Game of Thrones tourney: The All-Star match

Well here it is guys, the final match in my Game of Thrones tourney- I hope you like it! This is a 5 on 5 battle to the death- takes place on an open plain- both teams get one day of prep to strategise before the fight- Book feats only this time, all I ask is that you don't post any spoilers for show viewers. Thanks :)

Team Lannister-Baratheon dynasty:

Robert Baratheon (prime)

Jaime Lannister (both hands)

The Hound

The Mountain

Bronn

Team All-Star:

Arthur Dayne

Aemon the Dragonknight

The Knight of the Laughing Tree

The Smiling Knight

Brandon Stark (Eddard's brother)

Who takes this and why? Thanks for reading and your continued support of my threads :)

Tagging @cregan_stark@pierpat@handsomepatrick@penderor@rogueshadow@tt_4_humanity for this as you guys always gave awesome explanations and answers

It's Aemon the Dragonknight :P

Lannister would actually win in my opinion. While Dayne and Aemon are probably the best two swordsmen here, the rest are not up to scratch, none have done anything I recall to suggest they can take anybody in team 1 for the majority.

Team 1 should win.

Haha my bad! Changed :)

@rogueshadow: What's putting either the dragonkinight or Dayne above prime Jaime as for swardsmanship?I could get to Dayne...he does not have direct feats but the hype around him is really great...but the dragonknight?

Anyway, team Lan-Bar wins due having more and better feats.

They are less skilled ins swordmanship, being next to anyone on team all stars a high/top tier swordsman, but the guys on Lan-Bar are generally better fighters in my opinion.

@pierpat: Dayne is known to be Barristan's equal as stated by GRRM, with Dawn he is superior, he defeated the Smiling Knight, Eddard says he is the best knight he ever saw, Jaime comments on how brilliant a swordsman he was.

Aemon has hype just as big as Dayne, defeating the legendary Cregan Stark n an epic duel that lasted hours and is often stated as being the greatest swordsman of his day.

But the rest can't do much damage and get defeated rather swiftly in my opinion.

Ah, wow, interesting.

Well Arthur Dayne can defeat anyone, and Aemon probably too.

The knight of the laughing tree is most likely the Howland Reed who was one of two survivors in the fight in front of the Tower of Joy. I think he was good swordsman if he managed to survive.

The Smiling Knight was a top swordsman. He was keeping up with Arthur Dayne and fought with Jaime Lannister. He would most likely killed at least Bronn and maybe the Hound.

Brandon Stark was about to challenge Rhaegar before he was executed. So if he thought he has chance he had to be similar tier with him. So he could probably beat Bronn and maybe keep up with Sandor.

I will take it as stalemate. 5/10 for both if someone wont convince me otherwise.

Interesting match up here. Obviously Dayne and Aemon the Dragonknight are the cream of the crop here; however I do think that Prime Robert and Jaime could give them a good fight before ultimately dying.

It comes down to the remainders and with many of them we are going off of reputation and comments from cannon sources.

We all know what The Hound, Mountain and Bronn are capable of so I'll be quick on them:

The Hound is considered likely the second best swordsman (according to GRRM and other sources) through much of the series, he's big, fast, strong and fairly skilled.

The Mountain is another top swordsman of this generation; he has overwhelming size and strength but relies too much on these things at times.

Bronn is another top swordsman, he's extremely fast, quick, agile and skilled; he's compared to a cat on several occasions in the books and he's extremely dangerous. He'll do what he needs to win.

Now for the other team, we have to go mostly on reputations with these guys:

The Smiling Knight is great, hands down. He was so good that Jaime had proud memories of fighting with him for a short time before Dayne stepped in. The books say that he's like The Mountain if his age because of his savage nature while fighting and fear he instilled, I however would compare him to someone like The Hound.

