe it is going to hurt him. I mean come on, she, without wanting to, without unleasing her full power, rip the omniverse to shreds, then later healed the entire omniverse, its not her reality warp that is going to take down Zarathos , and i kind of agree, without really a proof, that Zarathos likely wont be erased out of existence. What i dont agree is Zarathos has anything against the magnitude of power Wanda has shown.
That being said totally agree with the last part, Wanda likely wont attack him at full power and GR could likely put Wanda down, as long as she isnt in full control of her powers.Power to tear apart omniverse without even exerting full effort, is a feat in marvel unmatched thus far.
Whether or not SW wins this depends on whether or not she can reality warp ghost rider....which I doubt by the way. I can think of many guaranteed wins for ghost rider
Why on earth does she need to warp Ghost Rider out of existence when her chaos wave can pwn him just fine.
@King-Stranglehold da first: Ask him something, if Zadkiel had the power of a god, how did he get pwned by a bunch of 15 dead ghost rider? Also ask him to show Marvel Hierachy ever including heaven as one having cosmic significance apart from the heaven shown on Fantastic Four which was revealed to be Marvel Headquarter..
Also dark magic, has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider, how come we ignore that?
@CadenceV2: Again God means nothing. Like i have shown you, the WRITER is God of Marvelverse. Any other claim is false.
"I really don't care about how much more powerful her reality warp is to Zadkiel." Ok what?? So by your logic not even PR-Beyonder can do anything to GR.
Can you show me wen GR resist some reality warping. No hell lord, no angel some one the can actually warp reality.
I never consider Pre Retcon Beyonder Reailty Warp. any other Beyonder would be powerless against GR as well.
I showed you Reality Warping through Divine Means and I showed you being who Reality Warp in their own realms powerless. Scarlet Witch is not Multiversal nor Omniversal. Her power affects the Multiverse and Omiverse by accident however she never showed actual ability to actively effect these other universes. HoM Wanda is Universal Level with Backlash to other Multiverses. Why is she ranked so much higher again?
Anyway never did I say the God in Aarons run was beyond Universal, and I think you misunderstand that point from me.
@Killemall: @MzombieX: @CosmosTyrant: Alright the more info I been digging the more it seems people overestimate HoM Wanda by alot.
HoM Wanda seems no more powerful than Zadkiel was and further more had even less controle.
This chick Heather using a machine that warns of any reality alteration throughout the omniverse and saying only 616 earth was effected by wandas second reality alteration.
once again heather using the viewing station and saying wandas power didnt effect any other earth reality but 616 (this is during the first warp)
From I I gathered is she simply changed 616 and it rippled out to the Alternate Realies as a result.
Rachel as Green Phoenix change Realities of other Universe by Time Travel and changing the past. Is she Omniversal now?
All this tells me is she affected by accident some worlds of other realities and dimensions of Earth and Earth only. Only Earth.
Dr. Strange even claim he could reverse but not worth the risk. Is Dr. Strange Omniversal now? Hell no!
All this proves is the Realities of the Futur Timelines have no mutants. The Past remain intact it seems just fine since Wanda mainly affected the present and Realities that sprout from it.
Further more of the lack of control and IMPERFECT control of HoM Wanda is the fact her Reality Warping had major flaws in it.
As seen here the Skrull Queen like Logan knew what happen, retain her memory, and was relativity unaffected. Heck her Skrull Forces out in space beyond Earth were unaffected by any change.
This is proof alone of the Imperfect power of HoM Wabda period.
Then further proof of her limited power is places like Ultimate Universe remain completely untouched!
As I knew from AvX this impossible to reverse Spell was reverse quite easy by the Universal 616 Phoenix with no problems what so ever.
The whole point of Phoenix was to reverse said spell of the HoM Wanda.
Conclusion and Input
So far All I see is HoM Wanda who had very flawed Reality Warping over 616 Reality and rippled through to other realities by accident alone. All those Realities were furthermore future realities from 616 Present Reality.
So why does HoM Wanda stomp Ghost Rider who withstood a near equal power of Zadkiel that the author claim would altered the cosmos and Creation?
