Gandalf the Grey vs Severus Snape

@Sideslash

But it does though.

Source please. No where does it say a spell from LOTR happens just by thought, like Harry Potter's spells can.

Saruman's Voice is a mental attack.

Source.

So he has the power to bend any but the absolute strongest minds to his will. Sounds a lot like Legilimency to me.

Wiki sources are not reliable. They can be edited. If there will be a source I want it to be in one of the books, please.

When he's specifically trying to use this on Gandalf, Gandalf remains "totally unmoved".

And then there's the point that Gandalf, as a minor deity, has a mind that is likely very different to anything Snape's ever encountered, and very likely to be beyond Snape's comprehension.

Once again, a source is needed. Just because Gandalf the grey is this minor deity doesn't make him immortal. Plus I could go on wiki and edit it right now to my leisure. I'd like a book source, please.

Also, spells that could aid against Snape are:

Sword of Power - Used to finally slay Durin's Bane

Yes, he'll have to get close to snape to strike him. If he can get close to snape, then he can kill him with that I will admit. But Snape has tons of ways to prevent Gandalf from getting close to him. (Teleportation, illusions, Legilimens, etc)

Magical Kinesis - Gandalf the Grey was also capable of pushing his foes back with his staff, as shown in the movie when he battles Saruman in Orthanc. (This is the one you're thinking of. This is what Saruman overpowers Gandalf with, and then sends him to the top of the Tower of Orthanc.

Snape can use telekensis also.

But once again, no indication that Gandalf the GREY does that first thing in a battle.

Shield of the Istari - Gandalf can also conjure up a magical shield to protect himself from enemy attacks. It is shown in the movies only once, when Gandalf stands against the Balrog's flaming sword. (If it held against a Balrog, I don't see what Snape can do to it).

There's no indication that a killing curse would fail against the shield. Or any HP spells for that matter. Has a killing curse ever been used against the shield? No. Plus many on this thread said if Avada Kedavra hit Gandalf, he's done. Disagree with it? Argue with them.

Fire - Gandalf uses the power of fire in the Hobbit, to light pinecones in multi-colored fire and to throw them at wolves; he also uses fire in the Fellowship of the Ring to cast ablaze a bundle of wood, and a large cluster of trees to stay warm, and to combat more wolves.

This isn't impressive. Any HP wizard can use fire. Snape could have set those woves on fireand won the battle within a few minutes.

Destructive Blast - By far Gandalf's most devastating power is the destructive blast. Gandalf initiates this by raising his staff into the air and slamming it down on the ground. The weaker version is enough to break the Bridge of Khazad-dum, but at full power it can send surrounding legions flying into the air, instantly destroying them. (An answer to teleportation, an AoE attack.)

And the weaker version is Gandalf the Grey. This is impressive and could effect Snape. However Gandalf takes his time to raise his staff as he did with the balrog, so it'd be Gandalf: You shall not- Snape: Avada Kedavra. And that's the end of the battle.

Gandalf stomps Snape :)

Voldemort would be a better challange for Gandalf.

@Kingjohnrocks: Snape never used Avada Kedavra. He might be able to, but never has.

Therefore he won't in this fight.

@Timeflux said:

@Kingjohnrocks: Snape never used Avada Kedavra. He might be able to, but never has.

Therefore he won't in this fight.

This is one of the most ignorant comments of the day.

He used this both in movie and in book.

Resarch before you speak.

@Kingjohnrocks: I'm sorry, one instance in seven years, after he was asked by Dumbledore nine months in advance...So yeah, when in an actual fight?

When Voldemort was going to kill him, he didn't use it. Your argument's pretty weak.

@Sideslash said:

@Kingjohnrocks: I'm sorry, one instance in seven years, after he was asked by Dumbledore nine months in advance...So yeah, when in an actual fight?

When Voldemort was going to kill him, he didn't use it. Your argument's pretty weak.

This doesn't change the fact that Snape CAN use Avada Kedavra. Where in the books does it say "Snape was only granted this one time to use Avada Kedavra". He has a feat with it, he can use it, and Im sure he can use it here. If you'll just throw a bunch of speculation at me in your next comment, I am just going to stop replying. Show me where in the book does it say Snape is limited to Avada Kedavra one time. Show me.

@Kingjohnrocks said:

@Sideslash said:

@Kingjohnrocks: I'm sorry, one instance in seven years, after he was asked by Dumbledore nine months in advance...So yeah, when in an actual fight?

When Voldemort was going to kill him, he didn't use it. Your argument's pretty weak.

This doesn't change the fact that Snape CAN use Avada Kedavra. Where in the books does it say "Snape was only granted this one time to use Avada Kedavra". He has a feat with it, he can use it, and Im sure he can use it here. If you'll just throw a bunch of speculation at me in your next comment, I am just going to stop replying. Show me where in the book does it say Snape is limited to Avada Kedavra one time. Show me.

Never said it said he was limited to one use of it, I said he's used it only once. That is a fact.

I said he's never used it in a fight. That's not speculation, that is a fact.

In all his fights (all very few of them), he's never used Avada Kedavra.

• In Prisoner of Azkaban - Disarms Sirius, Harry then hits him with three Stunning Spells at once, and KO's him.
• vs Harry in Half Blood Prince (running away, all he does is defend himself and then uses a spell that knocks Harry over, doesn't cause any physical damage).

Did I miss any fights?

@Sideslash

In Prisoner of Azkaban - Disarms Sirius, Harry then hits him with three Stunning Spells at once, and KO's him.

