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#1 Posted by Youngcircle (408 posts) - - Show Bio

No prep. 
Random encounter. 
Gambit gets his staff, five decks of explosive cards, and Mister X gets two adamantium katanas, machine gun, and baseball. 
Morals apply. 
Location: Brooklyn 

#2 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit dies

#3 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

Remy stomps.

#4 Posted by Captain_Justice95 (399 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit
#5 Posted by Renny (507 posts) - - Show Bio

THe Cajun ftw
#6 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit gets destroyed. Succinctly. Tell me, how is Gambit going to defeat someone who knows what he'll do before he does it and has combat skills to back up this power that would make Captain America blush with envy?
#7 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Gambit gets destroyed. Succinctly. Tell me, how is Gambit going to defeat someone who knows what he'll do before he does it and has combat skills to back up this power that would make Captain America blush with envy?
Mister X gets destroyed. He won't know what Gambit will do, because Gambit is resistant to telepathy.
 

Mister X was beaten by Iron Fist and Wolverine. I don't know how that would make Cap blush with envy. He is also much more agile than Mister X. A single charged card will kill Mister X easily.
Gambit stomps this effortlessly.
#8 Edited by Nefarious (19500 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. X wins.

Online
#9 Posted by PowerHerc (82612 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. X wins. Gambit is in way over his head here.

#10 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit wins effortlessly.
Mister X is not getting through the explosions.

#11 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gremlin From Kremlin said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Gambit gets destroyed. Succinctly. Tell me, how is Gambit going to defeat someone who knows what he'll do before he does it and has combat skills to back up this power that would make Captain America blush with envy?
Mister X gets destroyed. He won't know what Gambit will do, because Gambit is resistant to telepathy.
 
Mister X was beaten by Iron Fist and Wolverine. I don't know how that would make Cap blush with envy. He is also much more agile than Mister X. A single charged card will kill Mister X easily. Gambit stomps this effortlessly.

Mister X has low end telepathy, yes, but he is not reading Remy's mind per se. He plugs into brainwaves and his reflexes react automatically. It's more like Spiderman's spidersense in that way, though instead of predicting/reacting to danger, he reacts intuitively to his opponent's attack patterns.  Though there are contradictory explainations of his power, this is the most recent one and I can post a pic of it if you want to see it :)  
Now as to the points you raise;
1) Wolverine beat Mister X by going Berserk. His attack patterns while berserk were entirely too unpredictible. Remy has no such ability (even if he did, he is an inferior fighter).
2) Iron Fist is probably even a better hand to hander than Logan and beat Mister X in very much the same way. Only using drunken boxing/kung fu. No brainwaves to lock onto. Both were forms of mindless fighting. Again, Remy has no such ability. 
 
Conslusion? ABC logic of this variety seldom works. And again, Mister X is not reading Remy's mind when using his power but, rather, locking onto brainwaves (neural transmitters) so Gambit's TP resistence (such as it is) is meaningless. And Wolverine is just about every bit as TP resistant as Remy. Prof. X has struggled with Logan's noggin for years, but Mister X still schooled him in his first appearance (which is PIS as most peak human's should not put down someone as durable as Logan is so easily regardless of skill IMO). 
 
3) Most importantly, if we want to use this ABC logic here, both Wolverine and Iron Fist would also destroy Gambit. Remy is a tier below Wolverine and two tiers below Iron Fist (in my opinion) when taking into consideration all powers and abilities.  
 
#12 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nefarious said:
Mr. X wins.
#13 Posted by progenitor (7534 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. X takes LeBeau down.
#14 Edited by Renny (507 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess people don't know Remy is immune to telepaths, which has alaready been mentioned. Gambit is really underrated. I don't accept that elaborate explanation of how X's powers work. Marvel lists him as a telepath. That's what he is.
#15 Edited by progenitor (7534 posts) - - Show Bio

hrm.  I did forget about his immunity to telepathy, that would be a factor in this, however, isn't Mr. X skilled even without the telepathy? I seem to recall him still looking pretty impressive in combat.
#16 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@progenitor: Yes, He says he knows every terrestrial martial art and trained under the most skilled martial arts masters in the world, and once he was done learning from them he fought and killed them all.
#17 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@progenitor said:
hrm.  I did forget about his immunity to telepathy, that would be a factor in this, however, isn't Mr. X skilled even without the telepathy? I seem to recall him still looking pretty impressive in combat.

As I mentioned above though... Mister X is not strictly TP. It's not like he needs to break into Remy's mind. That's not how his power works; 
 
 
 
Additionally, he has master every form of martial combat known to man... and then Kree and Shi'ar as well! 
 
 
 
His reflexes automatically map onto brainwaves. He's not reading Remy's thoughts as such. I will assume Remy has brainwaves? Neuro transmittors? So I don't see Remy being immune to Mister X.
#18 Posted by God_Spawn (37560 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it depends on starting distance. Remy, at a distance, whether X can read his mind or not, has a wide area to dodge when Remy throws his cards and ontop of that has usually multiple to dodge at a time. This isn't like dodging arrows and blocking machine gun fire with his sword. Eventually Gambit is gonna tag him if he keeps the distance just due to the wide area of effect with his cards. If X can get in close he will pick Gambit apart rather easily.

