Gambit vs Daredevil and Patriot

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cattlebattle

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#101  Edited By cattlebattle
@Gremlin From Kremlin said:
@cattlebattle said:

@Gremlin From Kremlin said:

@cattlebattle said:
This happened a long time ago, Daredevils prowess has been increased 10 fold in the past couple of years, Gambit doesn't stand a chance  Even the Marvel websites don't credit Gambit as the great fighter some people make him out to be.  Don't get me wrong I likes me Gambit way more than DD, But Gambit is 2nd tier at best. Daredevils up there with Cap, Wolvie and Iron Fist. He's defeated guys like the Absorbing man and The Blob solo, and this was way back before he was increased.   Not to mention he defeats The Hand regularly, Gambit along with Rogue were defeated by them and Fenris in X-men # 6,  I know this considered ABC logic, but I'm just throwing it out there. Another little nugget of info is Daredevil is credited at being only second in physical prowess and agility to Spider-Man (thats saying something) I've never EVER heard anything like this said about Gambit (unless it was a fan on this site)
12 years ago is not such a long time, I'm sure you were still alive back then. Prove that his prowess has been increased ten fold, please. This is not Shadowland Daredevil anymore. Marvel websites have nothing to do with the feats on panel, marvel websites can be edited just by about anyone. You don't get me wrong, I like Daredevil more than Gambit, but it doesn't change the fact that Gambit stalemated Daredevil and beat Sabretooth before. No, Daredevil would lose to Cap, Wolverine and Iron Fist. You think Gambit wouldn't be able to beat absorbing with a charged steel ball? Blob would die from an explosion in his face. If you wanna get into ABC logic here, Gambit has been able to put down Gladiator. LOL, Daredevil isn't even close to Spidey in terms of agility, not to mention the fact that I have a lot of scans that prove Gambit to be more agile than Daredevil.
Daredevil isn't even close to Spidey in agility??? What are you smoking, he sure is,  And people keep stating that Gambit "defeats" Gladiator no such thing happened in Uncanny X-Men 250 or somewhere around that Gambit detonates a full deck that "stuns" Gladiator yes this happened  And Blob wouldn't die from an explosion to the face...with comments like that your just fanboying or trolling
I am not smoking anything, Daredevil is peak human at best. Spidey is superhuman, and when he gets serious, he will school Murdock in terms of agility, like nothing. I have read the comic and I know what happened, thanks for the explanation, though. I have never said that Gambit has BEATEN Gladiator, but he put him down for a short period of time. That pack would kill Daredevil instantaneously. Blob's eyes and nose are not as durable as his gut, are they? Show me a scan stating that Blob's eyes can at least tank bullets, please. One more thing about trolling: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trolling
Daredevils agility is above peak human his sense of balance functions as superhuman,
 
Daredevil would never allow any of Gambits attacks to hit him, He battles Bullseye regularly, Daredevil just has better physical prowess and feats.
 
I have never read anything anywhere that suggests Gambit is near DD in terms of being superior in physicality
 
Unless of course the fight they had in Gambits book, of course he's not going to chump out
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Gremlin From Kremlin

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@cattlebattle said:
@Gremlin From Kremlin said:
@cattlebattle said:

@Gremlin From Kremlin said:

@cattlebattle said:
This happened a long time ago, Daredevils prowess has been increased 10 fold in the past couple of years, Gambit doesn't stand a chance  Even the Marvel websites don't credit Gambit as the great fighter some people make him out to be.  Don't get me wrong I likes me Gambit way more than DD, But Gambit is 2nd tier at best. Daredevils up there with Cap, Wolvie and Iron Fist. He's defeated guys like the Absorbing man and The Blob solo, and this was way back before he was increased.   Not to mention he defeats The Hand regularly, Gambit along with Rogue were defeated by them and Fenris in X-men # 6,  I know this considered ABC logic, but I'm just throwing it out there. Another little nugget of info is Daredevil is credited at being only second in physical prowess and agility to Spider-Man (thats saying something) I've never EVER heard anything like this said about Gambit (unless it was a fan on this site)
12 years ago is not such a long time, I'm sure you were still alive back then. Prove that his prowess has been increased ten fold, please. This is not Shadowland Daredevil anymore. Marvel websites have nothing to do with the feats on panel, marvel websites can be edited just by about anyone. You don't get me wrong, I like Daredevil more than Gambit, but it doesn't change the fact that Gambit stalemated Daredevil and beat Sabretooth before. No, Daredevil would lose to Cap, Wolverine and Iron Fist. You think Gambit wouldn't be able to beat absorbing with a charged steel ball? Blob would die from an explosion in his face. If you wanna get into ABC logic here, Gambit has been able to put down Gladiator. LOL, Daredevil isn't even close to Spidey in terms of agility, not to mention the fact that I have a lot of scans that prove Gambit to be more agile than Daredevil.
Daredevil isn't even close to Spidey in agility??? What are you smoking, he sure is,  And people keep stating that Gambit "defeats" Gladiator no such thing happened in Uncanny X-Men 250 or somewhere around that Gambit detonates a full deck that "stuns" Gladiator yes this happened  And Blob wouldn't die from an explosion to the face...with comments like that your just fanboying or trolling
I am not smoking anything, Daredevil is peak human at best. Spidey is superhuman, and when he gets serious, he will school Murdock in terms of agility, like nothing. I have read the comic and I know what happened, thanks for the explanation, though. I have never said that Gambit has BEATEN Gladiator, but he put him down for a short period of time. That pack would kill Daredevil instantaneously. Blob's eyes and nose are not as durable as his gut, are they? Show me a scan stating that Blob's eyes can at least tank bullets, please. One more thing about trolling: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trolling
Daredevils agility is above peak human his sense of balance functions as superhuman,  Daredevil would never allow any of Gambits attacks to hit him, He battles Bullseye regularly, Daredevil just has better physical prowess and feats.  I have never read anything anywhere that suggests Gambit is near DD in terms of being superior in physicality  Unless of course the fight they had in Gambits book, of course he's not going to chump out
So, are you saying that Daredevil is more agile than guys like Captain America and Batman?
 
Noone would ask Daredevil about his attacks, Murdock is not getting through the explosive cards, no matter how agile he is now.
Bullseye is nothing like Gambit, his projectiles don't explode in a pretty damn wide radius. Also, Gambit would stomp the hell out of Bullseye.
 
Then, you obviously didn't read comics with Gambit, because based on the feats Gambit's agility > Daredevil's agility.
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#103  Edited By cattlebattle

Yes DD is more agile than Cap and Bats, some would even say more so than Spidey (not me) because he doesn't stick to a surface when bouncing of walls or buildngs
 
Bullseye has gone on Grenade throwing sprees with DD which h'es come out of unscathed, Gambit beating Bullseye was never a question but Bullseye is a better marksman.
 
