#1 Edited by Anal_Vomit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

Gandalf The White Vs Dumbledore.

Morals on.

Gandalf has 1 day prep.

Edited

  • They start 15 meters apart.

Edited: Dumbledore doesn't have has the elder wand.

Edited: Dumbledore has no prep. 2 days prep

Location: Hogwarts.

Dumbledore gets no help from his students and teachers.

Now Dumbledore doesn't get curb stomped. .

Win by Death or KO.

#2 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

Gandalf fries Dumbledore with lightning.

#3 Edited by Anal_Vomit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

Gandalf fries Dumbledore with lightning.

Wouldn't Dumbledore do the same to Gandalf.

#4 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash said:

Gandalf fries Dumbledore with lightning.

Wouldn't Dumbledore do the same to Gandalf.

Gandalf's lightning fried an entire horde of goblins. Dumbledore's got deflected by a bald man with no nose.

#5 Edited by Anal_Vomit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: Yes but bald dude also had magic with him to defend himself, Goblins aren't capable of deflecting lighting.

#6 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: Yes but bald dude also had magic with him to defend himself, Goblins aren't capable of deflecting lighting.

The fact remains that Gandalf fried an entire horde of enemies, whilst Dumbledore struggled with one. Also, if Gandalf cuts down the distance (5 metres isn't a whole lot of distance, and Gandalf's faster than an old man should be), he can just kill him with his sword.

Also what's to stop him from deflecting Dumbledore's spells and then heating the wand until it burns Dumbledore's hand and he drops it?

Nothing, that's what.

#7 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@anal_vomit said:

@sideslash: Yes but bald dude also had magic with him to defend himself, Goblins aren't capable of deflecting lighting.

The fact remains that Gandalf fried an entire horde of enemies, whilst Dumbledore struggled with one. Also, if Gandalf cuts down the distance (5 metres isn't a whole lot of distance, and Gandalf's faster than an old man should be), he can just kill him with his sword.

Also what's to stop him from deflecting Dumbledore's spells and then heating the wand until it burns Dumbledore's hand and he drops it?

Nothing, that's what.

That's equivalent to saying

"The fact remains that I killed 30 ants by stepping on them, whilst Chuck Liddel(sp) struggled with one (Rampage Jackson); therefore I would own Chuck Liddel."
They are two different species and everything. How you can even think comparing them makes any sense is beyond me.
Anyway, if you want to do that, I believe Dumbledore took on a horde of undeads when he went to find one of the Horocruxes(sp), and he was weakened when he did so. Dumbledore was able to move fast enough that Harry, a young adult, couldn't keep track of his movements.

Whats to stop Dumbledore from deflecting anything Gandalf does?

Nothing, that's what.

Anyway, Gandalf wins. You gave him 1 day prep, and his powers have been shown to be more powerful than Dumbledores, for the most part

#8 Edited by Pfcoolio14 (1139 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash:

Well the fact remains that those enemies weren't capable of defending themselves with the same level of magic that Gandalf displayed. Dumbledore and Voldemort were almost on par with each other so of course he'd be able to defend himself from a simple lightning attack.

And to the cutting down Dumbledore, wouldn't that be made a whole lot harder on Gandalf considering the fact that Dumbledore can teleport and also fly which is something that Gandalf hasn't done or been shown capable of doing.

The thing stopping Gandalf from doing that is that Dumbledore can do the exact same thing to Gandalf. In hindsight, he could just blow the entire staff to smithereens with a reducto spell. Or cut it in half with Sectumsempra. Dumbledore has shown in the Harry Potter series a far greater, wider, and versatile range of magic than Gandalf has. Also, his is infinite and he hasn't been shown to get tired. Gandalf literally said his is finite and he has been shown to get tired when he exerts himself.

Ps As for the whole whorde of defenseless goblins things, Dumbledore did defeat an army of Inferi that were guarding a Horcrux. They're basically super strong undead corpses that are immune to pain.

#9 Posted by schillenger420 (821 posts) - - Show Bio

I want Dumbledore to win this because I honestly think he has more feats of pure magical ability, and probably has more tricks up his sleeve.... but this is almost set up like a spite thread. Even without prep Gandalf has more pure combat feats. We know Gandalf can not only sling spells but his sword as well.... Gandalf will take this 10/10. Now if you give Dumbledore say.... two days prep, and access to Hogwarts... maybe the fight even takes place there.... I could see the big D takin it..... The way this is set up though.... yeah Gandalf in a spite stomp.

#10 Posted by Anal_Vomit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't Dumbledore have way too much more feats of magical ability than Gandalf, I mean like 5 meters of a man running, He could cast the reducto spell on his sword. Then it would just be based on magic. And dumbledore has a pretty good defense.

#11 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

What feats/abilities does Gandalf have that are so impressive?

#12 Posted by Anal_Vomit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

Uh right, I've done my research on Gandalf, ima give Dumbledore a chance. . by giving him prep time and the elder wand. .

#13 Edited by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (5791 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: In the movies he held back a lot because he's not supposed to have a large influence over people's lives. He's supposed to be more powerful in the books and he killed Belroc in the movie.

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#14 Edited by AetherTech (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Going off of all the cannon material available, Gandalf is a Maiar, and potentially one of the most powerful beings in the LOTR universe. Having read the available collective works of Tolkien I have this to say.

Give Dumbledore the help from all the wizards (good and evil)of his respective universe and all the elder wands you want and it still won't be enough. Gandalf was sent to middle-earth to help the people of middle-earth fight the Great Enemy, but he was sworn(forbidden) to never use his real powers there; and in doing so was still able defeat a Balrog of Morgoth (the Enemy); and also had in his possession a sword forged in Gondolin, the Glamdring; as well as the Ring of Fire Narya from the elvish lord and shipwright.

Even though Gandalf appeared human, because he was a Maiar he possessed far greater physical strength, endurance and mental power then any human, elf, dwarf or orc/goblin.

Now, I can't remember exactly what Tolkien book I read it in, but somewhere it was stated, that had Gandalf fallen to the temptation of the One Ring; he would have easily dominated middle-earth; and even the Valar (proverbial demigods/gods of Tolken-Verse)

In the end, no matter how you dice it, Gandalf will curb-stomp Dumbledore like he's an old rag; or a broken toy. You're trying to compare to a wizard (human) to what essentially amounts to a demigod in greater-then-human flesh.

#15 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@norrinboltagonprime21: If we're going by movie versions then I think Dumbledore's got this. I see no reason why he couldn't reflect lighting that killed the Balrog (or just finish it before it gets to that point since Gandalf was in rough shape), and use his superior speed and reactions to finish him off.

Dumbledore is more powerful in the books too. :D

#16 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (5791 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: I wouldn't know, I never saw the movies or read the Harry Potter books. I'll just take your word for it. :)

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#17 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@norrinboltagonprime21: They're okay when you're younger but then you begin to see the flaws in her writing. :P

#18 Edited by AetherTech (5 posts) - - Show Bio

If Dumbledore tried to fight the Balrog, we'd be callin'him Dumbledore the "I painted my robes" Brown.

#19 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: LOL. Here's what's funny.