Moderator
#19 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII: Thank you.
#20 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:
@Super_SoldierXII: Thank you.

NP :)
#21 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Gremlin From Kremlin said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Gambit gets destroyed. Succinctly. Tell me, how is Gambit going to defeat someone who knows what he'll do before he does it and has combat skills to back up this power that would make Captain America blush with envy?
Mister X gets destroyed. He won't know what Gambit will do, because Gambit is resistant to telepathy.
 
Mister X was beaten by Iron Fist and Wolverine. I don't know how that would make Cap blush with envy. He is also much more agile than Mister X. A single charged card will kill Mister X easily. Gambit stomps this effortlessly.
Mister X has low end telepathy, yes, but he is not reading Remy's mind per se. He plugs into brainwaves and his reflexes react automatically. It's more like Spiderman's spidersense in that way, though instead of predicting/reacting to danger, he reacts intuitively to his opponent's attack patterns.  Though there are contradictory explainations of his power, this is the most recent one and I can post a pic of it if you want to see it :)  Now as to the points you raise;1) Wolverine beat Mister X by going Berserk. His attack patterns while berserk were entirely too unpredictible. Remy has no such ability (even if he did, he is an inferior fighter).2) Iron Fist is probably even a better hand to hander than Logan and beat Mister X in very much the same way. Only using drunken boxing/kung fu. No brainwaves to lock onto. Both were forms of mindless fighting. Again, Remy has no such ability.  Conslusion? ABC logic of this variety seldom works. And again, Mister X is not reading Remy's mind when using his power but, rather, locking onto brainwaves (neural transmitters) so Gambit's TP resistence (such as it is) is meaningless. And Wolverine is just about every bit as TP resistant as Remy. Prof. X has struggled with Logan's noggin for years, but Mister X still schooled him in his first appearance (which is PIS as most peak human's should not put down someone as durable as Logan is so easily regardless of skill IMO).  3) Most importantly, if we want to use this ABC logic here, both Wolverine and Iron Fist would also destroy Gambit. Remy is a tier below Wolverine and two tiers below Iron Fist (in my opinion) when taking into consideration all powers and abilities.   
Exactly, there are lots of contradictions with Mister X's abilities to predict movements, but his original one was telepathy. He loses to people who he can't read. And he won't be able to get into Gambit's head, no matter what.
1) Yes, Wolverine has beaten Mr. X and his healing factor and skeleton was too much for Mister X to overcome. He is not much worse as a fighter, he stalemeated Daredevil with his skill alone. Daredevil has beaten Wolverine also, as well as Captain America and Batroc.
2) This is just proving my point, he can't beat people who he can't predict. If he knows EXACTLY what the next movement of the person will be, then, obviously, he will win, that is too great of an advantage. But when he can't read the thoughts/brainwaves, he loses and cries with a feeling of deficiency. Another example of that would be Luke Cage, who may be an inferior fighter to Gambit. Remy HAS an ability to overcome telepathy. Originally, Mister X was a telepath. And, even if he knows what Gambit will do next, he still is not getting past the exploding cards.
Wolverine only has the resistance to telepathy when he goes berserk.
 
3. Nah, they really wouldn't. Logan is not getting through the explosive cards and soon or late, he will get knocked out by them. When he is knocked out, Gambit charges his skeleton. BOOOM! He's dead. 
Iron Fist is good, but Gambit is simply to agile for him. While Gambit is able to keep him at a distance with his cards, Danny can't land a hit on him, AND Gambit is able to dodge his Chi energy blasts, like nothing.
 
 Display of Gambit's agility:
 

 

 

 
The power output of the charged card is able to make Juggernaut fly. Mister X is not surviving a single one of these:
 
 

 

 
Dodging a bunch of lasers from all sides and see how close the cards are to each other. It's impossible to dodge this:
 
 

 
Again, the explosive power of the cards. Putting down a huge Sentinel:
 

 
 
 
 

 


 
And, if you want to get into PIS here, Gambit is putting down Gladiator here. Gladiator once withstood a nova:
 

 
Nothing prevents Gambit from charging Mister X's swords or clothes, because here, he charges a dish with his eyes, at a distance:
 

 
The power of his cards lets him easily blow up a truck:
 
 

 

 
Here, Gambit shows very impressive agility, being able to dodge automatic machine gun fire point blank, jump around it, using his acrobatic skills, like it's nothing. Again, the destructive power of his cards is able to destroy machine guns. The power of his bo-staff is able to push the guys wearing heavy armor. Those are a few out of 5000 skills he is displaying here:
 

 
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
It doesn't take him so long of a time to charge such large objects, like cars, for example. Just a touch:
 
 
Gambit is probably the most acrobatic street leveler in Marvel. Just look at this:
 
 
 

 Accuracy with the cards:
 

 
 
 
It doesn't take him too long to charge someone's head:
 
 
 
Here, it says that Gambit's thoughts are like Quicksilver's. And if you read the Siege, you would know what Quicksilver did to Mister X. Here's your ABC logic again:
 
 
Catches a projectile, after it is being fired. This is why Mister X will fail to tag him with his sword:
 

 
 
 
 
 
Here, he blocks Forge's gunfire with his staff:
 
 
 
Okay.
So, that being said, Gambit's agility >>>>>>>> Mister X's agility. Mister X is not getting through the cards AND he won't survive taking a signle one of them. He won't be able to tag Gambit with any projectiles, either. Even if he DOES throw something at Gambit, Gambit will catch it, charge, and throw it back at him. Mister X may know that Gambit will throw the cards, but it will only worsen his last memories before his death.
#22 Posted by Renny (507 posts) - - Show Bio

Friggin Amen on all those scans. Gambit need a respect thread. Im so inspired I might start talking like him in all threads from now on.
#23 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gremlin From Kremlin: Alot of scans, and some of them are too big to see.
#24 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ren said:
Friggin Amen on all those scans. Gambit need a respect thread. Im so inspired I might start talking like him in all threads from now on.
No, please, don't! His accent is annoying..
#25 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gremlin From Kremlin
 
Thanks for the scans. 
 