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
You never proved Ghost Rider is immune to reality wrapping and the scans you posted with Zadkiel didn't even indicate that he was using reality wrapping. Also if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, you would have to prove its on the same level as House of M Wanda's. No offense but you also seem to think transmutation is the same as reality wrapping.
really? where did I sau Transmutation is the same as Realty Warping. Quote me. I merely stated GR is immune to Reality Warping and Transmutation. You simply just want to pick fights and ignore my post. At least some people took the time to read the facts rather than taking your word Yahweh is Arron's version of God he used in his stories. I also dont try quoting Fan Made Wikis.
I don't have any intentions on picking fights. I am just correcting some errors. When I asked you to post scans of GR resisting reality wrapping, you posted a scan of Nul using transmutation on the GR, so I got the idea that you thought transmutation is the same as reality. You can call it a fan made wikia all you. Heck others on this thread quoted things from the 'fan made wikia' to prove you wrong and they were correct. I believe you are using fan made wikia as an strawman argument to dodge it, For the most part Marvel wikia is accurate. But even so I told you to look up Thor# 300 volume 1 in which Yahweh first appeared. Also U asked you again who is the Judo-Christian 'God' in Marvel if Yahweh is not it. It's certainly not the OAA...So does the Judo-Christian 'God' not exist in the Marvel universe, yet he was mention multiple times in the Marvel universe. I want to hear your statement. Again you're saying Fan Made Wikia's because that wikia totally messes up your whole argument.
Also I did not ignore a hint of what you said, you on the other hand ignored what me and others have said about House of M Wanda being beyond universal and the scans. So if you wanna say I'm ignoring what you're saying then you might want to look in the mirror.
Here is why I find the Wiki unacceptable.
You should proof of a god name Yahweh in Thor 300.
However that is as far as anything goes.
1) There is no quote, scan, or Source that shows Yahweh made Humans. None. All made up in a wiki with no source.
2) There is no proof Yahweh is the same God in Arron's GR run as God has never been referred to anything but simply God or Father.
3) The Name Yahweh is the name of the God Head of other Gods of Edom that the Jews used as the name for their God. So the Yahweh you showed at the council of God heads would be the God of Edom Gods.
4) Marvel Official Site has no info or source description for Yahweh
Over and above there is NO real connection in anything other than personal theory here of Yahweh being Arron's God.
As for my own knowledge of this god is that in the Ghost Rider comics back in the 70s and 80s had refered to the Judeo Christain God Almighty. We even had a Jesus stranger who banish Mephisto with ease.
This is not a new concept for GR comics.
Then we have Unidentified Angels still show in the 90s like Uriel.
A real Angel of great power in Christain mythology. This angel alone rival Mephisto in power. This one Angel.
Then in the 2000s we have more Angels than ever inluding Lucifer himself as a bonafied Hell Lord.
Even now we only have cryptic and walking on eggshells descriptions of Juedeo Christian God.
Again more Angels of vast power that been here before mankind exist. These 2 comment they should have stuck with the Dinosaurs. Where did they come from?
Even Dr. Strange is not FULLY understanding GR origins or where his power come from. The Sorcerer Supreme is clueless to GR potential and power source and knows only the basics.
as seen GR refers to the God of his power which created this dimension of lost Souls and Ghost Riders.
A whole Cosmos dedicate to Lost souls and Ghost Rider alone by God. Even caleb says here it Older than Earth. Older than the Eldar Gods then!
Heck know from Garth ennis that the Ghost Rider bu itself is equal to a Hell Lord and have their own Realm.
All are descriptions of this God that Jason Arron and Garth Ennis keep portraying in their GR titles.
Its a standing fact that God from the Judeo Christian faith is a long standing God in Ghost Rider series and GR series alone.
He has never been refereed to or called anything else but God, God Almighty, or the Father.
My Facts stand that the God backing GR is at the very least World Level and is a Divine power that easily banishes Hell Lords with his power. His Angels are Hell Lord powered alone. Lucifer alone is a mere Hell Lord in power to this God.
This Gods is older than Earth it would seem. Older than Odin and any Patheon as well the Eldar Gods.
This God has made its own Cosmos for Ghost Riders.
This God's power as claimed by arron's writing and the Angel Zadkiel will unmake the Cosmos.
All facts.
Zadkiel with all the power of this Almighty God could not kill or unmake the Ghost Riders who are Gods Wrath on earth.
Here is Jason Aaron's description of zadkiel power from God. Aaron says its the power to remake creation then who the hell can really argue that?
So when Zadkiel fails to Reality Warp them with the power over Creation of 616 earth (alot like wanda did, she affected Marvel Earth and nothing else in the universe) why should GR not be immune to Wanda Reality Warping power?