I have read books with bith DD and Gambit and have never really seen Gambit do anything that really outshines DD
 
Unless you can post something Gambit can do that DD can't

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#104  Edited By Westlife
@Vance Astro

That's the beauty of it. Gambit doesn't have to be an outright better fighter. He is good enough and has other things going for him that can make up for it. I might actually think that it is a possibility that Rem may be smarter in combat, because he's so used to fighting with different people, many who outclass him in one way or another, who have an advantage. He's a good tactician and a quick thinker. 

Plus he might charm a lady into helping him(This thread could use a little humor I feel some of us on both sides may be getting a little angry)

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#105  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@Vance Astro:  

You said yourself that Daredevil is a better fighter than Gambit.Do you know what a stalemate is? A stalemate suggests that the fight couldn't continue because neither was skilled enough to gain the upperhand.In other words they are equal.So how can you say that DD is a better fighter but s stalemate is feasible? Doesn't make any sense.So either they didn't stalemate or you're you are contradicting yourself. 

  It was a stalemate because raw skill was not the only factor in that fight. Daredevil has superior skill, but Gambit is more agile and was carrying a weapon with better reach. That, IMO, is why their fight was so closely matched. But, TBH, I don't believe in stalemates. Any fight can be won by somebody if allowed to go on long enough. I believe DD's skill advantage is greater than Gambit's agility and reach advantage, so I am of the opinion that Daredevil would have won if they had chosen to continue their fight.
Being more agile than someone or even having a weapon with better reach isn't enough to allow you to hang with someone who is far better skill wise.There are characters with superhuman agility that don't have single acrobatic maneuver in their arsenal and ones that aren't weapons masters.So skill is the only thing that matters in that fight because just having those abilities mean nothing if you aren't skilled enough to use them.I agree that DD would have one if they had continued but the fact is Daredevil even struggling with him is PIS because, again he's consistently beaten better fighters than Gambit.
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#106  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Westlife said:

@Vance Astro

That's the beauty of it. Gambit doesn't have to be an outright better fighter. He is good enough and has other things going for him that can make up for it. I might actually think that it is a possibility that Rem may be smarter in combat, because he's so used to fighting with different people, many who outclass him in one way or another, who have an advantage. He's a good tactician and a quick thinker. 

Plus he might charm a lady into helping him(This thread could use a little humor I feel some of us on both sides may be getting a little angry)

We've been over this.I am well aware what Gambit can do but YES he does have to be more skilled than Daredevil to beat him even in this scenario.Simply having the ability make things explode doesn't mean anything unless you can execute an attack that will allow him to take Daredevil down.It's not like he's Cyclops and he can project an attack that is virtually undodgeable or he has TP or something.You can say the same about Daredevil...many who outclass him in one way or another, who have an advanatage, and in Dardevil's cases even had prep time and other characters to help have still lost to him.Gambit is not a better tactician than Daredevil nor is he smarter. 
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#107  Edited By Final Arrow

@Vance Astro said:

@(((Prodigy))) said:
@Vance Astro:

You said yourself that Daredevil is a better fighter than Gambit.Do you know what a stalemate is? A stalemate suggests that the fight couldn't continue because neither was skilled enough to gain the upperhand.In other words they are equal.So how can you say that DD is a better fighter but s stalemate is feasible? Doesn't make any sense.So either they didn't stalemate or you're you are contradicting yourself.

It was a stalemate because raw skill was not the only factor in that fight. Daredevil has superior skill, but Gambit is more agile and was carrying a weapon with better reach. That, IMO, is why their fight was so closely matched. But, TBH, I don't believe in stalemates. Any fight can be won by somebody if allowed to go on long enough. I believe DD's skill advantage is greater than Gambit's agility and reach advantage, so I am of the opinion that Daredevil would have won if they had chosen to continue their fight.
Being more agile than someone or even having a weapon with better reach isn't enough to allow you to hang with someone who is far better skill wise.There are characters with superhuman agility that don't have single acrobatic maneuver in their arsenal and ones that aren't weapons masters.So skill is the only thing that matters in that fight because just having those abilities mean nothing if you aren't skilled enough to use them.I agree that DD would have one if they had continued but the fact is Daredevil even struggling with him is PIS because, again he's consistently beaten better fighters than Gambit.

this and he scored with Elektra & Black Widow.. dude likes to fight in and out of the bed....(sorry long day)

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#108  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Final Arrow said:

this and he scored with Elektra & Black Widow.. dude likes to fight in and out of the bed....(sorry long day)

LOL, Arrow.
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#109  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@cattlebattle said:
Yes DD is more agile than Cap and Bats, some would even say more so than Spidey (not me) because he doesn't stick to a surface when bouncing of walls or buildngs Bullseye has gone on Grenade throwing sprees with DD which h'es come out of unscathed, Gambit beating Bullseye was never a question but Bullseye is a better marksman.  I have read books with bith DD and Gambit and have never really seen Gambit do anything that really outshines DD Unless you can post something Gambit can do that DD can't
Daredevil actually isn't more agile than Cap,Bats or even Gambit.I believe they are all on the same level.Daredevil is just simply a better acrobat than all of them.He's not even close to Spider-Man agility wise. Spider-Man actually uses his agility for acrobatic maneuvers which is why he is similar to Daredevil but there are characters that are actually stat-wise more agile than Daredevil they just don't have any dodging feats or really use their agility at all.
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#110  Edited By Westlife
@Vance Astro
No no, see. I say that he might not be more skilled as a raw H2H fighter, but he is skilled and he also has range and apparently has fought DD before so should have some idea of what he's walking into here. I think he does have the skill necessary to execute an attack that would allow him to take guy down. He doesn't simply make things explode. He's extremely accurate and he might be. What is TP?
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#111  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Westlife said:
@Vance Astro: No no, see. I say that he might not be more skilled as a raw H2H fighter, but he is skilled and he also has range and apparently has fought DD before so should have some idea of what he's walking into here. I think he does have the skill necessary to execute an attack that would allow him to take guy down. He doesn't simply make things explode. He's extremely accurate and he might be. What is TP?
Daredevil is more skilled period.DD has ranged attacks to.They may not be as easily to exploit as an exploding card but he does have ranged ability. 
TP is telepathy.
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#112  Edited By Final Arrow

@Westlife:Where what you said is all true, it can also act as a counter point, DD has faced someone who I consider a hell of a lot more accurate then Gambit when it comes to ranged attacks and has faced more then enough people to show his H2H feats are much higer then Gambits, where Gambit has fought DD before so he knows his skills and powers the same could be said for DD in this battle. I think that DD powers give him the edge over gambit to keep the ranged attacks from tagging him or effecting him, to allow him to get up close and give the cajun a swift beat down.