Gandalf has mentioned he needs FUEL for his magic. Dumbledore needs no fuel.

Gandalf's lightning fried an entire horde of goblins. Dumbledore's got deflected by a bald man with no nose.

That bald man was the second most powerful dark wizard ever. The bald man is above peak-human capabilities. That bald man effortlessly fought aurors and McGonagall during the battle of Hogwarts. That bald man speedblitzed Harry Potter (who has regular human capabilities).

Also what's to stop him from deflecting Dumbledore's spells and then heating the wand until it burns Dumbledore's hand and he drops it?

Show me Gandalf deflecting a spell, ever. Show me it. Give me a canon source. Show me, in books, Gandalf heating up weapons and deflecting an arrow. You can't because he hasn't. Plus, Dumbledore can simply scorch Gandalf with a fire storm.

The fact remains that Gandalf fried an entire horde of enemies, whilst Dumbledore struggled with on

Struggled? Wow. Dumbledore even admitted he wasn't trying to kill Voldemort and kicked his butt! Voldemort was litterilly running away. Hell, Voldemort himself said Dumbledore was the only wizard he feared. Plus, the books mentioned Dumbledore easily stopped 3 death eaters (who would have taken out those "enemies" Gandalf fried with a word).

@imboredletsdebate

Anyway, Gandalf wins. You gave him 1 day prep, and his powers have been shown to be more powerful than Dumbledores, for the most part

No.. Gandalf is in his human form. He has never gone out of his human form. If this guy had said Gandalf in his full form then Dumbledore would die, but in his human form Dumbledore wins fairly easily for Gandalf's feats are vague.

@mirrorwave4

We know Gandalf can not only sling spells but his sword as well.... Gandalf will take this 10/10. Now if you give Dumbledore say.... two days prep, and access to Hogwarts... maybe the fight even takes place there.... I could see the big D takin it..... The way this is set up though.... yeah Gandalf in a spite stomp.

And Dumbledore can wave his wand and destroy that sword with reductor.

@aethertech

Give Dumbledore the help from all the wizards (good and evil)of his respective universe and all the elder wands you want and it still won't be enough

He doesn't need that help. He is said to be powerful then any other wizard that ever lived, even more skillful then Gindewald.

, but he was sworn(forbidden) to never use his real powers there; and in doing so was still able defeat a Balrog of Morgoth (the Enemy); and also had in his possession a sword forged in Gondolin, the Glamdring; as well as the Ring of Fire Narya from the elvish lord and shipwright.

And Gandalf has never gone into his full form (his unrestricted god form) so we can't say he'll do it here. The Glamdring can also be destroyed by Reductor!

Even though Gandalf appeared human, because he was a Maiar he possessed far greater physical strength, endurance and mental power then any human, elf, dwarf or orc/goblin.

Let's be real here: It is a FACT Gandalf has never gone into his full Maiar form to fight. Which means he won't do it here. In his human form, as mentioned, he CAN be hurt/killed.

Now, I can't remember exactly what Tolkien book I read it in, but somewhere it was stated, that had Gandalf fallen to the temptation of the One Ring; he would have easily dominated middle-earth; and even the Valar (proverbial demigods/gods of Tolken-Verse)

Source please.

In the end, no matter how you dice it, Gandalf will curb-stomp Dumbledore like he's an old rag; or a broken toy. You're trying to compare to a wizard (human) to what essentially amounts to a demigod in greater-then-human flesh.

Let's break this down: Gandalf is in a human form and has NEVER gone into his full form, where he's very powerful. In his human form he's prone to be hurt and to die. So, protego, confundo, Explosu, Confringo, transfiguration can simply end Gandalf. What then? We are not garunteed that Eru will bring him back, for Saruman was left to wander the world as a sad and lonely spirit. So, jelly legs curse then a reducto for the glamdring, then he can fry Gandalf by creating a fire storm to come directly upon him.

Dumbledore wins here.

#20 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@aethertech: Nope. Balrogs have been killed by simple rivers. Dumbledore has efficentcy in water magic and can simply drench a Balrog in water.

#21 Posted by Jmarshmallow (5146 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore has more skills in magic so I give it to dumbedore. Gandalf is a better character IMO.

#23 Edited by AetherTech (5 posts) - - Show Bio

@aethertech: Nope. Balrogs have been killed by simple rivers. Dumbledore has efficentcy in water magic and can simply drench a Balrog in water.

Fallacious argument, how much water does it take to quench a balrog? Can Dumbledore summon an entire river from nothing? Also, to the individual claiming that Dumbledore can "reducto" away Glamdring...its ridiculous. Glamdring is a powerful magical sword forged by the elves of Gondolin, for a elven king. It is no simple sword. over 6000 years old; and still sharp and gleaming when taken from the troll hoard. I don't think Reducto would work on it. And Gandalf may have never gone into his maiar form; but that wasn't a restriction given in the topic. So why the hell wouldn't he use his full powers even in his human form?

#24 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@aethertech:

Fallacious argument, how much water does it take to quench a balrog?

A simple drop fall of water would kill a balrog. The strongest of the balrog was killed by a River.

Can Dumbledore summon an entire river from nothing

Something of a river, yes. In the books when he encased Voldemort in water that looked like molten glass that came from nowhere.

Also, to the individual claiming that Dumbledore can "reducto" away Glamdring...its ridiculous. Glamdring is a powerful magical sword forged by the elves of Gondolin, for a elven king. It is no simple sword. over 6000 years old;

What is the indication that Reducto will not work on the Galmdrig? What is the indication that expelliarmus will not work on disarming the Glamdrig? There are none.

and still sharp and gleaming when taken from the troll hoard. I don't think Reducto would work on it

When has a spell been used against the Glamdrig and failed? What indication, besides your personal opinion, shows the Glamdrig resisting a spell that blows solid objects into tiny small pieces?

And Gandalf may have never gone into his maiar form; but that wasn't a restriction given in the topic. So why the hell wouldn't he use his full powers even in his human form?

Because he has never used it, as the white nor the gray, has he gone into his gull maiar form. If he has then give me the source. He hasn't, so we can safely assume he won't do it and Dumbledore will win.

#25 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash said:

@anal_vomit said:

@sideslash: Yes but bald dude also had magic with him to defend himself, Goblins aren't capable of deflecting lighting.

The fact remains that Gandalf fried an entire horde of enemies, whilst Dumbledore struggled with one. Also, if Gandalf cuts down the distance (5 metres isn't a whole lot of distance, and Gandalf's faster than an old man should be), he can just kill him with his sword.

Also what's to stop him from deflecting Dumbledore's spells and then heating the wand until it burns Dumbledore's hand and he drops it?

Nothing, that's what.

That's equivalent to saying

"The fact remains that I killed 30 ants by stepping on them, whilst Chuck Liddel(sp) struggled with one (Rampage Jackson); therefore I would own Chuck Liddel."

They are two different species and everything. How you can even think comparing them makes any sense is beyond me.

Anyway, if you want to do that, I believe Dumbledore took on a horde of undeads when he went to find one of the Horocruxes(sp), and he was weakened when he did so. Dumbledore was able to move fast enough that Harry, a young adult, couldn't keep track of his movements.