Correct, but losing to Harry Potter is not a bad feat at all.

vs Harry in Half Blood Prince (running away, all he does is defend himself and then uses a spell that knocks Harry over, doesn't cause any physical damage).

Actually, Harry tried to use Snape's own spells against him, Snape simply deflected and knocked him over. He could have killed Harry, but he didn'bother.

Snape has many other spells that he can use against Gandalf, Avada Kedavra is one of them, but just because he only used it once doesn't mean he can't apply it to this battle. He can use,

Sectumsempra:

- Harry potter and the half blood prince.

Not only would this brutally wound Gandalf, this would give a chance to use Avada Kedavra or Levicorpus a chance to work. With Levicorpus Snape can slam Gandalf into a wall repeatedly, Gandalf would be completely helpless without his staff. After he's done slamming Gandalf, he can use Langlock if Gandalf tries to speak a spell (sense that's what you'll probably say even though Gandalf only broke Saruman's staff because he kicked him out of the order, and that was the white). Langlock would affix Gandalf's tounge to the roof of his mouth. By this point Gandalf would be helpless, unable to use his voice, and then Snape could use Avada Kedavra on him.

And guess what? These are all spells Snape himself invented. So it's likely for him to use them. Just Sectumsempra would be enough to kick Gandalf out of the fighting ring.

I think Snape wins here, I've given my argument. Your move, Sideslash.

Snape curbstomps. Gandalf is too limited in his Grey form to win.

@Kingjohnrocks: Uh, Shield of the Istari. It's blocked hits from Durin's Bane.

@Sideslash said:

@Kingjohnrocks: Uh, Shield of the Istari. It's blocked hits from Durin's Bane.

I give you all that, and you simply say "Shield of Istari". Show me it against a curse, if you show me it against a curse then I will believe you that Gandalf wins in a close fight. But if you can't, then Snape curbstomps.

Snape wins, Sectumsempra would end the grey.

@Kingjohnrocks said:

@Sideslash said:

@Kingjohnrocks: Uh, Shield of the Istari. It's blocked hits from Durin's Bane.

I give you all that, and you simply say "Shield of Istari". Show me it against a curse, if you show me it against a curse then I will believe you that Gandalf wins in a close fight. But if you can't, then Snape curbstomps.

Snape wins, Sectumsempra would end the grey.

Show me a curse going through the Shield of the Istari.

@Sideslash said:

@Kingjohnrocks said:

@Sideslash said:

@Kingjohnrocks: Uh, Shield of the Istari. It's blocked hits from Durin's Bane.

I give you all that, and you simply say "Shield of Istari". Show me it against a curse, if you show me it against a curse then I will believe you that Gandalf wins in a close fight. But if you can't, then Snape curbstomps.

Snape wins, Sectumsempra would end the grey.

Show me a curse going through the Shield of the Istari.

There's no indication that it won't work, as said by the people on the first few pages (the experts) Plus, the Shield of Istari has only deflected something pshycial, the Balrog's featless sword. Snape's spells are mental, and energetic, not pshycial like the sword. Nothing energetic has tried to go through the Shield, thus it's safe to say that a spell could go through.

Show me a curse that ever went against the Shield of Istari.

@Kingjohnrocks: The Balrog's Sword of Flame is imbued with magic, the Flame of Udun (not sure if it's a curse or what).

So, it's unknown if curses can actually effect the Shield at all. I'd say the Shield could probably block them, but we don't know, because curses were never used on it. However, we can't just assume all of Snape's spells will go through it.

On another note, I'm upset that Tolkien died with so many unfinished notes, because I have no doubt that he would have made god only knows how many more fantastic novella with those notes, not just published them as they were, like his son did (the Silmarillion).

@Sideslash

The Balrog's Sword of Flame is imbued with magic, the Flame of Udun (not sure if it's a curse or what).

Nowhere does Tolkein say the Flame of Udun is a curse. thus it's not.

So, it's unknown if curses can actually effect the Shield at all. I'd say the Shield could probably block them, but we don't know,

You say that because you like Gandalf more then Snape, then you say it's unknown. We don't know. Im going off of feats, we know the Shield has not blocked a curse/spell, thus Snape can get get one of his spells in by feats.

because curses were never used on it. However, we can't just assume all of Snape's spells will go through it.

But we can't say that they won't work. Lets say it does work, you are willing to compromise that Gandalf would die, right? Many others on this thread are saying that, your the only one who isn't. Also, why, based on feats, can't we assume Snape's curses fail? Because you like Gandalf more then snape?

On another note, I'm upset that Tolkien died with so many unfinished notes, because I have no doubt that he would have made god only knows how many more fantastic novella with those notes, not just published them as they were, like his son did (the Silmarillion)

I think Gandalf should be banned from the Battle forums. He is nearly featless (he has some impressive feats, not as much as Snape though) and we are left to speculate if Gandalf can win or not. The forums go strictly off of Feats, not speculation.

@Kingjohnrocks: Oh yeah, if Snape's curses can circumvent the Shield of the Istari, Snape would win.

Would you be willing to admit that if they don't, Gandalf could win?

To be fair, yeah, Gandalf is lacking quite a bit in the feats department. If Tolkien had written more books, he'd probably have more feats.

@Sideslash

Oh yeah, if Snape's curses can circumvent the Shield of the Istari, Snape would win.

Glad you compromise.

Would you be willing to admit that if they don't, Gandalf could win?