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#113  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
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This thread is hilarious. I would say DD just because I know he would take Patriots shield and kick Patriot the sidelines to be the cheerleader while he try to solo the duel with Patriots shield.
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@Vance Astro said:
@Westlife said:

@Vance Astro

That's the beauty of it. Gambit doesn't have to be an outright better fighter. He is good enough and has other things going for him that can make up for it. I might actually think that it is a possibility that Rem may be smarter in combat, because he's so used to fighting with different people, many who outclass him in one way or another, who have an advantage. He's a good tactician and a quick thinker. 

Plus he might charm a lady into helping him(This thread could use a little humor I feel some of us on both sides may be getting a little angry)

We've been over this.I am well aware what Gambit can do but YES he does have to be more skilled than Daredevil to beat him even in this scenario.Simply having the ability make things explode doesn't mean anything unless you can execute an attack that will allow him to take Daredevil down.It's not like he's Cyclops and he can project an attack that is virtually undodgeable or he has TP or something.You can say the same about Daredevil...many who outclass him in one way or another, who have an advanatage, and in Dardevil's cases even had prep time and other characters to help have still lost to him.Gambit is not a better tactician than Daredevil nor is he smarter. 

1) You are ignoring in your skill PIS stance, that Gambit is a physically superior opponent evidenced in his on panel feats and on paper stats. His agility (and reflexes) is superhuman. Daredevil's is not.  Gambit is a bullet catcher, not just a bullet timer or dodger. DD's radar allows for phenomenal precog avoidance and this, coupled with his hand to hand, puts him at superhuman as well... the extent to which he keeps up with Gambit despite being peak human (we keep assuming the inverse need hold). 

2) Superior physical stats evens the playing field when skill is lacking.  So to be clear, Gambit stalemated DD despite inferior skill due to superior speed levelling the field. This is not PIS. You want this to be PIS. But it is a very poor example. The fact that there are very credible reasons and arguments (i.e. superhuman stats) as to how or why Gambit keeps up with DD make your PIS argument seem like you are really grasping...

3) Gambit is surgical with his charged projectiles. In this, he is a master. Do not confuse martial hand to hand with Gambit's skill in utilizing his mutant ability. In that his top tier ability and mastery is irrefutable. Far too many feats to simply list here. He has Bullseye level feats with projectiles. However ...
 
4) Despite his precision and mastery with his kinetically charged projectiles, he doesn't even need to hit DD. You gloss over the area of effect capabilities once again. Gambit doesn't have to hit DD to hurt him or KO him. He can explode or effect an area the size of which DD couldn't hope to avoid with a concussive blast (morals on) or a blast intended to kill (morals off).  
 
5) After the AMP, Gambit should only need to tag DD once with an adequately charged punch even if it does get down to hand to hand. 
 
Again, you are reducing the amalgamation of Gambit's accumulative abilities to a mere hand to hand showdown. Which this is not. 
 
Again, you are essentially taking away Gambits strengths and playing his weaknesses up to DD's strengths to try and prove why Matt wins. You are downplaying Gambit far too much to make your argument credible.
 
6) Finally, as to DD's superior opponents, not that I find this line of argument particularily telling in general, but because you keep refering to it, Gambit has beaten both Daken and Wolverine ... and this is pertinent as both are esteemed by Marvel to be BETTER hand to hand fighters than DD is and both are just as impressive as any top tier hand to hander DD has 'held his own' against. Doesn't matter if he won with pure hand to hand skills (which he did in his first showing against the Wolverine) or by using his mutant ability.  
 
Really, you say the Daken win is irrelevant and yet you continue to highlight why DD's wins (or draws) against CA or Logan or whomever is relevant. Why the double standard?
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#116  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Super_SoldierXII said:
1) You are ignoring in your skill PIS stance, that Gambit is a physically superior opponent evidenced in his on panel feats and on paper stats. His agility (and reflexes) is superhuman. Daredevil's is not.  Gambit is a bullet catcher, not just a bullet timer or dodger. DD's radar allows for phenomenal precog avoidance and this, coupled with his hand to hand, puts him at superhuman as well... the extent to which he keeps up with Gambit despite being peak human (we keep assuming the inverse need hold). 

2) Superior physical stats evens the playing field when skill is lacking.  So to be clear, Gambit stalemated DD despite inferior skill due to superior speed levelling the field. This is not PIS. You want this to be PIS. But it is a very poor example. The fact that there are very credible reasons and arguments (i.e. superhuman stats) as to how or why Gambit keeps up with DD make your PIS argument seem like you are really grasping...

3) Gambit is surgical with his charged projectiles. In this, he is a master. Do not confuse martial hand to hand with Gambit's skill in utilizing his mutant ability. In that his top tier ability and mastery is irrefutable. Far too many feats to simply list here. He has Bullseye level feats with projectiles. However ...
 
4) Despite his precision and mastery with his kinetically charged projectiles, he doesn't even need to hit DD. You gloss over the area of effect capabilities once again. Gambit doesn't have to hit DD to hurt him or KO him. He can explode or effect an area the size of which DD couldn't hope to avoid with a concussive blast (morals on) or a blast intended to kill (morals off).   5) After the AMP, Gambit should only need to tag DD once with an adequately charged punch even if it does get down to hand to hand.  Again, you are reducing the amalgamation of Gambit's accumulative abilities to a mere hand to hand showdown. Which this is not.  Again, you are essentially taking away Gambits strengths and playing his weaknesses up to DD's strengths to try and prove why Matt wins. You are downplaying Gambit far too much to make your argument credible. 6) Finally, as to DD's superior opponents, not that I find this line of argument particularily telling in general, but because you keep refering to it, Gambit has beaten both Daken and Wolverine ... and this is pertinent as both are esteemed by Marvel to be BETTER hand to hand fighters than DD is and both are just as impressive as any top tier hand to hander DD has 'held his own' against. Doesn't matter if he won with pure hand to hand skills (which he did in his first showing against the Wolverine) or by using his mutant ability.   Really, you say the Daken win is irrelevant and yet you continue to highlight why DD's wins (or draws) against CA or Logan or whomever is relevant. Why the double standard?
1.Gambit isn't physically superior to Daredevil in anyway.You need to post some evidence that proves that.Even on paper Gambit is in no way superior to Daredevil.His agility and reflexes aren't above peak human and neither is Daredevil's.Even if we pretend that Gambit does have superhuman agility,he's fought characters that also have superhuman agility and are master acrobats and they didn't seem to be a problem for him. 
2.Daredevil has fought better fighters than Gambit with more of an advantage than anything physical.(For example,Echo) 
3.Gambit has Bullseye level feats with projectiles? Like what? 
4.I know what an explosion is.You don't have to explain it to me.He has to have the space and time to actually throw a projectile though.Once DD closes the gap he will have no choice but to fight him using his staff. 
5.An adequately charged punch from Iron Fist would have been an instant KO for DD as well and DD has fought him 3 times and was never hit with the said attack. 
6.Gambit has never beaten Daken.Go back and read the comic and actually pay attention to what is happening.The Daken win is irrelevant because it never happened.
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#117  Edited By The_Ghostshell

I actually find it humorous that while some are eager to dismiss Gambit's fight with DD, they're also the same people eager to accept his fight with Bullseye as gospel. Despite the fact that it displayed a ridiculous feat of Bullseye catching a kinetically charged object after it had already hit the wall behind him without exploding.

