Wow I guess this is the thread thats gonna go on until it gets locked. WOW Can I join in?
Gandalf the White vs Emperor Palpatine
@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:
What an incredibly stupid frame of reasoning...
If a surgeon saves a dying cancer patient's life, the full credit of that would obviously go to the surgeon. The receiver of that which is already given can't take any credit for the GIVING. The passenger doesn't take ANY credit for moving from one location to another if a driver was there to take him. Do you even know what a feat is?
Here. Let me break it down for you:
feat (n) -
aremarkable,skilful,ordaringaction;exploit;achievement:featsofstrength The shield surrounding Gandalf displayed some resistance to energy PROJECTION based attacks. In some instances, the Force doesn't actually require you to be directly in front of a person or occupying the same breathing space of said person for it to work. The telekinetic facet of the Force could easily bypass Gandalf's shield and crush him from the inside and out, especially when harnessed by a Force wielder of Palpatine's level. TK isn't even projected so there's absolutely NO way Gandalf is going to avoid that. AT ALL.
What spells are you referring to that could possibly point to a STOMP in a Gandalf's favor, exactly? The only slightly significant things you've mentioned so far were the fireball, lightning, the 'magic shield', and Gandalf's reversing of Saruman's hold on Theoden King. Felt from miles away? That was because Saruman was obviously controlling him from miles away and he felt it when the spell was then broken and the breaking of the spell drove him out. That says nothing of the gravity of Gandalf's spells as far as that should go.
When it comes to the Book Versions: Sidious destroys Gandalf before either of them can see each other blink.
As for the movie versions: DEBATABLE.
It IS the REAL Palpatine, regardless of the fact that each body he uses is a facsimile of the original. His essence-transfer ability allows him to come back as much as he wishes, contrary to Gandalf's dependence upon Eru to do the same apparently.
There you go with the low-balling again.
Luke CAN actually defeat Gandalf, given the extent of his experience and training he currently has.
It's not about the content of one's abilities, but the QUALITY. There are different levels of Force Wielding in which different facets of the Force can be accessed by certain wielders. Some force users can heal, some force users can't. Some force users can do even more extraordinary things like summon black holes, force storms, and force destructions.
Ridiculous. So basically, what your argument boils down to, is that the ONLY explanations you have for Gandalf's defense against Palpatine's attacks are A) Gandalf has magic, B) Gandalf has magic, and C) Gandalf has magic.
What feats has Gandalf ever done to show resistance against high end telepathic attacks (doesn't even have to be the Force, since that doesn't exist in LOTR)?
Otherwise, Palpatine still takes this in a clean stomp.
Win
For informational sake (though I doubt this will help), I want to see some things. Show me Gandalf having reaction capable of seeing sublight speed ships in slow-motion:
Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Which is already far beyond Gandalf's capacity for reaction.
But even if he did have such a reaction speed, he would have lacked the ability to react to Palpatine (in fact he would have lacked the ability to even see Palpatine):
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.
-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith
I believe it is quite imaginable that certain Dark Side Force powers can obliterate Gandalf. Palpatine has mastered all Dark Side powers and techniques, and created his own ones at leisure:
Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.
--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook (credit to Silver2467)
With Essence Transfer, Palpatine can simply possess Gandalf within the space of death, even if he did die (yes, I know he won't).
Here he uses a Wormhole (before he has mastered it) to transport his spirit across the galaxy:
The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Droga to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier Pestage was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body.
--Taken from Gamer #5 (credit to Silver2467)
With purely the force of will, Palpatine's spirit (with no host) returns from the void, anchoring itself to the physical realm:
Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The power of Palpatine's lightning is shown to be capable of bending Windu's lightsaber (yes, Palpatine stopped only to convince Anakin to go to the Dark Side):
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Palpatine's lightning is shown to be powerful enough to overpower Yoda (even with Yoda using Force Absorption/Tutaminis and Force Deflection):
In the Senate Arena, lightning forked from the hands of a Sith, and bent away from the gesture of a Jedi to shock Redrobes into unconsciousness. Then there were only the two of them. Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Palpatine can kill beings with Lightning:
Garrbo V'Droz almost dropped his glow rod when it shined off a face he recognized in one of the chambers. There was a grim smile on its face. The green-haired occupant of the chamber was someone with whom Garrbo V'Droz was intimately familiar: his brother, the construction foreman.
Whirling on his patron, he whimpered, "What is the meaning of this?" Emperor Palpatine smiled and said simply, "It means that you and I are the only ones left who know the way through the labyrinth to my...home for treasures too valuable even for my museum above. And soon, it will just be me," the Emperor grinned horribly, as Garrbo V'Droz cowered.
"Don't worry, my friend," hissed the dark figure, gesturing grandly at a vacant spot in the chamber, "you shall have a place of honor here. You've earned it."
Palpatine raised his hands, preparing to strike, and then, allowing himself a final moment to savor the fear in his victim, added, "And if 1 ever need your services again, I will not hesitate to clone you."
V'Droz cringed as the Emperor threw vicious bolts of lightning from his hands and ensured that the galaxy's finest architect was forever a part of his last, greatest work.
--Taken from The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook (His Finest Work) (credit to Silver2467)
"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Prior to receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine hurls his father around a cabin, strangles his mother, distorts a bulkhead, and murders his siblings with the Force.
Once more Sidious allowed his memories to unfold, and he relived the crimethe event, as he had at last come to think of it. His father's limp and blooded body. The smashed skulls of the bodyguards. His hands clenched around his mother's slender throat—but not really, only in his mind, strangling her with his thoughts. The lifeless forms of his siblings, slumped here and there...
--Taken from Darth Plagueis
Prior to receiving any training, Palpatine is so powerful in the Force that Plagueis cannot scan him:
Palpatine’s fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?
--Taken from Darth Plagueis
And he creates Wormholes which rip through the space-time continuum, consuming entire fleets, the surfaces of planets and moons, and can teleport beings and spirits across the galaxy:
Palpatine drains the life force of the population of Byss (almost twenty billion) slowly while travelling across the galaxy, doing whatever he is:
Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.
--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes
And Palpatine enslaves the minds of all those on Byss, which again, totals nearly twenty billion, and he does so simultaneously, instantaneously and effortlessly:
What better lure for multitudes than Byss's siren call of beauty and peace? Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.
--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook
Palpatine is regarded as a Black Hole of the Force:
Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.
Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.
Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.
And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.
A black hole of the Force.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Palpatine's mere anger creates a Weather Storm, even though he is visually holding it back:
Reeling, Ferus stood next to Vader as the Emperor approached them. Clouds had rolled in like a great gray carpet; a storm was brewing. The thickness of the air and the coming storm seemed to give a hard change to the atmosphere.
Ferus felt the blast of the Emperor's fury, though he remained calm. Palpatine came straight to Vader.
-- Taken from Last of the Jedi: Master of Deception
As you can see, Palpatine has a multitude of methods to eliminate Gandalf, and Gandalf has absolutely no way of changing that, or eliminating Palpatine.
Gandalf lacks the ability to even remotely react to Palpatine, and Palpatine has dozens of ways of annihilating Gandalf. So, Palpatine does indeed obliterate Gandalf.
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