Whats to stop Dumbledore from deflecting anything Gandalf does?

Nothing, that's what.

Anyway, Gandalf wins. You gave him 1 day prep, and his powers have been shown to be more powerful than Dumbledores, for the most part

But Gandalf can still heat up DUmbledore's wand and burn his hand, making him drop it, a la what he did to Aragorn's sword.

#26 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: Ah, I've missed you.

  • No, Gandalf does not require "fuel" for his magic. He never has.
  • "Second most powerful dark wizard ever"? What, like, more powerful than Salazar Slytherin? Gellert Grindelwald, people who have been stated to be so powerful only Dumbledore could kill them?
  • So, he's above peak human capabilities? Proof please. There's nothing that indicates he's a match for Gandalf's physical stats (Fighting Orcs and Uruk-Hai keeps you in good shape).
  • This is Gandalf the White. Gandalf the White is "Saruman as he should have been". In their fight, Saruman was shown as being able to deflect Gandalf's spells. Also, Gandalf the White was able to break Saruman's mind control over Theoden with such a powerful magical assault he knocked Saruman off his plinth.
  • "That bald man speedblitzed Harry Potter (who has regular human capabilities)." Exactly. Regular human capabilities. He also missed him, several times in both the books and the films. He also eventually had to resort to one of Harry's well-known weaknesses in order to salvage what can be considered a Pyrrhic defeat.

Show me, in books, Gandalf heating up weapons and deflecting an arrow. You can't because he hasn't.

I have something superior. How's about mindraping:

Gimli gazed with wide eyes for a while, as step by step the figure drew nearer. Then suddenly, unable to contain himself longer, he burst out: 'Your bow, Legolas! Bend it! Get ready! It is Saruman. Do not let him speak, or put a spell upon us! Shoot first!'

Legolas took his bow and bent it, slowly and as if some other will resisted him. He held an arrow loosely in his hand but did not fit it to the string.

And again:

'Now!' said Gimli. 'Stop him, Legolas!'

'Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?' said the old man. 'Put away that bow, Master Elf!'

The bow and arrow fell from Legolas' hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.

'And you, Master Dwarf, pray take your hand from your axe-haft, till I am up! You will not need such arguments.'

Gimli started and then stood still as stone, staring, while the old man sprang up the rough steps as nimbly as a goat. All weariness seemed to have left him. As he stepped up on to the shelf there was a gleam, too brief for certainty, a quick glint of white, as if some garment shrouded by the grey rags had been for an instant revealed The intake of Gimli's breath could be heard as a loud hiss in the silence.

Heating up weapons and disarming people, and destroying an arrow in midflight:

The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.

So what was that about speedblitzing? Because Gandalf was "too quick for [Aragorn]" and was effortlessly able to disarm Gimli, heat up Aragorn's sword and is at least an arrow timer.

Gandalf takes the speed competition.

#27 Edited by nerdork (4038 posts) - - Show Bio

Hasnt this been done before? Didnt Gandalf already reign supreme?

#28 Posted by theONEtaichou (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

sad...

Dumbledore win effortlessly...

good day

#29 Edited by joshmccloud1 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Gandalf > Balrog

Dumbledore < Balrog

Gandalf > Dumbledore

It's simple math. There are two instances in which Gandalf blocks spells/magic.

1. Gandalf blocks giant flaming sword of Balrog in Moria

2. Gandalf blocks fireball spell when confronting Saruman after the battle of Helm's Deep.

Both are in the books. Gandalf could just block all of Dumbledore's spells, casually stroll up to him, and plunge Glamdring into Dumbledore's frail mortal heart. Besides, Maiar magic is far older and more powerful than anything that can be taught in an english boarding school.

#30 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: I've missed you, too. (:

Now let's start with your factually incorrect post.

  • No, Gandalf does not require "fuel" for his magic. He never has.

Yes, he does. He couldn't even burn simple snow, all mighty Gandalf, praise he who can't burn snow.

Fellowship of the Ring - The Ring Goes South. After the big snowstorm on Caradhras.

"But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow."

Book II, Chapter 3, BTW.

His magic, also proved by that quote, is limited. While Dumbledore could non-verbally and wandlessly turn snow into scorched fields of ash and dust.

  • "Second most powerful dark wizard ever"? What, like, more powerful than Salazar Slytherin? Gellert Grindelwald, people who have been stated to be so powerful only Dumbledore could kill them?

We've seen very little battle feats from Salazar.

Yes, Gellert is more powerful then Voldemort, but after Gellert died Voldemort became the most powerful Dark wizard of that timw.

  • So, he's above peak human capabilities? Proof please. There's nothing that indicates he's a match for Gandalf's physical stats (Fighting Orcs and Uruk-Hai keeps you in good shape).

When Avada Kedavra blew apart a centaur into tons of pieces, before the fragments even hit the floor, Gandalf had the reflexes to non-verbally create a fire whip and wrap it around Voldemort.

Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip.- Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, the Only One he ever feared.

Can a regular human react before HUNDREADS of fragments that have been shattered hits the floor? No.

At the very same moment, when the Fawkes was blown crippled and flightless by Voldemort's magic, Dumbledore slinged his wand towards the Snake which had been an instant from killing him and made the Snake dissapear.

Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. At the same moment, Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement--the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke;- Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

A normal, regular human olympic athlete couldn't even react at the levels Dumbledore has reacted at. A human can't react instantly to anything, atleast a regular old man. You underestimate Headmaster Dumbledore.

Gandalf the Grey NOR Gandalf the White has EVER been in this situation before. EVER. There's also something else to note: I couldn't find the occourence where Gandalf used lightning. Here's what I found:


Then Gandalf lit up his wand. Of course it was Gandalf; but just then they were too busy to ask how he got there. He took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave. It made no trouble whatever of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all the prisoners free as quickly as possible. This sword's name was Glamdring the Foe-hammer, if you remember. The goblins just called it Beater, and hated it worse than Biter if possible. Orcrist, too, had been saved; for Gandalf had brought it along as well, snatching it from one of the terrified guards. Gandalf thought of most things; and though he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight comer.-Taken from: The Hobbit, Chapter 4

So, great all mighty Gandalf, kiss his feet because he's a immortalmaiarawesomeyoushallnotpasslololol, had to use a SWORD to fight through Goblins. Wow. Dumbledore would have simply sent a sweep of fire to decimate them to ash. Gandalf is, always will be, pathetic.

  • This is Gandalf the White. Gandalf the White is "Saruman as he should have been". In their fight, Saruman was shown as being able to deflect Gandalf's spells. Also, Gandalf the White was able to break Saruman's mind control over Theoden with such a powerful magical assault he knocked Saruman off his plinth.

This is a feat. However, Dumbledore also helped Harry break Voldemort's hold on him.


For the first time, Dumbledore sounded frightened. Harry could not see why: the hall was quite empty but for themselves, the sobbing Bellatrix still trapped under the witch statue, and the baby phoenix Fawkes croaking feebly on the floor--'

Then Harry's scar burst open and he knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance--

He was gone from the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body ended and the creatures began: they were fused together, bound by pain, and there was no escape--

And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move ...