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#118  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:
I actually find it humorous that while some are eager to dismiss Gambit's fight with DD, they're also the same people eager to accept his fight with Bullseye as gospel. 
I simply posted the scan.It wasn't accompanied with words.
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#120  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro said:
@Gambler said:
I actually find it humorous that while some are eager to dismiss Gambit's fight with DD, they're also the same people eager to accept his fight with Bullseye as gospel. 
I simply posted the scan.It wasn't accompanied with words.
There, yes. But what about back on page two?
 
 @Vance Astro said:
This also happened in Gambit's book where he was proven inferior to a guy (Bullseye) that Daredevil has beaten repeatedly.
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#121  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Ren said:
Gambit has powers (a ranged attack) that outclasses the Patriots or dd's. Bottomline. He wins this.
It's not that black and white.
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#122  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:

@Vance Astro said:

@Gambler said:
I actually find it humorous that while some are eager to dismiss Gambit's fight with DD, they're also the same people eager to accept his fight with Bullseye as gospel. 
I simply posted the scan.It wasn't accompanied with words.
There, yes. But what about back on page two?
 
 

@Vance Astro

said:
This also happened in Gambit's book where he was proven inferior to a guy (Bullseye) that Daredevil has beaten repeatedly.
That statement was to suggest the writing in the book was terrible not that Bullseye's fight with Gambit was feasible.
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#123  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro: Yes, exactly. You were drawing the conclusion that because DD was stalemated by Gambit that the writing in the book was terrible. But the same writing team did the Bullseye fight, a fight you've referenced twice now. If Gambit stalemating DD is fuggazy, and you've already stated that DD is better the Bullseye, then how can that fight be anymore credible then the first?
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#124  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:

 then how can that fight be anymore credible then the first?

That's what I want to know.Everyone keeps saying that on panel evidence is better than "opinions" so nobody is going to accept me saying that the fight with DD is PIS but how can someone accept him stalemating DD but getting trashed by Bullseye? People are saying he stalemated DD because he has better agility (which is bullsh#t) but Bullseye is not only a worse fighter than Daredevil but he's not even close acrobatically.So how can some accept one and not the other? The writing is bad in both instances.Either Bullseye is better than Gambit and the DD feat is bogus or neither is credible.
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#125  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro said:
@Gambler said:

 then how can that fight be anymore credible then the first?

That's what I want to know.Everyone keeps saying that on panel evidence is better than "opinions" so nobody is going to accept me saying that the fight with DD is PIS but how can someone accept him stalemating DD but getting trashed by Bullseye? People are saying he stalemated DD because he has better agility (which is bullsh#t) but Bullseye is not only a worse fighter than Daredevil but he's not even close acrobatically.So how can some accept one and not the other? The writing is bad in both instances.Either Bullseye is better than Gambit and the DD feat is bogus or neither is credible.
Actually I believe theres a reasonable explanation. DD vs Gambit is a fight of heroes, neither one is trying to inflict maximum damage (if any real damage at all). So basically you have two guys going at it without actually trying to do anything, hence a stalemate. Where as Bullseye is a killer and isnt going to hold back anything. Add to the fact that I believe Gambit had been on the run and exhausted from being hunted by numerous assassins and there you have the Bullseye fight. Instead of looking at it in terms of who's more skilled, I'd look at it in terms of how could/would the writers try to reasonably pass off both fights legitimately. I wouldn't use either one to anchor my position on who would win and avoid the controversy all together. I think your other points about DD being able to do more damage without having to hold back while Gambit's main powers would be diminished (as you point out he isn't going to kill or seriously injure DD) are far more convincing.
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#126  Edited By madrid_san

This has gone on too long. 
 
How can DD hope to beat Gambit? Gambit is a sly fellow. When he beat Cable, he used a trick card that Cable wasn't expecting that blew up below him. Anything Gambit touches is his weapon. And like others said, he doesn't need to hit DD to do massive damage. 
  
DD has no super human durability feats. A Cap punch knocked him out cold. A exploding card, or the whole deck like he did to Gladiator, anchors, even dirt, anything you can think of would take out DD.  
 
The sound of these objects would also disorientate him long enough for Gambit to take him out. Lets not forget Gambit can level buildings and house simply by kinetically charging his staff and striking the ground. 
 
Gambit also can charge his fist to give his punches explosive power as he said he threatened to blow off Mrs Sinister's head. 
 
Daredevil dies horribly.

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#127  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:
 I wouldn't use either one to anchor my position on who would win and avoid the controversy all together. 
I wouldn't either. I didn't really push it.
 
@Gambler said:
Actually I believe theres a reasonable explanation. DD vs Gambit is a fight of heroes, neither one is trying to inflict maximum damage (if any real damage at all). So basically you have two guys going at it without actually trying to do anything, hence a stalemate. 
Well you can tell in the dialogue that they aren't really going all out but I still feel like the fight went that way because it was Gambit's book and the writer didn't want him to lose to Daredevil because anyone who knows anything about DD knows that DD doesn't have to hurt someone to put them down.
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#128  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro said:
Well you can tell in the dialogue that they aren't really going all out but I still feel like the fight went that way because it was Gambit's book and the writer didn't want him to lose to Daredevil because anyone who knows anything about DD knows that DD doesn't have to hurt someone to put them down.
I dont really see how the same writer would be unwilling to have Gambit lose against DD, but perfectly fine with having him not only lose to Bullseye, but to have him running scared from him. But I agree that obviously being his own series helps, the same way it helps any superhero with their own title. If we start discounting feats based purely on who's book it happened in we wouldn't have much to go off from.
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#129  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@madrid_san said:
This has gone on too long.  How can DD hope to beat Gambit? Gambit is a sly fellow. When he beat Cable, he used a trick card that Cable wasn't expecting that blew up below him. 
Daredevil isn't Cable.Cable isn't a smart a fighter as DD and he doesn't have radar sense. 
 
@madrid_san said:
  DD has no super human durability feats.
Actually he does.He's just simply not superhuman. 
 
@madrid_san said:
 A exploding card, or the whole deck like he did to Gladiator, anchors, even dirt, anything you can think of would take out DD.   
Morals are on. 
 
