#1 Posted by WeaponX510 (1020 posts) - - Show Bio

No Prep!
Classic versions
Fight Starts out in downtown new Orleans(no population)
They are 100 feet apart when the fight starts  
Fight to the Death
Who wins and How?

#2 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit His Physical Superiority would be too much for Batman :-(

#3 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman. 
He's got the tools. I think his strength and agility should be on par if not better than Gambits. His combat skill is superior than Gambits. 
Sure Gambits got the bombs, but Batman has a few of those too as well.  
Batman will find a few ways to deceive and avoid Gambit's bombs.

#4 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman.

#5 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
" Gambit His Physical Superiority would be too much for Batman :-( "
i don't think thats his way of victory here, as far as i'm concerned bats is an enhanced human and i think gambit is pretty much the same, if there is a difference there wouldn't be that much i would suspect, bats is a better h2h fighter than gambit and he also has his utility belt as well but i ain't sure since gambit has the advantage with the explosives that he can use by the setting of the battle in downtown new orleans
#6 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

No Batman is just Human Peak and as much as i hate to say it Gambit is above that his utility belt is a bit of an issue for him as well considering Gambit can blow it up

#7 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio

I@Sherlock: My understanding is that Gambit is stronger than the average human. He's not peak human.  I can understand he's stronger than he should be for a guy of his size and conditioning, but he's not peak human. I doubt he's as strong as Captain America, and Batman is written to be around Captain America's strength levels.

#8 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian:  
batman isn't anywhere near cap amereica in terms of strength level, he is a peak human, cap is above this
#9 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit has a few choices here that seem to be over looked. This is his home turf. He would know these streets and alleys and could potentially lead Batman into an area of his choosing. Because of his mutant ability I would give Gambit the edge in agility and perhaps speed. Overall skill and most likely strength too would go to Batman.

#10 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" @Tian:  batman isn't anywhere near cap amereica in terms of strength level, he is a peak human, cap is above this "
I wouldn't say bat's isn't anywhere near...
#11 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall: It's described that Batman is at peak human. But his feats of strength suggest he is beyond peak, he is basically at a Metahuman level.
#12 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper:   
how so? cap is well above a tonner, bats isn't, am i missing something here?
#13 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" @vuviper:   how so? cap is well above a tonner, bats isn't, am i missing something here? "
Bats has a lot of similar strength feats. Which could easily place him close, or on the same level.
#14 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall:  
Batman is a Tonner. 
 
Just to let you know. Captain America was originally written to be at peak human levels. As he has gotten stronger over the years. So has Batman.  
Marvel Directory has Captain America max bench pressing 800lbs.  
I'll concede that maybe Captain America may have at times performed feats that seem more impressive. But ideally under normal circumstances they're both suppose to be around the same strength levels. 
#15 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@Chosen One:  
altho it maybe in the comics, there is no evidence to prove that bat is capable of same feats as cap in terms of strength, there are many over the top feats that bats may have that i don't take too seriously, the serum does indeed puts cap beyond bats in strength
#16 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:
"Marvel Directory has Captain America max bench pressing 800lbs."
In a scan he benches (working out with) 1,100 pounds.
#17 Posted by Red_Blade (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

bats

#18 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say Cap is 1 ton max. I'd say Batman is almost exactly the same.
 
Batman has bent steel bars and broke chains with his bare hands.

#19 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian:  
since when did bats become a tonner? what are some of his strength feats only (not utilizing outside factors etc etc) that's similar to cap?
#20 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

Yo cant be above peak human levals without powers is my understanding

#21 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" @Chosen One:  altho it maybe in the comics, there is no evidence to prove that bat is capable of same feats as cap in terms of strength, there are many over the top feats that bats may have that i don't take too seriously, the serum does indeed puts cap beyond bats in strength "
How do you not accept bat's feats but accept CA? They are both describe as being the absolute best shape possible, Cap due to his serum and Batman from training

 "Body to the peak of human perfection"
#22 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper:  
so any human that is at the peak level due to training becomes a tonner? 
i'm accepting the fact that cap has been greatly enhanced due to the serum as well as training, not just by training only, it's not like cap doesn't train either right
#23 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" @Tian:  since when did bats become a tonner? what are some of his strength feats only (not utilizing outside factors etc etc) that's similar to cap? "
Supporting well over a ton of rubble (with the help of a steel bar, the weight was enough that it made the steel bar break)
Bending gun barrels
Being able to deflect automatic gunfire
Lifting a totem pole without good leverage that is pinning his leg to the ground, which was easily over  a ton
prying open and breaking killer crocs jaw (crocodiles have a bite force of 4000-5000 pounds per square inch)
Trapping a swat team by lifting a beam and putting it on top of a trap door, the whole swat team was unable to lift the same beam
#24 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

I just dont see bats winning on a spur of the moment fight like this where he has no info at all on his opponent

#25 Edited by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Chosen One said:

" @Tian said:

"Marvel Directory has Captain America max bench pressing 800lbs."
In a scan he benches (working out with) 1,100 pounds. "
And it's written that Batman can bench press as much too. 
 