'Kill me now, Dumbledore ...'

Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again ...

'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ...'

Let the pain stop, thought Harry ... let him kill us ... end it, Dumbledore ... death is nothing compared to this ...

And I'll see Sirius again ...

And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creatures coils loosened, the pain was gone; Harry was lying face down on the floor, his glasses gone, shivering as though he lay upon ice, not wood ...

And there were voices echoing through the hall, more voices than there should have been ... Harry opened his eyes, saw his glasses lying by the heel of the headless statue that had been guarding him, but which now lay flat on its back, cracked and immobile. He put them on and raised his head a little to find Dumbledore's crooked nose inches from his own.

'Are you all right, Harry?'

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.

That bald man speedblitzed Harry Potter (who has regular human capabilities)." Exactly. Regular human capabilities. He also missed him, several times in both the books and the films. He also eventually had to resort to one of Harry's well-known weaknesses in order to salvage what can be considered a Pyrrhic defeat.

You always bring this up. I sware, Voldemort had Harry trembling to him and could have killed him at any time during this time frame:

Let's review what stopped Voldemort from killing Harry the first time. Hear it from The One Who Can't Be Named himself.

"You know, of course, that they have called this boy my downfall?" Voldemort said softly, his red eyes upon Harry, whose scar began to burn so fiercely that he almost screamed in agony. "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen....I could not touch the boy."

Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek.

"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice....This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it...but no matter. I can touch him now."-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

So, the SACRIFICE, the old magic as he should have remembered. Oh, and believe me, he touched Harry.

Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with the pain. Voldemort laughed softly in his ear, then took the finger away and continued addressing the Death Eaters.-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Goblet of fire.

Voldemort had the full ability to murder Potter during this period, he chose not to. Don't believe me?

Why...by using Bertha Jorkins's information, of course. Use my one faithful Death Eater, stationed at Hogwarts, to ensure that the boy's name was entered into the Goblet of Fire. Use my Death Eater to ensure that the boy won the tournament - that he touched the Triwizard Cup first - the cup which my Death Eater had turned into a Portkey, which would bring him here, beyond the reach of Dumbledore's help and protection, and into my waiting arms. And here he is...the boy you all believed had been my downfall...."

Voldemort moved slowly forward and turned to face Harry. He raised his wand.

"Crucio!"

It was pain beyond anything Harry had ever experienced; his very bones were on fire; his head was surely splitting along his scar; his eyes were rolling madly in his head; he wanted it to end...to black out...to die...-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

If Voldemort would have done a simply AK, Harry Potter would have died and been forgotten.

I have something superior. How's about mindraping:

That is vague. Gimil said it was Saruman, then it said an old man (which Saruman is) this is confusing/vague and no indication that it's Gandalf unless it explicitly states it. Thus can't be used as a feat. On the issue of Mind rape, it has been stated that Dumbledore is a very skilled Occlumens and Legilimens. Snape mentions Voldemort, who is also a master Legilimens, has the ability to control, unhinge..Know what? I'l just let you see for yourself.

Severus Snape: "It appears there is a connection between the Dark Lord's mind and your own. Whether or not he is aware of this connection is for the moment unclear. Pray he remains ignorant."
Harry Potter: "You mean if he knows about it, then he'll be able to read my mind?"
Severus Snape: "Read it, control it, unhinge it. In the past it was often the Dark Lord's pleasure to invade the minds of his victims, creating visions designed to torture them into madness. Only after extracting the last exquisite ounce of agony, only when he had them literally begging for death would he finally...kill them."
-Taken from: Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Now, let's get through this.
"Read it, control it, unhinge it" - Snape, Taken from Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Now, it does validly mention that there is a special connection, which one can factually assume only Harry is subjected to his mind being taken over. Right? Yeah, wrong.
Snape has something else to say.
" In the past it was often the Dark Lord's pleasure to invade the minds of his victims, creating visions designed to torture them into madness. Only after extracting the last exquisite ounce of agony, only when he had them literally begging for death would he finally...kill them." -Taken from: Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Wait, so did he have a connection with his victims? Harry is the ONLY person in the Rowlingverse that he had a mental link with, yet he invaded the minds, controlled the minds and unhinged the minds of many victims before Harry.
Since Dumbledore is also a master legilimens we can safely assume he can also do mind control. Plus, Gandalf will not be able to mind rape him:
Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then said, 'Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen, this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence.'-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Occlumency,
And we obviously know Legilimency can do mind rape, so we can safely say Occlumency stops mind rape.

Heating up weapons and disarming people, and destroying an arrow in midflight:

You have a point. However, Dumbledore can easily disarm people with nothing but a flick of his wand, as he is a master of non-verbal magic. But I will argue the fact that Dumbledore reacted before something could kill him at instant is on par with destroying an arrow.

So what was that about speedblitzing? Because Gandalf was "too quick for [Aragorn]" and was effortlessly able to disarm Gimli, heat up Aragorn's sword and is at least an arrow timer.

Me and Prince Aragon once argued that Dumbledore and Voldemort are atleast bullet timers in terms of speed. You can find that arguement on this thread:

Here.

Aragon is a normal human and would easily die to the kinds of Dumbledore. I am not shocked he was nearly taken down so easily.

Also, tell me, can I have the source for those quotes? I've given you a source for everything.

Now the burden of proof is on you.

#31 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmccloud1:

Gandalf > Balrog

Dumbledore < Balrog

Gandalf > Dumbledore

And a river > a Balrog, too. Because Balrogs have been killed by simple rivers. Sense that is the case then Dumbledore can drench one in water and make a continous waterfall above the Balrog's head until it burns out.

It's simple math. There are two instances in which Gandalf blocks spells/magic.

First of all, THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT HE CAN BLOCK HARRY POTTER SPELLS. Both of universes are very different, magic is very different.

1. Gandalf blocks giant flaming sword of Balrog in Moria

And Dumbledore could have used the freezing charm on the entire Balrog as a whole.

2. Gandalf blocks fireball spell when confronting Saruman after the battle of Helm's Deep.

This is factually incorrect. Here's what really happened in Canon:

"'I did not give you leave to go,' said Gandalf sternly. 'I have not finished. You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots. Stay then! But I warn you: you will not easily come out again. Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you, Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.' He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. 'Go!' said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away." - Lord of the Rings; The Two Towers.

If you have proof Gandalf can block Harry Potter magic then please give it to me.

Both are in the books

Factually incorrect, lie, lie and lie. See above.

Gandalf could just block all of Dumbledore's spells, casually stroll up to him, and plunge Glamdring into Dumbledore's frail mortal heart.

This made me laugh so hard. You should become a comedian, man. There is no indication that the Glamdrig can not be cracked, chipped, or broken. Dumbledore can easily fire reducto at the Glamdring. Dumbledore also has the ability to go invisible, go around Gandalf, then fire a severing charm at his torso (which would kill him). If he tried to casually stroll up then Dumbledore can simply transform the ground below Gandalf into a pit of lava, killing all mighty Gandalf.

Give me facts here.

#32 Edited by ImBoredLetsDebate (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: I've missed you, too. (:

Now let's start with your factually incorrect post.