@madrid_san said:
   The sound of these objects would also disorientate him long enough 
No it  wouldn't.Daredevil's weakness to loud sounds isn't as easy to exploit as people think. 
 
@madrid_san said:
  Gambit also can charge his fist to give his punches explosive power 
Gambit wouldn't be the only character DD fought that is like that....  
 
@madrid_san said:
  Daredevil dies horribly.
Again..Morals are on.
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#130  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:
 If we start discounting feats based purely on who's book it happened in we wouldn't have much to go off from.
Right, but I wasn't discrediting the line of comics just Nicieza's writing.
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#131  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro said:
@Gambler said:
 If we start discounting feats based purely on who's book it happened in we wouldn't have much to go off from.
Right, but I wasn't discrediting the line of comics just Nicieza's writing.
Oh, cause when you said it happened because it was Gambit's book I assumed thats what you were saying. If its simply dismissing the writer then wouldnt you have to dismiss every story he wrote within the series? I really dont see Gambit stalemating DD as some incredible feat that Gambit couldnt do regardless of how much either character was putting into it.
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#132  Edited By madrid_san
@Vance Astro said:
@madrid_san said:
This has gone on too long.  How can DD hope to beat Gambit? Gambit is a sly fellow. When he beat Cable, he used a trick card that Cable wasn't expecting that blew up below him. 
Daredevil isn't Cable.Cable isn't a smart a fighter as DD and he doesn't have radar sense. 
 
@madrid_san said:
  DD has no super human durability feats.
Actually he does.He's just simply not superhuman. 
 
@madrid_san said:
 A exploding card, or the whole deck like he did to Gladiator, anchors, even dirt, anything you can think of would take out DD.   
Morals are on. 
 
@madrid_san said:
   The sound of these objects would also disorientate him long enough 
No it  wouldn't.Daredevil's weakness to loud sounds isn't as easy to exploit as people think. 
 
@madrid_san said:
  Gambit also can charge his fist to give his punches explosive power 
Gambit wouldn't be the only character DD fought that is like that....  
 
@madrid_san said:
  Daredevil dies horribly.
Again..Morals are on.
You are saying DD is smarter than Cable? Don't make me laugh. Cable is a genius and grew up in a apocalyptic battlefield. So that doesn't cut it.
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#133  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@madrid_san said:
You are saying DD is smarter than Cable? Don't make me laugh. Cable is a genius and grew up in a apocalyptic battlefield. So that doesn't cut it.
Daredevil is a smarter fighter than Cable.I didn't say overall.Reed Richards is smarter than DD as well but was easily outsmarted by him in combat.
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#134  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:
Oh, cause when you said it happened because it was Gambit's book I assumed thats what you were saying. If its simply dismissing the writer then wouldnt you have to dismiss every story he wrote within the series? 
Yea but I don't know if he wrote it that way because it's Gambit's book and he's trying to make him look good.I just know that fight was written poorly and the fact that it's not the only one shows a trend. 
 
@Gambler said:
 I really dont see Gambit stalemating DD as some incredible feat that Gambit couldnt do regardless of how much either character was putting into it.
I do.Daredevil just holding back doesn't but Gambit one a level where he could stalemate him.DD has fought better while holding back.
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#135  Edited By madrid_san

Cable grew up in the battlefield. I am sure he has more to teach DD than he teach Cable. 
  
Anyway, Gambit wins.

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#136  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@madrid_san said:
Cable grew up in the battlefield. I am sure he has more to teach DD than he teach Cable.   Anyway, Gambit wins.
Growing up in the battlefield doesn't change anything.Thor grew up in the battlefield as well and DD is still a better and smarter fight than him.Anyway Gambit DOESN'T win.Cable can't teach DD anything.
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#137  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro said:
Yea but I don't know if he wrote it that way because it's Gambit's book and he's trying to make him look good.I just know that fight was written poorly and the fact that it's not the only one shows a trend. 
 
I thought the fight given the outside factors was decently portrayed. But we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
@Vance Astro said:
I do.Daredevil just holding back doesn't but Gambit one a level where he could stalemate him.DD has fought better while holding back.
 Gambit's stalemated faster, stronger opponents as well if we're using that logic. A stalemate is no great accomplishment especially when  neither character is actually trying to seriously defeat the other. Is Gambit fast enough to keep up with DD? Yes. Is he acrobatic enough to keep up with DD? Yes. Is he skilled enough to keep from losing for a short period of time? Yes. So why would this particular stalemate be beyond the realm of plausible execution?
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#138  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Gambler said:
 Gambit's stalemated faster, stronger opponents as well if we're using that logic. 
Yea, but were they as skilled as Daredevil? And did he do it without the use of his powers? 
 
@Gambler said:
A stalemate is no great accomplishment especially when  neither character is actually trying to seriously defeat the other. Is Gambit fast enough to keep up with DD? Yes. Is he acrobatic enough to keep up with DD? Yes. Is he skilled enough to keep from losing for a short period of time? Yes. So why would this particular stalemate be beyond the realm of plausible execution?
Being fast and agile enough to keep up with Daredevil isn't the biggest factor in a fight with Daredevil.
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#139  Edited By The_Ghostshell
@Vance Astro said:
Yea, but were they as skilled as Daredevil? And did he do it without the use of his powers? 
 
I believe he went powerless when he downed Albert, and I wouldn't say Blade is as skilled (or that their fight was conclusive) but he went powerless against him as well. There are several hand to hand fighters that Gambit has held his own against without using his kinetic powers. Were as skilled as DD? Doubtful. But since DD was holding back its a moot point to begin with. You can say he's defeated better while holding back, but there's no way to accurately gauge just how much he was holding back and there for how much skill he was actually utilizing.
 
@Vance Astro said:
@Gambler said:
 Gambit's stalemated faster, stronger opponents as well if we're using that logic. 
Yea, but were they as skilled as Daredevil? And did he do it without the use of his powers? 
 
Being fast and agile enough to keep up with Daredevil isn't the biggest factor in a fight with Daredevil.
In this particular fight it was. The entire fight was portrayed as an acrobatic display across the rooftops. Not a martial arts hand to hand stationary fight.
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@Vance Astro said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
1) You are ignoring in your skill PIS stance, that Gambit is a physically superior opponent evidenced in his on panel feats and on paper stats. His agility (and reflexes) is superhuman. Daredevil's is not.  Gambit is a bullet catcher, not just a bullet timer or dodger. DD's radar allows for phenomenal precog avoidance and this, coupled with his hand to hand, puts him at superhuman as well... the extent to which he keeps up with Gambit despite being peak human (we keep assuming the inverse need hold). 

2) Superior physical stats evens the playing field when skill is lacking.  So to be clear, Gambit stalemated DD despite inferior skill due to superior speed levelling the field. This is not PIS. You want this to be PIS. But it is a very poor example. The fact that there are very credible reasons and arguments (i.e. superhuman stats) as to how or why Gambit keeps up with DD make your PIS argument seem like you are really grasping...