Im willing to admit if Snape doesn't levitate Gandalf's staff from his hands, Im willing to admit if Gandalf can hit Snape with his glambrig, Snape will die. However, Snape can teleport to avoid destructive blast, or snatch Gandalf's staff from his hand. So if Gandalf can get close enough to strike Snape with his sword, then yes. Maybe if Snape gets hit by lightning, but once again teleportation can avoid that. So Gandalf has 2 options to kill Snape if his curses fail. 1. Lightninb, 2. Sword. As I said, lightning is not likely.

But I do think Snape can win.

@Kingjohnrocks said:

@Sideslash

Oh yeah, if Snape's curses can circumvent the Shield of the Istari, Snape would win.

Glad you compromise.

Would you be willing to admit that if they don't, Gandalf could win?

Im willing to admit if Snape doesn't levitate Gandalf's staff from his hands, Im willing to admit if Gandalf can hit Snape with his glambrig, Snape will die. However, Snape can teleport to avoid destructive blast, or snatch Gandalf's staff from his hand. So if Gandalf can get close enough to strike Snape with his sword, then yes. Maybe if Snape gets hit by lightning, but once again teleportation can avoid that. So Gandalf has 2 options to kill Snape if his curses fail. 1. Lightninb, 2. Sword. As I said, lightning is not likely.

But I do think Snape can win.

And Gandalf can't take Snape's wand because? Also, him taking Gandalf's staff is unlikely, since when Saruman was knocking him around, Gandalf still held onto it tightly.

@Sideslash said:

Also, him taking Gandalf's staff is unlikely, since when Saruman was knocking him around, Gandalf still held onto it tightly.

Not really meaning that much, since Saruman ripped the staff from his hand with one gesture, so it seemed as though he was almost toying earlier on.

Just saying.

@Kingjohnrocks:

Yeah right whatever :) :). Someone who is too fast for an elf to react (elves have superhuman reflexes they can move their hands ,,quicker than sight") will succumb to normal human reflex. And the point of Harry Potter spells is to AIM AT TARGET with the wand or without (many times over Death Eaters used Avada Kedavra or other spells and missed, Gandalf can move and fast to that). Mental bariers are unbreakable in someone who has a Ring of Power (remember they ENHANCE natural abilities of a wearer and Sauron could only read the minds of other ringbearers if he regained the One ring), Galadriel resisted mind reading for countless years, Ganalf battles with Sauron for whom dominating minds is favourite trick (army of thousands orcs driven by the one will), one who could put ,,Though Olorin loved the elves he walked among them unseen or in form as one of them, and they did not know from whence came the fair visions or promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts" (basically he could sent knowledge and wisdom into minds of others, you don't know what legilimency or whatever :) really is, or either you confuse it with imperio spell, which by the way too can be overcame by strength of will in short time, legilency or whatever :) :) allows you only to see some memories, use them against that person and sense lies, not much use of it for someone who trained occlumency and not to mention superhumanly strong will and what memories can Snape use, hmm maybe that event from before a thousand years oh no it's too far in time well maybe this from before two hundred years, of course I'm exagerating a little :) but human mind is much easier to read if it has only at far several decades and even assuming that somehow Snape will search through his mind he must still be concentrated on it while Gandalf can activelly fight back with him mentally much better than anyone in wizardring world including little Tom Riddle :) Gandalf may have his fears but he fought monstrosities like powerful sorcerer wraiths and didn't even flinch, Dementors have nothing on them :) and you know as well as I that even human can resist easily, legilimency if he trained to do so). You haven't look closely at my list Gandalf can influence mind by subtly manipulating feelings with mere presence, he doesn't need to search for memories to make Snape scared (Narya among other things can kindle the flame of emotions, poethically speaking :).

In Lotr mental powers and strength of will are extremely important, look at Denethor example: ,,He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.'" And Denethor for some time resisted Sauron in palantir, of course until he prematurely aged and Sauron finally drove him mad but that's irrelevant :), you see Lotr characters in terms of mental power exceed those of Harry Potter universe, there is no telepathy in it (the only mental link is that of Harry and Voldemort and that's unusual side effect of magic) while in lotr it can be used as a form of offensive strike. But for you it again will mean nothing obviously, :) at least I use reasonable arguments. Haven't you read my whole post there is more than just fire (nothing better than to ignore the arguments of your oponent without even considering them fully :):) sigh :), and Snape my lad :) will burn as any other flesh if set on fire.

Gandalf's powers are too hearsay and too much hinges on his ''status'' as a maiar...

Snape has more feats so I say Snape wins.

I don't care if Gandalf is a Maiar or whatever. We have no idea how powerful a Maiar would be relative to the HP universe. For example, someone could be a ''god'' in Final Fantasy and still be in reality unable to defeat a skilled mortal in DBZ.

It's less about what people are than about how their feats stack up. When we compare different universes, we need to stick to feats otherwise we get nowhere.

In the same universe, status (ex elf vs human or maiar vs human might mean implied superiority) but once we look across uinverses feats > status (status is too vague and debatable and we have no idea how it stacks up across).

Saying things like, Gandalf is more than human or Gandalf is a Maiar don't mean much if they are not backed up by a long lists of feats that clearly show them to be superior to wizards in the HP universe. Otherwise, how do we know that in reality all Maiars actually SUCK BALLS compared to wizards in the HP universe (for all we know they might as well)?

As far as feats stack up, Snape is a lot more impressive.

Snape performed magic without saying the words, was shown to be a master at blocking spells reflexively (in his duel against HP in book 6) and people in HP can teleport, cast unblockable Killing Curses, and do a lot of other things.