  • No, Gandalf does not require "fuel" for his magic. He never has.

Yes, he does. He couldn't even burn simple snow, all mighty Gandalf, praise he who can't burn snow.

Fellowship of the Ring - The Ring Goes South. After the big snowstorm on Caradhras.

"But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow."

Book II, Chapter 3, BTW.

His magic, also proved by that quote, is limited. While Dumbledore could non-verbally and wandlessly turn snow into scorched fields of ash and dust.

  • "Second most powerful dark wizard ever"? What, like, more powerful than Salazar Slytherin? Gellert Grindelwald, people who have been stated to be so powerful only Dumbledore could kill them?

We've seen very little battle feats from Salazar.

Yes, Gellert is more powerful then Voldemort, but after Gellert died Voldemort became the most powerful Dark wizard of that timw.

  • So, he's above peak human capabilities? Proof please. There's nothing that indicates he's a match for Gandalf's physical stats (Fighting Orcs and Uruk-Hai keeps you in good shape).

When Avada Kedavra blew apart a centaur into tons of pieces, before the fragments even hit the floor, Gandalf had the reflexes to non-verbally create a fire whip and wrap it around Voldemort.

Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip.- Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, the Only One he ever feared.

Can a regular human react before HUNDREADS of fragments that have been shattered hits the floor? No.

At the very same moment, when the Fawkes was blown crippled and flightless by Voldemort's magic, Dumbledore slinged his wand towards the Snake which had been an instant from killing him and made the Snake dissapear.

Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. At the same moment, Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement--the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke;- Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

A normal, regular human olympic athlete couldn't even react at the levels Dumbledore has reacted at. A human can't react instantly to anything, atleast a regular old man. You underestimate Headmaster Dumbledore.

Gandalf the Grey NOR Gandalf the White has EVER been in this situation before. EVER. There's also something else to note: I couldn't find the occourence where Gandalf used lightning. Here's what I found:

Then Gandalf lit up his wand. Of course it was Gandalf; but just then they were too busy to ask how he got there. He took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave. It made no trouble whatever of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all the prisoners free as quickly as possible. This sword's name was Glamdring the Foe-hammer, if you remember. The goblins just called it Beater, and hated it worse than Biter if possible. Orcrist, too, had been saved; for Gandalf had brought it along as well, snatching it from one of the terrified guards. Gandalf thought of most things; and though he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight comer.-Taken from: The Hobbit, Chapter 4

So, great all mighty Gandalf, kiss his feet because he's a immortalmaiarawesomeyoushallnotpasslololol, had to use a SWORD to fight through Goblins. Wow. Dumbledore would have simply sent a sweep of fire to decimate them to ash. Gandalf is, always will be, pathetic.

  • This is Gandalf the White. Gandalf the White is "Saruman as he should have been". In their fight, Saruman was shown as being able to deflect Gandalf's spells. Also, Gandalf the White was able to break Saruman's mind control over Theoden with such a powerful magical assault he knocked Saruman off his plinth.

This is a feat. However, Dumbledore also helped Harry break Voldemort's hold on him.

For the first time, Dumbledore sounded frightened. Harry could not see why: the hall was quite empty but for themselves, the sobbing Bellatrix still trapped under the witch statue, and the baby phoenix Fawkes croaking feebly on the floor--'

Then Harry's scar burst open and he knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance--

He was gone from the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body ended and the creatures began: they were fused together, bound by pain, and there was no escape--

And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move ...

'Kill me now, Dumbledore ...'

Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again ...

'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ...'

Let the pain stop, thought Harry ... let him kill us ... end it, Dumbledore ... death is nothing compared to this ...

And I'll see Sirius again ...

And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creatures coils loosened, the pain was gone; Harry was lying face down on the floor, his glasses gone, shivering as though he lay upon ice, not wood ...

And there were voices echoing through the hall, more voices than there should have been ... Harry opened his eyes, saw his glasses lying by the heel of the headless statue that had been guarding him, but which now lay flat on its back, cracked and immobile. He put them on and raised his head a little to find Dumbledore's crooked nose inches from his own.

'Are you all right, Harry?'

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.

That bald man speedblitzed Harry Potter (who has regular human capabilities)." Exactly. Regular human capabilities. He also missed him, several times in both the books and the films. He also eventually had to resort to one of Harry's well-known weaknesses in order to salvage what can be considered a Pyrrhic defeat.

You always bring this up. I sware, Voldemort had Harry trembling to him and could have killed him at any time during this time frame:

Let's review what stopped Voldemort from killing Harry the first time. Hear it from The One Who Can't Be Named himself.

"You know, of course, that they have called this boy my downfall?" Voldemort said softly, his red eyes upon Harry, whose scar began to burn so fiercely that he almost screamed in agony. "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen....I could not touch the boy."

Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek.

"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice....This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it...but no matter. I can touch him now."-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

So, the SACRIFICE, the old magic as he should have remembered. Oh, and believe me, he touched Harry.

Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with the pain. Voldemort laughed softly in his ear, then took the finger away and continued addressing the Death Eaters.-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Goblet of fire.

Voldemort had the full ability to murder Potter during this period, he chose not to. Don't believe me?

Why...by using Bertha Jorkins's information, of course. Use my one faithful Death Eater, stationed at Hogwarts, to ensure that the boy's name was entered into the Goblet of Fire. Use my Death Eater to ensure that the boy won the tournament - that he touched the Triwizard Cup first - the cup which my Death Eater had turned into a Portkey, which would bring him here, beyond the reach of Dumbledore's help and protection, and into my waiting arms. And here he is...the boy you all believed had been my downfall...."

Voldemort moved slowly forward and turned to face Harry. He raised his wand.

"Crucio!"

It was pain beyond anything Harry had ever experienced; his very bones were on fire; his head was surely splitting along his scar; his eyes were rolling madly in his head; he wanted it to end...to black out...to die...-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

If Voldemort would have done a simply AK, Harry Potter would have died and been forgotten.

I have something superior. How's about mindraping:

That is vague. Gimil said it was Saruman, then it said an old man (which Saruman is) this is confusing/vague and no indication that it's Gandalf unless it explicitly states it. Thus can't be used as a feat. On the issue of Mind rape, it has been stated that Dumbledore is a very skilled Occlumens and Legilimens. Snape mentions Voldemort, who is also a master Legilimens, has the ability to control, unhinge..Know what? I'l just let you see for yourself.

Severus Snape: "It appears there is a connection between the Dark Lord's mind and your own. Whether or not he is aware of this connection is for the moment unclear. Pray he remains ignorant."
Harry Potter: "You mean if he knows about it, then he'll be able to read my mind?"
Severus Snape: "Read it, control it, unhinge it. In the past it was often the Dark Lord's pleasure to invade the minds of his victims, creating visions designed to torture them into madness. Only after extracting the last exquisite ounce of agony, only when he had them literally begging for death would he finally...kill them."
-Taken from: Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Now, let's get through this.
"Read it, control it, unhinge it" - Snape, Taken from Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Now, it does validly mention that there is a special connection, which one can factually assume only Harry is subjected to his mind being taken over. Right? Yeah, wrong.
Snape has something else to say.
" In the past it was often the Dark Lord's pleasure to invade the minds of his victims, creating visions designed to torture them into madness. Only after extracting the last exquisite ounce of agony, only when he had them literally begging for death would he finally...kill them." -Taken from: Chapter 24, Occlumency, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Wait, so did he have a connection with his victims? Harry is the ONLY person in the Rowlingverse that he had a mental link with, yet he invaded the minds, controlled the minds and unhinged the minds of many victims before Harry.
Since Dumbledore is also a master legilimens we can safely assume he can also do mind control. Plus, Gandalf will not be able to mind rape him:
Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then said, 'Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen, this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence.'-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Occlumency,
And we obviously know Legilimency can do mind rape, so we can safely say Occlumency stops mind rape.