This is my argument and you will either agree or disagree.
I don't see enough evidence that places these Hell Lords, Angels, or whatever Judeo-Christian God above other Skyfathers & Hell Lords or Elder Demons such as Odin, Hela, Surtur & so on.
Many other pantheons speak of similar things. Odin is shown on panel speaking of how he created man. When Mjolnir was forged, it wiped out the dinosaurs. Beings like Bor & Surtur & Ymir are claimed to have been around since the dawn of time and helped fashion the universe & earth. There are classic scenes of Asgardian Gods watching the Earth cool. Doctor Strange may be unaware of the exact nature of the magics which fuel Ghost Rider & his Gods, but he has stated as much about the Asgardians and has spoken highly of Loki in the past - being not only a match or peer but having ancient knowledge that goes deeper than his. Doctor Strange has also commented that the Sorcerers of Atlantis have lost knowledge of the mystic arts he is unaware of. Every Pantheon has their creation stories & they each lay claim to their role in the creation. There isn't enough evidence that I can tell, which would place beings like Zadkiel or Zarathos above any other deities. These Hell Lords or Archangels most certainly aren't above Skyfathers such as Odin or Zeus and only perhaps this Judeo-Christian God itself may be on par in my opinion.
@MzombieX: I really wish you didnt quote the whole thing lol. alot of space being use to quote it.
If thats your judgement then so be it.
As for Odin hyperbole I have that Scan and in it it says Rumored he created man and the Earth. However we know its a flat out Hyperbole as Earth created the Edlar Gods and Eldar Gods energy created Bor and Surtur, and they in turn created Odin.
So its a flat out lie where there is no contradicting evidence to the Judeo Christian God mythos so far.
@CadenceV2: Perhaps i can. Wanda's reality warping, as in changing the reality was limited to 616 and 616 alone, which i agree. Even within 616 the reality warping was not perfect. The problem however is, her power did rip out of 616 earth, without her intending to, and destroyed countless realities, before an extremely amped up Megan chanelling the energy of nexus to all realities halted the warp and it killed her.
Lets try with proof.
Firstly, Chaos Wave's effect was at the very least multiversal, if not omniversal as stated in Die by the Sword
We see Wanda actually erasing a whole alternate reality outside 616.
Furthermore, when Megan in otherworld has a premonition of Chaos Wave she describe what is going to happen as "It is the end my love, of all that is, of all that would ever be", certainly looks like a good reference to omniverse.
Roma, the omniversal guardian, sees 6 realities wiped out, one reality has Thor as a fish, the other reality as Iron Man has a dinosaurs, i know the two realities because they have appeared on panel before during Excalibur volume 1.
When the chaos wave finally reach the otherworld, the central of all creation way outside 616 and in a different plane altogether, we see people from all dimensions (universe) suddenly crash together into one, and people who have been dead, for example: Mad James Jasper is brought back to life, a clear showing of entire multiverse being affected.
volume 1.
Furthemore, its clearly stated on panel if not stop the chaos wave will slag ALL realities, everything
Roma was so scared of Chaos Wave, she was willing to destroy entire 616 reality to save the omniverse.
The best summary of all this came during Die By the Sword 01, where it was clearly stated that HOM Wanda tore apart from omniverse and later fixed it.
Other showing of HOM Wanda's power
Dr. Strange tries to use his power to do something against Wanda, a sleeping Wanda, unconciously actually starts manipulating Dr. Strange's own power
Heck when push comes to shove she while still sleeping summons Dormammu, who himself has vowed never to enter earth, on earth to fight Dr. Strange.
She could very well call Dormammu to fend off Zarathos :p
HOM Wanda grants Genis so much power, entire universe starts blinking in and out of existence because he couldnt control the powers granted to him
We can agree to disagree, but thats just insane showing of power, sufficient i believe to beat Zarathos.
@Killemall: I see. well one thing is proven its uncontrollable and she has no finese with it.
Also what is the story I hear of here being Amped by Chthon (the Eldar God) and Life spring which allowed her this power to begin with? Wasnt it all in the end Chthon doing, the Chaos Wave?
@Killemall: I see. well one thing is proven its uncontrollable and she has no finese with it.