Brandon Stark is said to be an excellent swordsman and I get the feeling from the books and other comments that he would have been more of a match for Rhaegar. Where Brandon faults is in his arrogance and hot headed nature, this could get him into trouble.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is a hard one because we think that it is Howland Reed but we aren't exactly positive; I am going to assume that he is Reed. I think Reed is a solid warrior but he might be the weakest here. What sets him apart however is his mystery, is he a powerful warg? Does he use poison arrows like others in his area? I believe it is yes to both which helped in the ToJ.

Now as for who wins, simple answer is team All-Star. I believe this because I think that Dayne and Aemon are too much; as I said before, they take out any on the other team including Jaime and Robert especially with superior blades. IMO Aemon and Dayne are more or equally superior to Jaime and Robert than Team Lannister/Baratheon's remainders are to team all star's remainders, if that makes sense.

I also think that The Smiling Knight and Brandon Stark would be a hell of a match up for the Brothers Clegane;this match would not be quick by any stretch of the mind and would likely go as long if not longer than the previously mentioned fight. That would mean regardless of who wins, Aemon and/or Dayne will be there waiting to clean up.

For this fight, I did not give Reed the ability to warg but I did give him poison arrows. I still however think that Bronn would take a small majority over him. But this will not matter as Bronn can beat neither Dayne or Aemon.

I rank the fighters as so:

Aemon = Dayne > Jaime > Robert > Hound = Smiling Knight > Mountain > Brandon = Bronn >> Reed

As I said before, Dayne and Aemon put it over the top for their team. They win 6-7/10

@penderor: I think Brandon and the Hound would have one hell of a fight with the Hound likely winning after an epic duel. It wouldn't be anything easy though.

@rogueshadow: this might be the first time that we've realty disagreed on one if these threads, interesting. The problem we run into is that many on team 2, we are dealing with reputation and comments from sources, wikis and other articles.

I can however vouch for the ASOIAF wiki as it is the real deal and takes information from cannon sources. If there is false information than they will remove it; for instance I remember there was info on there that Helmam Talhart was a beast and killed men left and right in battle, this however showed to he false and was removed by Ran.

Even by reputation, Brandon does not have the reputation to defeat the hound, he fought in no battles and we only know he was the best swordsman of that Stark generation, which is pretty unimpressive, all I recall him doing is getting unhorsed by Rhaegar. All we know about TSM is that he fought Dayne and lost, he was said to be the Gregor Clegane of his today, but that just means he was feared, not that he was a great duellist. The books never say that he fought a good fight with Dayne IIRC, it just says that Dayne cut his sword after duelling, allowed him to get another one and killed him. TSM is still the most impressive of the rest though simply for having fought Dayne though.

I can't even factor the KOTLT.

I just don't think that anybody aside from Dayne and Aemon can keep up with anybody on team 1. They don't have the feats or the hype.

@rogueshadow: I don't think he can beat the Hound but he does have the reputation of an excellent swordsman which leads me to believe that Brandon could give him a fight.

I agree that the feats aren't there because most of them haven't directly been in the books. The Smiling Knigh certainly has the reputation though, he fought a duel with Dayne (even though he lost) and Jaime remembers fondly that he was able to cross swords with him. I do believe he is great simply by reputation.

We don't know a ton about Brandon Stark, we just know that he was an excellent swordsman, he was hot headed and arrogant. And again, I get the feeling that he would have been every bit of a match for Rhaegar in single combat.

@cregan_stark: But, he has 0 feats and 0 hype, Brandon was just said to be an, 'excellent swordsman' that really means nothing, it's incredibly arbitrary, we have no idea how good, so to put him in league with guys like Sandor and Robert is folly, just because he challenged Rhaegar at KL, it doesn't mean he could beat him, let's not forget, he is called the wild wolf, he was foolhardy.

TSM has reputation solely of ferocity and madness, not skill, IIRC, Jaime says of him that he was 'half as big but twice as mad' as the Mountain. Fighting Dayne isn't impressive, Eddard could fight Dayne and lose, anybody could. He has neither feats or hype in my opinion. He's not like Aemon who has tons of hype but relatively few feats, he just has neither that I consider could be placed into the scale of swordsmanship, like Brandon, simply being said to be good is a weak description, how good? We have no idea.