Heating up weapons and disarming people, and destroying an arrow in midflight:

You have a point. However, Dumbledore can easily disarm people with nothing but a flick of his wand, as he is a master of non-verbal magic. But I will argue the fact that Dumbledore reacted before something could kill him at instant is on par with destroying an arrow.

So what was that about speedblitzing? Because Gandalf was "too quick for [Aragorn]" and was effortlessly able to disarm Gimli, heat up Aragorn's sword and is at least an arrow timer.

Me and Prince Aragon once argued that Dumbledore and Voldemort are atleast bullet timers in terms of speed. You can find that arguement on this thread:

Here.

Aragon is a normal human and would easily die to the kinds of Dumbledore. I am not shocked he was nearly taken down so easily.

Also, tell me, can I have the source for those quotes? I've given you a source for everything.

Now the burden of proof is on you.

10/10, you've turned me

get it? ;)

No, but seriously. Good points and evidence. I thought Dumbledore would win, in a straight fight, but figured that he would lose considering how powerful Gandalf is suppose to be, but, yes, by feats. Dumbledore owns Gandalf.

#33 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: Hrm...

First point is invalid. That's Gandalf the Grey, far weaker than his White incarnation.

Also, show you the point when he's used lightning? If it please you.

Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks. There were six to each dwarf, at least, and two even for Bilbo; and they were all grabbed and carried through the crack, before you could say tinder and flint. But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrible flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.

So he went from sleep to ZAP! Crispy goblins.

Yes, exactly. Voldemort's personality is going to play against him here. He's a torturer. He wants to make his victims suffer, and that's why he consistently loses. He can't just go for a straight kill.

Also, you're a fine one to speak of factual incorrectness, mister "letsworshipdumbledorecouldkillanywizardsupermegalordofharrypotterinvincibleheadmaster". The Balrog DID NOT DIE FROM THE RIVER.

As Gandalf stated in The Two Towers, The White Rider:

'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. 'Long time I fell,' he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. 'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'

'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.

'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dum: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'

'Long has that been lost,' said Gimli. 'Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.'

'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.

'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

So the Balrog survived the fall from a height that cannot be measured, even by the Dwarves, fell into a colossal lake, and was partially extinguished, but still had it's strength. They then fought from the very bottom of Khazad-Dum, through tunnels lost to legend, and to the top of a mountain before Gandalf managed to beat it. Also shows it standing in a freakin blizzard, fire going, with zero fcks given. If a blizzard isn't affecting the Balrog's flame, Dumbledore won't be putting it out with Aguamenti.

#34 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: Thank you for giving me a very short argument.

First point is invalid. That's Gandalf the Grey, far weaker than his White incarnation.

And the Grey has the most combat feats, and the Grey is the only version that used fire.

Also, show you the point when he's used lightning? If it please you.

Source, please? I would really, really like sources for these qoutes before I can say yes.

Also, the only occurances he used lightning we as his Grey form, too.

Also, you're a fine one to speak of factual incorrectness, mister "letsworshipdumbledorecouldkillanywizardsupermegalordofharrypotterinvincibleheadmaster". The Balrog DID NOT DIE FROM THE RIVER.

There are many Balrogs. The one you are referring to, Durin's bane, didn't die from a river. However, the greatest Balrog of all time, the head Captain of all the Balrogs was outsmarted by a simple Elven man and died to...A river.

Yep. Echthelion, an average elven man, slammed a sword into Gothmog (the greatest Balrog ever) and he fell into a river. The sword didn't kill him, the River quenched the flames that kept him alive. I could not find the quote, but it is Book of the Lost Tales 2, Chapter 3. So, Durin's bane did not fall into a river, but the most strongest ,, greatest Balrog did, and died.

So the Balrog survived the fall from a height that cannot be measured, even by the Dwarves, fell into a colossal lake, and was partially extinguished, but still had it's strength. They then fought from the very bottom of Khazad-Dum, through tunnels lost to legend, and to the top of a mountain before Gandalf managed to beat it. Also shows it standing in a freakin blizzard, fire going, with zero fcks given. If a blizzard isn't affecting the Balrog's flame, Dumbledore won't be putting it out with Aguamenti.

First off, there's multiple Balrogs. Second thing, it is a FACT that the greatest Balrog's flames were quenched by waters of a LAKE. Third, Dumbledore randomly drew up a hydrokenetic spell when he incased Voldemort in water. It was not Aguamenti. He can manipulate Water, fire, etc to his will, which means if concentrated he can have a continious waterfall come down upon the Balrog until it's flames are quenched.

So, if the greatest Balrog (in Tolkien's words) is put out by a river, then I believe Dumbledore's magic will work perfectly..

#35 Edited by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash: Thank you for giving me a very short argument.

First point is invalid. That's Gandalf the Grey, far weaker than his White incarnation.

And the Grey has the most combat feats, and the Grey is the only version that used fire.

Also, show you the point when he's used lightning? If it please you.

Source, please? I would really, really like sources for these qoutes before I can say yes.

Also, the only occurances he used lightning we as his Grey form, too.

Also, you're a fine one to speak of factual incorrectness, mister "letsworshipdumbledorecouldkillanywizardsupermegalordofharrypotterinvincibleheadmaster". The Balrog DID NOT DIE FROM THE RIVER.

There are many Balrogs. The one you are referring to, Durin's bane, didn't die from a river. However, the greatest Balrog of all time, the head Captain of all the Balrogs was outsmarted by a simple Elven man and died to...A river.

Yep. Echthelion, an average elven man, slammed a sword into Gothmog (the greatest Balrog ever) and he fell into a river. The sword didn't kill him, the River quenched the flames that kept him alive. I could not find the quote, but it is Book of the Lost Tales 2, Chapter 3. So, Durin's bane did not fall into a river, but the most strongest ,, greatest Balrog did, and died.

So the Balrog survived the fall from a height that cannot be measured, even by the Dwarves, fell into a colossal lake, and was partially extinguished, but still had it's strength. They then fought from the very bottom of Khazad-Dum, through tunnels lost to legend, and to the top of a mountain before Gandalf managed to beat it. Also shows it standing in a freakin blizzard, fire going, with zero fcks given. If a blizzard isn't affecting the Balrog's flame, Dumbledore won't be putting it out with Aguamenti.