@capall said:

" @Tian:  since when did bats become a tonner? what are some of his strength feats only (not utilizing outside factors etc etc) that's similar to cap? "

Both can kick down steel doors, both have broken reinforced chains, both can punch through brick walls with their bare fist. Both can bench press 800-1000 pounds or lift that much over their heads. 
Batman has ripped the rooftop off of cars. 
Batman has cracked bulletproof glass that is suppose to be able to withstand a bazooka. 
  
I have always remembered since the 90s that Captain America is only suppose to be the Perferct Human Being. Not a person that is at Metahuman abilities. Recently over the years they started to describe him as being like a Metahuman strength, and they fall back on the super serum as a reason. But they've been writing Batman to get stronger and stronger as well with just using the reason that he's at peak strength. So the question is... Is Captain America still described as the perfect human? or someone stronger than they perfect human? Let me just say that if Captain America is stronger than Batman, Batman isn't that far behind, while I assume Gambit is no where near Captain America's strength levels. 
#26 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" @vuviper:  so any human that is at the peak level due to training becomes a tonner? i'm accepting the fact that cap has been greatly enhanced due to the serum as well as training, not just by training only, it's not like cap doesn't train either right "
No I'm saying if they are both described as being a perfect human specimen and both have feats that are well above what normal human can do, why do you accept the feats of one but not the other
#27 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:
" @Chosen One said:
" @Tian said:
"Marvel Directory has Captain America max bench pressing 800lbs."
In a scan he benches (working out with) 1,100 pounds. "
And it's written that Batman can bench press as much too. 
 
@capall said:
" @Tian:  since when did bats become a tonner? what are some of his strength feats only (not utilizing outside factors etc etc) that's similar to cap? "
Both can kick down steel doors, both have broken reinforced chains, both can punch through brick walls with their bare fist. Both can bench press 800-1000 pounds or lift that much over their heads. Batman has ripped the rooftop off of cars. Batman has cracked bulletproof glass that is suppose to be able to withstand a bazooka.   I have always remembered since the 90s that Captain America is only suppose to be the Perferct Human Being. Not a person that is at Metahuman abilities. Recently over the years they started to describe him as being like a Metahuman strength, and they fall back on the super serum as a reason. But they've been writing Batman to get stronger and stronger as well with just using the reason that he's at peak strength. Let me just say that if Captain America is stronger than Batman, Batman isn't that far behind, while I assume Gambit is no where near Captain America's strength levels. "
If Bats can do all that then they have him labeled wrong
#28 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
" @Tian said:
" @Chosen One said:
" @Tian said:
"Marvel Directory has Captain America max bench pressing 800lbs."
In a scan he benches (working out with) 1,100 pounds. "
And it's written that Batman can bench press as much too. 
 
@capall said:
" @Tian:  since when did bats become a tonner? what are some of his strength feats only (not utilizing outside factors etc etc) that's similar to cap? "
Both can kick down steel doors, both have broken reinforced chains, both can punch through brick walls with their bare fist. Both can bench press 800-1000 pounds or lift that much over their heads. Batman has ripped the rooftop off of cars. Batman has cracked bulletproof glass that is suppose to be able to withstand a bazooka.   I have always remembered since the 90s that Captain America is only suppose to be the Perferct Human Being. Not a person that is at Metahuman abilities. Recently over the years they started to describe him as being like a Metahuman strength, and they fall back on the super serum as a reason. But they've been writing Batman to get stronger and stronger as well with just using the reason that he's at peak strength. Let me just say that if Captain America is stronger than Batman, Batman isn't that far behind, while I assume Gambit is no where near Captain America's strength levels. "
If Bats can do all that then they have him labeled wrong "
almost all human comic book characters perform feats that should be physically impossible for real humans.
#29 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

They would still have him mislabeled

#30 Edited by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock:  
If Captain America is suppose to be a Super Soldier and a Perfect Human Being, and if the writers stayed consistent within those rules. Then Batman is as strong as Captain America, and anything Captain America can do, then Batman in theory should be able to do as well.  If you're going to argue that Batman shouldn't be able to do those things, then neither should Captain America. People forget this and just assume that Captain America took the Super Serum and is suppose to be above Human Capabilities, when he really shouldn't be.
  