There simply isn't enough for me to put him with them when anybody in the third tier would be considered a great swordsman in relation to the majority of combatants.

@rogueshadow: this is why I said that it's a tough one to justify since with team all star we are using mostly reputation, comments, etc.

But they don't even have that, simply being good doesn't put you on par with Robert Baratheon or Sandor Clegane, nor does being ferocious and mad.

@rogueshadow: If someone unhorse you then he is better than you? Then Loras Tyrell can beat absolutely anyone in GoT and we can consider him the best fighter that ever lived.

Also if I remember corectly, Rhaegar unhorsed even Arthur Dayne.

I am glad its a clean. Dragon and Knight of the Flowers, two slimmest knights in westeros are now the best! All hail them.

@penderor: I didn't even slightly imply that. All I said was that that is the only feat I recall him having and he lost, he doesn't even have any status based on word of mouth that I recall, other than being better than Ned.

@rogueshadow: His feat is the fact he went to challenge Rhaegar in sword combat. So if he thought he has a chance, then he had probably similar skill with him.

He was called the wild wolf, hotheaded and impetuous, his father was being held captive and he was brash, it really doesn't imply anything. Challenging somebody to a battle is not a feat anyway.

@rogueshadow: You would have challenge someone if you wouldnt have chance? With such circumstances?

I am correcting you. The Brandon went to Kings Landing with his father because he wanted to challenge Rhaegar and demanded his sister back. But the Mad King executed them.

My bad, I haven't slept in like, 48 hours.

Also, no I wouldn't, but I'm not Brandon, I'm not wild and foolhardy. Hoster Tully said a much, the very decision to go to Kng's Landing was moronic, if he was stupid enough to do that, he'd be stupid enough to challenge a superior combatant.

The fact he walked into the Red Keep and yelled, 'come and die' is a testament to how stupid he was.

Simply challenging somebody is not a feat.

@rogueshadow: The Robert was arguably too worse fighter than Rhaegar. Yet, Hiswas the fury. If you know what I mean.

I disagree, I put Robert above Rhaegar. They both had relatively equal footing, Robert had the clear advantage of reach from his warhammer compared to Rhaegar's sword but Rhaegar was a much better rider/jouster than Robert, yet Robert still felled him. Both had comparable motivation, Robert his intense love of Lyanna, Rhaegar believed he was saving the ptwp and by extension the world.

Rhaegar goes at the top of tier two and Robert at the bottom of tier one for me. Robert was strong and his weapon was a fantastic foil for a sword, most would not even be able to parry the force of his blow and would have to exert energy moving around it, given the fact that Robert was inhumanly strong.

I am going with the Lannisters/Baratheons.

@rogueshadow: He had weapon advantage plus style fighting. Rhaegar as you said was jouster. By this logic Robert could would beat even Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy.

Plus he was founded in that fight. The wound never healed and he never really recovered from it. From this I assume that Robert is slightly better than Rhaegar around with majority 6-7/10 for him.

This too hard for debate. Brandon was most likely worse than Robert as a fighter but still I think they could have killed each other with Rhaegar as majority for 6/10 for Rhaegar.

You must realise that Brandon is similar fighter to Robert except instead of warhammer he wields Ice. He is exactly the type of fighter who brings problem to swordsman like Rhaegar.

No, by that logic he would not defeat Dayne, Selmy etc they are just too skilled and would dance around him. Not to mention Dayne wielded Dawn, which is forged from a, 'fallen star' and is comparable in quality to Valyrian Steel [probably superior], which we know from Jon is nigh indestructible, so Dayne could parry his blows.

Brandon has no comparable feats or prestige to place him on a level with Robert or Rhaegar, nobody ever places him in that strata in the series.

Yes Robert was wounded in the fight... but you should see the other guy - That's why Robert's in the next level.

He would not bring similar problems to Rhaegar, I undersand what you man due to similarity in weapon size and strength, but while big, he was not as strong as Robert [Ed could barely lift his warhamer, Robert swung it around at great speed, he was practically superhuman, we also know from GRRM that he is a simlar height as BOT, around 6 fot 5"], and he simply is not skilled enough.