Agreed, also note sure you notice, in the first scan i posted, when Chaos Wave destroys entire reality, we see Phoenix Rachel unaffected by it. Zarathos could likely tanked that, i am however saying Wanda would likely win because her display of power, on panel has been better, but its unlikely Wanda would start the fight with releasing a massive chaos wave.
Also what is the story I hear of here being Amped by Chthon (the Eldar God) and Life spring which allowed her this power to begin with? Wasnt it all in the end Chthon doing, the Chaos Wave?
Wanda's power, normally, before HOM has always been manipulation of Chaos Magic, and hence Wanda power have always been connected to Chthon, after all he is pretty much the source of Chaos Magic.
Then all of a suddent we see Wanda do a feat, which contradicts her power level before Avengers Dissemble, yet till HOM ended no explaination was given how Wanda got such a huge amp. I am not sure if this has been referred in earlier issue, but during Avenger : Children Crusade it was clearly explained that Wanda was tapping into an extradimensional source of limitless power, called Life Entity. After having taken Wanda power Dr. Doom claim the power he got from Life Entity drawfs the power he got from Beyonder and he got the power from Beyonder only in Secret Wars 2.
In more recent Uncanny Avengers 3 from Marvel Now, this was reconfirmed. It was stated that Wanda can repeat what she did during HOM, provided she gets to tap into big enough energy source, and it sort of looks like a reference to HOM Wanda having tapped Life Entity during HOM.
So in short, her chaos magic is a part of Chthon, her HOM feat isnt.
@Killemall: Awsome thanks. Also what do ya think of my little bio on my gathering of the Jedeo Christian God from GR series?
I honestly like a straight answer (even tho I may not like it) from Marvel. It seems less embarrassing to go the Spawn (God, Satan, Man of Miracles) or DC (Lucifer, Micheal, Presence) rout yet Marvel wants to keep this childish nonsense of beings like Living Tribunal, Celestials (Walking Neon Light Armour) , and Eternity (a mass of moving universe clueless to the on goings of events) as the Hierarchy.... seems rather silly and put off.
Whether or not SW wins this depends on whether or not she can reality warp ghost rider....which I doubt by the way. I can think of many guaranteed wins for ghost rider
Why on earth does she need to warp Ghost Rider out of existence when her chaos wave can pwn him just fine.
@King-Stranglehold da first: Ask him something, if Zadkiel had the power of a god, how did he get pwned by a bunch of 15 dead ghost rider? Also ask him to show Marvel Hierachy ever including heaven as one having cosmic significance apart from the heaven shown on Fantastic Four which was revealed to be Marvel Headquarter..
Also dark magic, has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider, how come we ignore that?
Since when has magic been a weaknesss of ghost rider.....ill answer that question for u....NEVER! Magic can do some damage to a spirit of vengeance....but it is in no way ghost rider's kryptonite. Dr. Strange who was the sorcerer supreme hit ghost rider with one of his most powerful spells and it still did nothing to the rider. He healed instantly what in the world makes u think magic is gonna keep him down? If anything it will annoy him....but definately won't kill him
@MzombieX: I really wish you didnt quote the whole thing lol. alot of space being use to quote it.
If thats your judgement then so be it.
As for Odin hyperbole I have that Scan and in it it says Rumored he created man and the Earth. However we know its a flat out Hyperbole as Earth created the Edlar Gods and Eldar Gods energy created Bor and Surtur, and they in turn created Odin.
So its a flat out lie where there is no contradicting evidence to the Judeo Christian God mythos so far.
Anyway take it for what you will.
Agreed on that, didn't think about it initially when quoting the whole scan lol.
There has been a retcon of sorts or clarification with these origins involving the Elder Gods & Earth, but honestly I still see it as a bit of a mess in relation to where the Pantheons place and their difference in creationist legends contradicting each other. It may be viewed by you as hyperbole, yet seems like a strange thing for someone like Odin to simply lie about for no apparent reason. It's not exactly some attempt at bragging rights in the form of "I bet I could benchpress X amount." It's The All Father reflecting and recalling a story of events, that I can't believe he somehow just imagined or forgot he wasn't responsible for such a thing. The major point of Odin's disappointment in Thor's infatuation with Midgard and the mortals, has always been a reoccurring theme. Because he sees man as a great failure of his. Being reinforced in current scans, that he once again states to have created man, just adds to the confusion.