First off, there's multiple Balrogs. Second thing, it is a FACT that the greatest Balrog's flames were quenched by waters of a LAKE. Third, Dumbledore randomly drew up a hydrokenetic spell when he incased Voldemort in water. It was not Aguamenti. He can manipulate Water, fire, etc to his will, which means if concentrated he can have a continious waterfall come down upon the Balrog until it's flames are quenched.

So, if the greatest Balrog (in Tolkien's words) is put out by a river, then I believe Dumbledore's magic will work perfectly..

But the White is far superior.

The water spell is Aguamenti.

You're claiming that Tolkien said this, and you aren't giving me a source on that. And Durin's Bane survived having its flames quenched, so by feats, Durin's Bane has superior surviving capability than Gothmog.

The lightning feat comes from the Hobbit, the Balrog fight from the Two Towers. (The Chapter is called The White Rider) (as I said).

#36 Posted by schillenger420 (821 posts) - - Show Bio

Props to the Op for changing the rules. Now this is an actual fight and not a curbstomp. If Dumbledore is willing to use the killing curse.... by definition there's no blocking that spell.... It can miss, you can hide behind a table or something and shield yourself that way, but it can't be blocked by magical means.... if that spell hits, Gandalf's dead. Also there's the home-field advantage here.... Dumbledore knows that school inside and out... between the prep, the wand, and the setting for the battle I'm going Dumbledore on this one... say 7/10.

#37 Posted by dondave (36581 posts) - - Show Bio

Gandalf

#38 Edited by Chibi_cute (4524 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15 said:

What feats/abilities does Gandalf have that are so impressive?

Gandalf fell hundred miles below the ground and fought and defeated the demon balrog for 8 days straight without rest from the lowest dungeon from the highest peak.

#39 Posted by schillenger420 (821 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute: Technically that battle was a draw. They killed each other and Gandalf got rez'd as something more than what he was.

#40 Posted by Chibi_cute (4524 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute: Technically that battle was a draw. They killed each other and Gandalf got rez'd as something more than what he was.

No they never killed each other Gandalf killed the balrog first. killing each other is different gandalf only died of exhaustion and hunger.

#41 Edited by Parallax_Hal_Jordan (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks:

I did not read (yet) this book,but doing a quick search on it,i found this quotes regarding Gothmog's death:

"There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters"

"Of the deeds of desperate valour there done, by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, much is told in The Fall of Condolin: of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other, and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the people of his household, until the tower was overthrown: and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin"

"Ecthelion 'was that lord of the house of the Fountain, who had the fairest voice and was most skilled in musics of all the Gondothlim. He won renown for ever by his slaying of Gothmog son of Melko, whereby Tuor was saved from death but Ecthelion was drowned with his foe in the king's fountain.'"

"Gothmog 'was a son of Melko and the ogress Fluithuin and his name is Strife-and-hatred, and he was Captain of the Balrogs and lord of Melko's hosts ere fair Ecthelion slew him at the taking of Gondolin"

If,by any chance,i omitted the quote you were talking about,it was not on purpose

#42 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash:

But the White is far superior.

I need feats.

The water spell is Aguamenti.

Actually, Dumbledore manipulated water to incase Voldemort like that. Aguamenti can not be manipulated. It is clearly described as a jet of clear, drinkable water.

"The Water-Making Spell conjures clean, drinkable water from the end of the wand."
—An excerpt from Book of Spells

You're claiming that Tolkien said this, and you aren't giving me a source on that. And Durin's Bane survived having its flames quenched, so by feats, Durin's Bane has superior surviving capability than Gothmog.

You're telling me the Lord of the Balrogs, high General, son of Morgoth (who blew up stars...) is weaker then Durin's Bane? Also, I thank Parallax for getting the quote. I';ve been looking for it all night.

"There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters"

"Of the deeds of desperate valour there done, by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, much is told in The Fall of Condolin: of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other, and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the people of his household, until the tower was overthrown: and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin"

"Ecthelion 'was that lord of the house of the Fountain, who had the fairest voice and was most skilled in musics of all the Gondothlim. He won renown for ever by his slaying of Gothmog son of Melko, whereby Tuor was saved from death but Ecthelion was drowned with his foe in the king's fountain.'"

Gothmog 'was a son of Melko and the ogress Fluithuin and his name is Strife-and-hatred, and he was Captain of the Balrogs and lord of Melko's hosts ere fair Ecthelion slew him at the taking of Gondolin - From The Book of the Lost Tales, Chapter III.

Let's highlight key notes.

"There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell;

So, the Lord of the Balrogs, SON OF MORGOTH, GENERAL OF THE BALROGS IS WEAKER THEN DURIN'S BANE? You are honestly going too far with that statement.

"Ecthelion 'was that lord of the house of the Fountain, who had the fairest voice and was most skilled in musics of all the Gondothlim. He won renown for ever by his slaying of Gothmog son of Melko, whereby Tuor was saved from death but Ecthelion was drowned with his foe in the king's fountain.'"-From The Book of Lost Tales II, Chapter 3.

He drowned in the River (which is the fountain). If the general of the Balrogs can be killed by a river, if the son of Melkor/Morgoth can be killed by a river, then Dumbledore can kill him. Wish to dispute? Back it up with evidence.

#43 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm waiting..

#44 Posted by The Stegman (23982 posts) - - Show Bio

Judging solely by movies, since I haven't read the Lotr books, I say Dumbledore.

#45 Posted by Arathorn_II (168 posts) - - Show Bio

There are many Balrogs. The one you are referring to, Durin's bane, didn't die from a river. However, the greatest Balrog of all time, the head Captain of all the Balrogs was outsmarted by a simple Elven man and died to...A river.

Yep. Echthelion, an average elven man, slammed a sword into Gothmog (the greatest Balrog ever) and he fell into a river. The sword didn't kill him, the River quenched the flames that kept him alive. I could not find the quote, but it is Book of the Lost Tales 2, Chapter 3. So, Durin's bane did not fall into a river, but the most strongest ,, greatest Balrog did, and died.

So the Balrog survived the fall from a height that cannot be measured, even by the Dwarves, fell into a colossal lake, and was partially extinguished, but still had it's strength. They then fought from the very bottom of Khazad-Dum, through tunnels lost to legend, and to the top of a mountain before Gandalf managed to beat it. Also shows it standing in a freakin blizzard, fire going, with zero fcks given. If a blizzard isn't affecting the Balrog's flame, Dumbledore won't be putting it out with Aguamenti.

First off, there's multiple Balrogs. Second thing, it is a FACT that the greatest Balrog's flames were quenched by waters of a LAKE. Third, Dumbledore randomly drew up a hydrokenetic spell when he incased Voldemort in water. It was not Aguamenti. He can manipulate Water, fire, etc to his will, which means if concentrated he can have a continious waterfall come down upon the Balrog until it's flames are quenched.

So, if the greatest Balrog (in Tolkien's words) is put out by a river, then I believe Dumbledore's magic will work perfectly..

You speak very lightly about the Elves. I get that in your world Elves are very underestamated creatures, but in the Tolkien universe, and especially in the first Age, Elves are extremely powerfull. I really don't see Dumbledore taking on a Balrog, let alone Gothmog. Dumbledore is simply to old and slow to do anything before the Balrog slammed his sword into his head. Also, Gothmog might be killed by the River, but only because he already fought, and lost, from Ecthelion.