@rogueshadow: Yes but ice is lighter than Roberts warhammer. Rhaegar was a light to medium weight. I am just saying that Brandon would have technically same style as Robert. So if it works for stag then it could work even for Brandon.

You said for yourself that Dayne, Selmy would dance around him and then you says that Robert has a great speed skill. Thats a bit contradiction.

And no, Dayne wouldnt be able to parry blows from that Warhammer. Valyrian steel is lighter, undestructible and is supposed to be magical items. It is not increasing user strength. One direct hit into enemy blocking with only regular size sword from Robert and his warhammer and I am guaranteeing you that almost every opponent will drop his weapon.

@penderor: It would not work for Brandon because nothing suggests he is skilled enough.

No it isn't, you really need to start reading my post thoroughly man. Robert is fast, strong and skilled, he's in the low top tier, that doesn't mean he can beat Dayne & Selmy, who are obviously above him.

It wouldn't work for Brandon, I don't know how many times I have to say it but he has zero feats and very little status, he was the best Stark swordsman of his generation, which really isn't saying much since his only competition was Ned, who is only a competent fighter and Benjen, who was barely a man grown when Brandon died.

You know Dayne was about 6 ft 4 you know[since we know Jaime is approx 6ft 2" and Dayne was taller than him]? And Jaime states he is much stronger than him, when considering foes stronger than him [I forget when, it's when he's thinking about how Brienne is stronger than him, it's either during his duel with her in ASOS or in AFFC when he's reading the book of brothers, I forget which]

He could block blows from Robert with Dawn. That I'm confident of. With a regular sword, probably not, but with Dawn I believe the combination of his added speed [to place the blade at a point where less force would be exerted, towards the end of the hammer, rather than what would equate to the pivot close to his hands], strength and the durability of Dawn would allow him to solidly trade blows with Robert's warhammer, despite Robert's inhuman strength.

@rogueshadow: But Dawn is advantage as same is Ice advantage for Brandon. Can you imagine around 5,8-6 feets strong man like Brandon swinging with it against Rhaegar. He cannot block due the fact he should be physically weaker than Brandon. So he can only dodge and block non direct attacks and weakened strikes.

Feats. Do you realise that Rhaegar has technically no sword feats either? From what I deduced Rhaegar striked Robert exactly in the moment when he was about to killing blow so he simply risked and it didnt worked.

Rhaegar has prestige, which in asoiaf is 90% of it, Brandon really doesn't have feats or pestige. Also, Rhaegar won tons of Jousts, while they are not melee feats, it's still a lot more than what Brandon has, which is nothing.

I get what you're saying about Brandon, in terms of him having the edge on him in battle schematics you are right. But nothing suggests Brandon has the skill to implement them against a foe as skilled as Rhaegar

@rogueshadow: Thats why I never said he would take majority. I can only work with the fact he was at least good swordsman.

I am starting to think that Team 2 gets slight majority.

change the knight of the laughing tree(just reasonably good jousting) with Daemon Blackfyre and Brandon stark(maybe good swordsman but among the best) with Barristan the Bold

team 2,all in their prime are among best swordsmen in history,smiling knight being the weakest but still very good

Arthur Dayne,Aemon the Dragonknight,Daemon Blackfyre,Barristan the Bold>The Smiling Knight

Jaime Lannister (both hands)>Robert Baratheon (prime)>The Hound,The Mountain,Bronn

only jamie could go 1vs1 against against team2 members,still in most cases loosing to all except smiling knight,Robert would have bad time with his hammer,the rest can compete only with smiling knight

@czk-21: I believe that Knight of the Laughing Tree is weaker than the Smiling Knight.

Your changes are giving team 2 clear victory.