But yeah ... that's just the way I personally view the power level in relation to each other. I still don't view the Judeo-Christian Gods or Hell Lords as having feats to place them above the others. I don't see any creationist views found in Ghost Rider's lore, or from any Judeo-Christian Gods, to be any different or an exception to claims made by the other Pantheons.
But if we can't agree on where to establish someone like Zarathos or Zadkiel's power level, then it's difficult to form a discussion on where to take Wanda's power level ... and move on from there. So much respect to you & fair enough if we differ on that Cadence. Thanks for the debate.
Again we can agree-disagree because the Phoenix argument wasn't my main argument. And thank fo telling him about the Chaos waved which almost destroyed the omniverse, I tried telling him that.
@CadenceV2 said:
Aye..Sorry I too so like to reply...Something came up.
@King-Stranglehold da first said:
@CadenceV2 said:
@King-Stranglehold da first said:
@CadenceV2 said:
Yeah @Killemall. Who you going with anyway? Since some people refuse to acknowledge the shown proof of GR being Immune to Reality Warping.
You never proved Ghost Rider is immune to reality wrapping and the scans you posted with Zadkiel didn't even indicate that he was using reality wrapping. Also if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, you would have to prove its on the same level as House of M Wanda's. No offense but you also seem to think transmutation is the same as reality wrapping.
really? where did I sau Transmutation is the same as Realty Warping. Quote me. I merely stated GR is immune to Reality Warping and Transmutation. You simply just want to pick fights and ignore my post. At least some people took the time to read the facts rather than taking your word Yahweh is Arron's version of God he used in his stories. I also dont try quoting Fan Made Wikis.
I don't have any intentions on picking fights. I am just correcting some errors. When I asked you to post scans of GR resisting reality wrapping, you posted a scan of Nul using transmutation on the GR, so I got the idea that you thought transmutation is the same as reality. You can call it a fan made wikia all you. Heck others on this thread quoted things from the 'fan made wikia' to prove you wrong and they were correct. I believe you are using fan made wikia as an strawman argument to dodge it, For the most part Marvel wikia is accurate. But even so I told you to look up Thor# 300 volume 1 in which Yahweh first appeared. Also U asked you again who is the Judo-Christian 'God' in Marvel if Yahweh is not it. It's certainly not the OAA...So does the Judo-Christian 'God' not exist in the Marvel universe, yet he was mention multiple times in the Marvel universe. I want to hear your statement. Again you're saying Fan Made Wikia's because that wikia totally messes up your whole argument.
Also I did not ignore a hint of what you said, you on the other hand ignored what me and others have said about House of M Wanda being beyond universal and the scans. So if you wanna say I'm ignoring what you're saying then you might want to look in the mirror.
Here is why I find the Wiki unacceptable.
You should proof of a god name Yahweh in Thor 300.
However that is as far as anything goes.
1) There is no quote, scan, or Source that shows Yahweh made Humans. None. All made up in a wiki with no source.
2) There is no proof Yahweh is the same God in Arron's GR run as God has never been referred to anything but simply God or Father.
3) The Name Yahweh is the name of the God Head of other Gods of Edom that the Jews used as the name for their God. So the Yahweh you showed at the council of God heads would be the God of Edom Gods.
4) Marvel Official Site has no info or source description for Yahweh
Over and above there is NO real connection in anything other than personal theory here of Yahweh being Arron's God.
As for my own knowledge of this god is that in the Ghost Rider comics back in the 70s and 80s had refered to the Judeo Christain God Almighty. We even had a Jesus stranger who banish Mephisto with ease.
This is not a new concept for GR comics.
Then we have Unidentified Angels still show in the 90s like Uriel.
A real Angel of great power in Christain mythology. This angel alone rival Mephisto in power. This one Angel.
Then in the 2000s we have more Angels than ever inluding Lucifer himself as a bonafied Hell Lord.
Even now we only have cryptic and walking on eggshells descriptions of Juedeo Christian God.
Again more Angels of vast power that been here before mankind exist. These 2 comment they should have stuck with the Dinosaurs. Where did they come from?
Even Dr. Strange is not FULLY understanding GR origins or where his power come from. The Sorcerer Supreme is clueless to GR potential and power source and knows only the basics.
as seen GR refers to the God of his power which created this dimension of lost Souls and Ghost Riders.
A whole Cosmos dedicate to Lost souls and Ghost Rider alone by God. Even caleb says here it Older than Earth. Older than the Eldar Gods then!