3) Gambit is surgical with his charged projectiles. In this, he is a master. Do not confuse martial hand to hand with Gambit's skill in utilizing his mutant ability. In that his top tier ability and mastery is irrefutable. Far too many feats to simply list here. He has Bullseye level feats with projectiles. However ...
 
4) Despite his precision and mastery with his kinetically charged projectiles, he doesn't even need to hit DD. You gloss over the area of effect capabilities once again. Gambit doesn't have to hit DD to hurt him or KO him. He can explode or effect an area the size of which DD couldn't hope to avoid with a concussive blast (morals on) or a blast intended to kill (morals off).   5) After the AMP, Gambit should only need to tag DD once with an adequately charged punch even if it does get down to hand to hand.  Again, you are reducing the amalgamation of Gambit's accumulative abilities to a mere hand to hand showdown. Which this is not.  Again, you are essentially taking away Gambits strengths and playing his weaknesses up to DD's strengths to try and prove why Matt wins. You are downplaying Gambit far too much to make your argument credible. 6) Finally, as to DD's superior opponents, not that I find this line of argument particularily telling in general, but because you keep refering to it, Gambit has beaten both Daken and Wolverine ... and this is pertinent as both are esteemed by Marvel to be BETTER hand to hand fighters than DD is and both are just as impressive as any top tier hand to hander DD has 'held his own' against. Doesn't matter if he won with pure hand to hand skills (which he did in his first showing against the Wolverine) or by using his mutant ability.   Really, you say the Daken win is irrelevant and yet you continue to highlight why DD's wins (or draws) against CA or Logan or whomever is relevant. Why the double standard?
1.Gambit isn't physically superior to Daredevil in anyway.You need to post some evidence that proves that.Even on paper Gambit is in no way superior to Daredevil.His agility and reflexes aren't above peak human and neither is Daredevil's.Even if we pretend that Gambit does have superhuman agility,he's fought characters that also have superhuman agility and are master acrobats and they didn't seem to be a problem for him. 2.Daredevil has fought better fighters than Gambit with more of an advantage than anything physical.(For example,Echo) 3.Gambit has Bullseye level feats with projectiles? Like what? 4.I know what an explosion is.You don't have to explain it to me.He has to have the space and time to actually throw a projectile though.Once DD closes the gap he will have no choice but to fight him using his staff. 5.An adequately charged punch from Iron Fist would have been an instant KO for DD as well and DD has fought him 3 times and was never hit with the said attack. 6.Gambit has never beaten Daken.Go back and read the comic and actually pay attention to what is happening.The Daken win is irrelevant because it never happened.

1. OK... so, Gambit lacks skills and is, by your account, peak human in the stats department and yet regularily dodges bullets, and more than this, even catches them?  
Without DD level skill, without radar and being merely peak human (ONLY by your attestation); tell me, how does one with average to good fighting skills and no superhuman agility or reflexes manage dodging automatic gunfire? Gambit's regular, consistent feats show that you are dead wrong.  Do I really have to post feats (there are dozens) of him doing this to you??
If I have to post feats to prove this to a guy with nearly 80,000 posts to his name here on the Vine, then you are either in denial or trolling or desperate to win for your favorite hero in red in making such an absurd proclamation.  
Gambit's thoughts race like quicksilver fueling his reflexes and agility to superhuman proportions and making him highly resistant to TP. Arguing this is like trying to convince us Superman can't fly. You don't want to believe this, then fine. Those Viners who are aware of a character's feats and abilities can invariably judge for themselves.  
2. And Wolverine has fought the Hulk. Thor has fought Zeus. Punisher has fought Spiderman. etc. etc. etc. 
3. You are not aware, and so when I am off work, I'll post some feats for you if you really are not aware of the 'like what' here ... (are you just playing at innocent here or are you being serious?) 
4. There are a lot of 'ifs' there in your sentence. Gambit's charges are instantaneous and one thing Gambit does have is speed... irregardless of your very strange opinion to the contrary. 
5. Lucky for DD. 
6. Regardless of the pheremones and the little kissie kissie act, Gambit put Daken in his place (you feel Daken let him, then fine).
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#141  Edited By spidey 15
@progenitor said:
@Vance Astro

 
 
  IIRC, DD lost to Cap once in an old exhibition public match in a ring.
In the first scan where cap beats DD, DD has stated that he was weakened( he was off his game ) and he was still able to give to Steve a run for his money. He was dodging his hits, he was consistently kicking him and he has even throw cap's shield away. And DD was still barely trying to fight against a Steve Rogers who not only was very serious in that fight, he was also physically superior to Matt. That only shows that DD is on a similar skill level with Cap. 
Also in the fight with crossbones, DD not only was weakened before cap's fight, he still had to fight Cross after getting a beating from cap. 
:)
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#142  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Super_SoldierXII said:
1. OK... so, Gambit lacks skills and is, by your account, peak human in the stats department and yet regularily dodges bullets, and more than this, even catches them?  Without DD level skill, without radar and being merely peak human (ONLY by your attestation); tell me, how does one with average to good fighting skills and no superhuman agility or reflexes manage dodging automatic gunfire? Gambit's regular, consistent feats show that you are dead wrong.  Do I really have to post feats (there are dozens) of him doing this to you?? If I have to post feats to prove this to a guy with nearly 80,000 posts to his name here on the Vine, then you are either in denial or trolling or desperate to win for your favorite hero in red in making such an absurd proclamation.  Gambit's thoughts race like quicksilver fueling his reflexes and agility to superhuman proportions and making him highly resistant to TP. Arguing this is like trying to convince us Superman can't fly. You don't want to believe this, then fine. Those Viners who are aware of a character's feats and abilities can invariably judge for themselves.  2. And Wolverine has fought the Hulk. Thor has fought Zeus. Punisher has fought Spiderman. etc. etc. etc. 3. You are not aware, and so when I am off work, I'll post some feats for you if you really are not aware of the 'like what' here ... (are you just playing at innocent here or are you being serious?) 4. There are a lot of 'ifs' there in your sentence. Gambit's charges are instantaneous and one thing Gambit does have is speed... irregardless of your very strange opinion to the contrary. 5. Lucky for DD. 6. Regardless of the pheremones and the little kissie kissie act, Gambit put Daken in his place (you feel Daken let him, then fine).
1.Dodging bullets is something that every street leveler regularly does.You don't need to be superhuman to do that.Daredevil has his own comic that's over 500 issues and has been dodging and blocking bullets since issue #1.Gambit catches bullets.Got a scan? Catching bullets doesn't really have nothing to with speed.Quicksilver can't even catch bullets and he's way faster than Gambit.
 