@penderor: otherwise it wouldnt be all stars:p

given original OP setup it would be close fight,team battles are tricky, in a moment it can be 2 or even 3vs 1 and we cannot tell how good teamplayers they actually are....it can go either way

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is biggest variable since we dont know who it is and how he fight, he just beaten 3 medicore knights in jousting....

so if we try to compare individuals

Robert and Jaime would probably loose to Arthur and Aemon

mountain vs smiling knight-mountain is stronger, SK maybe more ferocious and skilled, maybe 50:50

Bronn vs Brandon-they could be similar level, but Bronn is dirty fighter,so i guess he would win

and what would hound do?if we use just that jousting performance of KotLT then hound wins,but as i said we dont know how good that knight really is.....

@czk-21: Bronn dirty tricks work only against idiots :) I dont see him winning against Ice :D

Everyone dies because in the end - it's GOT.

UGhhhhhh my brain hurts from thinking of who'll win this fight

@penderor: it works against arogant knights+1handed jamie well,possible scenario:

Brandon is hotheaded,he rushes Bronn,Bronn dodges and throw some shit in Brandons face,then cut him open

You people don't understand that we would murk them in real life.

@czk-21: hothead and arogant are two different things althought I quite agree that Bronn will have advantage. But his biggest problem is dueling. He had a problems with Vardis altought it was the most suitable opponent to his fighting style. Brandon is exactly the opponent he dont wants to get. He is bigger, stronger, probably has the same speed and has better weapon and longer reach.

Edit: Judging by your nickname; arent you from Czech Republic?

Team 2 would win

@penderor: we dont know if hes bigger,stronger and so on, we just know he was excellent swordsman,he let himself captured and after that he strangled himself,so we dont know much,i am just telling that if he showed that reckless behaviour against Bronn, he could quite easily end up dead

yep, i am from CZ, my nick has nothing to do with that though:)

btw i wonder how would members of both teams fare against Ser Robert strong without fire and tricks,what do u think?

@czk-21: Robert Strong? Thats interesting question. From what i deduced he is something like Frankenstein creature = undead man created with science. Possible spoiler down there.

Robert Strong is (as I believe) the undead Gregor Clegane. The height fits, the date when he appears fits and Gregor was actually never said to be really dead.

This explenation above means that Robert Strong > that guy mentioned in spoiler via his pain immunity and probably unlimited stamina.

If you are asking who he can beat I think it goes like this.

Robert vs Robert = Robert wins. No really, it depends if Baratheon has the Valyrian steel. I doubt he would be able to smash Gregor into pieces so if he has not Valyrian warhammer he dies. But otherwise he kills him.

Robert vs Jaime = Jaime with Oathkeeper wins and Jaime without dies.

Robert vs the Hound = Robert slight majority.

Robert vs the Mountain = Robert.

Robert vs Bronn = Robert.

Arthur and Aemon both kills Robert.

Robert vs Laughing Tree = Robert.

Robert vs Smiling Knight = probably Robert.

@penderor: well thats not much of a spoiler anybody can deduct that, as undead he may be also stronger then mountain,while keeping his speed, he would not be killable by weapons, since hes dead, 1vs 1 i think he could kill any human fighter

valyrian weapons could cut through his armor, still that would not be enough if they wouldnt manage to cut his arms/head off to incapacitate him,Robert with warhammer wouldnt have a chance since this weapon is made to pierce armor and that wouldnt do much to RS

valyrian swords wielders would have a chance, others are dead

now imagine Robert Strong in huge valyrian armor against both teams combined+any other warrior u like

@czk-21: Everyone jumps on Robert and they will stripp him of his armor :D. Similar to scene when American football players make a pile above the one with the ball. But Robert in Valyrian armor slaughter any warrior 1v1 including Sword of Morning and Dragon Knight. There is a slim chance that someone gets lucky and hits him on the weak uncovered spot or in the eyes but... thats almost impossible.

Let's do a quick analysis the teams first:

Team 1:

Robert: In his prime Robert is an amazing fighter, probably one of the best in the history of Westeros. He was good enough to beat Rhaegar, who is supposedly a top-tier swordsman, BUT I don't recall many high-end swordsmanship feats by him, so this feat of Robert's is put under somewhat of a question mark here. Other than that, he's a great leader.