Heck know from Garth ennis that the Ghost Rider bu itself is equal to a Hell Lord and have their own Realm.
All are descriptions of this God that Jason Arron and Garth Ennis keep portraying in their GR titles.
Its a standing fact that God from the Judeo Christian faith is a long standing God in Ghost Rider series and GR series alone.
He has never been refereed to or called anything else but God, God Almighty, or the Father.
My Facts stand that the God backing GR is at the very least World Level and is a Divine power that easily banishes Hell Lords with his power. His Angels are Hell Lord powered alone. Lucifer alone is a mere Hell Lord in power to this God.
This Gods is older than Earth it would seem. Older than Odin and any Patheon as well the Eldar Gods.
This God has made its own Cosmos for Ghost Riders.
This God's power as claimed by arron's writing and the Angel Zadkiel will unmake the Cosmos.
All facts.
Zadkiel with all the power of this Almighty God could not kill or unmake the Ghost Riders who are Gods Wrath on earth.
Here is Jason Aaron's description of zadkiel power from God. Aaron says its the power to remake creation then who the hell can really argue that?
So when Zadkiel fails to Reality Warp them with the power over Creation of 616 earth (alot like wanda did, she affected Marvel Earth and nothing else in the universe) why should GR not be immune to Wanda Reality Warping power?
This is my argument and you will either agree or disagree.
Like poster MzombieX said...There is nothing that indicates these Gods or hell-lords are above any Skyfathers. And also you continue to miss my point.
1. I asked you to research Thor #300 volume 10 yourself. Its hard to find information on Yahweh because he is not a major character. And he doesn't always go by Yahweh. I also asked you if Yahweh isn't the Judo-Christian God than who is?
2. That's a sucky argument. Yahweh goes by many names. Odin does by many names too...All-father, Baleyg, Biflindi, Eylúðr..In Mythology that is. Matter fact here are a bunch of names Odin is called.
So saying just because Aaron didn't refer to the Judo-Christian God as Yahweh is Void, because Yahweh goes by many names like other Gods. His names are Jehovah,Allah; Aton; Gimle; Eternity; Ulgen. He is just the abrahamic God of Marvel.
3. Again your trying to imply real life thinking into Marvel. And again I told you that he goes by different names. Marvel has already stated in comics that he is the Judo-Christian God. Marvel doesn't talk about him much because they don't want to show the abrahamic God as not as powerful in real life. Also Yahweh is just the old testament name of God. Nothing more and nothing less. Again that is just one of his names! Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all abrahamic religions. So there is your argument up in flames.
4. Again he is not that well known of a character. Just read this.
Yahweh is a member of the Council of God heads and that is not 'fan made' so you can't use 'fan made' as a cop out anymore. I even told you to look up Thor #300 which you have not done.
5. I don't know why you are being denial..I asked you who is the Judo-Christian God or Abrahamic God of Marvel if Yahweh is not it.
6. Good scans and all but they still don't prove your point. Yahweh goes by many names like other gods. Also you seem to forget that Yahweh is just Gods old testament name and nothing more. Again Christianity,Islam and Judaism is all under abrahamic. Also Jesus was already said to be Yahwehs son. Also know you have to prove the Abrahamic God or Jesus are above any other skyfathers.
7. Your scans with Dr Strange and referring of God are irrelevant, because like I said again Yahweh goes by many names and that is just God's old testament name.
8. Can you please prove that the Abrahamic God is older than Odin or Elder gods? Weren't you the one that said Elder Gods created Earth? Also in one of your scans Zadkiel states Heaven can be conquered...That just proves that Marvel's Arahamic God is no more powerful than any other God. Most of the stuff sounds like hyperboles.
9. Where has it been stated that Arahamic God in Marvel can unmake the Cosmos? Zadkiel was mostly effecting Earth...And that seemed to be his limit.
10. Again in your scans it doesn't state Zadkiel couldn't 'unmake the Ghost Riders'. Most of it sounds like hyperbole. Also I believe me and others already got on you about characters claiming to be omnipotent. Zadkiel saying he is omnipotent again doesn't gain him any weight...I'll just make a point again. Here the Sentry is stated to be near omnipotent.
We know that isn't true, because the Sentry has not done anything that can put him on that level. Zadkiel saying he is omnipotent and can unmake things sounds like a hyperbole because he has not even done anything that could put him on that kind of level.