2.Those things have nothing to do with what I am saying.If you didn't get the point then read it again. 
 
3.Why would I ask if I was actually aware? I'm not a Gambit expert.Either post the feats or don't.I'm not pretending not to know.Bullseye is the best marksman in the Marvel Universe so I doubt Gambit has done anything to match him. 
 
4.Battle forums are hypothetical so of course their are alot of ifs in my post.You constantly over-estimate Gambit's speed.Post some proof for this amazing speed.
 
5.Lucky for Gambit. 
 
6.I don't FEEL Daken let him.He did.You read the comic so you know just as I do that wasn't a real fight.
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@Vance Astro said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
1. OK... so, Gambit lacks skills and is, by your account, peak human in the stats department and yet regularily dodges bullets, and more than this, even catches them?  Without DD level skill, without radar and being merely peak human (ONLY by your attestation); tell me, how does one with average to good fighting skills and no superhuman agility or reflexes manage dodging automatic gunfire? Gambit's regular, consistent feats show that you are dead wrong.  Do I really have to post feats (there are dozens) of him doing this to you?? If I have to post feats to prove this to a guy with nearly 80,000 posts to his name here on the Vine, then you are either in denial or trolling or desperate to win for your favorite hero in red in making such an absurd proclamation.  Gambit's thoughts race like quicksilver fueling his reflexes and agility to superhuman proportions and making him highly resistant to TP. Arguing this is like trying to convince us Superman can't fly. You don't want to believe this, then fine. Those Viners who are aware of a character's feats and abilities can invariably judge for themselves.  2. And Wolverine has fought the Hulk. Thor has fought Zeus. Punisher has fought Spiderman. etc. etc. etc. 3. You are not aware, and so when I am off work, I'll post some feats for you if you really are not aware of the 'like what' here ... (are you just playing at innocent here or are you being serious?) 4. There are a lot of 'ifs' there in your sentence. Gambit's charges are instantaneous and one thing Gambit does have is speed... irregardless of your very strange opinion to the contrary. 5. Lucky for DD. 6. Regardless of the pheremones and the little kissie kissie act, Gambit put Daken in his place (you feel Daken let him, then fine).
1.Dodging bullets is something that every street leveler regularly does.You don't need to be superhuman to do that.Daredevil has his own comic that's over 500 issues and has been dodging and blocking bullets since issue #1.Gambit catches bullets.Got a scan? Catching bullets doesn't really have nothing to with speed.Quicksilver can't even catch bullets and he's way faster than Gambit. 2.Those things have nothing to do with what I am saying.If you didn't get the point then read it again.  3.Why would I ask if I was actually aware? I'm not a Gambit expert.Either post the feats or don't.I'm not pretending not to know.Bullseye is the best marksman in the Marvel Universe so I doubt Gambit has done anything to match him.  4.Battle forums are hypothetical so of course their are alot of ifs in my post.You constantly over-estimate Gambit's speed.Post some proof for this amazing speed. 5.Lucky for Gambit.  6.I don't FEEL Daken let him.He did.You read the comic so you know just as I do that wasn't a real fight.

 
Alright. A few credible victories (where he clearly had the upperhand);  

1) Sabretooth;  

 
 
2) Blade; 
  
 
 
3) Scalphunter (no pics but great demonstration of dodging, reflexes and acrobatics)  
 
4) I've got him schooling Storm in pure hand to hand. She went without her powers for a while and honed hand to hand skills enough to own Calisto (level 5 hand to hander) and become leader of the Morlocks. She even staved off Sabretooth hand to hand (contained him) So this is not as weak a feat as one might believe at first; 
  
 
 
I've got more but don't want to flood too much. 
 
Here's one (of many) demonstrating precision; 
 
 
 
Throws multiples, tags the target and slips a card in to cut a bomb's trip wire. That's Bullseye material (and a mid level feat... I have better but need to dig them out).
 
  There's him catching a grenade launched from a gun then throwing it back. That's a superhuman feat right there as well. (There's another but I'll have to work harder to dig it out)
 
For fun,here's a demonstration of skill and finesse from Gambit #1 that look just about as good as anything I've seen DD do. No, scratch that, better. I'll let the pics do the talking; 
 














 
Now tell me how a peak human pulls that off? But I have many more feats as well. Fact is, Gambit's internal energy grants him superhuman agility.  

Only other response I'll give here is to your comment "every street leveler can dodge bullets". First, let's differentiate between those who dodge because they're fast enough to (Spiderman and, yes, Gambit), those that are bullet timers because they're skilled enough to (Iron Fist), those that use a combination of skill and superhuman ability (i.e. Wolverine and Captain America) and those that merely get out of the way on time or wear body armor/kevlar (Punisher).  
 
Point is, every street leveler only dodges bullets with either; 
 
1) Enhancements coupled with skill  (i.e Captain America & Deathstroke) . 
2) Skill (by skill I mean level 6 or 7) coupled with stats enhanced through mutation (i.e. Wolverine) 
3) Skill coupled with radar (i.e. Daredevil) 
4) Superpowers coupled with Spidersense (Spiderman) 
5) Skill coupled with Chi (Iron Fist) 
6) Principally enhancements fueld by mutation (Gambit, Nighcrawler, Beast ...) 
7) Principally skill evidencing extremely high end talent (Batman: in this case, they are more bullet timers than dodgers).
I'm sure I'm missing a few but you get the point... Gambit minus the requisite skill and minus the requisite agility/reflexes should not be able to pull off what he does.
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Billdevil

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#144  Edited By Billdevil

Ok guys this seems to be charged so I’ll try not to ad much fuel to it. Gambit is able to use his powers to charge himself up (so to speak) so he does have very good acrobatic prowess. If this goes beyond DD’s abilities, or pumps him up high enough to match him, the jury is still out. A character staying ahead of strafing gunfire isn’t much of a feat, but catching or blocking a bullet is. If they have both have done this (I know DD has time and again) it’s a non factor in the fight. DD has more formal fighting knowledge IMP and his senses push him up with the best fighters in the world (again IMP). The question is can Gambit tag him with a card with assurance he will not kill him or can DD stay ahead of him long enough to throw or hit him with his club. ???

 

The better question is why can’t Patriot be in this fight?

 

Here is the breakdown as I see it.

 

Strength: Who cares but DD

Fighting: DD (but Gambit is good)

Dogging: =

Acrobatics: =

Agility: =

Ranged prowess: Gambit (but DD is very accurate with his clubs)

Morals being on: Advantage,   DD

Patriot being in the fight: Advantage, DD 

 
Respect to both but DD wins. 
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vance_astro

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#145  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Super_SoldierXII 
 
As far as victories Gambit only won one of those fights and that's the one with Sabretooth a character who is frequently feral and shows no sign of skill (although we know he's skilled).I don't count his fight with Storm because they are only sparring.He helped train Storm so obviously he's better than her and she's mediocre anyway.She's further away skillwise from DD than Gambit is.
 