From Marvel.com:
 Steve Rogers was a scrawny fine arts student specializing in industrialization in the 1940's before America entered World War II. He attempted to enlist in the army only to be turned away due to his poor constitution. A U.S. officer offered Rogers an alternative way to serve his country by being a test subject in project, Operation: Rebirth, a top secret defense research project designed to create physically superior soldiers. Rogers accepted and after a rigorous physical and combat training and selection process was selected as the first test subject. He was given injections and oral ingestion of the formula dubbed the "Super Soldier Serum" developed by the scientist Dr. Abraham Erskine. Rogers was then exposed to a controlled burst of "Vita-Rays" that activated and stabilized the chemicals in his system. The process successfully altered his physiology from its frail state to the maximum of human efficiency, including greatly enhanced musculature and reflexes.  
  
  Powers
Captain America represented the pinnacle of human physical perfection. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but generally performed just below superhuman levels for most of his career. Captain America had a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he had metabolized had enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance
#31 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:
"And it's written that Batman can bench press as much too.
I was just commenting on the max bench press. And unless I am mistaken the handbook charts for strength are not based off of a actual bench press. But it is a max amount of weight they can lift completely over their head.
#32 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
" They would still have him mislabeled "
It's fiction, humans can do whatever you want them to.
#33 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

Im pretty sure Cap isnt Peak Human Anymore but i could be wrong (which would be a first lmfao)

#34 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
" Im pretty sure Cap isnt Peak Human Anymore but i could be wrong (which would be a first lmfao) "
To be honest he was never just 'peak' human. Even in the old days he was tossing around Nazis after being dog piled by them.
#35 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:
" @Sherlock:  If Captain America is suppose to be a Super Soldier and a Perfect Human Being, and if the writers stayed consistent within those rules. Then Batman is as strong as Captain America, and anything Captain America can do, then Batman in theory should be able to do as well. "
To me there is a difference between peak human, in which one could train and become. And a peak human potential. Which someone could not really achieve with just training alone. There is just so much more that the human body can achieve. Look at adrenaline pumped people who do extraordinary things. Cap is like that 24/7. Sad thing is there is not enough evidence to truly set Bats and Caps apart in physical attributes.
#36 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio
@vuviper:  
simply due to the fact that what enhances cap is due to the serum not just by training alone, i have no reason to belive that bats is equal to cap in strength department without any outside factor. Don't get me wrong i ain't a regular bats reader so maybe DC did give him some upgrade over the years that i may not be aware of i could be wrong but from what i know in the past cap has done or shown lot more with his strength than bats have
#37 Edited by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Chosen One: Then My understanding of Press was wrong, but either way he can press that much.  
 
@Chosen One
said:

" @Tian said:

" @Sherlock:  If Captain America is suppose to be a Super Soldier and a Perfect Human Being, and if the writers stayed consistent within those rules. Then Batman is as strong as Captain America, and anything Captain America can do, then Batman in theory should be able to do as well. "

To me there is a difference between peak human, in which one could train and become. And a peak human potential. Which someone could not really achieve with just training alone. There is just so much more that the human body can achieve. Look at adrenaline pumped people who do extraordinary things. Cap is like that 24/7. Sad thing is there is not enough evidence to truly set Bats and Caps apart in physical attribute 
Now it sounds like to me that you're reaching for something that isn't there. You're playing with words and semantics, that I'm sure that both writers of DC and MU don't care about. In both universes, it's believed that each respective character has reached perfection. 
 
Quite frankly if Captain America has reached peak human potential, then he's not as strong as the peak human potential of the people in DC. Karate Kid for example.
#38 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Andy's right. Adrenaline pumped people have lifted small cars before in real life. Batman and Captain America are characters that represent the upper limits of humanity as a whole. 
 
They are superhuman just because the world's finest gymnast couldn't also be the world's finest weight lifter, swimmmer, runner etc all at the same time. They are that and more.

#39 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

#1 Batman is stronger than Gambit, but he is nowhere near as agile or fast. 
#2 With powers on, and no PIS, Gambit stomps this.  Gambit will be nice about it.  He'll probably start with a few exploding projectiles just as a warning, and if Bats doesn't stop (and we know he won't), Gambit will have to make a few demonstrations...like if Bats goes to throw a smoke pellet or something from his belt gambit blows it up in his hand.  Then blows up the belt.  Then if Bats still doen't get the hint, then Remy may have to get ugly. 
 
This could just as easily be Batman's cape or armor.
 
Since he is no longer restricted to inorganic matter, and doesn't have to make physical contact...
 

And that's not even taking his powers as Death in to account.  Bats would have been beaten by Gambit with his old powers.  With his powers as they are now, this is a stomp.
#40 Posted by Red_Blade (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman
Gambit can't fight

#41 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:

"Now it sounds like to me that you're reaching for something that isn't there. You're playing with words and semantics, that I'm sure that both writers of DC and MU don't care about. "

These are quotes from Ed Brubaker.