11. Again sounds like a hyperbole...Me and others already already stated many characters in Marvel have stated to be omnipotent or have Godlike powers. I already made a point with Odin and even Sentry. We still don't even know how powerful Marvel's Judo-Christian God is, and Marvel made him seemed like he was no more powerful then Odin or Zues, Your going to say Yahweh is not Marvels Judo-Chirstian God, but again many Gods have many names, and Yahweh is just Gods name from the old testament. Again with that scan. Zadkiel was not showing reality wrapping powers, he never showed it in the comics. And Zadkiel even stated "I can kill you if I wanted to." There were no implications from the scan what so ever that Zadkiel was using reality wrapping powers or Ghost Riders were immune to it. I read the scan very carefully. It seemed like Zadkiel was kiling everyone physically with his sword. Why not use his reality powers(if he even has one) to kill everyone easily. I did not see any reality wrapping going on.
Even if Zadkiel was using reality wrapping, it only seemed global, while Wanda's was universal. And likeme, Killemall and others stated. She doesn't have to use reality wrapping but release the chaos wave.
Whether or not SW wins this depends on whether or not she can reality warp ghost rider....which I doubt by the way. I can think of many guaranteed wins for ghost rider
Why on earth does she need to warp Ghost Rider out of existence when her chaos wave can pwn him just fine.
@King-Stranglehold da first: Ask him something, if Zadkiel had the power of a god, how did he get pwned by a bunch of 15 dead ghost rider? Also ask him to show Marvel Hierachy ever including heaven as one having cosmic significance apart from the heaven shown on Fantastic Four which was revealed to be Marvel Headquarter..
Also dark magic, has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider, how come we ignore that?
Zadkiel having the power of God sounds like a hyperbole.
"Anyway never did I say the God in Aarons run was beyond Universal, and I think you misunderstand that point from me." My apologies for misunderstanding the point you where trying to make.
I can see what you are saying. If she docent have control over her power how can she beat GR. Like shown in the tread already, Without having control over her power she only had to say "NO MORE MUTANTS" An a wave of destruction was unleash threw the Omniverse and other realities. She was thinking of only mutants; need to keep that in mind. That's why i think she wins this.
And thank's for not doing like most GR fans. Saying something without proving it. And been a good debater.
Wee won't agree in thing's. But i did learn a few thing's about GR.
@CosmosTyrant: No Prob. Anyway I think almost everything to be said has been on this thread by everyone at this point. Im out for good with this. Peace.
Been a lot of hasbeens in comics claiming to be God in the past. Why should this one be different? Especially since he says "Soon I will know Omnipotence"
But from the other scans descriptions. Yeah, that does look like it's implied to be God.(Not referring to the Random Blue-angel guy)
@CadenceV2: Ok, as asked i read through majority of your argument, which are good. I think it was meant to be God's power, as in GR God's power during Heavens on Fire, but i found something peculiar, the best feat from this so called God was creating humanity (something Odin claim to have done, something Gaea claims to have done as well), and banishing hell lords, when we have seen Atum make a mockary of 7 hell lords together, doesnt say a lot about his power level though. The rest stuffs of unmaking a cosmos, we say similar claim from Surtur, in fact he was going to burn the very multiverse, by channeling his universal power to otherworlds.
I think while GR's god , being well God in one religion, i see very little for us to suggest he was a lot more powerful perhaps on same level as Odin or slightly above.
@CadenceV2: Ok, as asked i read through majority of your argument, which are good. I think it was meant to be God's power, as in GR God's power during Heavens on Fire, but i found something peculiar, the best feat from this so called God was creating humanity (something Odin claim to have done, something Gaea claims to have done as well), and banishing hell lords, when we have seen Atum make a mockary of 7 hell lords together, doesnt say a lot about his power level though. The rest stuffs of unmaking a cosmos, we say similar claim from Surtur, in fact he was going to burn the very multiverse, by channeling his universal power to otherworlds.
I think while GR's god , being well God in one religion, i see very little for us to suggest he was a lot more powerful perhaps on same level as Odin or slightly above.
@CadenceV2: Ok, as asked i read through majority of your argument, which are good. I think it was meant to be God's power, as in GR God's power during Heavens on Fire, but i found something peculiar, the best feat from this so called God was creating humanity (something Odin claim to have done, something Gaea claims to have done as well), and banishing hell lords, when we have seen Atum make a mockary of 7 hell lords together, doesnt say a lot about his power level though. The rest stuffs of unmaking a cosmos, we say similar claim from Surtur, in fact he was going to burn the very multiverse, by channeling his universal power to otherworlds.