Gandalf? Sorry but without feats (except for defeating a Balrog but again we can't tell if this is impressive or not relative to the HP world because the book didn't go into details about how this was achieved, what specific curses/skills etc Gandalf used to defeat this monster or what this monster is etc etc etc)...

Snape owns.

The argument with teleportation is unreliable (if it was so simple every wizard duel would end up very quickly) teleportation needs concentration in one spare moment it could be achieved but the next wizard must think of another spells to use so speed is the basis (Gandalf showed his time reaction is ,,splintered second"). Also isn't that Avada Kedavra must be said aloud? Because it requires a lot of power and thinking spells are lesser in effect. Hmm? :).

@fantasywind: I agree that many overestimate teleportation/apparation and it's not very simple. It requires a great deal of concentration but someone like Snape should be able to chain it with spells and avada kedavra does not to be said out loud if you are skilled enough which snape is.

@goblin123 said:

Sorry but without feats (except for defeating a Balrog but again we can't tell if this is impressive or not relative to the HP world because the book didn't go into details about how this was achieved, what specific curses/skills etc Gandalf used to defeat this monster or what this monster is etc etc etc)...

Gonna have to point out something. It was said in the book that Gandalf fought the Balrog for days on end, with no rest, or food, or water. So at the very least, he could outlast Snape.

@Dextersinister: His flash of light left a smell of gunpowder. It was no normal light.

@fantasywind said:

The argument with teleportation is unreliable (if it was so simple every wizard duel would end up very quickly) teleportation needs concentration in one spare moment it could be achieved but the next wizard must think of another spells to use so speed is the basis (Gandalf showed his time reaction is ,,splintered second"). Also isn't that Avada Kedavra must be said aloud? Because it requires a lot of power and thinking spells are lesser in effect. Hmm? :).

It can be said during the teleportation effect. Bellatrix Lestrange used it to sneak kill Sirius Black. Teleporting is rather simple, and was used to escape his fight with Mcgonagall, and was used with little difficulty in the fight between the Death Eaters and the Order.

Gandalf is more of a warrior style wizard then snape. I'm probably being biased because I hate Harry potter but Gandalf stomps both

@spiderpool94: Gandalf would insta-kill Snape with a death-light, like the one he used in the Hobbit.

So yeah there's no bias needed.

@fantasywind said:

@Kingjohnrocks:

Yeah right whatever :) :). Someone who is too fast for an elf to react (elves have superhuman reflexes they can move their hands ,,quicker than sight") will succumb to normal human reflex. And the point of Harry Potter spells is to AIM AT TARGET with the wand or without (many times over Death Eaters used Avada Kedavra or other spells and missed, Gandalf can move and fast to that). Mental bariers are unbreakable in someone who has a Ring of Power (remember they ENHANCE natural abilities of a wearer and Sauron could only read the minds of other ringbearers if he regained the One ring), Galadriel resisted mind reading for countless years, Ganalf battles with Sauron for whom dominating minds is favourite trick (army of thousands orcs driven by the one will), one who could put ,,Though Olorin loved the elves he walked among them unseen or in form as one of them, and they did not know from whence came the fair visions or promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts" (basically he could sent knowledge and wisdom into minds of others, you don't know what legilimency or whatever :) really is, or either you confuse it with imperio spell, which by the way too can be overcame by strength of will in short time, legilency or whatever :) :) allows you only to see some memories, use them against that person and sense lies, not much use of it for someone who trained occlumency and not to mention superhumanly strong will and what memories can Snape use, hmm maybe that event from before a thousand years oh no it's too far in time well maybe this from before two hundred years, of course I'm exagerating a little :) but human mind is much easier to read if it has only at far several decades and even assuming that somehow Snape will search through his mind he must still be concentrated on it while Gandalf can activelly fight back with him mentally much better than anyone in wizardring world including little Tom Riddle :) Gandalf may have his fears but he fought monstrosities like powerful sorcerer wraiths and didn't even flinch, Dementors have nothing on them :) and you know as well as I that even human can resist easily, legilimency if he trained to do so). You haven't look closely at my list Gandalf can influence mind by subtly manipulating feelings with mere presence, he doesn't need to search for memories to make Snape scared (Narya among other things can kindle the flame of emotions, poethically speaking :).

In Lotr mental powers and strength of will are extremely important, look at Denethor example: ,,He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.'" And Denethor for some time resisted Sauron in palantir, of course until he prematurely aged and Sauron finally drove him mad but that's irrelevant :), you see Lotr characters in terms of mental power exceed those of Harry Potter universe, there is no telepathy in it (the only mental link is that of Harry and Voldemort and that's unusual side effect of magic) while in lotr it can be used as a form of offensive strike. But for you it again will mean nothing obviously, :) at least I use reasonable arguments. Haven't you read my whole post there is more than just fire (nothing better than to ignore the arguments of your oponent without even considering them fully :):) sigh :), and Snape my lad :) will burn as any other flesh if set on fire.

This post shows how little you know of HP.

1. Show me Gandalf using mental powers, to make Snape "scared". Snape is a master of Legilimens and Occulmency, they won't be penetrating his mind anytime soon. This post is a bunch of mindless jabber which is why I'l respond to some of it, not all of it.

you don't know what legilimency or whatever :) really is, or either you confuse it with imperio spell, which by the way too can be overcame by strength of will in short time, legilency or whatever :) :)

Legilimency and Imperio are 2 different spells. Legilimency ISN'T a curse, Imperio IS. Let's see what Snape had to say on Legilimency, shall we?