Listen, I actually like Gambit. And maybe he does need a healthy respect thread here on the Vine. Good on you. Have is first appearance in Uncanny and have been following him at least loosly since. 
A few things.  
First, other characters have been refering to Mister X's abilities as low end TP. But you don't see Emma using her TP in such a way not just because she doesn't have the hand to hand skills to do so, but because actions are faster than registered thought. Bye the time she registered what thoughts she was supposed to be reading, it would be too late to react. So, Marvel's modern take on Mister X's abilities are just what I posted;  
 

 
 
I will use the most modern definition of Mister X's abilities here as this explanation is the only one that makes sense. And this is only fair. He was a character in development. Lest we forget, Wolverine didn't have a healing factor until much later in his career as well. Characters take time to get fleshed out.  
However, Drunken Kung Fu, as in the case of Iron Fist, and Logan's berskerer style are mindless styles. The body reacts without such transmissions being emitted in any reliable fashion. Gambit does not have these abilities. 
 
Gambit's thoughts may move like Quicksilver, but he most certainly doesn't. Quicksilver is millions of times faster than Remy; 
 
 
Halfway around the world in 92 seconds. Nuff said. So he should be able to do this; 
  

 

 
 
Whereas Remy doing so is extremely questionable. Pietro even admits he ain't a fighter and that Mister X is among the best.  
Again, Remy has lightning quick, superhuman reflexes. But Mister X ain't no slouch. Gambit's brainwaves may move like quicksilver, but the brainwaves trigger an automatic reflex response in Mister X regardless of speed. And again, Mister X is fast. Damn fast. He's a bullet timer himself; 
 
 
 
Consider the source of the ballistics. Black Widow. That ain't no rookie trying to tag Mister X. Nothing doing. Mister X is fast. Remy would not hit him so easily with projectiles.Now, Remy may be acrobatic (was a thief afterall). He may have superhuman reflexes making him very difficult to tag, a bullet dodger extraordinaire, but he is not an extraordinary fighter. You don't see martial artists winning fights with back flips. Here's what Marvel's database has to say about Remy's abilities; http://marvel.com/universe/Gambit  
Gambit has level 4 hand to hand skills according to Marvel. No where near Mister X's (or Wolverine and Iron Fist's) level 7 skills. Remy has the acrobatics and reflexes to keep up with DD perhaps, yes. But he is not the fighter DD is. He relies on his mutant power to aid him in battle. Bullseye gives him a hard time in hand to hand and puts him down; 
 
 So while Gambit has the reflexes to jump, dive and roll with DD. If he were to stop and go strictly hand to hand, he wouldn't be able to keep up in my opinion. Or at least he should not be able to based on a gross lack of hand to hand feats compared to DD. I will agree that his superhuman reflexes allow him to hang with Marvel's martial bigboys. Much like Spiderman's spidersense, speed and agility do (despite his lack of hand to hand training). 
 
In conclusion, Mister X's skills and speed are such that, if you use Mister X's modern take on how his abilities work, he should have a distinct advantage against Gambit in battle.
#26 Posted by God_Spawn (37560 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII: Hey quick tip, becareful with using Marvel.com as a resource, they are fan-edited just like Marvel.wikia.com. Alot of their info is  false or not entirely accurate info.
Moderator
#27 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn said:


                    @Super_SoldierXII: Hey quick tip, becareful with using Marvel.com as a resource, they are fan-edited just like Marvel.wikia.com. Alot of their info is  false or not entirely accurate info.

                   

               

Ya... I knows it. But I post it primarily for the power grid. Not for the extraneous information held within. The Power Grid distinguishes between fan votes and official ratings. I rely on the person perusing said information to distinguish between the two. 
But thanks for the friendly heads up.
#28 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII: What issue is that from where he's fighting Quicksilver?
 
I think what Gremlin From Kremlin is trying to say is that his speed advantage won't really help much since he has his cards and could just  send several in X's direction, so even if he dodges the cards will still be exploding all around him. That would put him down  considering who it has worked on in the past. I honestly don't see how he'll get around that myself.
#29 Posted by SC (12892 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn said:
I think it depends on starting distance. Remy, at a distance, whether X can read his mind or not, has a wide area to dodge when Remy throws his cards and ontop of that has usually multiple to dodge at a time. This isn't like dodging arrows and blocking machine gun fire with his sword. Eventually Gambit is gonna tag him if he keeps the distance just due to the wide area of effect with his cards. If X can get in close he will pick Gambit apart rather easily.
 