"There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters"

The bold is were it's said that Ecthelion is not ''an average elven man''. An other quote:"Ecthelion 'was that lord of the house of the Fountain, who had the fairest voice and was most skilled in musics of all the Gondothlim.'' Never, ever, call Ecthelion of the Fountain an ''average elven man'' again. You can also see that they both drowned. It wasn't the water itself that putted it out, but he had no chance of coming up and so there was no chance of relighting his fire.

@joshmccloud1:

Gandalf > Balrog

Dumbledore < Balrog

Gandalf > Dumbledore

And a river > a Balrog, too. Because Balrogs have been killed by simple rivers. Sense that is the case then Dumbledore can drench one in water and make a continous waterfall above the Balrog's head until it burns out.

No, because the Balrog would still be able to slam Dumbledore away, or even just walk from the place Dumbledore is trying to create a waterfall.

It's simple math. There are two instances in which Gandalf blocks spells/magic.

First of all, THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT HE CAN BLOCK HARRY POTTER SPELLS. Both of universes are very different, magic is very different.

This also means that Harry Potter spells might not even affect Gandalf, or any other creature in Middle-Earth, however, a sword works perfectly in both universes. This would mean that Gandalf would win.

1. Gandalf blocks giant flaming sword of Balrog in Moria

And Dumbledore could have used the freezing charm on the entire Balrog as a whole.

Well, no, you can't freeze flames or shadows.


2. Gandalf blocks fireball spell when confronting Saruman after the battle of Helm's Deep.

This is factually incorrect. Here's what really happened in Canon:

"'I did not give you leave to go,' said Gandalf sternly. 'I have not finished. You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots. Stay then! But I warn you: you will not easily come out again. Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you, Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.' He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. 'Go!' said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away." - Lord of the Rings; The Two Towers.

If you have proof Gandalf can block Harry Potter magic then please give it to me.

This piece out of the book, might not say that gandalf can block a fireball, but it speaks of an even greater fead. He breaks his staff, this means that Gandalf can probably break Dumbledores wand as well.


Gandalf could just block all of Dumbledore's spells, casually stroll up to him, and plunge Glamdring into Dumbledore's frail mortal heart.

This made me laugh so hard. You should become a comedian, man. There is no indication that the Glamdrig can not be cracked, chipped, or broken. Dumbledore can easily fire reducto at the Glamdring. Dumbledore also has the ability to go invisible, go around Gandalf, then fire a severing charm at his torso (which would kill him). If he tried to casually stroll up then Dumbledore can simply transform the ground below Gandalf into a pit of lava, killing all mighty Gandalf.

Give me facts here.

  • No, Gandalf does not require "fuel" for his magic. He never has.

I personally don't think Reducto can break Glamdring. The Elves learned how to craft swords from the Valar themselves. They also posses some sort of magic. For example, the swords glow blue when Orcs are nearby. The sword Anglachel even talked to Túrin. You've also said yourself that we don't know how HP magic would react to The Tolkien Universe. You need to see things from both sides. You can't just say: ''There is no indication that the Glamdrig can not be cracked, chipped, or broken.'' because there also is no indication that he can be broken, let alone by a Reducto. Something else is that you are hammered on getting ''facts'', but you don't give any evidence that Dumbledore can create a pit of lava, or even go invisible. Ofcourse can go look up if he can do this, and I'm willing to do that, but only if you stop pussying about ''facts''.


  • So, he's above peak human capabilities? Proof please. There's nothing that indicates he's a match for Gandalf's physical stats (Fighting Orcs and Uruk-Hai keeps you in good shape).

When Avada Kedavra blew apart a centaur into tons of pieces, before the fragments even hit the floor, Gandalf had the reflexes to non-verbally create a fire whip and wrap it around Voldemort.

Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip.- Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, the Only One he ever feared.

Can a regular human react before HUNDREADS of fragments that have been shattered hits the floor? No.

At the very same moment, when the Fawkes was blown crippled and flightless by Voldemort's magic, Dumbledore slinged his wand towards the Snake which had been an instant from killing him and made the Snake dissapear.

Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. At the same moment, Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement--the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke;- Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

A normal, regular human olympic athlete couldn't even react at the levels Dumbledore has reacted at. A human can't react instantly to anything, atleast a regular old man. You underestimate Headmaster Dumbledore.

Gandalf the Grey NOR Gandalf the White has EVER been in this situation before. EVER. There's also something else to note: I couldn't find the occourence where Gandalf used lightning. Here's what I found:

Then Gandalf lit up his wand. Of course it was Gandalf; but just then they were too busy to ask how he got there. He took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave. It made no trouble whatever of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all the prisoners free as quickly as possible. This sword's name was Glamdring the Foe-hammer, if you remember. The goblins just called it Beater, and hated it worse than Biter if possible. Orcrist, too, had been saved; for Gandalf had brought it along as well, snatching it from one of the terrified guards. Gandalf thought of most things; and though he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight comer.-Taken from: The Hobbit, Chapter 4

So, great all mighty Gandalf, kiss his feet because he's a immortalmaiarawesomeyoushallnotpasslololol, had to use a SWORD to fight through Goblins. Wow. Dumbledore would have simply sent a sweep of fire to decimate them to ash. Gandalf is, always will be, pathetic.


I'm sure Anthony Kelly could do the same if he had magic, so, no, not ''above peak of human capability's''. A snake like Nagini, sitting on the floor, and I knew she was there, probably attacking me somewhere on the chest or face, I'm sure most people with good reactions could do the same thing. I'm not saying it's not impresive, but it's not ''above peak of human capability's''. Where gandalf however has fought The Balrog for days without rest, and that's ''above peak of human capability's''. You're calling Gandalf pathetic, but atleast he DID something, even if it was with a sword, what Dumbledore probably even couldn't lift without magic, or breaking his wrist. Dumbledore just sat in his chamber in his school, not doing any fuck, or even helping Harry a little. That's what I call pathetic. Letting a little boy do all of his dirty work. He could have done it all by himself. He is smart and even powerfull enough to do it, but no, he just watched Harry doing all the hard work. That's what I call pathetic. Gandalf fought. He fought entire battles, a Balrog and he even fought in a battle he knew he wasn't able to win, just to give Frodo and Sam some more time. Dumbledore had a plan of letting him get killed, but only because he was already ding and it even failed. Well, that's what I call pathetic and not Gandalf actually doing something what Dumbledore will never be capable of. And don't start to say that Gandalf ''can't use magic on Dumbledore's level'', because he can, maybe not when he's in his mortal and restricted form, but he can when he is in his true Maia spirit. Dumbledore couldn't even handle any battle gandalf was in. Maybe he can scorch 3 Goblins at once, but he would die in the Battle of the Pellenor Fields. That's what I call pathetic.

#46 Edited by GalacticRavenous (350 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Dumbledore is much more powerful and experienced. Gandalf struggles with gheists and Orcs.

Dumbledore conjures magic and use it soon. Like charging the magic and then he says the word to unleash it. Gandalf have to put his staff on the ground and say something and it takes like 20 sec until he can unleash the magic.