Also, the person that's a practioneer of Legilimency, master practioneer like Snape can do a mental assault on Gandalf. Heck, Voldemort is a master practioneer and HE possessed

legilency or whatever :) :) allows you only to see some memories, use them against that person and sense lies, not much use of it for someone who trained occlumency and not to mention superhumanly strong will and what memories can Snape use, hmm maybe that event from before a thousand years oh no it's too far in time well maybe this from before two hundred years, of course I'm exagerating a little :) but human mind is much easier to read if it has only at far several decades and even assuming that somehow Snape will search through his mind he must still be concentrated on it while Gandalf can activelly fight back with him mentally much better than anyone in wizardring world including little Tom Riddle :)

*facepalm* No offense but I have never seen such inconsistence and nonsense in an argument before..NEVER. Voldemort used Legilimency to POSSESS Harry. You obviously do not know what your speaking of when it comes to HP. Plus, Gandalf has not trained occlumency because occlumency is not in the LOTR universe! Superhumanly strong will? Buddy, Im looking for feats-NOT for speculation. You even said you were exagerating, your twisting this to your own will.

Snape will search through his mind he must still be concentrated on it while Gandalf can activelly fight back with him mentally much better than anyone in wizardring world including little Tom Riddle :)

There's no proof for this, Gandalf the Grey has not done this, this is not a feat it is a unproven opinion. It is bias and wrong, and even I compromised that Snape can kill Gandalf in some ways, and Gandalf can kill snape in some ways also.

Gandalf may have his fears but he fought monstrosities like powerful sorcerer wraiths and didn't even flinch, Dementors have nothing on them :) and you know as well as I that even human can resist easily, legilimency if he trained to do so). You haven't look closely at my list Gandalf can influence mind by subtly manipulating feelings with mere presence, he doesn't need to search for memories to make Snape scared (Narya among other things can kindle the flame of emotions, poethically speaking :).

Gandalf the Grey didn't face Wraiths. He didn't. Where does it say Gandalf the Grey can influence the mind with his presence? He can't, maybe Gandalf the white, but your giving all versions of Gandalf too much power then they have or deserve. Plus, Snape is very strong mentally and telepathically, it's HARD to make him scared and if Gandalf tries to do that then Snape uses Sectumsempra on him right away.

In Lotr mental powers and strength of will are extremely important, look at Denethor example: ,,He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.'" And Denethor for some time resisted Sauron in palantir, of course until he prematurely aged and Sauron finally drove him mad but that's irrelevant :), you see Lotr characters in terms of mental power exceed those of Harry Potter universe, there is no telepathy in it (the only mental link is that of Harry and Voldemort and that's unusual side effect of magic

There is telepathy. Voldemort peered into Harry's emotions and tried to create a link between him and Harry to possess him that way, he didn't need Legilimency. It is not unusual because you say it is, because nowhere in the books/movies indicate that. Voldemort knew what he was doing. Also, mental assaults and spells that shield the mind from them, that is a telepathic attack.

while in lotr it can be used as a form of offensive strike. But for you it again will mean nothing obviously, :

Snape has multiple spells, including Legilimency that he can use to strike offensively to the mind and make someone kill themselves, and it's not even VOCAL.

(nothing better than to ignore the arguments of your oponent without even considering them fully :):) sigh :), and Snape my lad :) will burn as any other flesh if set on fire.

Fire? Snape will simply use his wand to deflect it, then go in for Sectumsempra.

Stop being a fanboy and consider that Gandalf CAN be defeated by HP wizards.

@logy5000 said:

@spiderpool94: Gandalf would insta-kill Snape with a death-light, like the one he used in the Hobbit.

So yeah there's no bias needed.

Actually Gandalf the Grey's staff has no blinding light or "death light". Gandalf the White does, the Grey has a Glamdrig that he could use, but again Snape could get Sectumsempra or Avada Kedavra in and kill Gandalf.

Once again, get off the LOTR fanboy wagon and be reasonable.

@Kingjohnrocks: In the Hobbit he killed 10 monsters instantly with a quick flash of light. I don't know if you remember that.

Gandalf has incredible reaction speed. Harry Potter has dodged spells multiple spells before, Gandalf can do the same.

I doubt Sectumsempra will kill Gandalf since Harry went balistic with it towards Malfoy and frantically waved his wand, but Malfoy was still conscious afterwards. Sure he was bleeding, but Gandalf has healing spells.

You need to stop calling people fanboys, since HP has far more fanboys than LOTR.

@logy5000 said:

@Kingjohnrocks: In the Hobbit he killed 10 monsters instantly with a quick flash of light. I don't know if you remember that.

Gandalf has incredible reaction speed. Harry Potter has dodged spells multiple spells before, Gandalf can do the same.

I doubt Sectumsempra will kill Gandalf since Harry went balistic with it towards Malfoy and frantically waved his wand, but Malfoy was still conscious afterwards. Sure he was bleeding, but Gandalf has healing spells.

You need to stop calling people fanboys, since HP has far more fanboys than LOTR.

Source on the healing spells?

Sectumsempra won't be to kill Gandalf, but to injure him, snatch away his staff, and then use Avada Kedavra. Plus, Gandalf is not immune to Levicorpus, which Snape could use to snatch out of Gandalf's hand.

Everyone else on this thread has said that if Snape can get his curses in Gandalf dies, your the only one who's not budging.

Also, where is this "incredible reaction speed" and how will this "incredible reaction speed" survive an invisible spell like Levicorpus which just needs a upward flick from the wand? If snape does that and takes Gandalf's staff and throws him around like a puppet, casts Sectumsempra, langlock, and then Avada Kedavra, then Gandalf the Grey is dead.