I think while GR's god , being well God in one religion, i see very little for us to suggest he was a lot more powerful perhaps on same level as Odin or slightly above.
I can see that. Its all about personnel preference. Like I know all these Angels like Zadkiel, Kazaar, Uriel, and Lucifer are Hell Lords in power and still far below this God who bestows a Vestige of his power to the Ghost Riders who are also Hell Lords level. Also the creation of Heaven and several Hell Dimensions is enough for me to rate this God on the same level Odin IMO.
I like the mystery to in a way that surrounds the Judeo Christian at times and guess it be improper of Marvel to have a official stand and showing of God which would insult or offend religious types. :).
Also dark magic, has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider, how come we ignore that?
Since when has magic been a weaknesss of ghost rider.....ill answer that question for u....NEVER! Magic can do some damage to a spirit of vengeance....but it is in no way ghost rider's kryptonite. Dr. Strange who was the sorcerer supreme hit ghost rider with one of his most powerful spells and it still did nothing to the rider. He healed instantly what in the world makes u think magic is gonna keep him down? If anything it will annoy him....but definately won't kill him
Did you not read my reply?
Dark, Chaos Magic has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider. How about you explain why Hellverine totally pwned Ghost Rider , or how about you tell me how Daredevil during Shadow Land story arc totally own Ghost Rider.
Ghost Rider and Zarathos are class 2 demons, why wouldnt an attack capable of slagging entire omniverse not outright kill them. Zarathos was actually intentionally created to be below Mephisto, and we know how reality warping of unviersal potential does to Mephisto.
I get the feeling you love to wank Ghost Rider's ability.
Also dark magic, has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider, how come we ignore that?
Since when has magic been a weaknesss of ghost rider.....ill answer that question for u....NEVER! Magic can do some damage to a spirit of vengeance....but it is in no way ghost rider's kryptonite. Dr. Strange who was the sorcerer supreme hit ghost rider with one of his most powerful spells and it still did nothing to the rider. He healed instantly what in the world makes u think magic is gonna keep him down? If anything it will annoy him....but definately won't kill him
Did you not read my reply?
Dark, Chaos Magic has always been a weakness for Ghost Rider. How about you explain why Hellverine totally pwned Ghost Rider , or how about you tell me how Daredevil during Shadow Land story arc totally own Ghost Rider.
Ghost Rider and Zarathos are class 2 demons, why wouldnt an attack capable of slagging entire omniverse not outright kill them. Zarathos was actually intentionally created to be below Mephisto, and we know how reality warping of unviersal potential does to Mephisto.
I get the feeling you love to wank Ghost Rider's ability.
Actually both shadow Land and Hellverine are legit showings against a Human Control GR. Magic is the main way to harm any GR and that is a fact. However the power difference between Alejendra and Zarathos is as large as Thor and Odin.
Actually both shadow Land and Hellverine are legit showings against a Human Control GR. Magic is the main way to harm any GR and that is a fact. However the power difference between Alejendra and Zarathos is as large as Thor and Odin.
Granted both were human control, we have seen how a class 2 demon, in his place of power fares against a reality warper of universe order, let alone someone as HOM Wanda.
Not to mention that power difference between Hellverine and Shadow Land Demon vs HOM Wanda, is as large as the power difference between Odin and Living Tribunal.
There is absolutely no reason to believe Zarathos could even hope to tank the chaos wave.
@I_am_Warlock: Im pretty sure they were. Unless Blaze got his curse back. I have all the GRs up to Fear, then quit caring as Blaze wasnt in it. Who was the GR?
@I_am_Warlock: Im pretty sure they were. Unless Blaze got his curse back. I have all the GRs up to Fear, then quit caring as Blaze wasnt in it. Who was the GR?
Against Hellverine, Dan Ketch and against Shadowland Johnny Blaze.
@I_am_Warlock: Good to know JB is back. I have to pick that up.
Shadow Land took place in 2010 before Johny lost GR to Alexendra.
Also i thought GR solo was canceled, havent been following defenders but i would say GR appearance anytime soon is doubtful but read Shadow Land if you can if not for story then for Clayton Crain's art.
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