This ^^
Moderator Online
#30 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:


                    @Super_SoldierXII: What issue is that from where he's fighting Quicksilver?  I think what Gremlin From Kremlin is trying to say is that his speed advantage won't really help much since he has his cards and could just  send several in X's direction, so even if he dodges the cards will still be exploding all around him. That would put him down  considering who it has worked on in the past. I honestly don't see how he'll get around that myself.

                   

               

Fight is from Thunderbolts # 143 I believe. 
 
Like god_spawn said, I believe the outcome of this fight depends on;  

1) The starting distance between the two combatants; 
2) Whether or not Mister X's abilities can get a read on Gambit. I feel, personally, based off recent showing and explanations of his abilities, that they should. 
 
Also, I'd like to see scans of Gambit's cards, or other small projectiles, thrown and exploding with such a powerful area of effect that Mister X could not possible move to avoid and would inevitably be KO'd or killed due to said blast. The force and impact of Gambit's kinetically charged objects are in direct proportion to A) how much charge he places into said object (needs time) and B) the size of the object in question. Has this changed?  
Until I can be convinced of the inevitability of such an outcome, I remain with my initial majority ruling for Mister X. Again, distance wasn't specified so I assume Gambit and Mister X are close enough for both to engage in battle.
#31 Posted by SC (12892 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII said:
  The Power Grid distinguishes between fan votes and official ratings. I rely on the person perusing said information to distinguish between the two. But thanks for the friendly heads up.
 
Just to echo the previous friendly heads up. Even the official power grids are bugged at Marvel.com. No joke. The system database is extremely bugged. If you want like... super super evidence for just if you come across a Dragynwulf around this site ask him, or just inquire at the Marvel.com boards.  
 
Best place to look for Grid info, is the fanbase Marvel Wikia, which, isn't official, but... they list their sources and if you find a profile with a powergrid, you can check to see if its from the Official Printed Handbooks. So generally their grid stuff is most objective and truthful. 
Moderator Online
#32 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII: Man, its great to have good debaters back on this site. Great scans and great explanations, man.
#33 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm so close to just deleting two posts on this page because of overuse of images...

Gambit can create explosions with a large enough range to catch Mr. X even if he knows where the cards are going to land, similar to how Songbird took Mr. X down even though he knew the attack was coming. Gambit's resistance to TP isn't really necessary, but if it works, even a little bit, it only helps him, but I'll get back to that later.

As for the idea that Mr. X's ability isn't telepathic because Emma Frost doesn't use her abilities like that, it's kind of silly. Emma Frost doesn't have to do something for it to be a telepathic ability. Telepaths can use their powers in lots of ways and they don't all use them the same way even if they have that ability. Emma Frost can do things other psychics don't, and sometimes it's because they don't have her ability (which is more a skill thing that an out-right power thing), and other times its just because it's not how they work. Not everyone specializes in psychic surgery like she does, but it doesn't mean they can't. And it would be ridiculous of Emma to do what X does since she doesn't engage in hand to hand combat. That's simply her not her style, and honestly, that's what it's about. Psylocke and Prodigy are both telepaths and they can do exactly what Mr. X does. It makes plenty of sense to me that characters that actually fight would use their telepathy that way (either naturally or through conscious training). The speed comment also seems wrong to me. Telepaths in Marvel have been shown to have full conversations and interactions in a sort of compressed time that doesn't interfere with the flow of the physical world, so saying that Emma couldn't do it fast enough doesn't work for me and doesn't fit with what's been shown in comics.

I also find the distinction of "modern" in reference to the interpretation of Mr. X's powers funny. It's not like he's been around for decades and was just recently brought back and modified. This is not the same evolution of character that occurs with long-lived creations. It's writers that know how Mr. X's powers are supposed to look in a fight, but not knowing exactly why and each using their own reason. Whatever the reason though, Mr. X somehow makes a connection with the conscious thoughts of his opponent at the motor planning stage and reacts (either consciously or unconsciously) with that knowledge in mind. Gambit's conscious thoughts (and in many cases even the presence of his mind) are shielded or hidden from those who would look. If Mr. X's power reads mental activity and because of the energy coursing though Gambit, his mental activity can't be read, then Mr. X can't predict him. That's not an instant win for Gambit by any means, Mr. X is still a better fighter, but I don't think he's getting added help from his powers on this one.

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#34 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:


                    @Super_SoldierXII said:
  The Power Grid distinguishes between fan votes and official ratings. I rely on the person perusing said information to distinguish between the two. But thanks for the friendly heads up.

                   

               
 Just to echo the previous friendly heads up. Even the official power grids are bugged at Marvel.com. No joke. The system database is extremely bugged. If you want like... super super evidence for just if you come across a Dragynwulf around this site ask him, or just inquire at the Marvel.com boards.   Best place to look for Grid info, is the fanbase Marvel Wikia, which, isn't official, but... they list their sources and if you find a profile with a powergrid, you can check to see if its from the Official Printed Handbooks. So generally their grid stuff is most objective and truthful. 