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."


"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

#42 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
We strayed off course. I'm still saying Batman is stronger than Gambit. Unless you want to argue that Gambit is as strong or stronger than Captain America. But I'm sticking to my guns, Batman and Captain America are perfect, and since Captain America is stronger than Gambit, I'll take it so is Batman. 
 
A lot of sources say that Gambit doesn't even have superhuman strength, only superhuman agility and dexterity.
#43 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@yodagod: Unless I am mistaken it said classic versions of both. So Gambit should not be able to charge organic matter.
#44 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red_Blade said:
"Gambit can't fight "
Yet we have seen him stalemate Daredevil.
#45 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:

" @vuviper:  simply due to the fact that what enhances cap is due to the serum not just by training alone, i have no reason to belive that bats is equal to cap in strength department without any outside factor. Don't get me wrong i ain't a regular bats reader so maybe DC did give him some upgrade over the years that i may not be aware of i could be wrong but from what i know in the past cap has done or shown lot more with his strength than bats have "

Well I've listed some in my previous posts, if you want I can provide scans as well. 
 
@Chosen One said:

" @Tian said:

" @Sherlock:  If Captain America is suppose to be a Super Soldier and a Perfect Human Being, and if the writers stayed consistent within those rules. Then Batman is as strong as Captain America, and anything Captain America can do, then Batman in theory should be able to do as well. "

To me there is a difference between peak human, in which one could train and become. And a peak human potential. Which someone could not really achieve with just training alone. There is just so much more that the human body can achieve. Look at adrenaline pumped people who do extraordinary things. Cap is like that 24/7. Sad thing is there is not enough evidence to truly set Bats and Caps apart in physical attributes. "

It's all fiction to me, lol
 
@yodagod:

 #1 Batman is stronger than Gambit, but he is nowhere near as agile or fast.

as I said to Capall earlier
" I wouldn't say bat's isn't anywhere near...  "
#46 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Chosen One said:

" @Tian said:

"Now it sounds like to me that you're reaching for something that isn't there. You're playing with words and semantics, that I'm sure that both writers of DC and MU don't care about. "

These are quotes from Ed Brubaker.

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."


"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

"
Yes and they did show that a bit. Captain America NEVER has to train. Batman DOES have to train. But their Physical Abilities are still the same. 
Also Ed Brubaker is not the creator of Captain America, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby are. Perhaps Ed wants to display Captain America's strength more often to prove that he's not Batman, but that doesn't mean Batman isn't as strong. Batman is more tactful, Captain America is more of a charging the front type of guy.
#47 Edited by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio

  @yodagod:  
"Since he is no longer restricted to inorganic matter, and doesn't have to make physical contact." 
 
The rules state we're talking about classic Gambit. I assume that means he has to make physical contact and limited to inorganic matter, and he can't use his powers that would allow him to fly or heal himself either.

#48 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:
"Yes and they did show that a bit. Captain America NEVER has to train. "
But yet we see him training the most out of any Avenger, ever. Even being the one who trains them in how to fight and schedules training sessions. Not to mention the warm ups he has been shown to do in the mornings.
 
@Tian said:
"Also Ed Brubaker is not the creator of Captain America, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby are. "
No he is not, but he has written for both characters.

@Tian said:
"Batman is more tactful, Captain America is more of a charging the front type of guy. "
I don't know about that. Highly debatable.
#49 Posted by Chosen One (2123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tian said:
"The rules state we're talking about classic Gambit. I assume that means he has to make physical contact, and he can't use his powers that would allow him to fly or heal himself either. "
I stated this to him as well. However there is nothing stopping Gambit from charging Batmans armor or cape. Like the first scan he provided.
#50 Posted by Tian (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Chosen One:  
"But yet we see him training the most out of any Avenger, ever. Even being the one who trains them in how to fight and schedules training sessions. Not to mention the warm ups he has been shown to do in the mornings." 
He does it for recreation, he doesn't do it so that he can maintain his physique or get stronger. 
The Super Serum made him from a scrawny guy to a peak human condition guy, and the serum is constantly pumping through him. If he had to train, then what was the point of the serum? why not just use steroids?   
  
"No he is not, but he has written for both characters. " 
 And I take it as a guy that isn't the creator of both characters, won't maintain what is true for both characters. 
 
"I don't know about that. Highly debatable.    " 
 I don't see how... Guy with weapons, and equipments to take down most of the superpowered beings in his universe, who'll will use the shadows and play mind games on his opponents, and use fear as a weapon. 
  
As opposed to the guy in the bright Red,Blue, and White with a Shield, kicking the crap out of just about anything that he encounters.