Jamie: IMO, the best (living) swordsman we've seen since the beginning of the saga. My favorite feat of Jamie's is the time where he fought Brienne after months of captivity, with his hands cuffed. Not much else to say about him, other than the fact that he's really arrogant.

Sandor: The Hound is also one of the best swordsmen we've had the chance to see in ASOIAF. Big, strong, smart, skilled and brutal.

Gregor: Personally, I think The Mountain is very overhyped. Most of what he has is size and reputation, both making him very intimidating. He's very strong and uses extremely durable armor, but when it comes to speed and skill I don't think he has much of either. The Red Viper has already proven that Gregor would be taken down by a fast enough opponent.

Bronn: As much as he's skilled, he's not much more than a sellsword. Yes, he's killed Ser Vardis, an old featless knight, by playing dirty-but even though he's often compared to a cat and is without doubt very skilled-he's not in the league of the other people on this team. He was afraid to face The Mountain in single combat, and considering what I think of Gregor, this is a big lowball for Bronn.

Team 2:

Dayne: The top star in this match. Ned Stark, who's a very wise, experienced warrior, said Dayne is the best fighter he's ever seen, and he's seen many top fighters in his day, like Robert, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower, and probably others like Jaime and his brother Brandon. Jamie once said that Dayne could beat the entire current Kingsguard (which includes Balon Swann and Loras Tyrell) with his left hand while pissing with his right. He's also said to be the deadliest of Aerys Targaryen's Kingsguard, which included Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, and Jonothor Darry. Not to mention the Tower of Joy, where Dayne, Hightower and Whent killed 5 out of 7 of The North's top warriors, with only Ned Stark (who was almost killed by Dayne) and Howland Reed surviving.

Aemon: while there are not many feats told of him, he's a legendary Kingsguard and is told to be one of the greatest swordsmen who ever lived. We do know that he's killed a champion of Dorne during the conquest of Dorne (who was probab;y one of Dorne's best if they sent him). We also know he's won a royal tournament once as a mystery knight, but not much else. What other information we do have, however, is that he's using a Valyrian Steel sword, which should also give him an edge.

Knight of the Laughing Tree: I'll do the same as the others here and assume it's Howland. We do know that Howland is one of the only 2 survivors of the battle in the Tower of Joy, which means he's survived Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne (from whom he's saved Ned Stark). Other than that, there's not too much left to say.

The Smiling Knight: He was the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood, and was described to be cruel, crazy (persumed insane) and fearless. It took Arthur Dayne himself to kill him, and it was a very extended fight.

Brandon Stark: Not many feats for this one. He's a weak link here, though Jamie DID compare Brandon to himself once (though not in terms of skill IIRC).

All in all, I do believe team 2 would win more often than not, with Dayne being the MVP.

@the_red_viper: You forgot to mention Aemon fighting with Cregan Stark who was probably the best warrior in Stark family.

@penderor: i guess it would be possible,question is if they would do it, since as warriors they arent used to strip enemies off...

what about Mag the mighty vs Robert Strong

and Conldhands vs RS

It's said Cregan is the best fighter Aemon's ever fought but I don't recall Cregan being the best in the Stark bloodline. But if it was written somewhere I'll be glad if you show me.

@the_red_viper: it does not say that Cregan is the best of the Stark line but I assume so because he's the only one discussed on this level. I bet Artos Stark was a badass at one point in time though.

Nice break down in all. As for Bronn, Tyrion said that he's the best he has seen outside of Jaime which is a big compliment. Also, in the books I don't remember him being afraid of The Mountain, he was offered so much by Cersei that it would be foolish to fight. Let's also not forget that he beat Ser Balman in single combat.

She had seen Bronn fight on the high road; it was no accident that he had survived the journey while other men had died. He moved like a panther, and that ugly sword of his seemed a part of his arm.[6]

That is Cat's thoughts on Bronn.

Also I think Brandon is under sold due to lack of feats, it sucks that we don't see more from him but he's said to be excellent.