                   

               

Thanks! :)
#35 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII: You're welcome. And I actually don't like Gambit. In fact, I really like Mister X better.
No matter whether Mister X has telepathy or not, it will not help him in this fight. 
And on the first scan, he actually got his brain fried by Ghost in that issue.
When Emma reads minds and registers things, she can't react quick enough because she is nowhere near Mister X's level of fighting skill, that's why.
Just because Gambit can't go berserk or use drunken style, doesn't mean Mister X can still predict his movements. Both, Logan and Danny beat Mister X by not giving him a forewarning on what move they will do next. 
And then Amadeus Cho owned him with a quiver of arrows. Now, imagine what a bunch of flying explosive cards will do. 
By the way, Pietro even said that Mister X reads minds. What does Mister X blocking bullets have to do with anything here? He is not blocking the cards, because they will explode. Regardless of that, you have seen the scans where Gambit effortlessly dodge bullets, block the gun fire from Forge and even catches a bullet flawlessly. I agree that Mister X is much better of a fighter than Gambit, but the point is that Mister X is not getting through the explosive cards. The longer Gambit charges a card, the more radius of the explosion will be. Mister X has been tagged before, and it is nothing special for Gambit to duplicate with a bunch of exploding objects. Gambit stalemated Daredevil by skill alone, with no cards. Daredevil has beaten Wolverine and Captain America before.
By the way, those scans of Bullseye and Gambit are out of context. In the beginning of the fight, Bullseye stabbed Gambit in the gut AND Gambit's cards didn't even explode when they came in contact with objects, which clearly states how much knowledge the author of the comic had about Gambit.
Under normal circumstances and with proper writing, Gambit would stomps Bullseye.
The speed is not an issue for Gambit, because he himself is a great acrobat and is a bullet timer. Gambit is not fighting him in hand-to-hand combat, while Mister X is not going to get through the explosive cards. And again, Gambit charged a plate with his EYES, not hands, so why can't he do the same to Mister X's swords (if he has them), or even clothes?
#36 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@cascadeking09 said:


                    @Super_SoldierXII: What issue is that from where he's fighting Quicksilver?  I think what Gremlin From Kremlin is trying to say is that his speed advantage won't really help much since he has his cards and could just  send several in X's direction, so even if he dodges the cards will still be exploding all around him. That would put him down  considering who it has worked on in the past. I honestly don't see how he'll get around that myself.

                   

              
Fight is from Thunderbolts # 143 I believe.  Like god_spawn said, I believe the outcome of this fight depends on;   1) The starting distance between the two combatants; 2) Whether or not Mister X's abilities can get a read on Gambit. I feel, personally, based off recent showing and explanations of his abilities, that they should.  Also, I'd like to see scans of Gambit's cards, or other small projectiles, thrown and exploding with such a powerful area of effect that Mister X could not possible move to avoid and would inevitably be KO'd or killed due to said blast. The force and impact of Gambit's kinetically charged objects are in direct proportion to A) how much charge he places into said object (needs time) and B) the size of the object in question. Has this changed?  Until I can be convinced of the inevitability of such an outcome, I remain with my initial majority ruling for Mister X. Again, distance wasn't specified so I assume Gambit and Mister X are close enough for both to engage in battle.
Ok, thanks.  I actually just got started on thunderbolts yesterday, it's really good.
 
I agree, if he can get in close then it's over for Gambit.
 
I also agree with this. I don't really know enough about Gambit to say what his cards will do, I was just going with what I saw in those scans and what I read in his post. Now that I think about it none of those blasts were used on people who could've avoided it even Gladiator was right on top of him when he got hit, so that is a good point.
#37 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:


                   

I'm so close to just deleting two posts on this page because of overuse of images...

Gambit can create explosions with a large enough range to catch Mr. X even if he knows where the cards are going to land, similar to how Songbird took Mr. X down even though he knew the attack was coming. Gambit's resistance to TP isn't really necessary, but if it works, even a little bit, it only helps him, but I'll get back to that later.

As for the idea that Mr. X's ability isn't telepathic because Emma Frost doesn't use her abilities like that, it's kind of silly. Emma Frost doesn't have to do something for it to be a telepathic ability. Telepaths can use their powers in lots of ways and they don't all use them the same way even if they have that ability. Emma Frost can do things other psychics don't, and sometimes it's because they don't have her ability (which is more a skill thing that an out-right power thing), and other times its just because it's not how they work. Not everyone specializes in psychic surgery like she does, but it doesn't mean they can't. And it would be ridiculous of Emma to do what X does since she doesn't engage in hand to hand combat. That's simply her not her style, and honestly, that's what it's about. Psylocke and Prodigy are both telepaths and they can do exactly what Mr. X does. It makes plenty of sense to me that characters that actually fight would use their telepathy that way (either naturally or through conscious training). The speed comment also seems wrong to me. Telepaths in Marvel have been shown to have full conversations and interactions in a sort of compressed time that doesn't interfere with the flow of the physical world, so saying that Emma couldn't do it fast enough doesn't work for me and doesn't fit with what's been shown in comics.

I also find the distinction of "modern" in reference to the interpretation of Mr. X's powers funny. It's not like he's been around for decades and was just recently brought back and modified. This is not the same evolution of character that occurs with long-lived creations. It's writers that know how Mr. X's powers are supposed to look in a fight, but not knowing exactly why and each using their own reason. Whatever the reason though, Mr. X somehow makes a connection with the conscious thoughts of his opponent at the motor planning stage and reacts (either consciously or unconsciously) with that knowledge in mind. Gambit's conscious thoughts (and in many cases even the presence of his mind) are shielded or hidden from those who would look. If Mr. X's power reads mental activity and because of the energy coursing though Gambit, his mental activity can't be read, then Mr. X can't predict him. That's not an instant win for Gambit by any means, Mr. X is still a better fighter, but I don't think he's getting added help from his powers on this one.