@Pfcoolio15 said:

I copy and pasted an argument that I made for Voldemort in another thread, but I think the same can be applied here

You guys have to understand that when we're crossing characters from two different universes, we have to make exceptions. We can't just say that Voldemort doesn't beat Gandalf because he's a maiar. They're from two different places and we have to alter things so the battle can take place. Otherwise there's no point. Can't just say Maiar magic is greater than Harry Potter magic because they've never interacted.

As for the actual battle, it's never been said that you can't do physical harm to Gandalf and there are a bunch of things that Voldemort can do to harm Gandalf. And this is because, neither side can deny it, Voldemort has had a wider and more varied application of magic. Not just the killing spell. ie Mind Control

He teleports at a thought, so I doubt Gandalf is gonna be able to touch him with anything. And, guess what, he can fly. Something that Gandalf could have done when he was falling and fighting that Balrog. But he didn't, because he doesn't have the ability to.

Voldemort can just turn an inanimate object into a soldier. Cast a binding spell on Gandalf so he can't move. Cast a babbling curse on him so he can't say anything. So "You shall not pass is not an option". Use a Connjuctivitis Charm to gouge his eyes out. Which is what Krum used on a dragon during the Triwizard tournament. Transfigure a simple tree into an ally. Or maybe just cast a Crucio for unbearable pain. And mind control is always the easiest thing. Or maybe a couple of 50 ft flame serpents. Voldemort's repertoire isn't limited to Avada Kedavra and he makes that obvious in the books. The difference between Gandalf and Voldemort is that Gandalf's magic is finite. He said himself he needs a fuel to make fire. And has shown to be tired after some spells. Voldemort's however is not. One word and Gandalf is done. Oh and did I mention the Jelly Jinx that would render Gandalfs legs useless.

You guys don't understand that the reason Gandalf seems so powerful is the fact that they're worlds are different. The people in Harry Potter face ultra powerful evenly matched magic wielding wizards all the time which is why it doesn't seem as that much of a great feat. But Dumbledore is like one wizard in a small career pool in middle earth. Their group has to deal with orcs. While the people in Harry potter have to deal with an army of death eaters that fly around teleporting all over the place while each is wielding an instant kill curse. Now explain to me this, Dumbledore and his group has problems killing orcs. At one point it even said he would have died if he jumped down because he was surrounded and trapped in a tree. If you put Hermoine Granger in that situation, it definitely wouldn't have been a problem. Now if you put Voldemort in that situation those orcs would have been dead in a couple of minutes. Either by Voldemort turning that tree into his own personal slave by transmuting it, making a giant all engulfing snake flame demon(remember what malfoy did) or killing them off one by one with Avada Kedavra while they run away. See, that's the thing. While Gandalf is killing those orcs with swords, Voldemort would be laughing and torturing them. And during the Return of the King, those Orcs wouldn't have even gotten into the kingdom because he would have equipped each entrance with a bunch of fire hexes or make them orc proof while casting a spell that makes them completely indestructible.

Now tell me this, don't you think that if it was Harry's group that had to destroy that ring and go on that quest, it would have been over in less than half the time. Without all the problems with the orcs.

People REALLY need to read this comment.

I am going to say Snape. I am a huge fan of both series so I'm doing this without too much bias.

What I noticed is that people don't know a lot about Snape. In the books he's done wandless and wordless magic. That means he doesn't need to say or use a wand to use a spell. So he's got an advantage with that. He's also one of the strongest characters in the series, right under Dumbledore actually. He's mastered several types of magic (Transfiguration, charms, potions, dark arts, etc.) and he's a master duelist. So he's no pushover. Since voldemort is the worlds strongest Legilimens, then, by default, Snape is the worlds strongest Occlumencer. So, no, Gandalf would not be able to screw with his mind so easily.

He's invented 7 spells and in the HP series spell creation is dangerous, often results in death, and you need a fair bit of knowledge of magic, Latin, and skill to make a spell. He did this when he was still in school.

He's a spy which speaks for it's self. And in book 7 he took on 3 teachers at once and only ran because he didn't want to hurt them. Book 7 was not a good year for him. As for book 3 it took 3 students to cast Expelliarmus at the same time when he was mad with rage and distracted. He got a concussion and passed out. Harry, as shown in the end of book 6, couldn't even land a single spell on Snape. Snape was toying with him and could have killed him but didn't.

If Gandalf needs to speak the spell and use his staff then he's at a disadvantage. But as Gandalf the white then he might win. But the main problem is, is that they are from two different universes. The magic from the two different universes are completely different so it's like comparing apples to oranges. They also fight differently which comes in to play as well so there's really no way of knowing. Both are extremely powerful wizards.

But there is also the problem with Gandalf's magic. Gandalf's magic is finite, Snape's is not. And with Sectumsempra you need to use the specific healing spell developed and created by Snape for the curse. You can't just use any old healing spell. Blood loss would kill Gandalf if he didn't have the counter curse.

Maybe it'd be a tie. *shrugs* But this is just my two cents.

@Kingjohnrocks: Thanks

Did this thread have to come back to life? Snape wins. It's official.

@SSJLozza said:

Oh come on. Both versions of Gandalf took down a Balrog an ancient Demon created by Morgoth (Arda's version of the Devil). He curbstomps HIDEOUSLY! There is nothing in HP verse that comes close to the power or evil of a Balrog. That feat alone is far more impressive than anything anyone in HP ever did simple as.

yep

@UltraSuperTrooper said:

@SSJLozza said:

Oh come on. Both versions of Gandalf took down a Balrog an ancient Demon created by Morgoth (Arda's version of the Devil). He curbstomps HIDEOUSLY! There is nothing in HP verse that comes close to the power or evil of a Balrog. That feat alone is far more impressive than anything anyone in HP ever did simple as.

yep

The snape people, we have made our case, we have the feats-PLEASE.LET.THIS.DIE or I'l ask for it to be locked.