This feat that is supposed to show his "precision" is mediocre.That's not Bullseye level. 
This is Bullseye level..... 
 

  @Super_SoldierXII said:

 Now tell me how a peak human pulls that off? But I have many more feats as well. Fact is, Gambit's internal energy grants him superhuman agility.

You're just taking random feats and saying they are superhuman you didn't post anything that someone would need to be superhuman to do.There is no actual evidence that Gambit's agility is superhuman.Where does it say external energy makes Gambit's agility superhuman? 
 
@Super_SoldierXII said:

 1) Enhancements coupled with skill  (i.e Captain America & Deathstroke) .     

 2) Skill (by skill I mean level 6 or 7) coupled with stats enhanced through mutation (i.e. Wolverine)   

 3) Skill coupled with radar (i.e. Daredevil)   

 4) Superpowers coupled with Spidersense (Spiderman)  

  5) Skill coupled with Chi (Iron Fist)   

 6) Principally enhancements fueld by mutation (Gambit, Nighcrawler, Beast ...)   

 7) Principally skill evidencing extremely high end talent (Batman: in this case, they are more bullet timers than dodgers).I'm sure I'm missing a few but you get the point... Gambit minus the requisite skill and minus the requisite agility/reflexes should not be able to pull off what he does.

So what you're telling me is that speed and reflexes has nothing to do with what any of these characters have done? And Gambit can dodge bullets but they can't? So you're telling me when I look at the scan below it's not a scan of Daredevil dodging point blank range gunshots?
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
If you look at the scans you posted above where Gambit is "dodging bullets" alot of those shots are simply missing he's not dodging them, something like this.... 
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@Vance Astro
 
 

So what you're telling me is that speed and reflexes has nothing to do with what any of these characters have done? And Gambit can dodge bullets but they can't? So you're telling me when I look at the scan below it's not a scan of Daredevil dodging point blank range gunshots?

No Caption Provided





 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Superpowers, Enhancements and enhancements through mutation all refer to agility, reflexes, speed and strength (not necessarily all of the above) being above human. Sorry, thought that would have been obvious. DD has his radar and hand to hand skills to help him dodge projectiles travelling at 1200 mph. These make him superhuman in that respect. 
Gambit is also a bullet dodger. Why don't you go ahead and tell me how Gambit dodges bullets then? If he's peak human, and sub par hand to hand... go ahead, illuminate the masses. How's he do it?  
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vance_astro

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#147  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Super_SoldierXII said:
             Superpowers, Enhancements and enhancements through mutation all refer to agility, reflexes, speed and strength (not necessarily all of the above) being above human. Sorry, thought that would have been obvious. DD has his radar and hand to hand skills to help him dodge projectiles travelling at 1200 mph. These make him superhuman in that respect. Gambit is also a bullet dodger. Why don't you go ahead and tell me how Gambit dodges bullets then? If he's peak human, and sub par hand to hand... go ahead, illuminate the masses. How's he do it?  
It is obvious.I'm just making sure that's what you're actually saying before I tell you it's wrong.Gambit's dodging of bullets has just as much to do with his skill as it does for any other street leveler.If you're saying that they CAN'T dodge bullets than neither can he.
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madrid_san

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#148  Edited By madrid_san
@Vance Astro said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
             Superpowers, Enhancements and enhancements through mutation all refer to agility, reflexes, speed and strength (not necessarily all of the above) being above human. Sorry, thought that would have been obvious. DD has his radar and hand to hand skills to help him dodge projectiles travelling at 1200 mph. These make him superhuman in that respect. Gambit is also a bullet dodger. Why don't you go ahead and tell me how Gambit dodges bullets then? If he's peak human, and sub par hand to hand... go ahead, illuminate the masses. How's he do it?  
It is obvious.I'm just making sure that's what you're actually saying before I tell you it's wrong.Gambit's dodging of bullets has just as much to do with his skill as it does for any other street leveler.If you're saying that they CAN'T dodge bullets than neither can he.
Wow you are still here. Give it up. Really, DD is a great character, really. But no one in the right mind would think that DD has anything in his arsenal to knock down Gladiator. Gambit did. I know that is ABC logic. but just look who Gambit has to contend with vs what DD has to. 
 
Gambit knows what DD is capable of. DD knows what Gambit is too but with so many weapons at Gambit's disposal, he can keep DD guessing. Gambit's stick fighting and bio kinetic powers or way more than DD can handle.Gambit, with his bullet catching reflexes charges DD's club. DD goes down soon after.
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Super_SoldierXII

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@Vance Astro said:


                    @Super_SoldierXII said:
             Superpowers, Enhancements and enhancements through mutation all refer to agility, reflexes, speed and strength (not necessarily all of the above) being above human. Sorry, thought that would have been obvious. DD has his radar and hand to hand skills to help him dodge projectiles travelling at 1200 mph. These make him superhuman in that respect. Gambit is also a bullet dodger. Why don't you go ahead and tell me how Gambit dodges bullets then? If he's peak human, and sub par hand to hand... go ahead, illuminate the masses. How's he do it?  

                   

               
It is obvious.I'm just making sure that's what you're actually saying before I tell you it's wrong.Gambit's dodging of bullets has just as much to do with his skill as it does for any other street leveler.If you're saying that they CAN'T dodge bullets than neither can he.

                   

               

Ridiculous. Which street leveller are you refering? And just to be clear, you're saying Gambit dodges bullets the way and to the degree and consistency he does solely on his skills? And this is just like any other street leveller does? Like whom praytell? Who else is a bonafide bullet dodger based solely on level 4 combat skills?
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vance_astro

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#150  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Super_SoldierXII said:               

Ridiculous. Which street leveller are you refering? And just to be clear, you're saying Gambit dodges bullets the way and to the degree and consistency he does solely on his skills? And this is just like any other street leveller does? Like whom praytell? Who else is a bonafide bullet dodger based solely on level 4 combat skills?

You're giving reasons as to why all of these characters can dodge bullets like say for instance Daredevil having radar sense  and + his skills.But what about someone like Moon Knight who has dodged gunfire from the Punisher? He doesn't have any abilities that alert him to when something is coming and he doesn't have enhanced agility nor is he even that great of an acrobat.Same thing with a character like Wildcat.He doesn't have any enhanced physical stats, he's not superhuman in anyway and he doesn't have any ability that alerts him to what's about to happen.Yet he dodged gunfire from Hawkman.I'm not saying that Gambit's dodging of bullets is based solely on skill.I'm saying it's just as much a part of it as it is for any other street level character.Daredevil had radar sense but he is someone who hast batted bullets out of the air when the shooters was nearly point blank range.You can't tell me speed\reflexes has nothing to do with it.