                   

               

I felt that the handful of scans I posted were pertinent to the debate at hand. But I can definitely tone it down if this would be better :) 
 
1) I wasnt' intimating Mister X's powers weren't TP based because Emma didn't evidence the same usage. Perhaps I didn't express myself well enough. I was saying Mister X's TP abilities being solely TP based would not be enough to allow him to react the way he does in battle. Nor would epic martial abilities be enough. The reaction to action time would need to be instantaneous. Faster than thought for his abilities to be realistically effective. This is what the latest writer Mr. Jeff Parker was probably catching onto. I feel he got it right.  Even if Emma (or any other TPer) were extremely proficient in hand to hand, plugging into their opponent's minds would not be enough. Fighting is not like philosophising about the prolegemena to future metaphysics. Thought to action timing is almost immediate. In other words, he would need to react as fast as his opponent acts which would have to be by default faster than his opponent thinks. TP just ain't cutting it. Mr Parker's explanation does.
2) I know Mister X is a relatively new character. My point wasn't to say he is in need of modification or an update because he's been around for so long. My point was to say how his power works exactly is still being fleshed out. And, as aforementioned, Mr. Parker's take makes the most sense to me thus far. 
Whether Mister X gets added help from his power, depends on our accepted interpretation on how said power works. If we accept Mr. Parker's take, it should very well work despite Remy's thoughts being shielded. Neuro tramsmitters are not related solely to thought.  
Again, the outcome of this fight probably does depend on the starting distance apart and on whether Mister X's abilities work on Remy. An interesting debate to be had there indeed. :)
#38 Posted by theicon (1797 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain_Justice95: zod beats both lol   but  x  kills remy
#39 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

@cascadeking09: ...Yeah, except that one of the scans shows that just 3 cards he pulled out a second before were enough to blow up a two-level bus/truck full of goons. That's an explosion bigger than a single person could get out of the way of and it took him no time at all to charge his cards that much. Another scan shows him charging up a whole car for the Thing with a quick touch. It doesn't take him long to charge up objects and his explosions cover a large area if he wants them too. He could easily throw a few cards spaced out so that it's not just one bus-sized explosion but say four. Think Mr. X could avoid an explosion the size of four of those huge vehicles? 6? 8? It would be no trouble at all for Gambit to spread the cards out or simply charge them more to get the desired effect.

And it's not like once X gets close the fight is over. X is easily the better fighter, but Gambit won't just be dropped instantly. Not only is he good a good enough fighter to create some space for himself, he's a reckless enough fighter to drop a card between them to blow them apart. He could even use the close range fight to charge X if he wants to. He recently charged one of Daken's fists when he swung at him and blew it up. Close range would be dangerous for Gambit, but not necessarily the end of the fight.

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#40 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gremlin From Kremlin said:
@Super_SoldierXII: You're welcome. And I actually don't like Gambit. In fact, I really like Mister X better.No matter whether Mister X has telepathy or not, it will not help him in this fight.  And on the first scan, he actually got his brain fried by Ghost in that issue. When Emma reads minds and registers things, she can't react quick enough because she is nowhere near Mister X's level of fighting skill, that's why. Just because Gambit can't go berserk or use drunken style, doesn't mean Mister X can still predict his movements. Both, Logan and Danny beat Mister X by not giving him a forewarning on what move they will do next.  And then Amadeus Cho owned him with a quiver of arrows. Now, imagine what a bunch of flying explosive cards will do.  By the way, Pietro even said that Mister X reads minds. What does Mister X blocking bullets have to do with anything here? He is not blocking the cards, because they will explode. Regardless of that, you have seen the scans where Gambit effortlessly dodge bullets, block the gun fire from Forge and even catches a bullet flawlessly. I agree that Mister X is much better of a fighter than Gambit, but the point is that Mister X is not getting through the explosive cards. The longer Gambit charges a card, the more radius of the explosion will be. Mister X has been tagged before, and it is nothing special for Gambit to duplicate with a bunch of exploding objects. Gambit stalemated Daredevil by skill alone, with no cards. Daredevil has beaten Wolverine and Captain America before. By the way, those scans of Bullseye and Gambit are out of context. In the beginning of the fight, Bullseye stabbed Gambit in the gut AND Gambit's cards didn't even explode when they came in contact with objects, which clearly states how much knowledge the author of the comic had about Gambit. Under normal circumstances and with proper writing, Gambit would stomps Bullseye. The speed is not an issue for Gambit, because he himself is a great acrobat and is a bullet timer. Gambit is not fighting him in hand-to-hand combat, while Mister X is not going to get through the explosive cards. And again, Gambit charged a plate with his EYES, not hands, so why can't he do the same to Mister X's swords (if he has them), or even clothes?