@UltraSuperTrooper

: I'm going to repost this just for you

And also, this is for the whole balrog thing

Members of this board always give the Ainur much more power then they deserve.

They are not immune to physical damage.

- Sauron, who had access to his full power was beaten in combat by a dog. He would have been killed, but was allowed to surrender his fortress instead. If the Ainur in Tolkiens world had the power just to vaporize opponents from afar then the Dog would not of even gotten to within pouncing distance of him.... They simply do not have that degree of power.

- Morgoth, one of the most powerful Valar got hurt by a elf lord wielding a sword, then had his face ripped open by a Eagle (was a very powerful eagle). These wounds never fully healed, and after that date he never left his stronghold again. Morgoth also lacked the ability to prevent the eagles from patrolling over his stronghold.

- Sauron with his ring, was killed with a Spear and Sword.

- A Elf Lord killed the Balrog Gothmog (Morgoths most powerful Ainur), he stood over 12ft tall and wield a black axe and whips of flame. The Elf Lord, injured and weaponless drove his spiked helmet deep into the Balrogs breast killing it, both died entangled in a fountain.

- Another Elf Lord killed a Balrog by battling it with his sword, then throwing it off a mountain side (both died).

I could be stretching things a bit far here, but comparing the strength of Sauron with the Durins Bane. After Gandalf and the Balrog falled into the underground lake, we get this description ""a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake". During his fight with the Dog, Sauron changed himself into a Serpent which was strangled by the bite of the dog. So Sauron was a "strangled snake".....

After reading all pages,and hearing both sides I've to say Snape wins both rounds.Sry…

@UltraSuperTrooper: Nah, I copy and pasted that

@Pfcoolio15: haha calm down bud, just an opinion

@UltraSuperTrooper said:

@Pfcoolio15: haha calm down bud, just an opinion

But we have the facts, bud.

@Kingjohnrocks: Okay?

@Orithescribe: You know.. I read a bit of your comment. And would like to draw attention to something..

"He's also one of the strongest characters in the series, right under Dumbledore actually". Seriously? Aren't you forgetting Grindelwald, Dumbledore's equal, Voldemart, who deserves the title you mentioned, Harry's father, who beat snape's head off so many times in his time,.... long list rather?

Don't you think creating seven spells is a rather small achievement if you're up against a guy who studied magic about 300 human lifetimes? Also, I don't remember anyone who died trying to create a spell. If you do, please tell me. Didn't even hermoine create the blue fire?

Next, he ran off from the three teachers because he didn't want to hurt them? You don't really think he stood a chance, do you?

Now, Gandalf was throwing Saruman around without any word as Gandalf the grey as well. (You could rewatch the movie if necessary)

Also, I forgot where the 'Gandalf's logic is finite' case comes from? any back up? And 'snape's is infinite' as well for the matter?

@Pfcoolio15:

You know, the Ainur are respected because they have a solid thing to back them up: They created the universe. They used Ainulindalë, as a response to eru's theme, and LoTR verse was created.

Next, that dog in question, or huan,was actuall protected by a prophecy. He could only be defeated by the largest wolf, and the form Sauron assumed was always to be topped by carcharoth, who was to hold the title, and would be bred for the specific purpose only

Calling Morgoth, one of the strongest, is actually a sign of ignorance, believe me. He Was the strongest one. In his creation, tolkein assumed him on about the same level of Manwe at his creation, but later made him the 'stronger than everything else put together' (Icbw about this one though) He possesed all the aspects of eru, while the others had only a few.

As for the eagles, some were supposedly 'spirits in form of birds' and they were with Manwe: the ruler of sky.

It was, sauron's physical form. In his full form, he's far more than that.

As for the 'elf lords' If you are talking about Glorfindel, he was type who 'made' prophecies. Even witch king fled from him, and as a fun fact, the prophecy about witch king was made by the same guy.

Well, chewing the serpent thing was amusing though..

Now about putting an Aimur against HP character. I am giving you the idea of scales at which these guys work.

If you are asking for feats:

1. Creating the universe: Top that now. No feat, right from snape, Dumbledore to the founders of Hogwarts even comes close to this, even if you stack them up.

2. Ungoliant: an evil spirit in form of a spider that existed before the world. He/She/It drank the life force of fruits whose fruits were made into sun and moon. I mean, that thing ate the whole tree lol, what has anyone from Hp done to come close to moon level?

Funnily enough, ungoliant attacked melkor himself, who had lost most of his strength after his battle, when Balrogs rescued him. She ran away when balrogs attacked.

These guys exist from before the world exhisted, bro, they are well out of HP verse's league.

Seriously, if you really are going to use Gandalf, it's a real mistake to use full powered version. Also, there is not a single instance where the spells in HP verse were used against guys of power above a regular human. They were used on wizards, and some random animals like a fox killed by bellatrix, movie hermoine stunning the little creatures. Heck, they even have trouble stunning a dragon because of 'ancient magic existing in scales'. How are they going to deal with walking magic elder than time?

gandalf would murder snape so badly its not even funny...no one in the the HP universe has a chance against gandalf expect maybe Dumbledore he would give gandalf a good fight..(grey gandalf) but white gandalf would blow up the entire HP universe he is one of the most powerful beings in the entire Fantasy universe LOTR or otherwise with knowledge of every spell...and also he has a sword in which he is skilled in..soo snape here is vastly outmatched and his killing curses would just be deflected by Gandalf so there is really nothing he can do to hurt or kill Gandalf because he could just come back and much stronger...