                   

               

I actually addressed most of your points iterated here in my explanations to my scans above. Including, but not limited to, why I used Emma as an example as to how TP works. In short, TP along with the requisite martial skills, are not nearly enough to explain how or why Mister X can react instantaneously to an opponents bad intentions even before said opponent can act on his own intent. Conversely, Mr. Jeff Parker's explanation is far more sufficient to this end in my opinion. Whether you accept that or not is entirely your choice. 
I respect your opinion, you make some valid points and yes, Remy may very well take this. I feel due to points explained, that it's Mister X's fight to lose (unless they start with reasonable distance between them and depending on which version of Mister X's abilities we wish to find most credible). 
 
Thanks for the debate!
#41 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@texasdeathmatch said:


                    @Super_SoldierXII: Man, its great to have good debaters back on this site. Great scans and great explanations, man.

                   

               

Thanks for the vote of confidence!
#42 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

I felt that the handful of scans I posted were pertinent to the debate at hand. But I can definitely tone it down if this would be better :) 1) I wasnt' intimating Mister X's powers weren't TP based because Emma didn't evidence the same usage. Perhaps I didn't express myself well enough. I was saying Mister X's TP abilities being solely TP based would not be enough to allow him to react the way he does in battle. Nor would epic martial abilities be enough. The reaction to action time would need to be instantaneous. Faster than thought for his abilities to be realistically effective. This is what the latest writer Mr. Jeff Parker was probably catching onto. I feel he got it right. Even if Emma (or any other TPer) were extremely proficient in hand to hand, plugging into their opponent's minds would not be enough. Fighting is not like philosophising about the prolegemena to future metaphysics. Thought to action timing is almost immediate. In other words, he would need to react as fast as his opponent acts which would have to be by default faster than his opponent thinks. TP just ain't cutting it. Mr Parker's explanation does.2) I know Mister X is a relatively new character. My point wasn't to say he is in need of modification or an update because he's been around for so long. My point was to say how his power works exactly is still being fleshed out. And, as aforementioned, Mr. Parker's take makes the most sense to me thus far. Whether Mister X gets added help from his power, depends on our accepted interpretation on how said power works. If we accept Mr. Parker's take, it should very well work despite Remy's thoughts being shielded. Neuro tramsmitters are not related solely to thought. Again, the outcome of this fight probably does depend on the starting distance apart and on whether Mister X's abilities work on Remy. An interesting debate to be had there indeed. :)

Prodigy can do the same thing and his ability are purely telepathic. So can Psylocke. They can both read an opponents next attack and do something about it. Granted, both can do other things, but they don't need anything but telepathy to do what Mr. X does or something very close. I'm not saying it's strictly telepathy (I don't think it really matters) but I don't believe simple telepathy would be insufficient to do what he does.

Unless I'm missing a scan somewhere, you're switching between brainwaves and neurotransmitters when they don't mean the same thing. The scan you said you were following has Mr. X saying he tracks brainwaves. I'm not sure how well he's studied his own powers or if he's qualified to make that judgement, but assuming he has and he is, that's not the same as neurotransmitters. Neurology isn't my field, but it does crossover with what I study and from what I recall, neurotransmitters are the chemicals passed in synapses while brainwaves are the electrical activity. So if Mr. X is right, he's reading the mental energy (and to me, that seems pretty telepathic) put off by someone's brain and his reacts to it (by his reflexes preparing to respond to what he's reading). Gambit's mind is immune to telepathic linking (Xavier's words, he says he can't create a mind link, which again, seems pretty similar to what Mr. X needs to do if he's linking his reflexes to someone else's mind) because of the energy interference created by his powers. It seems to me that Mr. X reads energy. If so, then the kinetic energy that Gambit produces which messes with other telepaths attempts to link with his mind would similarly interfere with Mr. X's attempt to read his brain waves and link with his mind.

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#43 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6210 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:



                   

@Super_SoldierXII said:

I felt that the handful of scans I posted were pertinent to the debate at hand. But I can definitely tone it down if this would be better :) 1) I wasnt' intimating Mister X's powers weren't TP based because Emma didn't evidence the same usage. Perhaps I didn't express myself well enough. I was saying Mister X's TP abilities being solely TP based would not be enough to allow him to react the way he does in battle. Nor would epic martial abilities be enough. The reaction to action time would need to be instantaneous. Faster than thought for his abilities to be realistically effective. This is what the latest writer Mr. Jeff Parker was probably catching onto. I feel he got it right. Even if Emma (or any other TPer) were extremely proficient in hand to hand, plugging into their opponent's minds would not be enough. Fighting is not like philosophising about the prolegemena to future metaphysics. Thought to action timing is almost immediate. In other words, he would need to react as fast as his opponent acts which would have to be by default faster than his opponent thinks. TP just ain't cutting it. Mr Parker's explanation does.2) I know Mister X is a relatively new character. My point wasn't to say he is in need of modification or an update because he's been around for so long. My point was to say how his power works exactly is still being fleshed out. And, as aforementioned, Mr. Parker's take makes the most sense to me thus far. Whether Mister X gets added help from his power, depends on our accepted interpretation on how said power works. If we accept Mr. Parker's take, it should very well work despite Remy's thoughts being shielded. Neuro tramsmitters are not related solely to thought. Again, the outcome of this fight probably does depend on the starting distance apart and on whether Mister X's abilities work on Remy. An interesting debate to be had there indeed. :)

Prodigy can do the same thing and his ability are purely telepathic. So can Psylocke. They can both read an opponents next attack and do something about it. Granted, both can do other things, but they don't need anything but telepathy to do what Mr. X does or something very close. I'm not saying it's strictly telepathy (I don't think it really matters) but I don't believe simple telepathy would be insufficient to do what he does.

Unless I'm missing a scan somewhere, you're switching between brainwaves and neurotransmitters when they don't mean the same thing. The scan you said you were following has Mr. X saying he tracks brainwaves. I'm not sure how well he's studied his own powers or if he's qualified to make that judgement, but assuming he has and he is, that's not the same as neurotransmitters. Neurology isn't my field, but it does crossover with what I study and from what I recall, neurotransmitters are the chemicals passed in synapses while brainwaves are the electrical activity. So if Mr. X is right, he's reading the mental energy (and to me, that seems pretty telepathic) put off by someone's brain and his reacts to it (by his reflexes preparing to respond to what he's reading). Gambit's mind is immune to telepathic linking (Xavier's words, he says he can't create a mind link, which again, seems pretty similar to what Mr. X needs to do if he's linking his reflexes to someone else's mind) because of the energy interference created by his powers. It seems to me that Mr. X reads energy. If so, then the kinetic energy that Gambit produces which messes with other telepaths attempts to link with his mind would similarly interfere with Mr. X's attempt to read his brain waves and link with his mind.



                   

               

Hmm... that makes sense. I think you're probably right. I can agree that the likelihood Gambit would be unaffected by Mister X's abilities more probable given your input. Which makes this fight far more interesting in my opinion. 
I may, good sir, have to alter my opinion here!
#44 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot: I never said any of that. I don't really know much about Gambit. This is just going off of what I saw. It depends on weather or not he knows how large the explosion is, with his speed I think he should be able to get far enough away to keep from getting caught in it.
 
I also didn't say it would be easy, but from what I know Gambit isn't as skilled as the people that X has taken out easily or not. I think that if he got in close there isn't really much of a chance that Gambit would beat him.
#45 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

@cascadeking09 said:

@Buckshot: I never said any of that. I don't really know much about Gambit. This is just going off of what I saw. It depends on weather or not he knows how large the explosion is, with his speed I think he should be able to get far enough away to keep from getting caught in it. I also didn't say it would be easy, but from what I know Gambit isn't as skilled as the people that X has taken out easily or not. I think that if he got in close there isn't really much of a chance that Gambit would beat him.

What it seemed like you were saying was that from what you saw there wasn't enough to show that Gambit could quickly create blasts that X couldn't avoid. I was pointing out that in at least two of the sequences shown, he quickly charged objects (one of them being a car) and in one of them, he used the quickly charged objects to create an explosion the size of a large bus. I also explained how that kind of destruction could easily be magnified, making it even harder for X to avoid and requiring minimal effort from Gambit since he can accurately throw cards not just to where someone is, but where they could move to.

He's a good enough fighter to take on DD, Daken, Sabretooth, Wolverine and other plenty of others and come out the other side alive (and often unscathed) but he can't survive close range with X? That's ridiculous. He doesn't have to be as skilled as other people to survive a close range fight. This is not all about skill. He has things beyond skill that will help him. He has greater movement ability than X, he has unpredictability, he has cleverness, he has trickery, he has sleight of hand, he has distracting banter (even before you add in his accent), he has a power that will literally force them apart and give him more space and his primary close range weapon is built to allow him to not only fight from a little further away but to vault and create even more distance. How often do you actually see Gambit trading punches with someone? It's very rare because he knows how to fight to his strengths. That's not to say he will easily be able to dictate the terms of the fight, but he has so many different ways to buy himself the space he needs that I'm sure he can pull off one against his overconfident opponent.

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#46 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot: Not at all, just that from what was explained by Super_SoldierXII maybe he could somehow avoid the cards and an explosion. I'll concede that point, because I have next to no knowledge on what Gambit can do with those cards.
 
I didn't say he can't survive, but you have to remember how skilled Mister X is. He will more than likely come out on top in a h2h fight, he's taken out Wolverine fairly easily on his own and can hang with him just the same in a fair fight. I've only just starting reading most of Mister X's stuff and haven't read a whole lot of Gambit to know what he's capable of so I won't debate whether or not Gambit could win a h2h fight, but for now I think X is more likely to win in a situation like that.
#47 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

@cascadeking09: I don't think Gambit wins a h2h fight with X, but I don't think Gambit would let it stay a h2h fight. You seem to think if it becomes a h2h fight it's over for Gambit, but if doesn't let it remain a h2h fight, he's no longer at a disadvantage.

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#48 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Gambit would let it get to that point, either considering his long range advantage. Why close the distance when you can toss explosives at your opponent all day? 

#49 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:

Gambit's mind is immune to telepathic linking (Xavier's words, he says he can't create a mind link, which again, seems pretty similar to what Mr. X needs to do if he's linking his reflexes to someone else's mind) because of the energy interference created by his powers. It seems to me that Mr. X reads energy. If so, then the kinetic energy that Gambit produces which messes with other telepaths attempts to link with his mind would similarly interfere with Mr. X's attempt to read his brain waves and link with his mind.

This pretty much seals the deal here.
#50 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

I don't think Gambit would let it get to that point, either considering his long range advantage. Why close the distance when you can toss explosives at your opponent all day?

I don't think so either, but I had to cover the possibility.

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