Gandalf 10/10 times

@PrinceAragorn1: You telling me that Morgoth was the strongest just proves my point that they're overrated. Also pointing out other people's feats doesn't make Gandalf's point any stronger. Gandalf didn't create the universe. He didn't create the moon. What he did do was throw pinecones at wolves. But that's aside from the point. I actually have an entire other argument that I made.

I copy and pasted an argument that I made for Voldemort in another thread, but I think the same can be applied here

You guys have to understand that when we're crossing characters from two different universes, we have to make exceptions. We can't just say that Voldemort doesn't beat Gandalf because he's a maiar. They're from two different places and we have to alter things so the battle can take place. Otherwise there's no point. Can't just say Maiar magic is greater than Harry Potter magic because they've never interacted.

As for the actual battle, it's never been said that you can't do physical harm to Gandalf and there are a bunch of things that Voldemort can do to harm Gandalf. And this is because, neither side can deny it, Voldemort has had a wider and more varied application of magic. Not just the killing spell. ie Mind Control

He teleports at a thought, so I doubt Gandalf is gonna be able to touch him with anything. And, guess what, he can fly. Something that Gandalf could have done when he was falling and fighting that Balrog. But he didn't, because he doesn't have the ability to.

Voldemort can just turn an inanimate object into a soldier. Cast a binding spell on Gandalf so he can't move. Cast a babbling curse on him so he can't say anything. So "You shall not pass is not an option". Use a Connjuctivitis Charm to gouge his eyes out. Which is what Krum used on a dragon during the Triwizard tournament. Transfigure a simple tree into an ally. Or maybe just cast a Crucio for unbearable pain. And mind control is always the easiest thing. Or maybe a couple of 50 ft flame serpents. Voldemort's repertoire isn't limited to Avada Kedavra and he makes that obvious in the books. The difference between Gandalf and Voldemort is that Gandalf's magic is finite. He said himself he needs a fuel to make fire. And has shown to be tired after some spells. Voldemort's however is not. One word and Gandalf is done. Oh and did I mention the Jelly Jinx that would render Gandalfs legs useless.

You guys don't understand that the reason Gandalf seems so powerful is the fact that they're worlds are different. The people in Harry Potter face ultra powerful evenly matched magic wielding wizards all the time which is why it doesn't seem as that much of a great feat. But Dumbledore is like one wizard in a small career pool in middle earth. Their group has to deal with orcs. While the people in Harry potter have to deal with an army of death eaters that fly around teleporting all over the place while each is wielding an instant kill curse. Now explain to me this, Dumbledore and his group has problems killing orcs. At one point it even said he would have died if he jumped down because he was surrounded and trapped in a tree. If you put Hermoine Granger in that situation, it definitely wouldn't have been a problem. Now if you put Voldemort in that situation those orcs would have been dead in a couple of minutes. Either by Voldemort turning that tree into his own personal slave by transmuting it, making a giant all engulfing snake flame demon(remember what malfoy did) or killing them off one by one with Avada Kedavra while they run away. See, that's the thing. While Gandalf is killing those orcs with swords, Voldemort would be laughing and torturing them. And during the Return of the King, those Orcs wouldn't have even gotten into the kingdom because he would have equipped each entrance with a bunch of fire hexes or make them orc proof while casting a spell that makes them completely indestructible.

Now tell me this, don't you think that if it was Harry's group that had to destroy that ring and go on that quest, it would have been over in less than half the time. Without all the problems with the orcs.

And quite honestly, you didn't really give me any reason that Gandalf could beat snape,

@VegetaStark said:

gandalf would murder snape so badly its not even funny...no one in the the HP universe has a chance against gandalf expect maybe Dumbledore he would give gandalf a good fight..(grey gandalf) but white gandalf would blow up the entire HP universe he is one of the most powerful beings in the entire Fantasy universe LOTR or otherwise with knowledge of every spell...and also he has a sword in which he is skilled in..soo snape here is vastly outmatched and his killing curses would just be deflected by Gandalf so there is really nothing he can do to hurt or kill Gandalf because he could just come back and much stronger...

Gandalf 10/10 times

1. Show me Gandalf the Grey deflecting a killing curse.

2. Most powerful being? What about Melkor, Sauron, Eru...? He's not near the most powerful or one of the most powerful.

3. Oh so because he's a swordsman means he can beat a guy who could blitz curses at him without even speaking?

4. The OP maker has specified that this is strictly the Grey and he wouldn't come back as the White. Also, that was ERU's feat, ERU did that not Gandalf himself.

5. Dumbledore and Voldemort would murder Gandalf.

6. Show me White Gandalf blowing up an entire universe before. If 10 death watchers casted spells at the same time at Gandalf, he'd die.

Man, posts like this make me wanna give up on these Gandalf fanboys

@Pfcoolio15: Basically, think of the match up. An angelic being that existed before time itself, and was part of creation of the world vs.. what? a school teacher?

If you think this is fair in any manner, we'll see next.

@Kingjohnrocks: I know right, the guy has never shown anything close to destroying a Universe. He had to light pinecones on fire to throw them at wolves and climbed up a tree to escape orcs. The book even said he would die if he fought those orcs. Any HP wizard would have lit those wolves on fire themselves and be done with it.